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Why does the Fifth Symphony in c minor begin with a C major interval
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I have been told when composing the first thing is to establish the key. Beethoven's Fifth symphony in c minor starts with major third interval. "...-". I would expect a major key. What am I missing?
key
asked 7 hours ago
Big Steve
111
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I have been told when composing the first thing is to establish the key. Beethoven's Fifth symphony in c minor starts with major third interval. "...-". I would expect a major key. What am I missing?
key
asked 7 hours ago
Big Steve
111
5
You've been fooled if someone said it's a C major interval. It's a major interval, but both major and minor triads contain one of each. Here, it's the interval between the m3 and P5 of C minor - itself a major 3 - G and Eb.
– Tim
5 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
I have been told when composing the first thing is to establish the key. Beethoven's Fifth symphony in c minor starts with major third interval. "...-". I would expect a major key. What am I missing?
key
asked 7 hours ago
Big Steve
111
I have been told when composing the first thing is to establish the key. Beethoven's Fifth symphony in c minor starts with major third interval. "...-". I would expect a major key. What am I missing?
key
key
asked 7 hours ago
Big Steve
111
asked 7 hours ago
Big Steve
111
asked 7 hours ago
Big Steve
111
asked 7 hours ago
Big Steve
111
asked 7 hours ago
Big Steve
111
111
5
You've been fooled if someone said it's a C major interval. It's a major interval, but both major and minor triads contain one of each. Here, it's the interval between the m3 and P5 of C minor - itself a major 3 - G and Eb.
– Tim
5 hours ago
add a comment |Â
5
You've been fooled if someone said it's a C major interval. It's a major interval, but both major and minor triads contain one of each. Here, it's the interval between the m3 and P5 of C minor - itself a major 3 - G and Eb.
– Tim
5 hours ago
5
5
You've been fooled if someone said it's a C major interval. It's a major interval, but both major and minor triads contain one of each. Here, it's the interval between the m3 and P5 of C minor - itself a major 3 - G and Eb.
– Tim
5 hours ago
You've been fooled if someone said it's a C major interval. It's a major interval, but both major and minor triads contain one of each. Here, it's the interval between the m3 and P5 of C minor - itself a major 3 - G and Eb.
– Tim
5 hours ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
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up vote
6
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Music is an art, and although every art has its own logic, the artfulness comes to bear when a creator marshals that logic toward some more emotional end. You correctly identify the first melodic interval that sounds in this symphony as a major third, and it’s true that absent any other context that interval would suggest that the key is Eb major. But! Further developments in the musical texture soon clarify the fact that the governing key is, in fact, C minor, and it’s precisely that initial ambiguity that marks Beethoven’s artful use of the means of tonal music. In fact, it’s a pretty straightforward piece in that regard: it’s only a few measures before it becomes completely clear that you’ve heard the third and fifth of a minor scale rather than the first and third of a major scale, and so in that sense Beethoven is not diverging too far from the guideline that you’ve cited. The takeaway, I guess, is that music is the art of managing expectations. You can use those expectations that we all kind of share to create a particular implication of what is to follow, and then create surprise by recontextualizing those notes in a different tonal environment. I’m so used to that piece that I can’t help but hear the initial tones in terms of the eventual minor key, but it must be a beautiful thing to hear it for the first time and reckon with the surprise of what follows.
answered 6 hours ago
invitapriore
1333
Makes me think of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 12, that is in C minor and ends with a strong C major cord.
– Tommy
5 hours ago
Beethoven does something even more dramatic when he begins the Tempest sonata with a long, luxurious A major chord before revealing that it’s just the V chord of the d minor key. But I’m worried that the OP’s question reveals a more fundamental misunderstanding when they ask how a minor-key piece could begin with a major interval. It should be pointed out that major intervals are a perfectly normal part of minor keys.
– Pat Muchmore
4 hours ago
@Tommy - there was a time when this trick was common. It's called 'Tierce de Picardie'.
– Tim
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Well, you've been told wrong, haven't you! The first thing Beethoven does is establish one of the themes that he's going to develop in the piece. Development of what may have seemed a simple musical fragment is the basis of the 'classical' style that Beethoven epitomises.
In this case, Beethoven is delighting in being ambiguous. The first four notes of the 5th could be in Eb major. The next four notes do nothing to contradict this. But the next six firmly change the context to C minor. A bit of 'development' already! Clever, isn't it!
Maybe there's a more basic misapprehension in the original question though. It opens with a major third rooted on Eb, not a 'C major interval'. Not every interval in a minor key or scale is minor. A minor triad, for instance, is a major third on top of a minor third.
answered 59 mins ago
Laurence Payne
28.8k1451
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
6
down vote
Music is an art, and although every art has its own logic, the artfulness comes to bear when a creator marshals that logic toward some more emotional end. You correctly identify the first melodic interval that sounds in this symphony as a major third, and it’s true that absent any other context that interval would suggest that the key is Eb major. But! Further developments in the musical texture soon clarify the fact that the governing key is, in fact, C minor, and it’s precisely that initial ambiguity that marks Beethoven’s artful use of the means of tonal music. In fact, it’s a pretty straightforward piece in that regard: it’s only a few measures before it becomes completely clear that you’ve heard the third and fifth of a minor scale rather than the first and third of a major scale, and so in that sense Beethoven is not diverging too far from the guideline that you’ve cited. The takeaway, I guess, is that music is the art of managing expectations. You can use those expectations that we all kind of share to create a particular implication of what is to follow, and then create surprise by recontextualizing those notes in a different tonal environment. I’m so used to that piece that I can’t help but hear the initial tones in terms of the eventual minor key, but it must be a beautiful thing to hear it for the first time and reckon with the surprise of what follows.
answered 6 hours ago
invitapriore
1333
Makes me think of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 12, that is in C minor and ends with a strong C major cord.
– Tommy
5 hours ago
Beethoven does something even more dramatic when he begins the Tempest sonata with a long, luxurious A major chord before revealing that it’s just the V chord of the d minor key. But I’m worried that the OP’s question reveals a more fundamental misunderstanding when they ask how a minor-key piece could begin with a major interval. It should be pointed out that major intervals are a perfectly normal part of minor keys.
– Pat Muchmore
4 hours ago
@Tommy - there was a time when this trick was common. It's called 'Tierce de Picardie'.
– Tim
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
Music is an art, and although every art has its own logic, the artfulness comes to bear when a creator marshals that logic toward some more emotional end. You correctly identify the first melodic interval that sounds in this symphony as a major third, and it’s true that absent any other context that interval would suggest that the key is Eb major. But! Further developments in the musical texture soon clarify the fact that the governing key is, in fact, C minor, and it’s precisely that initial ambiguity that marks Beethoven’s artful use of the means of tonal music. In fact, it’s a pretty straightforward piece in that regard: it’s only a few measures before it becomes completely clear that you’ve heard the third and fifth of a minor scale rather than the first and third of a major scale, and so in that sense Beethoven is not diverging too far from the guideline that you’ve cited. The takeaway, I guess, is that music is the art of managing expectations. You can use those expectations that we all kind of share to create a particular implication of what is to follow, and then create surprise by recontextualizing those notes in a different tonal environment. I’m so used to that piece that I can’t help but hear the initial tones in terms of the eventual minor key, but it must be a beautiful thing to hear it for the first time and reckon with the surprise of what follows.
answered 6 hours ago
invitapriore
1333
Makes me think of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 12, that is in C minor and ends with a strong C major cord.
– Tommy
5 hours ago
Beethoven does something even more dramatic when he begins the Tempest sonata with a long, luxurious A major chord before revealing that it’s just the V chord of the d minor key. But I’m worried that the OP’s question reveals a more fundamental misunderstanding when they ask how a minor-key piece could begin with a major interval. It should be pointed out that major intervals are a perfectly normal part of minor keys.
– Pat Muchmore
4 hours ago
@Tommy - there was a time when this trick was common. It's called 'Tierce de Picardie'.
– Tim
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
up vote
6
down vote
Music is an art, and although every art has its own logic, the artfulness comes to bear when a creator marshals that logic toward some more emotional end. You correctly identify the first melodic interval that sounds in this symphony as a major third, and it’s true that absent any other context that interval would suggest that the key is Eb major. But! Further developments in the musical texture soon clarify the fact that the governing key is, in fact, C minor, and it’s precisely that initial ambiguity that marks Beethoven’s artful use of the means of tonal music. In fact, it’s a pretty straightforward piece in that regard: it’s only a few measures before it becomes completely clear that you’ve heard the third and fifth of a minor scale rather than the first and third of a major scale, and so in that sense Beethoven is not diverging too far from the guideline that you’ve cited. The takeaway, I guess, is that music is the art of managing expectations. You can use those expectations that we all kind of share to create a particular implication of what is to follow, and then create surprise by recontextualizing those notes in a different tonal environment. I’m so used to that piece that I can’t help but hear the initial tones in terms of the eventual minor key, but it must be a beautiful thing to hear it for the first time and reckon with the surprise of what follows.
answered 6 hours ago
invitapriore
1333
Music is an art, and although every art has its own logic, the artfulness comes to bear when a creator marshals that logic toward some more emotional end. You correctly identify the first melodic interval that sounds in this symphony as a major third, and it’s true that absent any other context that interval would suggest that the key is Eb major. But! Further developments in the musical texture soon clarify the fact that the governing key is, in fact, C minor, and it’s precisely that initial ambiguity that marks Beethoven’s artful use of the means of tonal music. In fact, it’s a pretty straightforward piece in that regard: it’s only a few measures before it becomes completely clear that you’ve heard the third and fifth of a minor scale rather than the first and third of a major scale, and so in that sense Beethoven is not diverging too far from the guideline that you’ve cited. The takeaway, I guess, is that music is the art of managing expectations. You can use those expectations that we all kind of share to create a particular implication of what is to follow, and then create surprise by recontextualizing those notes in a different tonal environment. I’m so used to that piece that I can’t help but hear the initial tones in terms of the eventual minor key, but it must be a beautiful thing to hear it for the first time and reckon with the surprise of what follows.
answered 6 hours ago
invitapriore
1333
answered 6 hours ago
invitapriore
1333
answered 6 hours ago
invitapriore
1333
answered 6 hours ago
invitapriore
1333
1333
Makes me think of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 12, that is in C minor and ends with a strong C major cord.
– Tommy
5 hours ago
Beethoven does something even more dramatic when he begins the Tempest sonata with a long, luxurious A major chord before revealing that it’s just the V chord of the d minor key. But I’m worried that the OP’s question reveals a more fundamental misunderstanding when they ask how a minor-key piece could begin with a major interval. It should be pointed out that major intervals are a perfectly normal part of minor keys.
– Pat Muchmore
4 hours ago
@Tommy - there was a time when this trick was common. It's called 'Tierce de Picardie'.
– Tim
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
Makes me think of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 12, that is in C minor and ends with a strong C major cord.
– Tommy
5 hours ago
Beethoven does something even more dramatic when he begins the Tempest sonata with a long, luxurious A major chord before revealing that it’s just the V chord of the d minor key. But I’m worried that the OP’s question reveals a more fundamental misunderstanding when they ask how a minor-key piece could begin with a major interval. It should be pointed out that major intervals are a perfectly normal part of minor keys.
– Pat Muchmore
4 hours ago
@Tommy - there was a time when this trick was common. It's called 'Tierce de Picardie'.
– Tim
1 hour ago
Makes me think of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 12, that is in C minor and ends with a strong C major cord.
– Tommy
5 hours ago
Makes me think of Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 12, that is in C minor and ends with a strong C major cord.
– Tommy
5 hours ago
Beethoven does something even more dramatic when he begins the Tempest sonata with a long, luxurious A major chord before revealing that it’s just the V chord of the d minor key. But I’m worried that the OP’s question reveals a more fundamental misunderstanding when they ask how a minor-key piece could begin with a major interval. It should be pointed out that major intervals are a perfectly normal part of minor keys.
– Pat Muchmore
4 hours ago
Beethoven does something even more dramatic when he begins the Tempest sonata with a long, luxurious A major chord before revealing that it’s just the V chord of the d minor key. But I’m worried that the OP’s question reveals a more fundamental misunderstanding when they ask how a minor-key piece could begin with a major interval. It should be pointed out that major intervals are a perfectly normal part of minor keys.
– Pat Muchmore
4 hours ago
@Tommy - there was a time when this trick was common. It's called 'Tierce de Picardie'.
– Tim
1 hour ago
@Tommy - there was a time when this trick was common. It's called 'Tierce de Picardie'.
– Tim
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Well, you've been told wrong, haven't you! The first thing Beethoven does is establish one of the themes that he's going to develop in the piece. Development of what may have seemed a simple musical fragment is the basis of the 'classical' style that Beethoven epitomises.
In this case, Beethoven is delighting in being ambiguous. The first four notes of the 5th could be in Eb major. The next four notes do nothing to contradict this. But the next six firmly change the context to C minor. A bit of 'development' already! Clever, isn't it!
Maybe there's a more basic misapprehension in the original question though. It opens with a major third rooted on Eb, not a 'C major interval'. Not every interval in a minor key or scale is minor. A minor triad, for instance, is a major third on top of a minor third.
answered 59 mins ago
Laurence Payne
28.8k1451
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Well, you've been told wrong, haven't you! The first thing Beethoven does is establish one of the themes that he's going to develop in the piece. Development of what may have seemed a simple musical fragment is the basis of the 'classical' style that Beethoven epitomises.
In this case, Beethoven is delighting in being ambiguous. The first four notes of the 5th could be in Eb major. The next four notes do nothing to contradict this. But the next six firmly change the context to C minor. A bit of 'development' already! Clever, isn't it!
Maybe there's a more basic misapprehension in the original question though. It opens with a major third rooted on Eb, not a 'C major interval'. Not every interval in a minor key or scale is minor. A minor triad, for instance, is a major third on top of a minor third.
answered 59 mins ago
Laurence Payne
28.8k1451
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
Well, you've been told wrong, haven't you! The first thing Beethoven does is establish one of the themes that he's going to develop in the piece. Development of what may have seemed a simple musical fragment is the basis of the 'classical' style that Beethoven epitomises.
In this case, Beethoven is delighting in being ambiguous. The first four notes of the 5th could be in Eb major. The next four notes do nothing to contradict this. But the next six firmly change the context to C minor. A bit of 'development' already! Clever, isn't it!
Maybe there's a more basic misapprehension in the original question though. It opens with a major third rooted on Eb, not a 'C major interval'. Not every interval in a minor key or scale is minor. A minor triad, for instance, is a major third on top of a minor third.
answered 59 mins ago
Laurence Payne
28.8k1451
Well, you've been told wrong, haven't you! The first thing Beethoven does is establish one of the themes that he's going to develop in the piece. Development of what may have seemed a simple musical fragment is the basis of the 'classical' style that Beethoven epitomises.
In this case, Beethoven is delighting in being ambiguous. The first four notes of the 5th could be in Eb major. The next four notes do nothing to contradict this. But the next six firmly change the context to C minor. A bit of 'development' already! Clever, isn't it!
Maybe there's a more basic misapprehension in the original question though. It opens with a major third rooted on Eb, not a 'C major interval'. Not every interval in a minor key or scale is minor. A minor triad, for instance, is a major third on top of a minor third.
answered 59 mins ago
Laurence Payne
28.8k1451
edited 42 mins ago
answered 59 mins ago
Laurence Payne
28.8k1451
answered 59 mins ago
Laurence Payne
28.8k1451
answered 59 mins ago
Laurence Payne
28.8k1451
28.8k1451
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
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5
You've been fooled if someone said it's a C major interval. It's a major interval, but both major and minor triads contain one of each. Here, it's the interval between the m3 and P5 of C minor - itself a major 3 - G and Eb.
– Tim
5 hours ago