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Why do top Indian Math grad school students leave for the US/UK?
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I am currently a senior year student at Hansraj College, University of Delhi. I have completed my 2-month summer internship at IISc Bangalore recently. During my stay, I got to interact with a lot of Pure Mathematics Ph.D. students. I have come to know lately that many BS and MS students leave even the topmost schools like IISc, IISER's, TIFR etc and go for Ph.D. in pure Mathematics abroad.
Although the standard of research in pure Maths is pretty good in India.
See this post here
I have the following questions and some associated assumptions/facts:
Question 1. So, why do these top students leave these exceptionally good schools that are almost at par with the elite US universities for a Ph.D. in Pure Maths?
Assumption 1. Since they were already a part of the school, it is unlikely that the small department size is a factor behind this. However, unlike US schools, TA's are not common in India.
Assumption 2. The recent pay increase should have improved the financial situation as well.
Question 2. What is something that Indian grad schools lack when it comes to theoretical Mathematics or in general that drives students out of India?
I am going for a Ph.D. soon, so I think this is something I should know.
Thank you.
phd research-process graduate-school mathematics india
asked 8 hours ago
yasir
1153
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
I am currently a senior year student at Hansraj College, University of Delhi. I have completed my 2-month summer internship at IISc Bangalore recently. During my stay, I got to interact with a lot of Pure Mathematics Ph.D. students. I have come to know lately that many BS and MS students leave even the topmost schools like IISc, IISER's, TIFR etc and go for Ph.D. in pure Mathematics abroad.
Although the standard of research in pure Maths is pretty good in India.
See this post here
I have the following questions and some associated assumptions/facts:
Question 1. So, why do these top students leave these exceptionally good schools that are almost at par with the elite US universities for a Ph.D. in Pure Maths?
Assumption 1. Since they were already a part of the school, it is unlikely that the small department size is a factor behind this. However, unlike US schools, TA's are not common in India.
Assumption 2. The recent pay increase should have improved the financial situation as well.
Question 2. What is something that Indian grad schools lack when it comes to theoretical Mathematics or in general that drives students out of India?
I am going for a Ph.D. soon, so I think this is something I should know.
Thank you.
phd research-process graduate-school mathematics india
asked 8 hours ago
yasir
1153
why the downvote?
– yasir
8 hours ago
3
Migration from India to the US/UK is not specific to math PhD students and I imagine the reasons are also not specific.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
@Thomas Well in other fields, I can understand, the first world has better labs, facilities, infrastructure etc. But pure mathematics is immune to these factors. What causes theoretical mathematicians to leave these exceptionally good schools is beyond my comprehension.
– yasir
6 hours ago
2
Prestige and international name recognition matter in academia. No one looks to universities in India and allows them the same prestige internationally as Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, Oxford, etc.
– Vladhagen
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
I am currently a senior year student at Hansraj College, University of Delhi. I have completed my 2-month summer internship at IISc Bangalore recently. During my stay, I got to interact with a lot of Pure Mathematics Ph.D. students. I have come to know lately that many BS and MS students leave even the topmost schools like IISc, IISER's, TIFR etc and go for Ph.D. in pure Mathematics abroad.
Although the standard of research in pure Maths is pretty good in India.
See this post here
I have the following questions and some associated assumptions/facts:
Question 1. So, why do these top students leave these exceptionally good schools that are almost at par with the elite US universities for a Ph.D. in Pure Maths?
Assumption 1. Since they were already a part of the school, it is unlikely that the small department size is a factor behind this. However, unlike US schools, TA's are not common in India.
Assumption 2. The recent pay increase should have improved the financial situation as well.
Question 2. What is something that Indian grad schools lack when it comes to theoretical Mathematics or in general that drives students out of India?
I am going for a Ph.D. soon, so I think this is something I should know.
Thank you.
phd research-process graduate-school mathematics india
asked 8 hours ago
yasir
1153
I am currently a senior year student at Hansraj College, University of Delhi. I have completed my 2-month summer internship at IISc Bangalore recently. During my stay, I got to interact with a lot of Pure Mathematics Ph.D. students. I have come to know lately that many BS and MS students leave even the topmost schools like IISc, IISER's, TIFR etc and go for Ph.D. in pure Mathematics abroad.
Although the standard of research in pure Maths is pretty good in India.
See this post here
I have the following questions and some associated assumptions/facts:
Question 1. So, why do these top students leave these exceptionally good schools that are almost at par with the elite US universities for a Ph.D. in Pure Maths?
Assumption 1. Since they were already a part of the school, it is unlikely that the small department size is a factor behind this. However, unlike US schools, TA's are not common in India.
Assumption 2. The recent pay increase should have improved the financial situation as well.
Question 2. What is something that Indian grad schools lack when it comes to theoretical Mathematics or in general that drives students out of India?
I am going for a Ph.D. soon, so I think this is something I should know.
Thank you.
phd research-process graduate-school mathematics india
phd research-process graduate-school mathematics india
asked 8 hours ago
yasir
1153
asked 8 hours ago
yasir
1153
edited 7 hours ago
asked 8 hours ago
yasir
1153
asked 8 hours ago
yasir
1153
asked 8 hours ago
yasir
1153
1153
why the downvote?
– yasir
8 hours ago
3
Migration from India to the US/UK is not specific to math PhD students and I imagine the reasons are also not specific.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
@Thomas Well in other fields, I can understand, the first world has better labs, facilities, infrastructure etc. But pure mathematics is immune to these factors. What causes theoretical mathematicians to leave these exceptionally good schools is beyond my comprehension.
– yasir
6 hours ago
2
Prestige and international name recognition matter in academia. No one looks to universities in India and allows them the same prestige internationally as Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, Oxford, etc.
– Vladhagen
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
why the downvote?
– yasir
8 hours ago
3
Migration from India to the US/UK is not specific to math PhD students and I imagine the reasons are also not specific.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
@Thomas Well in other fields, I can understand, the first world has better labs, facilities, infrastructure etc. But pure mathematics is immune to these factors. What causes theoretical mathematicians to leave these exceptionally good schools is beyond my comprehension.
– yasir
6 hours ago
2
Prestige and international name recognition matter in academia. No one looks to universities in India and allows them the same prestige internationally as Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, Oxford, etc.
– Vladhagen
3 hours ago
why the downvote?
– yasir
8 hours ago
why the downvote?
– yasir
8 hours ago
3
3
Migration from India to the US/UK is not specific to math PhD students and I imagine the reasons are also not specific.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
Migration from India to the US/UK is not specific to math PhD students and I imagine the reasons are also not specific.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
@Thomas Well in other fields, I can understand, the first world has better labs, facilities, infrastructure etc. But pure mathematics is immune to these factors. What causes theoretical mathematicians to leave these exceptionally good schools is beyond my comprehension.
– yasir
6 hours ago
@Thomas Well in other fields, I can understand, the first world has better labs, facilities, infrastructure etc. But pure mathematics is immune to these factors. What causes theoretical mathematicians to leave these exceptionally good schools is beyond my comprehension.
– yasir
6 hours ago
2
2
Prestige and international name recognition matter in academia. No one looks to universities in India and allows them the same prestige internationally as Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, Oxford, etc.
– Vladhagen
3 hours ago
Prestige and international name recognition matter in academia. No one looks to universities in India and allows them the same prestige internationally as Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, Oxford, etc.
– Vladhagen
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
Disclaimer: I'm European student at decent Math PhD program in the US.
Sorry, but it seems that I'm going to disillusion you...
Question 1. So, why do these top students leave these exceptionally
good schools that are at par with the elite US universities for a
Ph.D. in Pure Maths?
Although I don't doubt that India have a couple of decent universities with relatively strong mathematics department, they are by no means "at par with the elite US universities". If they really were, I would expect crowds of applicants both from prospective grad students and faculty from Europe and North America to study/work there, but in fact there is quite opposite trend. You have mentioned "topmost schools like IISc, IISER's, TIFR", but without prior web searching I have absolutely no idea what all these abbreviations mean. The same true for overall level of Indian born mathematicians -- they are simply not on par with US, France, Russia and UK in math, just check recent and overall numbers of Fields medalists and ICM speakers. Please do not take it like something offensive, but realizing that is essentially an answer to your question.
Question 2. What is something that Indian grad schools lack when it
comes to theoretical Mathematics or in general that drives students
out of India?
Just in my opinion, they lack
- Transferable degree recognition and world renowned top notch researchers like I tried to elaborate above, that is crucial for graduate school, because grad school is essentially about research.
- Job prospects after graduation. It goes without saying that Europe and especially North America region (US + Canada) have more attractive job market both in terms of available positions, research prospects and salary than India. In general relocating to grad school is easier than relocating to postdoc or faculty position, this is why Indian students willing to have a shot at American or European job market trying to get in local grad schools.
answered 7 hours ago
Hasek
284111
Although I appreciate your criticism, I feel some ignorance on your part. The sheer fact that IISc is unheard for you speaks for itself. It is the top research institute of India numbered 11 in terms of citations all over the world. I put this question just to look for the gaps Indian grad schools have and your second answer is spot on. And the fact about field medalists is also true. There has been no Indian recepient of Fields medal till date.
– yasir
7 hours ago
1
There are aspects of this answer that are probably correct, but overall it seems to jump to conclusions (no references) and be a unnecessarily harsh.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
2
I too have never heard of any of the "top tier" Indian universities. Had to Google search for meanings.
– Vladhagen
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Though I have more knowledge of the Physics scene, the most important thing for research is not "physical" (facilities, salary etc), but having access to a strong, open, inclusive, active and sufficiently numbered community of grad students, post docs, professors, researchers and visitors. You learn from people around you.
In India, this is definitely not comparable to the top in the world. Do you know that there have been times when TIFR has not taken a single grad student for Math?(Was informed by existing math grad students on these facts). What does this say? How do you get a community then?
answered 5 hours ago
DS R
32414
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
Disclaimer: I'm European student at decent Math PhD program in the US.
Sorry, but it seems that I'm going to disillusion you...
Question 1. So, why do these top students leave these exceptionally
good schools that are at par with the elite US universities for a
Ph.D. in Pure Maths?
Although I don't doubt that India have a couple of decent universities with relatively strong mathematics department, they are by no means "at par with the elite US universities". If they really were, I would expect crowds of applicants both from prospective grad students and faculty from Europe and North America to study/work there, but in fact there is quite opposite trend. You have mentioned "topmost schools like IISc, IISER's, TIFR", but without prior web searching I have absolutely no idea what all these abbreviations mean. The same true for overall level of Indian born mathematicians -- they are simply not on par with US, France, Russia and UK in math, just check recent and overall numbers of Fields medalists and ICM speakers. Please do not take it like something offensive, but realizing that is essentially an answer to your question.
Question 2. What is something that Indian grad schools lack when it
comes to theoretical Mathematics or in general that drives students
out of India?
Just in my opinion, they lack
- Transferable degree recognition and world renowned top notch researchers like I tried to elaborate above, that is crucial for graduate school, because grad school is essentially about research.
- Job prospects after graduation. It goes without saying that Europe and especially North America region (US + Canada) have more attractive job market both in terms of available positions, research prospects and salary than India. In general relocating to grad school is easier than relocating to postdoc or faculty position, this is why Indian students willing to have a shot at American or European job market trying to get in local grad schools.
answered 7 hours ago
Hasek
284111
Although I appreciate your criticism, I feel some ignorance on your part. The sheer fact that IISc is unheard for you speaks for itself. It is the top research institute of India numbered 11 in terms of citations all over the world. I put this question just to look for the gaps Indian grad schools have and your second answer is spot on. And the fact about field medalists is also true. There has been no Indian recepient of Fields medal till date.
– yasir
7 hours ago
1
There are aspects of this answer that are probably correct, but overall it seems to jump to conclusions (no references) and be a unnecessarily harsh.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
2
I too have never heard of any of the "top tier" Indian universities. Had to Google search for meanings.
– Vladhagen
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
Disclaimer: I'm European student at decent Math PhD program in the US.
Sorry, but it seems that I'm going to disillusion you...
Question 1. So, why do these top students leave these exceptionally
good schools that are at par with the elite US universities for a
Ph.D. in Pure Maths?
Although I don't doubt that India have a couple of decent universities with relatively strong mathematics department, they are by no means "at par with the elite US universities". If they really were, I would expect crowds of applicants both from prospective grad students and faculty from Europe and North America to study/work there, but in fact there is quite opposite trend. You have mentioned "topmost schools like IISc, IISER's, TIFR", but without prior web searching I have absolutely no idea what all these abbreviations mean. The same true for overall level of Indian born mathematicians -- they are simply not on par with US, France, Russia and UK in math, just check recent and overall numbers of Fields medalists and ICM speakers. Please do not take it like something offensive, but realizing that is essentially an answer to your question.
Question 2. What is something that Indian grad schools lack when it
comes to theoretical Mathematics or in general that drives students
out of India?
Just in my opinion, they lack
- Transferable degree recognition and world renowned top notch researchers like I tried to elaborate above, that is crucial for graduate school, because grad school is essentially about research.
- Job prospects after graduation. It goes without saying that Europe and especially North America region (US + Canada) have more attractive job market both in terms of available positions, research prospects and salary than India. In general relocating to grad school is easier than relocating to postdoc or faculty position, this is why Indian students willing to have a shot at American or European job market trying to get in local grad schools.
answered 7 hours ago
Hasek
284111
Although I appreciate your criticism, I feel some ignorance on your part. The sheer fact that IISc is unheard for you speaks for itself. It is the top research institute of India numbered 11 in terms of citations all over the world. I put this question just to look for the gaps Indian grad schools have and your second answer is spot on. And the fact about field medalists is also true. There has been no Indian recepient of Fields medal till date.
– yasir
7 hours ago
1
There are aspects of this answer that are probably correct, but overall it seems to jump to conclusions (no references) and be a unnecessarily harsh.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
2
I too have never heard of any of the "top tier" Indian universities. Had to Google search for meanings.
– Vladhagen
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
Disclaimer: I'm European student at decent Math PhD program in the US.
Sorry, but it seems that I'm going to disillusion you...
Question 1. So, why do these top students leave these exceptionally
good schools that are at par with the elite US universities for a
Ph.D. in Pure Maths?
Although I don't doubt that India have a couple of decent universities with relatively strong mathematics department, they are by no means "at par with the elite US universities". If they really were, I would expect crowds of applicants both from prospective grad students and faculty from Europe and North America to study/work there, but in fact there is quite opposite trend. You have mentioned "topmost schools like IISc, IISER's, TIFR", but without prior web searching I have absolutely no idea what all these abbreviations mean. The same true for overall level of Indian born mathematicians -- they are simply not on par with US, France, Russia and UK in math, just check recent and overall numbers of Fields medalists and ICM speakers. Please do not take it like something offensive, but realizing that is essentially an answer to your question.
Question 2. What is something that Indian grad schools lack when it
comes to theoretical Mathematics or in general that drives students
out of India?
Just in my opinion, they lack
- Transferable degree recognition and world renowned top notch researchers like I tried to elaborate above, that is crucial for graduate school, because grad school is essentially about research.
- Job prospects after graduation. It goes without saying that Europe and especially North America region (US + Canada) have more attractive job market both in terms of available positions, research prospects and salary than India. In general relocating to grad school is easier than relocating to postdoc or faculty position, this is why Indian students willing to have a shot at American or European job market trying to get in local grad schools.
answered 7 hours ago
Hasek
284111
Disclaimer: I'm European student at decent Math PhD program in the US.
Sorry, but it seems that I'm going to disillusion you...
Question 1. So, why do these top students leave these exceptionally
good schools that are at par with the elite US universities for a
Ph.D. in Pure Maths?
Although I don't doubt that India have a couple of decent universities with relatively strong mathematics department, they are by no means "at par with the elite US universities". If they really were, I would expect crowds of applicants both from prospective grad students and faculty from Europe and North America to study/work there, but in fact there is quite opposite trend. You have mentioned "topmost schools like IISc, IISER's, TIFR", but without prior web searching I have absolutely no idea what all these abbreviations mean. The same true for overall level of Indian born mathematicians -- they are simply not on par with US, France, Russia and UK in math, just check recent and overall numbers of Fields medalists and ICM speakers. Please do not take it like something offensive, but realizing that is essentially an answer to your question.
Question 2. What is something that Indian grad schools lack when it
comes to theoretical Mathematics or in general that drives students
out of India?
Just in my opinion, they lack
- Transferable degree recognition and world renowned top notch researchers like I tried to elaborate above, that is crucial for graduate school, because grad school is essentially about research.
- Job prospects after graduation. It goes without saying that Europe and especially North America region (US + Canada) have more attractive job market both in terms of available positions, research prospects and salary than India. In general relocating to grad school is easier than relocating to postdoc or faculty position, this is why Indian students willing to have a shot at American or European job market trying to get in local grad schools.
answered 7 hours ago
Hasek
284111
answered 7 hours ago
Hasek
284111
answered 7 hours ago
Hasek
284111
answered 7 hours ago
Hasek
284111
284111
Although I appreciate your criticism, I feel some ignorance on your part. The sheer fact that IISc is unheard for you speaks for itself. It is the top research institute of India numbered 11 in terms of citations all over the world. I put this question just to look for the gaps Indian grad schools have and your second answer is spot on. And the fact about field medalists is also true. There has been no Indian recepient of Fields medal till date.
– yasir
7 hours ago
1
There are aspects of this answer that are probably correct, but overall it seems to jump to conclusions (no references) and be a unnecessarily harsh.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
2
I too have never heard of any of the "top tier" Indian universities. Had to Google search for meanings.
– Vladhagen
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
Although I appreciate your criticism, I feel some ignorance on your part. The sheer fact that IISc is unheard for you speaks for itself. It is the top research institute of India numbered 11 in terms of citations all over the world. I put this question just to look for the gaps Indian grad schools have and your second answer is spot on. And the fact about field medalists is also true. There has been no Indian recepient of Fields medal till date.
– yasir
7 hours ago
1
There are aspects of this answer that are probably correct, but overall it seems to jump to conclusions (no references) and be a unnecessarily harsh.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
2
I too have never heard of any of the "top tier" Indian universities. Had to Google search for meanings.
– Vladhagen
3 hours ago
Although I appreciate your criticism, I feel some ignorance on your part. The sheer fact that IISc is unheard for you speaks for itself. It is the top research institute of India numbered 11 in terms of citations all over the world. I put this question just to look for the gaps Indian grad schools have and your second answer is spot on. And the fact about field medalists is also true. There has been no Indian recepient of Fields medal till date.
– yasir
7 hours ago
Although I appreciate your criticism, I feel some ignorance on your part. The sheer fact that IISc is unheard for you speaks for itself. It is the top research institute of India numbered 11 in terms of citations all over the world. I put this question just to look for the gaps Indian grad schools have and your second answer is spot on. And the fact about field medalists is also true. There has been no Indian recepient of Fields medal till date.
– yasir
7 hours ago
1
1
There are aspects of this answer that are probably correct, but overall it seems to jump to conclusions (no references) and be a unnecessarily harsh.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
There are aspects of this answer that are probably correct, but overall it seems to jump to conclusions (no references) and be a unnecessarily harsh.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
2
2
I too have never heard of any of the "top tier" Indian universities. Had to Google search for meanings.
– Vladhagen
3 hours ago
I too have never heard of any of the "top tier" Indian universities. Had to Google search for meanings.
– Vladhagen
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Though I have more knowledge of the Physics scene, the most important thing for research is not "physical" (facilities, salary etc), but having access to a strong, open, inclusive, active and sufficiently numbered community of grad students, post docs, professors, researchers and visitors. You learn from people around you.
In India, this is definitely not comparable to the top in the world. Do you know that there have been times when TIFR has not taken a single grad student for Math?(Was informed by existing math grad students on these facts). What does this say? How do you get a community then?
answered 5 hours ago
DS R
32414
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Though I have more knowledge of the Physics scene, the most important thing for research is not "physical" (facilities, salary etc), but having access to a strong, open, inclusive, active and sufficiently numbered community of grad students, post docs, professors, researchers and visitors. You learn from people around you.
In India, this is definitely not comparable to the top in the world. Do you know that there have been times when TIFR has not taken a single grad student for Math?(Was informed by existing math grad students on these facts). What does this say? How do you get a community then?
answered 5 hours ago
DS R
32414
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Though I have more knowledge of the Physics scene, the most important thing for research is not "physical" (facilities, salary etc), but having access to a strong, open, inclusive, active and sufficiently numbered community of grad students, post docs, professors, researchers and visitors. You learn from people around you.
In India, this is definitely not comparable to the top in the world. Do you know that there have been times when TIFR has not taken a single grad student for Math?(Was informed by existing math grad students on these facts). What does this say? How do you get a community then?
answered 5 hours ago
DS R
32414
Though I have more knowledge of the Physics scene, the most important thing for research is not "physical" (facilities, salary etc), but having access to a strong, open, inclusive, active and sufficiently numbered community of grad students, post docs, professors, researchers and visitors. You learn from people around you.
In India, this is definitely not comparable to the top in the world. Do you know that there have been times when TIFR has not taken a single grad student for Math?(Was informed by existing math grad students on these facts). What does this say? How do you get a community then?
answered 5 hours ago
DS R
32414
answered 5 hours ago
DS R
32414
answered 5 hours ago
DS R
32414
answered 5 hours ago
DS R
32414
32414
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
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why the downvote?
– yasir
8 hours ago
3
Migration from India to the US/UK is not specific to math PhD students and I imagine the reasons are also not specific.
– Thomas
6 hours ago
@Thomas Well in other fields, I can understand, the first world has better labs, facilities, infrastructure etc. But pure mathematics is immune to these factors. What causes theoretical mathematicians to leave these exceptionally good schools is beyond my comprehension.
– yasir
6 hours ago
2
Prestige and international name recognition matter in academia. No one looks to universities in India and allows them the same prestige internationally as Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, Oxford, etc.
– Vladhagen
3 hours ago