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Question

Context: We are living in a Germany and have a small child (15 months) who will go to a public kindergarten at the age of 24 months.

Problem: In our region, all public funded kindergartens also have a denomination, typically catholic. All kindergartens inform the children of god, will sing religious songs, hold festivities, and may even preach with them. As an atheist, I find this abhorrent and deeply offensive, but there is not much choice - it's one of these kindergartens or no child care at all.

So how can I help my child to understand that most of this is, at best, just a funny story without relevance?
I want him to be able to make a conscious choice when he is able to - but I do NOT want him to believe simply because he has to ingest this at this impressionable age.

On the other hand, I fear negative consequences for him if I denounce this too openly and he says "Daddy says your god is just your big imaginary friend and not real" at the kindergarten.

Comments are not for extended discussion or critique; this conversation has been moved to chat. — 11 mins ago
You can also see answers to this question here: parenting.stackexchange.com/q/18898/9327 — 3 mins ago

CÃ…Â“ur 1033 · Answer 1 · 2018-11-05 12:09:07Z

Well, I would first try not to indoctrinate him myself. If you want him to make a conscious choice, you probably should be very careful with your reactions.

I'm myself agnostic but coming from a Christian culture. My 6 year old girl goes into a non-confessional school but yet manages to talk to me about Jesus and so (we're in Belgium, so a country that is traditionally rather Christian). I try to be careful myself not to tell her things like "this is just a funny story". When asked about religion(s), Jesus, and so on I try to be as neutral as possible with speeches like:

A lot of people think there is a god, some think there are many gods, some others believe there is no god at all, and some other just don't know. Daddy is part of these people who don't know.

I'm also very keen on extending some explanations about who Jesus is for the Christians and so on, within the limit of my own knowledge. I'm quite sure in the future if more questions arise I will invite her to look for the answers herself.
Now I must admit this neutral position might be harder to hold when your kid is constantly exposed to things like preachings, but I consider it very important to really let her the free choice of her own convictions, and even to change it as she evolves.

As a side remark, I must admit I don't know the German situation at all, but I'm really surprised by what you describe and the impossibility to find a non-confessional kindergarten.

Laurent, you are porbably a better father then I am - as a radical atheist and relativly plain spoken person I will find it probably impossible not to tell my son my opinion. Kindergartens in germany are a sad story - there are too few, and they are often expensive (500 euros ore more per month) and they are traditionally attached to a confession, even if the city pays like 99% of the costs. This is different in the bigger cities, but where I live there are like 30 kindergartens with confessions and 20 without, but the latter are not easily reachable or have lacking hours (like no fridays.) — 6 hours ago
@ChristianSauer This might differ depending on the exact location. In my region the fee is based on your income and about 100-150Ã¢Â‚Â¬ per months when the child is at least 3 years old. Double the amount for an age below 3. But what I find rather disturbing is declaring yourself a radical atheist. Radicality is something you should avoid in any case, preaching about atheism is in no way different than preaching about a religion. Just the viewpoint is different. I say this as an atheist myself. — 6 hours ago
@ChristianSauer Expensive? 500 euro per month is at the lower end of what they cost in the Czech Republic. With less than 2/3 of your (german) net household income. — 5 hours ago
@ChristianSauer > Leaving the "good father/bad father" discussion aside (I don't think there's any scale to evaluate parenting), I actually have no issue expressing my (sometimes strong) opinions to my kid or anyone else. I just try to always mention this is an opinion, not "the truth". Ans this for topics like religion, politics, and so on. That said I can imagine it's easier to do this as an agnostic than an atheist or believer of any kind, and it can sometimes be very challenging anyway, but that's also part of parenting: you get the chance to become better yourself :-) — 5 hours ago
Especially in the more rural areas you will have a problem finding a non confessional one because nothing much changes there, and there have always been those and not much else needed, and if then it might be just an hour or two extra per day you need to spend driving around. Also since it is now guaranteed by law to get a place, places got a scarce resource and you might get turned down by many more favorable places. — 4 hours ago

Peter A. Schneider 57429 · Answer 2 · 2018-11-05 10:54:21Z

As a 54 year old German I just had "Religion" as a normal subject in our public elementary school. I guess my parents could technically have let me skip these one or two hours per week, but nobody did that back then, and there was no non-religious alternative like "Ethics" or such. Of course the lessons were about Christian religion. I remember them fondly, we had a friendly teacher who liked children. We listend to stories about Jesus and painted pictures about them.

The important thing is, it did not indoctrinate me. I think the parents are much more important for mental formation than kindergarten, even if the kids seem to spend more waking hours there.

I remember vividly though how I developed a firm stance of atheism during my teen years; at school we were a group of friends who debated all kinds of deep questions, sometimes in the Religion or Ethics lessons and sometimes in private. Those were formative years.

So my advice, apparently the same as others' here, would be to support your child's curiosity, openmindedness and appreciation of meaningful debate, simply by example and by answering all questions as sincerely and deep as you can.

For me personally, religious education in school was very different from what kindergarten would have been. My parents found a nondenominational kindergarten for me but I actually remember their search, and in retrospect (and from what my parents told me), denominational kindergartens were quite a bit more extreme than religion classes in school, and would have been aptly described by Ã¢Â€ÂœindoctrinationÃ¢Â€Â (this was in West Berlin, the situation is indubitably locally different). — 1 hour ago

score 14 · Answer 3 · 2018-11-05 12:57:00Z

I'm an atheist living in Germany, and had to face similar problems with the surroundings of my daugter (7).

One very important lesson that I try to teach her every day is to never blindly believe anything anyone tells her. She should double-check any piece of information, even if it comes from a supposedly reliable source (teacher, her parents, grand-parents, ...).

To do so, I often tell her nonsense with a serious face and wait until she notices it and tells me it's hogwash. We've been practising for many years now so she notices 95% of the time. When not, I explain her the correct version and why I did it.

Specifically for religion: I find it easier to expose an agnostic point of view to her : "We don't know, and nobody knows either". It's the most honest method in my humble opinion, it fits with the rest of our teaching philosophy and it shows it's perfectly fine to not know everything.

Some people use religion and the related tales in order to be better humans and that's okay.

"We don't know, and nobody knows either" But there are not even indications (much less evidence) for the existence of any gods, higher beings or mythological powers, so you might as well believe in invisible pink unicorns. — 2 hours ago
I like this advice to put across a more agnostic than atheist view. Give the facts and let them make up their own mind when they grow up. (My parents are atheists, but didn't teach me to be atheist - instead they taught me to be accepting of others' religions, but to make my own mind up how I felt.) — 1 hour ago
@AaronF it feels a little bit like a double standard. An Atheist believes there is no god, it seems a tad unfair to force them to put across an agnostic view point when you would never find that "hedge" position given by someone presenting a theistic viewpoint. — 56 mins ago
@Jontia for me, an atheist is an anti-theist, which is a lot stronger than simply believing that god doesn't exist. As an atheist, I believe that religion is responsible for many of the ills of the world (cf. crusade), has halted human progress (cf. dark ages) and continues to do so (cf. contemporary religions). Religion is evil and insidious: used by the power-hungry to subjugate and control people by playing on their fears. There is no singular greater evil than religion. Now, while I believe this, I wouldn't teach it to my child! Anyway, the journey to form a viewpoint is more important :-) — 45 mins ago
I'm wonder if I could just raise a child to believe passionately in a flying spaghetti monster? Might be fun to try. And if it all goes wrong and they never wise up I can at least point at them and say "See! That's how religion happens. Bad parenting!". — 36 mins ago

Sentinel 2293 · Answer 4 · 2018-11-05 12:15:10Z

I will offer a perspective as a child coming from an atheist background brought up in the UK.

My parents were Eastern European immigrants to the UK, defectors from a former Soviet Union state.

Neither parent really knew or cared about religion, and so I was brought up in an environment where deities were hardly ever mentioned.

I remember when I got to school, after pre-school, it was a Roman Catholic school, and one teacher started a lesson where she was reading something from the bible. It might have been the tale where Jesus was converting water to wine or something like that. In the pre-school we had "story time". I naturally thought this was "story time". I put my hand up and asked the teacher "is this a story?" I must have been 6 or 7 years old, maybe 5, I can't remember.

I remember the teacher looking at me kindly. When I debated with her that it must be a story because no one can turn water to wine (or whatever it was about), and that I have never heard of Jesus, she was fine about it. But the problem was the other kids. Suddenly this girl turned around at me and starting being really hostile. Apparently I was not allowed to speak of Jesus this way. She was just a little 6 year old too, but she was already yelling at me about being a blasphemer.

I was just confused. I had no idea what anyone was talking about or why there were such reactions. All I wanted to know, in my little child's mind, was if we were in story time or not, as it was something I remembered from the previous school, and did not know if the new school had it too.

Retrospectively, in an inclusive and diverse Western society, denominated schools should not be permitted. They cause confusion and tension, and in my opinion religion has no place in secular institutions key to social function.

Today, I still remember the Christian hymns we had to learn. I remember how 'religious education' was nothing of the sort. I would not wish this indoctrination into a specific religion on anyone, and I think it should be prohibited. If you possibly can, send your children to another education, even if you have to leave the country.

I've had similar experiences in the past. Kids can be especially cruel if they conclude that someone is "bad" or "wrong", whether motivated by religion or something else. Now, not every place is like this, but it's a risk that one should be aware of. — 59 mins ago

PlasmaHH 1513 · Answer 5 · 2018-11-05 12:30:47Z

I have two kids in a catholic kindergarten, and being grown up without much religion at all, at times I find things they do there pretty weird.

But then again, I grew up with things like santa claus, saint nicholas, the easter bunny and the tooth fary and probably many other things. And for some of those, the level of indoctrination was probably much more than what my kids get now. Many people will surely remember their parents threat of not getting any presents for christmas because santa sees all...

You say you want your kid to make a conscious choice when he is able to, but I think you might be missing that he is the one who will develop that ability to chose, and this will be a slow process, he will not wake up one day and decide to be able to decide. A part of the process is to let him be exposed to other choices, and the amount in kindergarten is quite ok. They know that you are not religious. They are usually not hammering into him that they tell the only truth, they offer him the religion as a possiblity, as a "we" he can be part of. While there may be extreme outliers (there are in other areas of childcare too), I have never once heard of a case where a kid would have to face negative consequences because they reject the religion. E.g. they are free to not pray together before lunch.

However these things are -- independently from it being religious or not -- often a good part of a childs environment. Rituals give safety and allow to free up mental resources for learning other things. I even allow them to do that at home if they want to. And they do it not because they really believe in those prayers, but because it is a ritual they have fun in, and the prayers are usually pretty childish and the kids make their own funny versions of it.

In the most cases your kid won't run around telling religion is BS anyways, because at that age they have better things to do and think about. And in the few cases they do, that is good, they see that the world is diverse, there is potential for conflict, and you are there to guide them into resolving that.

Usually kindergarten has the ability to talk to the parents in regular intervals to talk about the development etc., and after being there for a while, you might want to talk to them about that religion part.

Now that you made it until here, let me comment specifically on one thing you said:

"Daddy says your god is just your big imaginary friend and not real"

As I already previously said, you want to give your child the choice, but then you make it able for him to make a choice. You are saying to your child "There is no god" and being your child, he is much more likely inclined to believe you (which is in itself good). To really have a choice, what you want to say is "I believe that there is no god and they believe that there is a god". Then you give your kid possibilities.

My children are very interested in how the world is made up, and whenever they come home with the answer "god made it so" I tell them the child appropriate version of "Well, but the scientific community is sure it is because of X as seen by evidence Y". You will be surprise how quickly a three year old changes to asking "Daddy, what do the scientists say about it", which I think is mostly because of science being much more interesting and less one dimensional than "God did it". I make it rather clear that religion seems to be able to give a reason for something, but they can't explain or predict something.

Keep your relationship with your child healthy, and you will be their hero, the one they go to to have the world be explained, there is little the kindergarten can do about it, even if they seem to be at a time advantage, which they really are not because they most time there for the kids is playing, not religious activity.

+1 also for the rituals. We got very lucky with child care for our kid and she came home with a short thank you before meals in the form of a kids poem with some hand movements. Rather atheist/agnostic thanking the earth and sun for food but beautifully calms the kids down so they sit down to a meal. I was fascinated how fast she learned it and how happy she was to recite it. I think it's to do with the fact kids really like structure in their life. Makes it easier to cope with all the new stuff. — 2 hours ago
@DRF: Indeed, I think that is a vastly underestimated point. Kids brains seem to need more "processing power" to adapt to new things, and especially in the evening they often run out, so deviating from known procedures can evoke world ending feelings in them. — 1 hour ago

score 5 · Answer 6 · 2018-11-05 15:55:50Z

It is inevitable your child assumes the norms and values from the society he grows up in. If you don't like your environment, your only choice is to put your child in another environment.

But norms and values are fundamentally different from taking everything people say for granted, which is something most people learn when they become more self-conscious and start to question things. Be patient, this process will take at least one or two decades.

From a psychological perspective, be careful with your fears. Present a red button, and the more you tell not to press it, the more curious one becomes.

That being said. Like vsz already commented on your question, I urge you to reassess your objectivity on this matter. Do you also tell your child that Santa - spoiler alert - is "just a funny story without relevance" just to "prevent your child from being indoctrinated" by a load of Santa? I hope this reminds yourself to not fear when your child tells you he ate the body of Jesus - which doesn't necessarily entail cannibalism. Your fear is only rational if they would actually perform questionable non-symbolic acts.

If you want to teach your child to be rational, start with the man in the mirror.

Stephen 82954 · Answer 7 · 2018-11-05 10:36:53Z

My children both go to a Church of England school and, like you, I'm an atheist.

I deal with it by letting them make their own mind up. I have made it very clear that I don't believe in God but if they want to, that's their choice. If they want to talk to me about it, I remember what I learned in school and use phrases like "some people believe" and "what works for others".

If you start forcing your opinions on your child, you run the risk they will not believe anything the teacher tells them. If they're lying about God, what else are they lying about? Your child must trust teachers otherwise they won't want to learn anything.

@Strawberry from the OP's question: "As an atheist, I find this abhorrent and deeply offensive" — 5 hours ago
CoE is very different from the way religion is taught in (even liberal) parts of Germany: Many denominational kindergartens will accept nonbelievers but they will definitely try to convert your child, regardless of the parentÃ¢Â€Â™s stated will. — 1 hour ago

SantiBailors 269311 · Answer 8 · 2018-11-05 10:37:28Z

Avoid to do anything that might make your child feel "different" from the other children. At that age he doesn't understand - or care about - indoctrination, superstition, logic etc. and he only cares about fitting in with the other children. It will backfire if you interfer with this. Considered your purpose ("I want him to be able to make a conscious choice when he is able to"), your being "radical" is the biggest threat to that desired outcome - and the reason why you are so rigid in seeing a big threat in this and being so determined in wanting to prevent it.

Instead, just make sure to mention every now and then things that will automatically make the child face the fact that thousands of different religions exist, that most of them say very different things from each other and of course only one can be true, how lucky one needs to be to live right in the area of the world where the "correct" religion is mainstream, etc. Let the child's brain do the rest, don't push, don't try to give a specific direction to how this develops, and most importantly don't let your child feel you are doing that.

I, and most of my childhood friends who like me are non-believers, did go to church and kind of "believed" until we were more or less teenagers, and that did not decrease our ability to start thinking with our own mind thus dropping religions around that age; if anything, having listened to priests and their stories for years has made it even more likely that we would drop all that when possible.

Your being low-profile and easy-going about what happens in the kindergarden related to religion will automatically transmit to your child the awareness that these things (religions) exist but don't need to be taken too seriously if one doesn't feel the need to.

No, actually, they have to learn how to be different (in every way, not just deity-relevant). I have neighbours who went against their own beliefs and baptised their kids so they would conform to the others. Many problems in the world were caused by people just conforming, instead of learning how to say "er, no, actually, I disagree..." — 2 hours ago
I disagree as well, because it is important for children to learn that being different is not a bad thing and that it is important to accept each others differences. Take skin color for example. Not accepting different skin colors would be racist. — 1 hour ago
@RedSonia I have neighbours who went against their own beliefs and baptised their kids so they would conform to the others. ... And? I was expecting a mention of what problems the baptizing caused, to the children or by the children. I cannot follow your logic. I am an agnostic and I definitely disliked the idea of my children being taken to a temple where a stranger in a vest would drop some water on their forehead to help their future after death, and yet their baptizing created no problems, while being the only non-baptized children in the community would have. — 1 hour ago
@Alex it is important for children to learn that being different is not a bad thing Not when they are 2 years old. And especially not when "being different" is a decision of the parents, certainly not of the kid (who by the way, again, is just two years old). — 1 hour ago
@SantiBailors Could you give reasons for your two claims or is that your personal opinion? Because I believe it's a good thing to let children naturally learn that living together in harmony is not limited by beliefs. — 1 hour ago

RedSonja 625610 · Answer 9 · 2018-11-05 12:19:15Z

About 25 years ago I was in the same place as you. So here are my observations:

At 3 years old it's already too late for kindergarten to persuade your kid that their deity is more real than Santa. Your kid copies you a lot more than you think.

Actually they don't try very hard, they all just troop along to church or whatever, sing the songs, decorate for Christmas, paint Easter eggs.

And here is my advice:

You will have noticed yourself by now that there is a time and place for militant evangelising atheism. Teach your kid that we may not believe in talking snakes or flying horses, but many people do, and it hurts them if you make fun of them. Christianity, as practiced in Germany in the 21st century, is mostly harmless. Grandparents may need at least to pretend to be believers.

Also, make sure your kid learns about all religions. It will love the spaghetti monster, also the Greek and Norse myths and so on are pretty good stories. You do not need to point out the similarities, let them notice that bit themselves.

In a Catholic area there is a thing called first communion. Preparation takes forever and the kids don't care for it, but they get lots of presents. My kids wanted the presents, of course, but that's tough.

We never pressured them to be atheist. We always said they could choose and join any religion they wanted when they reached 18. (Privately I thought "over my dead body", but anyway...) They never did.

"We always said they could choose and join any religion they wanted when they reached 18". You forbade your kids to join a religion before being 18? Sounds terrible authoritarianism (almost facist). If I would forbid my kids to be atheist and/or to skip church service before they are 18 I would have the whole welfare services at my house condemning me for being an authoritarian parent. Btw, did you forbade them also to drink alcohol, eat bacon and play videogames? Those are pretty damaging thinks to do before reaching 18 too. — 42 mins ago
If they had found some deity and wanted to become priests of course we would have agreed. We just didn't push them any way (never said there is only one way and it's this one). In kindergarten and primary school they got Catholic stuff, in secondary school we balanced this out with Protestant stuff, then they themselves both decided to change to Ethics (this is the choice in our area). — 6 mins ago
As parents I think we were pretty authoritarian. No murder, rape or robbery allowed, no (illegal) drugs. Always tell the truth. Don't refuse to eat something without trying it first. If you get caught riding your bike without the helmet the bike gets locked up for a week. Dreadful. Don't know why they turned out so well. — 2 mins ago

kingledion 45124 · Answer 10 · 2018-11-05 14:22:37Z

You (the parent) are responsible for 'indoctrinating' your children

Let me tell you what I think, from the complete opposite side. I am a fundamentalist Christian, who has the misfortune of living in Sodom (aka Washington DC). Christians who want a Christian education in the large cities of the US sent their kids to a Christian school. But, the one near my house is 14k per year, per child. I can't afford that. So I have to send my children to public school, where they are exposed to, what I consider to be, the 'radical atheist' agenda: pro-homosexual, pro-transsexual, self-centered, etc.

What am I to do? Your fear is exactly the same fear that I have as a Christian parent. All I can do is teach my children. I explain to them the Nature of God and the world that He created. I explain to them the nature of Man, and the purpose for which we were created. I teach them about sin and repentance and Jesus' promise of redemption. And then they go to public schools, and are exposed to the wickedness of the world, and I despair. But as a Christian, I have faith that God will help me and my wife to guide our children, so that they know and choose Him when they get older. And I have faith that their knowledge and interaction with non-Christian society will make them stronger in their faith, stronger even than I am now.

If you have a set of beliefs that you want your children to hold, what can you do other than try to teach them? It is not as if no child has ever rebelled against what their parents taught. My wife never went to church until she was in her mid 20's, and now we raise our children in Christ. And, I know plenty of people who tried to rise their children in Christ only to see them become worldly atheists. You and I just have to live with the possibility that our children might not do as we wish.

Ultimately, there is nothing you can do to 'make' your children follow your beliefs. But it is very silly to think that any sort of indoctrination will be effective, either yours or the school to which your children attend. Teach your children the best that you can, and have faith that they will find the best path by following their Reason.

Bernd Wilke ÃÂ€ÃÂ† 1212 · Answer 11 · 2018-11-05 14:13:19Z

If you think any religious behaviour is "abhorrent and deeply offensive" you need to look for another country to live.

In Germany the whole life is connected to the christian religion. It is up to you how much you live it for yourself (*), but I don't think that you are able to avoid it completely:

Most of the holidays are based on christianity.

And all shops take the opportunity to make extra sales based on holidays, especially months before the event (e.g. you can buy christmas cookies from start of october)

Today all those religious events are changed and perverted from the origin, that IMHO everyone should be able to see easily the discrepance, but nearly nobody cares.

Will you tell your child about Santa Clause? it is christian, so it nowhere is mentioned in the bible. and how will you avoid the chistmas time, when all shops have christmas sales, when you see chrsitmas decoration everywhere, when you see santa clause personifications, even on TV and cinema?

Try to support the curiosity and suspicion of your child so it can build up their own mind about their reality.

And be open if it starts to believe in a god.

(*) As germany has a lot of not christian immigrants there must be the possibility to live in germany whithout christianity, but that also is a potential to get in conflicts with your neighbors.

Hi and welcome to Parenting.SE! Can you please clarify a bit more how this attempts to answer the OP's question? — 1 hour ago
@AnneDaunted I believe he meant to answer like this (which worked imho): "you can't prevent it, because it's everywhere". Also the advice in bold is good. — 1 hour ago
I think if the OP is so upset by the possibility that his child has to sing a christian song or hear a bible story he will have problems in everyday living in germany at all. What I have not written in my answer: with this attitude the living in nearly every country of the world will be complicated as nearly all countries base on a specific religion. — 1 hour ago
@BerndWilkeÃÂ€ÃÂ† is conflict between Christian and non-Christian neighbours frequent in Germany? — 36 mins ago
@AaronF Never even heard of such a conflict. Then again, I avoid gossiping and tabloids. But you can perfectly ignore all religion-based things in most aspects of daily live in most of Germany. There surely are places though where people will consider you a bit weird or will resent you if you voice your atheist convictions in the "it's just a fairy tale" tone. It can close some doors though, i.e. some schools might only/preferably accept people of certain denominations. — 1 min ago

score -2 · Answer 12 · 2018-11-05 15:23:30Z

up vote
-2
down vote

This might not be the answer you want to hear, but could it be true that Christianity might actually be good for your child? As in, make him or her a better adjusted citizen and a happier person overall? In most parts of the world, being religious is perfectly normal, and many Christians are often better adjusted under harsher circumstances than their non-religious counterparts.

edited 34 mins ago

answered 2 hours ago

Joebevo

972

New contributor

Great answer! Yes: brainwashing is the answer! Don't worry, it's perfectly normal in most parts of the world!
â€“Â Aaron F
2 hours ago

Hi and welcome to Parenting.SE! Please have a look at this meta discussion.
â€“Â Anne Daunted
2 hours ago

Christian myself here, but I really don't like this answer. Not only does it not really help the poster with their question (one which would be applicable to any parent who does not share the priveldged belief system where they live), but it attacks their religious belief system (or lack therof). It would only take a simple job transfer for me or the poster or anyone else here to find themselves in this same situation.
â€“Â T.E.D.
1 hour ago

Hi @T.E.D. Fair enough! I could have softened the wording, I admit.
â€“Â Joebevo
41 mins ago

It's edited now, to sound less harsh on the OP.
â€“Â Joebevo
32 mins ago

add a commentÂ |Â

CÃ…Â“ur 1033 · Answer 13 · 2018-11-05 12:09:07Z