Mixing
Why don’t we use the term “scale signatureâ€Â, rather than “key signatureâ€Â?
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This would avoid the confusion of saying, for example, that the key of A dorian has a key signature of G. Or saying that the key of A minor has a key signature of C. I’m all for making things clearer for people learning music. If a piece is in D dorian, I always put “D dorian†above the key signature of C. This makes it clear what key the piece is really in.
theory key modes
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Brian F
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This would avoid the confusion of saying, for example, that the key of A dorian has a key signature of G. Or saying that the key of A minor has a key signature of C. I’m all for making things clearer for people learning music. If a piece is in D dorian, I always put “D dorian†above the key signature of C. This makes it clear what key the piece is really in.
theory key modes
asked 2 hours ago
Brian F
162
New contributor
Brian F is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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For one thing, Dorian is a mode, not a key .
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - is that what was worth a downvote?
– Tim
1 hour ago
@Tim -- I subscribe to the paradigm that a downvote indicates that the question is unlikely to be of interest or value to the general readership. I'm not using it as an ad-hominem attack.
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - I understand where you're coming from, but consider a close vote is far more effective, as a downvote in its own right (has it any?!) without applicable comment, is pretty meaningless, unless it's supposed to mean 'I just don't like this question', which again is personal without any clues, or, I would say, 'like a broken pencil'...
– Tim
1 hour ago
@Tim, fair enough.. I'll remove
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
This would avoid the confusion of saying, for example, that the key of A dorian has a key signature of G. Or saying that the key of A minor has a key signature of C. I’m all for making things clearer for people learning music. If a piece is in D dorian, I always put “D dorian†above the key signature of C. This makes it clear what key the piece is really in.
theory key modes
asked 2 hours ago
Brian F
162
New contributor
Brian F is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
This would avoid the confusion of saying, for example, that the key of A dorian has a key signature of G. Or saying that the key of A minor has a key signature of C. I’m all for making things clearer for people learning music. If a piece is in D dorian, I always put “D dorian†above the key signature of C. This makes it clear what key the piece is really in.
theory key modes
theory key modes
asked 2 hours ago
Brian F
162
New contributor
Brian F is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 2 hours ago
Brian F
162
New contributor
Brian F is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 2 hours ago
Brian F
162
New contributor
Brian F is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 2 hours ago
Brian F
162
asked 2 hours ago
Brian F
162
162
New contributor
Brian F is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Brian F is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Brian F is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
For one thing, Dorian is a mode, not a key .
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - is that what was worth a downvote?
– Tim
1 hour ago
@Tim -- I subscribe to the paradigm that a downvote indicates that the question is unlikely to be of interest or value to the general readership. I'm not using it as an ad-hominem attack.
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - I understand where you're coming from, but consider a close vote is far more effective, as a downvote in its own right (has it any?!) without applicable comment, is pretty meaningless, unless it's supposed to mean 'I just don't like this question', which again is personal without any clues, or, I would say, 'like a broken pencil'...
– Tim
1 hour ago
@Tim, fair enough.. I'll remove
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
For one thing, Dorian is a mode, not a key .
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - is that what was worth a downvote?
– Tim
1 hour ago
@Tim -- I subscribe to the paradigm that a downvote indicates that the question is unlikely to be of interest or value to the general readership. I'm not using it as an ad-hominem attack.
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - I understand where you're coming from, but consider a close vote is far more effective, as a downvote in its own right (has it any?!) without applicable comment, is pretty meaningless, unless it's supposed to mean 'I just don't like this question', which again is personal without any clues, or, I would say, 'like a broken pencil'...
– Tim
1 hour ago
@Tim, fair enough.. I'll remove
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
For one thing, Dorian is a mode, not a key .
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
For one thing, Dorian is a mode, not a key .
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - is that what was worth a downvote?
– Tim
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - is that what was worth a downvote?
– Tim
1 hour ago
@Tim -- I subscribe to the paradigm that a downvote indicates that the question is unlikely to be of interest or value to the general readership. I'm not using it as an ad-hominem attack.
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@Tim -- I subscribe to the paradigm that a downvote indicates that the question is unlikely to be of interest or value to the general readership. I'm not using it as an ad-hominem attack.
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - I understand where you're coming from, but consider a close vote is far more effective, as a downvote in its own right (has it any?!) without applicable comment, is pretty meaningless, unless it's supposed to mean 'I just don't like this question', which again is personal without any clues, or, I would say, 'like a broken pencil'...
– Tim
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - I understand where you're coming from, but consider a close vote is far more effective, as a downvote in its own right (has it any?!) without applicable comment, is pretty meaningless, unless it's supposed to mean 'I just don't like this question', which again is personal without any clues, or, I would say, 'like a broken pencil'...
– Tim
1 hour ago
@Tim, fair enough.. I'll remove
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@Tim, fair enough.. I'll remove
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
2 Answers
2
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oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
Let's take a step back. A key is a very specific concept in music theory. The key tells you what the tonic of a pieces is and the general type of Harmony to expect. It will never indicated what scales to use which especially in a minor key could look vastly different from the key signature.
Since tonal harmony focuses on major and minor, trying to indicate modes with a key signature is always difficult. Most people just use if the mode is major or minor to determine what key signature they should use. For D Dorian, since it is a minor mode you could use D minor to indicate it. Not a perfect fit, but it still preserves the indication on the tonic.
answered 1 hour ago
Dom♦
34.8k1899213
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
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A scale is a set of notes. That may be a major scale, any one of several minors, and possibly modes.
A key signature merely gives which notes in a piece are likely to be included in the following piece. The 'key signature* of 3# gives us a clue that the piece could be in A major, or maybe F#m. If it is indeed in F#m, then there are often several note changes that need to be made along the way, as harmonic minor has a slightly different set of notes in its scale from melodic (including possible natural minor).
So, even when the 'key sig.' is 3#, it's often not reflecting what's likely to be going on. We have to look for clues - the last note, is it A or F#? Is there a change in what the leading note's called? What harmonies are most prevalent?
That's the same with modes, the method you describe being my preferred, although if the 'key sig.' was 3#, I'd expect a B at the end, and a minor tonality to the piece if it was in B Dorian.
So, even with a change of name to 'scale signature', I don't see how that would help a lot. At least one composer, Bartok, I think, used something like Bb and F# in the 'key sig.' to indicate G minor - which actually makes some sense, however, it obviously didn't catch on - otherwise we'd be using it now!
answered 2 hours ago
Tim
91.8k1094231
Bartok often writes stuff on the edge of not being in any fixed mode; hence the wacky key signatures.
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - fair comment, but actually, with a key sig. of Bb and F#, it gets pretty close to being more accurate than Bb and Eb. Maybe he included Eb as well, not sure!
– Tim
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
Let's take a step back. A key is a very specific concept in music theory. The key tells you what the tonic of a pieces is and the general type of Harmony to expect. It will never indicated what scales to use which especially in a minor key could look vastly different from the key signature.
Since tonal harmony focuses on major and minor, trying to indicate modes with a key signature is always difficult. Most people just use if the mode is major or minor to determine what key signature they should use. For D Dorian, since it is a minor mode you could use D minor to indicate it. Not a perfect fit, but it still preserves the indication on the tonic.
answered 1 hour ago
Dom♦
34.8k1899213
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
Let's take a step back. A key is a very specific concept in music theory. The key tells you what the tonic of a pieces is and the general type of Harmony to expect. It will never indicated what scales to use which especially in a minor key could look vastly different from the key signature.
Since tonal harmony focuses on major and minor, trying to indicate modes with a key signature is always difficult. Most people just use if the mode is major or minor to determine what key signature they should use. For D Dorian, since it is a minor mode you could use D minor to indicate it. Not a perfect fit, but it still preserves the indication on the tonic.
answered 1 hour ago
Dom♦
34.8k1899213
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
Let's take a step back. A key is a very specific concept in music theory. The key tells you what the tonic of a pieces is and the general type of Harmony to expect. It will never indicated what scales to use which especially in a minor key could look vastly different from the key signature.
Since tonal harmony focuses on major and minor, trying to indicate modes with a key signature is always difficult. Most people just use if the mode is major or minor to determine what key signature they should use. For D Dorian, since it is a minor mode you could use D minor to indicate it. Not a perfect fit, but it still preserves the indication on the tonic.
answered 1 hour ago
Dom♦
34.8k1899213
Let's take a step back. A key is a very specific concept in music theory. The key tells you what the tonic of a pieces is and the general type of Harmony to expect. It will never indicated what scales to use which especially in a minor key could look vastly different from the key signature.
Since tonal harmony focuses on major and minor, trying to indicate modes with a key signature is always difficult. Most people just use if the mode is major or minor to determine what key signature they should use. For D Dorian, since it is a minor mode you could use D minor to indicate it. Not a perfect fit, but it still preserves the indication on the tonic.
answered 1 hour ago
Dom♦
34.8k1899213
edited 13 mins ago
answered 1 hour ago
Dom♦
34.8k1899213
answered 1 hour ago
Dom♦
34.8k1899213
answered 1 hour ago
Dom♦
34.8k1899213
34.8k1899213
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
A scale is a set of notes. That may be a major scale, any one of several minors, and possibly modes.
A key signature merely gives which notes in a piece are likely to be included in the following piece. The 'key signature* of 3# gives us a clue that the piece could be in A major, or maybe F#m. If it is indeed in F#m, then there are often several note changes that need to be made along the way, as harmonic minor has a slightly different set of notes in its scale from melodic (including possible natural minor).
So, even when the 'key sig.' is 3#, it's often not reflecting what's likely to be going on. We have to look for clues - the last note, is it A or F#? Is there a change in what the leading note's called? What harmonies are most prevalent?
That's the same with modes, the method you describe being my preferred, although if the 'key sig.' was 3#, I'd expect a B at the end, and a minor tonality to the piece if it was in B Dorian.
So, even with a change of name to 'scale signature', I don't see how that would help a lot. At least one composer, Bartok, I think, used something like Bb and F# in the 'key sig.' to indicate G minor - which actually makes some sense, however, it obviously didn't catch on - otherwise we'd be using it now!
answered 2 hours ago
Tim
91.8k1094231
Bartok often writes stuff on the edge of not being in any fixed mode; hence the wacky key signatures.
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - fair comment, but actually, with a key sig. of Bb and F#, it gets pretty close to being more accurate than Bb and Eb. Maybe he included Eb as well, not sure!
– Tim
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
A scale is a set of notes. That may be a major scale, any one of several minors, and possibly modes.
A key signature merely gives which notes in a piece are likely to be included in the following piece. The 'key signature* of 3# gives us a clue that the piece could be in A major, or maybe F#m. If it is indeed in F#m, then there are often several note changes that need to be made along the way, as harmonic minor has a slightly different set of notes in its scale from melodic (including possible natural minor).
So, even when the 'key sig.' is 3#, it's often not reflecting what's likely to be going on. We have to look for clues - the last note, is it A or F#? Is there a change in what the leading note's called? What harmonies are most prevalent?
That's the same with modes, the method you describe being my preferred, although if the 'key sig.' was 3#, I'd expect a B at the end, and a minor tonality to the piece if it was in B Dorian.
So, even with a change of name to 'scale signature', I don't see how that would help a lot. At least one composer, Bartok, I think, used something like Bb and F# in the 'key sig.' to indicate G minor - which actually makes some sense, however, it obviously didn't catch on - otherwise we'd be using it now!
answered 2 hours ago
Tim
91.8k1094231
Bartok often writes stuff on the edge of not being in any fixed mode; hence the wacky key signatures.
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - fair comment, but actually, with a key sig. of Bb and F#, it gets pretty close to being more accurate than Bb and Eb. Maybe he included Eb as well, not sure!
– Tim
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
A scale is a set of notes. That may be a major scale, any one of several minors, and possibly modes.
A key signature merely gives which notes in a piece are likely to be included in the following piece. The 'key signature* of 3# gives us a clue that the piece could be in A major, or maybe F#m. If it is indeed in F#m, then there are often several note changes that need to be made along the way, as harmonic minor has a slightly different set of notes in its scale from melodic (including possible natural minor).
So, even when the 'key sig.' is 3#, it's often not reflecting what's likely to be going on. We have to look for clues - the last note, is it A or F#? Is there a change in what the leading note's called? What harmonies are most prevalent?
That's the same with modes, the method you describe being my preferred, although if the 'key sig.' was 3#, I'd expect a B at the end, and a minor tonality to the piece if it was in B Dorian.
So, even with a change of name to 'scale signature', I don't see how that would help a lot. At least one composer, Bartok, I think, used something like Bb and F# in the 'key sig.' to indicate G minor - which actually makes some sense, however, it obviously didn't catch on - otherwise we'd be using it now!
answered 2 hours ago
Tim
91.8k1094231
A scale is a set of notes. That may be a major scale, any one of several minors, and possibly modes.
A key signature merely gives which notes in a piece are likely to be included in the following piece. The 'key signature* of 3# gives us a clue that the piece could be in A major, or maybe F#m. If it is indeed in F#m, then there are often several note changes that need to be made along the way, as harmonic minor has a slightly different set of notes in its scale from melodic (including possible natural minor).
So, even when the 'key sig.' is 3#, it's often not reflecting what's likely to be going on. We have to look for clues - the last note, is it A or F#? Is there a change in what the leading note's called? What harmonies are most prevalent?
That's the same with modes, the method you describe being my preferred, although if the 'key sig.' was 3#, I'd expect a B at the end, and a minor tonality to the piece if it was in B Dorian.
So, even with a change of name to 'scale signature', I don't see how that would help a lot. At least one composer, Bartok, I think, used something like Bb and F# in the 'key sig.' to indicate G minor - which actually makes some sense, however, it obviously didn't catch on - otherwise we'd be using it now!
answered 2 hours ago
Tim
91.8k1094231
answered 2 hours ago
Tim
91.8k1094231
answered 2 hours ago
Tim
91.8k1094231
answered 2 hours ago
Tim
91.8k1094231
91.8k1094231
Bartok often writes stuff on the edge of not being in any fixed mode; hence the wacky key signatures.
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - fair comment, but actually, with a key sig. of Bb and F#, it gets pretty close to being more accurate than Bb and Eb. Maybe he included Eb as well, not sure!
– Tim
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
Bartok often writes stuff on the edge of not being in any fixed mode; hence the wacky key signatures.
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - fair comment, but actually, with a key sig. of Bb and F#, it gets pretty close to being more accurate than Bb and Eb. Maybe he included Eb as well, not sure!
– Tim
1 hour ago
Bartok often writes stuff on the edge of not being in any fixed mode; hence the wacky key signatures.
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
Bartok often writes stuff on the edge of not being in any fixed mode; hence the wacky key signatures.
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - fair comment, but actually, with a key sig. of Bb and F#, it gets pretty close to being more accurate than Bb and Eb. Maybe he included Eb as well, not sure!
– Tim
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - fair comment, but actually, with a key sig. of Bb and F#, it gets pretty close to being more accurate than Bb and Eb. Maybe he included Eb as well, not sure!
– Tim
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
Brian F is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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For one thing, Dorian is a mode, not a key .
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - is that what was worth a downvote?
– Tim
1 hour ago
@Tim -- I subscribe to the paradigm that a downvote indicates that the question is unlikely to be of interest or value to the general readership. I'm not using it as an ad-hominem attack.
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago
@CarlWitthoft - I understand where you're coming from, but consider a close vote is far more effective, as a downvote in its own right (has it any?!) without applicable comment, is pretty meaningless, unless it's supposed to mean 'I just don't like this question', which again is personal without any clues, or, I would say, 'like a broken pencil'...
– Tim
1 hour ago
@Tim, fair enough.. I'll remove
– Carl Witthoft
1 hour ago