Mixing
What happens when two spells of different level are in conflict?
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An enemy sorcerer casts dominate person on the party's fighter, and says "give me the sword!"
The party's wizard casts suggestion on the fighter, and says "No, give me the sword!"
In situations like this, where two spells both attempt to achieve contrary effects on the same target, which effect takes precedence? Is there a rule, or is purely it up to the DM?
dnd-5e spells
edited 2 hours ago
KorvinStarmast
66.7k15211368
asked 3 hours ago
Quadratic Wizard
20.3k367112
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
An enemy sorcerer casts dominate person on the party's fighter, and says "give me the sword!"
The party's wizard casts suggestion on the fighter, and says "No, give me the sword!"
In situations like this, where two spells both attempt to achieve contrary effects on the same target, which effect takes precedence? Is there a rule, or is purely it up to the DM?
dnd-5e spells
edited 2 hours ago
KorvinStarmast
66.7k15211368
asked 3 hours ago
Quadratic Wizard
20.3k367112
3
This is not a good example, as suggestion has to be reasonable and I would say that going against an absolute order is not so.
– Szega
2 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
An enemy sorcerer casts dominate person on the party's fighter, and says "give me the sword!"
The party's wizard casts suggestion on the fighter, and says "No, give me the sword!"
In situations like this, where two spells both attempt to achieve contrary effects on the same target, which effect takes precedence? Is there a rule, or is purely it up to the DM?
dnd-5e spells
edited 2 hours ago
KorvinStarmast
66.7k15211368
asked 3 hours ago
Quadratic Wizard
20.3k367112
An enemy sorcerer casts dominate person on the party's fighter, and says "give me the sword!"
The party's wizard casts suggestion on the fighter, and says "No, give me the sword!"
In situations like this, where two spells both attempt to achieve contrary effects on the same target, which effect takes precedence? Is there a rule, or is purely it up to the DM?
dnd-5e spells
dnd-5e spells
edited 2 hours ago
KorvinStarmast
66.7k15211368
asked 3 hours ago
Quadratic Wizard
20.3k367112
edited 2 hours ago
KorvinStarmast
66.7k15211368
asked 3 hours ago
Quadratic Wizard
20.3k367112
edited 2 hours ago
KorvinStarmast
66.7k15211368
edited 2 hours ago
KorvinStarmast
66.7k15211368
edited 2 hours ago
KorvinStarmast
66.7k15211368
66.7k15211368
asked 3 hours ago
Quadratic Wizard
20.3k367112
asked 3 hours ago
Quadratic Wizard
20.3k367112
asked 3 hours ago
Quadratic Wizard
20.3k367112
20.3k367112
3
This is not a good example, as suggestion has to be reasonable and I would say that going against an absolute order is not so.
– Szega
2 hours ago
add a comment |Â
3
This is not a good example, as suggestion has to be reasonable and I would say that going against an absolute order is not so.
– Szega
2 hours ago
3
3
This is not a good example, as suggestion has to be reasonable and I would say that going against an absolute order is not so.
– Szega
2 hours ago
This is not a good example, as suggestion has to be reasonable and I would say that going against an absolute order is not so.
– Szega
2 hours ago
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
There isn't a general answer
You need to compare the spell effects where different spells are in opposition to each other. In this case, when the friendly wizard gives the Fighter a suggestion, the Fighter is already dominated by the other wizard. Their decision making has been taken over by that domination.
You can use your action to take total and precise control of the target. Until the end of your next turn, the creature takes only the actions you choose, and doesn’t do anything that you don’t allow it to do. During this time you can also cause the creature to use a reaction, but this requires you to use your own reaction as well. (Basic Rules, Dominate p. 88-89)
The bolded text would be hard to overwrite by a suggestion, since the Fighter would be trying to do something different than the enemy wizard would allow him to do.
You suggest a course of activity... The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell. (Basic Rules, p. 102)
Suggestion does not appear, by the rules text, to overwrite the control being exercised by the wizard who cast dominate.
Can the DM rule otherwise? Sure.
If the DM wants to give this a chance to succeed, the ruling ought to account for the differing levels in power and magical effect between the two spells.
Consider this: dispel magic is a 3rd level spell that requires either
a 5th level slot be expended, or that DC 15 ability check succeed to
overcome a 5th level spell; you would expect Suggestion (a second level spell) to have a harder time than dispel magic if it even could succeed).
For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability
check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s
level. On a successful check, the spell ends. (Dispel Magic, spell description, p. 88 Basic Rules)
At best this would be a contest (as outlined below) with disadvantage applied to the friendly wizard's roll, or advantage applied to the enemy caster's roll.
The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one
direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a
result. (Basic Rules, p. 57, Advantage/Disadvantage)
If the two spells were of the same level, or were the same spell ...
This situation would fit the Contest rules.
Contests
Sometimes one character’s or monster’s efforts are directly opposed to
another’s. This can occur when both of them are trying to do the same
thing and only one can succeed, ...(Basic Rules, p. 58)
Since the two spell casters are contesting control of the fighter, have them roll an ability check under the contest rules (spellcasting ability vs spellcasting ability) presuming that the fighter failed the saving throw versus the enemy spell caster.
Both participants in a contest make ability checks appropriate to
their efforts. They apply all appropriate bonuses and penalties, but
instead of comparing the total to a DC, they compare the totals of
their two checks. The participant with the higher check total wins the
contest. That character or monster either succeeds at the action or
prevents the other one from succeeding.
answered 2 hours ago
KorvinStarmast
66.7k15211368
4
How would or (or would you) handle the spell level difference in terms of power? Giving equal power between a 5th and 2nd level spell seems potentially problematic. And also how are you handling the Fighter being given the suggestion, but they are dominated by a 3rd party. Their own personal desires have already been removed, no?
– NautArch
2 hours ago
1
"save DC vs save DC" should be "spellcasting ability vs spellcasting ability"
– Szega
2 hours ago
I think you're right in that there isn't a clear answer, but making it more explicit that it's a DM's call at this point and what things to consider when evaluating seems like the right way to go here.
– NautArch
1 hour ago
@NautArch Done as suggested.
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
@Szega Fixed as suggested
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
There isn't a general answer
You need to compare the spell effects where different spells are in opposition to each other. In this case, when the friendly wizard gives the Fighter a suggestion, the Fighter is already dominated by the other wizard. Their decision making has been taken over by that domination.
You can use your action to take total and precise control of the target. Until the end of your next turn, the creature takes only the actions you choose, and doesn’t do anything that you don’t allow it to do. During this time you can also cause the creature to use a reaction, but this requires you to use your own reaction as well. (Basic Rules, Dominate p. 88-89)
The bolded text would be hard to overwrite by a suggestion, since the Fighter would be trying to do something different than the enemy wizard would allow him to do.
You suggest a course of activity... The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell. (Basic Rules, p. 102)
Suggestion does not appear, by the rules text, to overwrite the control being exercised by the wizard who cast dominate.
Can the DM rule otherwise? Sure.
If the DM wants to give this a chance to succeed, the ruling ought to account for the differing levels in power and magical effect between the two spells.
Consider this: dispel magic is a 3rd level spell that requires either
a 5th level slot be expended, or that DC 15 ability check succeed to
overcome a 5th level spell; you would expect Suggestion (a second level spell) to have a harder time than dispel magic if it even could succeed).
For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability
check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s
level. On a successful check, the spell ends. (Dispel Magic, spell description, p. 88 Basic Rules)
At best this would be a contest (as outlined below) with disadvantage applied to the friendly wizard's roll, or advantage applied to the enemy caster's roll.
The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one
direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a
result. (Basic Rules, p. 57, Advantage/Disadvantage)
If the two spells were of the same level, or were the same spell ...
This situation would fit the Contest rules.
Contests
Sometimes one character’s or monster’s efforts are directly opposed to
another’s. This can occur when both of them are trying to do the same
thing and only one can succeed, ...(Basic Rules, p. 58)
Since the two spell casters are contesting control of the fighter, have them roll an ability check under the contest rules (spellcasting ability vs spellcasting ability) presuming that the fighter failed the saving throw versus the enemy spell caster.
Both participants in a contest make ability checks appropriate to
their efforts. They apply all appropriate bonuses and penalties, but
instead of comparing the total to a DC, they compare the totals of
their two checks. The participant with the higher check total wins the
contest. That character or monster either succeeds at the action or
prevents the other one from succeeding.
answered 2 hours ago
KorvinStarmast
66.7k15211368
4
How would or (or would you) handle the spell level difference in terms of power? Giving equal power between a 5th and 2nd level spell seems potentially problematic. And also how are you handling the Fighter being given the suggestion, but they are dominated by a 3rd party. Their own personal desires have already been removed, no?
– NautArch
2 hours ago
1
"save DC vs save DC" should be "spellcasting ability vs spellcasting ability"
– Szega
2 hours ago
I think you're right in that there isn't a clear answer, but making it more explicit that it's a DM's call at this point and what things to consider when evaluating seems like the right way to go here.
– NautArch
1 hour ago
@NautArch Done as suggested.
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
@Szega Fixed as suggested
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
3
down vote
There isn't a general answer
You need to compare the spell effects where different spells are in opposition to each other. In this case, when the friendly wizard gives the Fighter a suggestion, the Fighter is already dominated by the other wizard. Their decision making has been taken over by that domination.
You can use your action to take total and precise control of the target. Until the end of your next turn, the creature takes only the actions you choose, and doesn’t do anything that you don’t allow it to do. During this time you can also cause the creature to use a reaction, but this requires you to use your own reaction as well. (Basic Rules, Dominate p. 88-89)
The bolded text would be hard to overwrite by a suggestion, since the Fighter would be trying to do something different than the enemy wizard would allow him to do.
You suggest a course of activity... The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell. (Basic Rules, p. 102)
Suggestion does not appear, by the rules text, to overwrite the control being exercised by the wizard who cast dominate.
Can the DM rule otherwise? Sure.
If the DM wants to give this a chance to succeed, the ruling ought to account for the differing levels in power and magical effect between the two spells.
Consider this: dispel magic is a 3rd level spell that requires either
a 5th level slot be expended, or that DC 15 ability check succeed to
overcome a 5th level spell; you would expect Suggestion (a second level spell) to have a harder time than dispel magic if it even could succeed).
For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability
check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s
level. On a successful check, the spell ends. (Dispel Magic, spell description, p. 88 Basic Rules)
At best this would be a contest (as outlined below) with disadvantage applied to the friendly wizard's roll, or advantage applied to the enemy caster's roll.
The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one
direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a
result. (Basic Rules, p. 57, Advantage/Disadvantage)
If the two spells were of the same level, or were the same spell ...
This situation would fit the Contest rules.
Contests
Sometimes one character’s or monster’s efforts are directly opposed to
another’s. This can occur when both of them are trying to do the same
thing and only one can succeed, ...(Basic Rules, p. 58)
Since the two spell casters are contesting control of the fighter, have them roll an ability check under the contest rules (spellcasting ability vs spellcasting ability) presuming that the fighter failed the saving throw versus the enemy spell caster.
Both participants in a contest make ability checks appropriate to
their efforts. They apply all appropriate bonuses and penalties, but
instead of comparing the total to a DC, they compare the totals of
their two checks. The participant with the higher check total wins the
contest. That character or monster either succeeds at the action or
prevents the other one from succeeding.
answered 2 hours ago
KorvinStarmast
66.7k15211368
4
How would or (or would you) handle the spell level difference in terms of power? Giving equal power between a 5th and 2nd level spell seems potentially problematic. And also how are you handling the Fighter being given the suggestion, but they are dominated by a 3rd party. Their own personal desires have already been removed, no?
– NautArch
2 hours ago
1
"save DC vs save DC" should be "spellcasting ability vs spellcasting ability"
– Szega
2 hours ago
I think you're right in that there isn't a clear answer, but making it more explicit that it's a DM's call at this point and what things to consider when evaluating seems like the right way to go here.
– NautArch
1 hour ago
@NautArch Done as suggested.
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
@Szega Fixed as suggested
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
There isn't a general answer
You need to compare the spell effects where different spells are in opposition to each other. In this case, when the friendly wizard gives the Fighter a suggestion, the Fighter is already dominated by the other wizard. Their decision making has been taken over by that domination.
You can use your action to take total and precise control of the target. Until the end of your next turn, the creature takes only the actions you choose, and doesn’t do anything that you don’t allow it to do. During this time you can also cause the creature to use a reaction, but this requires you to use your own reaction as well. (Basic Rules, Dominate p. 88-89)
The bolded text would be hard to overwrite by a suggestion, since the Fighter would be trying to do something different than the enemy wizard would allow him to do.
You suggest a course of activity... The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell. (Basic Rules, p. 102)
Suggestion does not appear, by the rules text, to overwrite the control being exercised by the wizard who cast dominate.
Can the DM rule otherwise? Sure.
If the DM wants to give this a chance to succeed, the ruling ought to account for the differing levels in power and magical effect between the two spells.
Consider this: dispel magic is a 3rd level spell that requires either
a 5th level slot be expended, or that DC 15 ability check succeed to
overcome a 5th level spell; you would expect Suggestion (a second level spell) to have a harder time than dispel magic if it even could succeed).
For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability
check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s
level. On a successful check, the spell ends. (Dispel Magic, spell description, p. 88 Basic Rules)
At best this would be a contest (as outlined below) with disadvantage applied to the friendly wizard's roll, or advantage applied to the enemy caster's roll.
The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one
direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a
result. (Basic Rules, p. 57, Advantage/Disadvantage)
If the two spells were of the same level, or were the same spell ...
This situation would fit the Contest rules.
Contests
Sometimes one character’s or monster’s efforts are directly opposed to
another’s. This can occur when both of them are trying to do the same
thing and only one can succeed, ...(Basic Rules, p. 58)
Since the two spell casters are contesting control of the fighter, have them roll an ability check under the contest rules (spellcasting ability vs spellcasting ability) presuming that the fighter failed the saving throw versus the enemy spell caster.
Both participants in a contest make ability checks appropriate to
their efforts. They apply all appropriate bonuses and penalties, but
instead of comparing the total to a DC, they compare the totals of
their two checks. The participant with the higher check total wins the
contest. That character or monster either succeeds at the action or
prevents the other one from succeeding.
answered 2 hours ago
KorvinStarmast
66.7k15211368
There isn't a general answer
You need to compare the spell effects where different spells are in opposition to each other. In this case, when the friendly wizard gives the Fighter a suggestion, the Fighter is already dominated by the other wizard. Their decision making has been taken over by that domination.
You can use your action to take total and precise control of the target. Until the end of your next turn, the creature takes only the actions you choose, and doesn’t do anything that you don’t allow it to do. During this time you can also cause the creature to use a reaction, but this requires you to use your own reaction as well. (Basic Rules, Dominate p. 88-89)
The bolded text would be hard to overwrite by a suggestion, since the Fighter would be trying to do something different than the enemy wizard would allow him to do.
You suggest a course of activity... The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell. (Basic Rules, p. 102)
Suggestion does not appear, by the rules text, to overwrite the control being exercised by the wizard who cast dominate.
Can the DM rule otherwise? Sure.
If the DM wants to give this a chance to succeed, the ruling ought to account for the differing levels in power and magical effect between the two spells.
Consider this: dispel magic is a 3rd level spell that requires either
a 5th level slot be expended, or that DC 15 ability check succeed to
overcome a 5th level spell; you would expect Suggestion (a second level spell) to have a harder time than dispel magic if it even could succeed).
For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability
check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s
level. On a successful check, the spell ends. (Dispel Magic, spell description, p. 88 Basic Rules)
At best this would be a contest (as outlined below) with disadvantage applied to the friendly wizard's roll, or advantage applied to the enemy caster's roll.
The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one
direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a
result. (Basic Rules, p. 57, Advantage/Disadvantage)
If the two spells were of the same level, or were the same spell ...
This situation would fit the Contest rules.
Contests
Sometimes one character’s or monster’s efforts are directly opposed to
another’s. This can occur when both of them are trying to do the same
thing and only one can succeed, ...(Basic Rules, p. 58)
Since the two spell casters are contesting control of the fighter, have them roll an ability check under the contest rules (spellcasting ability vs spellcasting ability) presuming that the fighter failed the saving throw versus the enemy spell caster.
Both participants in a contest make ability checks appropriate to
their efforts. They apply all appropriate bonuses and penalties, but
instead of comparing the total to a DC, they compare the totals of
their two checks. The participant with the higher check total wins the
contest. That character or monster either succeeds at the action or
prevents the other one from succeeding.
answered 2 hours ago
KorvinStarmast
66.7k15211368
edited 1 hour ago
answered 2 hours ago
KorvinStarmast
66.7k15211368
answered 2 hours ago
KorvinStarmast
66.7k15211368
answered 2 hours ago
KorvinStarmast
66.7k15211368
66.7k15211368
4
How would or (or would you) handle the spell level difference in terms of power? Giving equal power between a 5th and 2nd level spell seems potentially problematic. And also how are you handling the Fighter being given the suggestion, but they are dominated by a 3rd party. Their own personal desires have already been removed, no?
– NautArch
2 hours ago
1
"save DC vs save DC" should be "spellcasting ability vs spellcasting ability"
– Szega
2 hours ago
I think you're right in that there isn't a clear answer, but making it more explicit that it's a DM's call at this point and what things to consider when evaluating seems like the right way to go here.
– NautArch
1 hour ago
@NautArch Done as suggested.
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
@Szega Fixed as suggested
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
4
How would or (or would you) handle the spell level difference in terms of power? Giving equal power between a 5th and 2nd level spell seems potentially problematic. And also how are you handling the Fighter being given the suggestion, but they are dominated by a 3rd party. Their own personal desires have already been removed, no?
– NautArch
2 hours ago
1
"save DC vs save DC" should be "spellcasting ability vs spellcasting ability"
– Szega
2 hours ago
I think you're right in that there isn't a clear answer, but making it more explicit that it's a DM's call at this point and what things to consider when evaluating seems like the right way to go here.
– NautArch
1 hour ago
@NautArch Done as suggested.
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
@Szega Fixed as suggested
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
4
4
How would or (or would you) handle the spell level difference in terms of power? Giving equal power between a 5th and 2nd level spell seems potentially problematic. And also how are you handling the Fighter being given the suggestion, but they are dominated by a 3rd party. Their own personal desires have already been removed, no?
– NautArch
2 hours ago
How would or (or would you) handle the spell level difference in terms of power? Giving equal power between a 5th and 2nd level spell seems potentially problematic. And also how are you handling the Fighter being given the suggestion, but they are dominated by a 3rd party. Their own personal desires have already been removed, no?
– NautArch
2 hours ago
1
1
"save DC vs save DC" should be "spellcasting ability vs spellcasting ability"
– Szega
2 hours ago
"save DC vs save DC" should be "spellcasting ability vs spellcasting ability"
– Szega
2 hours ago
I think you're right in that there isn't a clear answer, but making it more explicit that it's a DM's call at this point and what things to consider when evaluating seems like the right way to go here.
– NautArch
1 hour ago
I think you're right in that there isn't a clear answer, but making it more explicit that it's a DM's call at this point and what things to consider when evaluating seems like the right way to go here.
– NautArch
1 hour ago
@NautArch Done as suggested.
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
@NautArch Done as suggested.
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
@Szega Fixed as suggested
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
@Szega Fixed as suggested
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
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3
This is not a good example, as suggestion has to be reasonable and I would say that going against an absolute order is not so.
– Szega
2 hours ago