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What happens if only rudder is applied in a turn without ailerons? Do the two have to be applied together all the time?
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Fresh newbie in glider flying. I was told the joystick (aileron) and the pedal (rudder) should always be applied together when making a turn. My question is, what happens if I only pedals the rudder without applying the stick (aileron)? How is it different from applying only the aileron but not the rudder? And are there times when we should apply just one of the two?
glider rudder sailplane
asked 7 hours ago
gadfly
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Fresh newbie in glider flying. I was told the joystick (aileron) and the pedal (rudder) should always be applied together when making a turn. My question is, what happens if I only pedals the rudder without applying the stick (aileron)? How is it different from applying only the aileron but not the rudder? And are there times when we should apply just one of the two?
glider rudder sailplane
asked 7 hours ago
gadfly
163
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gadfly is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Dupe of Can some planes turn using just the rudder or without banking? Which itself is marked as a dupe of Are the functions of ailerons and rudder similar?
– TomMcW
5 hours ago
@TomMcW Are you saying that this answer post completely answers the question asked here? I think it clearly doesn't, and my understanding is that a question is only considered a "duplicate" if there is an answer post on another question which answers it.
– Tanner Swett
57 mins ago
@TannerSwett I’d saywhen you apply say left rudder the plane will bank left and turn left but you have to control the turn rate by power and rudderanswers most of it. The last part is new, and maybe the question should be edited to focus on that part. But I’m the only VTC so far, so it will prob remain open anyway
– TomMcW
44 mins ago
Possible duplicate of Can some planes turn using just the rudder or without banking?
– Ralph J
38 mins ago
@TomMcW Well, that does answer the question of "what happens if I only use the rudder and not the ailerons", but not in enough detail, if you ask me. It doesn't answer the question of "are there times when we should apply just one of the two" at all.
– Tanner Swett
23 mins ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
Fresh newbie in glider flying. I was told the joystick (aileron) and the pedal (rudder) should always be applied together when making a turn. My question is, what happens if I only pedals the rudder without applying the stick (aileron)? How is it different from applying only the aileron but not the rudder? And are there times when we should apply just one of the two?
glider rudder sailplane
asked 7 hours ago
gadfly
163
New contributor
gadfly is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Fresh newbie in glider flying. I was told the joystick (aileron) and the pedal (rudder) should always be applied together when making a turn. My question is, what happens if I only pedals the rudder without applying the stick (aileron)? How is it different from applying only the aileron but not the rudder? And are there times when we should apply just one of the two?
glider rudder sailplane
glider rudder sailplane
asked 7 hours ago
gadfly
163
New contributor
gadfly is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 7 hours ago
gadfly
163
New contributor
gadfly is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 6 mins ago
asked 7 hours ago
gadfly
163
New contributor
gadfly is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 7 hours ago
gadfly
163
asked 7 hours ago
gadfly
163
163
New contributor
gadfly is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
gadfly is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
gadfly is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Dupe of Can some planes turn using just the rudder or without banking? Which itself is marked as a dupe of Are the functions of ailerons and rudder similar?
– TomMcW
5 hours ago
@TomMcW Are you saying that this answer post completely answers the question asked here? I think it clearly doesn't, and my understanding is that a question is only considered a "duplicate" if there is an answer post on another question which answers it.
– Tanner Swett
57 mins ago
@TannerSwett I’d saywhen you apply say left rudder the plane will bank left and turn left but you have to control the turn rate by power and rudderanswers most of it. The last part is new, and maybe the question should be edited to focus on that part. But I’m the only VTC so far, so it will prob remain open anyway
– TomMcW
44 mins ago
Possible duplicate of Can some planes turn using just the rudder or without banking?
– Ralph J
38 mins ago
@TomMcW Well, that does answer the question of "what happens if I only use the rudder and not the ailerons", but not in enough detail, if you ask me. It doesn't answer the question of "are there times when we should apply just one of the two" at all.
– Tanner Swett
23 mins ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
Dupe of Can some planes turn using just the rudder or without banking? Which itself is marked as a dupe of Are the functions of ailerons and rudder similar?
– TomMcW
5 hours ago
@TomMcW Are you saying that this answer post completely answers the question asked here? I think it clearly doesn't, and my understanding is that a question is only considered a "duplicate" if there is an answer post on another question which answers it.
– Tanner Swett
57 mins ago
@TannerSwett I’d saywhen you apply say left rudder the plane will bank left and turn left but you have to control the turn rate by power and rudderanswers most of it. The last part is new, and maybe the question should be edited to focus on that part. But I’m the only VTC so far, so it will prob remain open anyway
– TomMcW
44 mins ago
Possible duplicate of Can some planes turn using just the rudder or without banking?
– Ralph J
38 mins ago
@TomMcW Well, that does answer the question of "what happens if I only use the rudder and not the ailerons", but not in enough detail, if you ask me. It doesn't answer the question of "are there times when we should apply just one of the two" at all.
– Tanner Swett
23 mins ago
Dupe of Can some planes turn using just the rudder or without banking? Which itself is marked as a dupe of Are the functions of ailerons and rudder similar?
– TomMcW
5 hours ago
Dupe of Can some planes turn using just the rudder or without banking? Which itself is marked as a dupe of Are the functions of ailerons and rudder similar?
– TomMcW
5 hours ago
@TomMcW Are you saying that this answer post completely answers the question asked here? I think it clearly doesn't, and my understanding is that a question is only considered a "duplicate" if there is an answer post on another question which answers it.
– Tanner Swett
57 mins ago
@TomMcW Are you saying that this answer post completely answers the question asked here? I think it clearly doesn't, and my understanding is that a question is only considered a "duplicate" if there is an answer post on another question which answers it.
– Tanner Swett
57 mins ago
@TannerSwett I’d say
when you apply say left rudder the plane will bank left and turn left but you have to control the turn rate by power and rudder answers most of it. The last part is new, and maybe the question should be edited to focus on that part. But I’m the only VTC so far, so it will prob remain open anyway– TomMcW
44 mins ago
@TannerSwett I’d say
when you apply say left rudder the plane will bank left and turn left but you have to control the turn rate by power and rudder answers most of it. The last part is new, and maybe the question should be edited to focus on that part. But I’m the only VTC so far, so it will prob remain open anyway– TomMcW
44 mins ago
Possible duplicate of Can some planes turn using just the rudder or without banking?
– Ralph J
38 mins ago
Possible duplicate of Can some planes turn using just the rudder or without banking?
– Ralph J
38 mins ago
@TomMcW Well, that does answer the question of "what happens if I only use the rudder and not the ailerons", but not in enough detail, if you ask me. It doesn't answer the question of "are there times when we should apply just one of the two" at all.
– Tanner Swett
23 mins ago
@TomMcW Well, that does answer the question of "what happens if I only use the rudder and not the ailerons", but not in enough detail, if you ask me. It doesn't answer the question of "are there times when we should apply just one of the two" at all.
– Tanner Swett
23 mins ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
3 Answers
3
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up vote
3
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To turn – any vehicle, not just an airplane – you need to generate corresponding centripetal force.
When you only apply rudder, the plane will turn a bit, but because unlike boat it has no keel, it will not generate much centripetal force, just fly somewhat sideways, which is called a skid. It will produce more drag this way.
Now any well designed plane has yaw-roll coupling, which will cause it to bank into the turn anyway. It is caused by the slight increase in speed of the outside wing, and the dihedral most wings have resulting in increase in angle of attack, thereby increasing lift on the outside wing. So you can make the plane turn with just the rudder, but it will be inefficient, and it will be slower as the yaw-roll coupling will take its time.
On the other hand if you apply just the aileron, the plane will bank into the turn as usual. However, there will be some slip, as the deflected ailerons cause an adverse yaw – the aileron deflected down, which is on the outside wing, causes more drag – so the plane will actually turn a little less than it should. Like skid, that will cause extra drag.
What you want to do is bank into the turn with ailerons, and use rudder to compensate the various drag asymmetries to keep the slip-skid ball centered. That will give you least drag. Different planes will need slightly different application of rudder.
answered 6 hours ago
Jan Hudec
36.9k394179
Thanks. How about designing gliders (or airplanes) such that the aileron and the rudder are controlled together and move simultaneously, since they need to do so anyway?
– gadfly
6 hours ago
1
@gadfly There are airplanes that are designed like that. One problem with designing a glider like that is that on the ground, you need to be able to steer (using the rudder) and keep the wings level (using the ailerons) independently. Another problem is that it's useful for a glider to be able to deliberately fly uncoordinated, in order to lose altitude.
– Tanner Swett
6 hours ago
@gadfly One airplane that has no rudder pedals and interconnected aileron/rudder is the Ercoupe. aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/aircraft-fact-sheets/…
– JScarry
5 hours ago
1
@gadfly A properly coordinated turn requires the right amount of rudder for a given amount of aileron, which may not always be in fixed proportion, or even a fixed curve (as might be accomodated via a cam). The best solution is to leave the controls independent and allow the pilot to center the string (or ball), or not (if performing a sideslip, which can require opposed control inputs).
– Anthony X
4 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
With just rudder, your tail will kick out to one side, and you'll kind of skid around a turn in a really draggy manner.
With just aileron, the plane will turn but the tail will droop to the inside of the turn, also a kind of draggy maneuver.
When you coordinate both, the plane banks and the tail moves the fuselage around the turn in a nice smooth circle.
answered 6 hours ago
CrossRoads
3,2811315
Thanks. So would it be right to say that the two are always applied together, without exception?
– gadfly
6 hours ago
@gadfly Not necessarily. If you are flying an instrument approach and need to make small corrections to keep the needle centered, you might use just the rudder to get back on course. It’s usually for changes in heading of less than 5°.
– JScarry
5 hours ago
1
@gadfly Another exception to the rule of using the aileron and rudder together in a coordinated turn is when you user a slip to counteract a crosswind when landing. Also, light aircraft, especially those without flaps, might use a slip to produce steeper glidepath.
– Terry
3 hours ago
Even those of us With flaps use slip for steeper glidepath, to lose altitude, or to slow down some.
– CrossRoads
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
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If you apply (say) right rudder without any aileron input, the immediate effect is that the aircraft will yaw: the nose will swing to the right.
Note that this does not mean that the aircraft will turn! In the first moments after the aircraft yaws, the nose is now pointed off to the right while the aircraft continues to travel in its original direction. What the aircraft will "feel" is that the air is now blowing on it from the front left instead of head-on. We say that the aircraft is slipping to the left, because its track (the direction in which it is traveling) is to the left of its heading (the direction that the nose is pointing).
So, you have stepped on the right rudder pedal, causing the aircraft to yaw right and slip left. This has the following consequences:
- Your instruments will indicate a slip to the left. The yaw string will indicate this by moving to the right (meaning that the "head" of the yaw string will point to the left.) The inclinometer (the "ball in a tube") will indicate this by moving to the left. And your inner ear and body will indicate this by telling you that the centrifugal force from the turn is pushing you to the left.
- Drag will increase dramatically; you will either slow down or descend more quickly, depending on what you do with the pitch.
- Body lift. Since the oncoming air is blowing on the aircraft from the left, this will push on the aircraft and turn it to the right. (This pushing force is what causes the inclinometer to move, and your body and inner ear to feel the sensations I mentioned above.) This is, of course, not the "normal" way to turn an aircraft.
- Dihedral effect. The air blowing from the left will cause the aircraft to roll right. (Here's one way to think of this. The tips of the wings are "high up" compared to the rest of the aircraft. So when there's air coming from the left, it will push the wingtips to the right, causing the aircraft to roll right.)
Slipping is the same thing as being in uncoordinated flight. Being in uncoordinated flight presents two problems. The first problem is that it creates a lot of drag. (Sometimes you want drag, of course.) The second problem is that if the aircraft stalls while in uncoordinated flight, the downwind wing will stall first, which can produce a snap roll or a spin. Snap rolls and spins can both be recovered from, but if they happen close to the ground, the results can be fatal.
Using just the rudder and not the ailerons has some uses:
- When you recover from a turning stall, after regaining speed, you should level the wings by leaving the ailerons alone and applying rudder towards the sky. We use the rudder here because using the ailerons can exacerbate a stall.
- The procedure for recovering from a spin involves using rudder opposite the spin while leaving the ailerons neutral.
Using the rudder along with opposite aileron will produce a straight slip, which is useful for deliberately losing altitude or for landing in a crosswind.
As for applying ailerons without rudder: applying (say) left aileron without rudder will have a similar effect to applying right rudder without aileron. In fact, left aileron without rudder may even cause the aircraft to yaw to the right. (This is called adverse yaw.) As far as I know, the only difference is that the aircraft will bank to the left, which will ultimately result in a left turn instead of a right turn. The dihedral effect will still happen, just as if you had given right rudder; since you're pushing the stick to the left, this means that the dihedral effect is resisting your attempt to bank left.
Finally, on the ground, pretty much all of what I just said goes out the window. On the ground, the rudder is used to steer the aircraft and the ailerons are used to keep the wings level. Unlike in the air, while you're on the ground, yawing the aircraft will cause it to turn immediately, thanks to the wheel.
answered 6 hours ago
Tanner Swett
697516
Minor Q: "slipping to the left" vs "slipping to port" ? What's more common?
– Criggie
3 hours ago
"Left" is definitely far more common. I almost never hear "port" and "starboard" used in reference to aircraft.
– Tanner Swett
2 hours ago
Thank you for the elaborate answer. I would not be satisfied with a short answer.
– gadfly
3 mins ago
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
To turn – any vehicle, not just an airplane – you need to generate corresponding centripetal force.
When you only apply rudder, the plane will turn a bit, but because unlike boat it has no keel, it will not generate much centripetal force, just fly somewhat sideways, which is called a skid. It will produce more drag this way.
Now any well designed plane has yaw-roll coupling, which will cause it to bank into the turn anyway. It is caused by the slight increase in speed of the outside wing, and the dihedral most wings have resulting in increase in angle of attack, thereby increasing lift on the outside wing. So you can make the plane turn with just the rudder, but it will be inefficient, and it will be slower as the yaw-roll coupling will take its time.
On the other hand if you apply just the aileron, the plane will bank into the turn as usual. However, there will be some slip, as the deflected ailerons cause an adverse yaw – the aileron deflected down, which is on the outside wing, causes more drag – so the plane will actually turn a little less than it should. Like skid, that will cause extra drag.
What you want to do is bank into the turn with ailerons, and use rudder to compensate the various drag asymmetries to keep the slip-skid ball centered. That will give you least drag. Different planes will need slightly different application of rudder.
answered 6 hours ago
Jan Hudec
36.9k394179
Thanks. How about designing gliders (or airplanes) such that the aileron and the rudder are controlled together and move simultaneously, since they need to do so anyway?
– gadfly
6 hours ago
1
@gadfly There are airplanes that are designed like that. One problem with designing a glider like that is that on the ground, you need to be able to steer (using the rudder) and keep the wings level (using the ailerons) independently. Another problem is that it's useful for a glider to be able to deliberately fly uncoordinated, in order to lose altitude.
– Tanner Swett
6 hours ago
@gadfly One airplane that has no rudder pedals and interconnected aileron/rudder is the Ercoupe. aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/aircraft-fact-sheets/…
– JScarry
5 hours ago
1
@gadfly A properly coordinated turn requires the right amount of rudder for a given amount of aileron, which may not always be in fixed proportion, or even a fixed curve (as might be accomodated via a cam). The best solution is to leave the controls independent and allow the pilot to center the string (or ball), or not (if performing a sideslip, which can require opposed control inputs).
– Anthony X
4 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
To turn – any vehicle, not just an airplane – you need to generate corresponding centripetal force.
When you only apply rudder, the plane will turn a bit, but because unlike boat it has no keel, it will not generate much centripetal force, just fly somewhat sideways, which is called a skid. It will produce more drag this way.
Now any well designed plane has yaw-roll coupling, which will cause it to bank into the turn anyway. It is caused by the slight increase in speed of the outside wing, and the dihedral most wings have resulting in increase in angle of attack, thereby increasing lift on the outside wing. So you can make the plane turn with just the rudder, but it will be inefficient, and it will be slower as the yaw-roll coupling will take its time.
On the other hand if you apply just the aileron, the plane will bank into the turn as usual. However, there will be some slip, as the deflected ailerons cause an adverse yaw – the aileron deflected down, which is on the outside wing, causes more drag – so the plane will actually turn a little less than it should. Like skid, that will cause extra drag.
What you want to do is bank into the turn with ailerons, and use rudder to compensate the various drag asymmetries to keep the slip-skid ball centered. That will give you least drag. Different planes will need slightly different application of rudder.
answered 6 hours ago
Jan Hudec
36.9k394179
Thanks. How about designing gliders (or airplanes) such that the aileron and the rudder are controlled together and move simultaneously, since they need to do so anyway?
– gadfly
6 hours ago
1
@gadfly There are airplanes that are designed like that. One problem with designing a glider like that is that on the ground, you need to be able to steer (using the rudder) and keep the wings level (using the ailerons) independently. Another problem is that it's useful for a glider to be able to deliberately fly uncoordinated, in order to lose altitude.
– Tanner Swett
6 hours ago
@gadfly One airplane that has no rudder pedals and interconnected aileron/rudder is the Ercoupe. aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/aircraft-fact-sheets/…
– JScarry
5 hours ago
1
@gadfly A properly coordinated turn requires the right amount of rudder for a given amount of aileron, which may not always be in fixed proportion, or even a fixed curve (as might be accomodated via a cam). The best solution is to leave the controls independent and allow the pilot to center the string (or ball), or not (if performing a sideslip, which can require opposed control inputs).
– Anthony X
4 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
To turn – any vehicle, not just an airplane – you need to generate corresponding centripetal force.
When you only apply rudder, the plane will turn a bit, but because unlike boat it has no keel, it will not generate much centripetal force, just fly somewhat sideways, which is called a skid. It will produce more drag this way.
Now any well designed plane has yaw-roll coupling, which will cause it to bank into the turn anyway. It is caused by the slight increase in speed of the outside wing, and the dihedral most wings have resulting in increase in angle of attack, thereby increasing lift on the outside wing. So you can make the plane turn with just the rudder, but it will be inefficient, and it will be slower as the yaw-roll coupling will take its time.
On the other hand if you apply just the aileron, the plane will bank into the turn as usual. However, there will be some slip, as the deflected ailerons cause an adverse yaw – the aileron deflected down, which is on the outside wing, causes more drag – so the plane will actually turn a little less than it should. Like skid, that will cause extra drag.
What you want to do is bank into the turn with ailerons, and use rudder to compensate the various drag asymmetries to keep the slip-skid ball centered. That will give you least drag. Different planes will need slightly different application of rudder.
answered 6 hours ago
Jan Hudec
36.9k394179
To turn – any vehicle, not just an airplane – you need to generate corresponding centripetal force.
When you only apply rudder, the plane will turn a bit, but because unlike boat it has no keel, it will not generate much centripetal force, just fly somewhat sideways, which is called a skid. It will produce more drag this way.
Now any well designed plane has yaw-roll coupling, which will cause it to bank into the turn anyway. It is caused by the slight increase in speed of the outside wing, and the dihedral most wings have resulting in increase in angle of attack, thereby increasing lift on the outside wing. So you can make the plane turn with just the rudder, but it will be inefficient, and it will be slower as the yaw-roll coupling will take its time.
On the other hand if you apply just the aileron, the plane will bank into the turn as usual. However, there will be some slip, as the deflected ailerons cause an adverse yaw – the aileron deflected down, which is on the outside wing, causes more drag – so the plane will actually turn a little less than it should. Like skid, that will cause extra drag.
What you want to do is bank into the turn with ailerons, and use rudder to compensate the various drag asymmetries to keep the slip-skid ball centered. That will give you least drag. Different planes will need slightly different application of rudder.
answered 6 hours ago
Jan Hudec
36.9k394179
answered 6 hours ago
Jan Hudec
36.9k394179
answered 6 hours ago
Jan Hudec
36.9k394179
answered 6 hours ago
Jan Hudec
36.9k394179
36.9k394179
Thanks. How about designing gliders (or airplanes) such that the aileron and the rudder are controlled together and move simultaneously, since they need to do so anyway?
– gadfly
6 hours ago
1
@gadfly There are airplanes that are designed like that. One problem with designing a glider like that is that on the ground, you need to be able to steer (using the rudder) and keep the wings level (using the ailerons) independently. Another problem is that it's useful for a glider to be able to deliberately fly uncoordinated, in order to lose altitude.
– Tanner Swett
6 hours ago
@gadfly One airplane that has no rudder pedals and interconnected aileron/rudder is the Ercoupe. aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/aircraft-fact-sheets/…
– JScarry
5 hours ago
1
@gadfly A properly coordinated turn requires the right amount of rudder for a given amount of aileron, which may not always be in fixed proportion, or even a fixed curve (as might be accomodated via a cam). The best solution is to leave the controls independent and allow the pilot to center the string (or ball), or not (if performing a sideslip, which can require opposed control inputs).
– Anthony X
4 hours ago
add a comment |Â
Thanks. How about designing gliders (or airplanes) such that the aileron and the rudder are controlled together and move simultaneously, since they need to do so anyway?
– gadfly
6 hours ago
1
@gadfly There are airplanes that are designed like that. One problem with designing a glider like that is that on the ground, you need to be able to steer (using the rudder) and keep the wings level (using the ailerons) independently. Another problem is that it's useful for a glider to be able to deliberately fly uncoordinated, in order to lose altitude.
– Tanner Swett
6 hours ago
@gadfly One airplane that has no rudder pedals and interconnected aileron/rudder is the Ercoupe. aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/aircraft-fact-sheets/…
– JScarry
5 hours ago
1
@gadfly A properly coordinated turn requires the right amount of rudder for a given amount of aileron, which may not always be in fixed proportion, or even a fixed curve (as might be accomodated via a cam). The best solution is to leave the controls independent and allow the pilot to center the string (or ball), or not (if performing a sideslip, which can require opposed control inputs).
– Anthony X
4 hours ago
Thanks. How about designing gliders (or airplanes) such that the aileron and the rudder are controlled together and move simultaneously, since they need to do so anyway?
– gadfly
6 hours ago
Thanks. How about designing gliders (or airplanes) such that the aileron and the rudder are controlled together and move simultaneously, since they need to do so anyway?
– gadfly
6 hours ago
1
1
@gadfly There are airplanes that are designed like that. One problem with designing a glider like that is that on the ground, you need to be able to steer (using the rudder) and keep the wings level (using the ailerons) independently. Another problem is that it's useful for a glider to be able to deliberately fly uncoordinated, in order to lose altitude.
– Tanner Swett
6 hours ago
@gadfly There are airplanes that are designed like that. One problem with designing a glider like that is that on the ground, you need to be able to steer (using the rudder) and keep the wings level (using the ailerons) independently. Another problem is that it's useful for a glider to be able to deliberately fly uncoordinated, in order to lose altitude.
– Tanner Swett
6 hours ago
@gadfly One airplane that has no rudder pedals and interconnected aileron/rudder is the Ercoupe. aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/aircraft-fact-sheets/…
– JScarry
5 hours ago
@gadfly One airplane that has no rudder pedals and interconnected aileron/rudder is the Ercoupe. aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/aircraft-fact-sheets/…
– JScarry
5 hours ago
1
1
@gadfly A properly coordinated turn requires the right amount of rudder for a given amount of aileron, which may not always be in fixed proportion, or even a fixed curve (as might be accomodated via a cam). The best solution is to leave the controls independent and allow the pilot to center the string (or ball), or not (if performing a sideslip, which can require opposed control inputs).
– Anthony X
4 hours ago
@gadfly A properly coordinated turn requires the right amount of rudder for a given amount of aileron, which may not always be in fixed proportion, or even a fixed curve (as might be accomodated via a cam). The best solution is to leave the controls independent and allow the pilot to center the string (or ball), or not (if performing a sideslip, which can require opposed control inputs).
– Anthony X
4 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
With just rudder, your tail will kick out to one side, and you'll kind of skid around a turn in a really draggy manner.
With just aileron, the plane will turn but the tail will droop to the inside of the turn, also a kind of draggy maneuver.
When you coordinate both, the plane banks and the tail moves the fuselage around the turn in a nice smooth circle.
answered 6 hours ago
CrossRoads
3,2811315
Thanks. So would it be right to say that the two are always applied together, without exception?
– gadfly
6 hours ago
@gadfly Not necessarily. If you are flying an instrument approach and need to make small corrections to keep the needle centered, you might use just the rudder to get back on course. It’s usually for changes in heading of less than 5°.
– JScarry
5 hours ago
1
@gadfly Another exception to the rule of using the aileron and rudder together in a coordinated turn is when you user a slip to counteract a crosswind when landing. Also, light aircraft, especially those without flaps, might use a slip to produce steeper glidepath.
– Terry
3 hours ago
Even those of us With flaps use slip for steeper glidepath, to lose altitude, or to slow down some.
– CrossRoads
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
With just rudder, your tail will kick out to one side, and you'll kind of skid around a turn in a really draggy manner.
With just aileron, the plane will turn but the tail will droop to the inside of the turn, also a kind of draggy maneuver.
When you coordinate both, the plane banks and the tail moves the fuselage around the turn in a nice smooth circle.
answered 6 hours ago
CrossRoads
3,2811315
Thanks. So would it be right to say that the two are always applied together, without exception?
– gadfly
6 hours ago
@gadfly Not necessarily. If you are flying an instrument approach and need to make small corrections to keep the needle centered, you might use just the rudder to get back on course. It’s usually for changes in heading of less than 5°.
– JScarry
5 hours ago
1
@gadfly Another exception to the rule of using the aileron and rudder together in a coordinated turn is when you user a slip to counteract a crosswind when landing. Also, light aircraft, especially those without flaps, might use a slip to produce steeper glidepath.
– Terry
3 hours ago
Even those of us With flaps use slip for steeper glidepath, to lose altitude, or to slow down some.
– CrossRoads
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
With just rudder, your tail will kick out to one side, and you'll kind of skid around a turn in a really draggy manner.
With just aileron, the plane will turn but the tail will droop to the inside of the turn, also a kind of draggy maneuver.
When you coordinate both, the plane banks and the tail moves the fuselage around the turn in a nice smooth circle.
answered 6 hours ago
CrossRoads
3,2811315
With just rudder, your tail will kick out to one side, and you'll kind of skid around a turn in a really draggy manner.
With just aileron, the plane will turn but the tail will droop to the inside of the turn, also a kind of draggy maneuver.
When you coordinate both, the plane banks and the tail moves the fuselage around the turn in a nice smooth circle.
answered 6 hours ago
CrossRoads
3,2811315
answered 6 hours ago
CrossRoads
3,2811315
answered 6 hours ago
CrossRoads
3,2811315
answered 6 hours ago
CrossRoads
3,2811315
3,2811315
Thanks. So would it be right to say that the two are always applied together, without exception?
– gadfly
6 hours ago
@gadfly Not necessarily. If you are flying an instrument approach and need to make small corrections to keep the needle centered, you might use just the rudder to get back on course. It’s usually for changes in heading of less than 5°.
– JScarry
5 hours ago
1
@gadfly Another exception to the rule of using the aileron and rudder together in a coordinated turn is when you user a slip to counteract a crosswind when landing. Also, light aircraft, especially those without flaps, might use a slip to produce steeper glidepath.
– Terry
3 hours ago
Even those of us With flaps use slip for steeper glidepath, to lose altitude, or to slow down some.
– CrossRoads
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
Thanks. So would it be right to say that the two are always applied together, without exception?
– gadfly
6 hours ago
@gadfly Not necessarily. If you are flying an instrument approach and need to make small corrections to keep the needle centered, you might use just the rudder to get back on course. It’s usually for changes in heading of less than 5°.
– JScarry
5 hours ago
1
@gadfly Another exception to the rule of using the aileron and rudder together in a coordinated turn is when you user a slip to counteract a crosswind when landing. Also, light aircraft, especially those without flaps, might use a slip to produce steeper glidepath.
– Terry
3 hours ago
Even those of us With flaps use slip for steeper glidepath, to lose altitude, or to slow down some.
– CrossRoads
3 hours ago
Thanks. So would it be right to say that the two are always applied together, without exception?
– gadfly
6 hours ago
Thanks. So would it be right to say that the two are always applied together, without exception?
– gadfly
6 hours ago
@gadfly Not necessarily. If you are flying an instrument approach and need to make small corrections to keep the needle centered, you might use just the rudder to get back on course. It’s usually for changes in heading of less than 5°.
– JScarry
5 hours ago
@gadfly Not necessarily. If you are flying an instrument approach and need to make small corrections to keep the needle centered, you might use just the rudder to get back on course. It’s usually for changes in heading of less than 5°.
– JScarry
5 hours ago
1
1
@gadfly Another exception to the rule of using the aileron and rudder together in a coordinated turn is when you user a slip to counteract a crosswind when landing. Also, light aircraft, especially those without flaps, might use a slip to produce steeper glidepath.
– Terry
3 hours ago
@gadfly Another exception to the rule of using the aileron and rudder together in a coordinated turn is when you user a slip to counteract a crosswind when landing. Also, light aircraft, especially those without flaps, might use a slip to produce steeper glidepath.
– Terry
3 hours ago
Even those of us With flaps use slip for steeper glidepath, to lose altitude, or to slow down some.
– CrossRoads
3 hours ago
Even those of us With flaps use slip for steeper glidepath, to lose altitude, or to slow down some.
– CrossRoads
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
If you apply (say) right rudder without any aileron input, the immediate effect is that the aircraft will yaw: the nose will swing to the right.
Note that this does not mean that the aircraft will turn! In the first moments after the aircraft yaws, the nose is now pointed off to the right while the aircraft continues to travel in its original direction. What the aircraft will "feel" is that the air is now blowing on it from the front left instead of head-on. We say that the aircraft is slipping to the left, because its track (the direction in which it is traveling) is to the left of its heading (the direction that the nose is pointing).
So, you have stepped on the right rudder pedal, causing the aircraft to yaw right and slip left. This has the following consequences:
- Your instruments will indicate a slip to the left. The yaw string will indicate this by moving to the right (meaning that the "head" of the yaw string will point to the left.) The inclinometer (the "ball in a tube") will indicate this by moving to the left. And your inner ear and body will indicate this by telling you that the centrifugal force from the turn is pushing you to the left.
- Drag will increase dramatically; you will either slow down or descend more quickly, depending on what you do with the pitch.
- Body lift. Since the oncoming air is blowing on the aircraft from the left, this will push on the aircraft and turn it to the right. (This pushing force is what causes the inclinometer to move, and your body and inner ear to feel the sensations I mentioned above.) This is, of course, not the "normal" way to turn an aircraft.
- Dihedral effect. The air blowing from the left will cause the aircraft to roll right. (Here's one way to think of this. The tips of the wings are "high up" compared to the rest of the aircraft. So when there's air coming from the left, it will push the wingtips to the right, causing the aircraft to roll right.)
Slipping is the same thing as being in uncoordinated flight. Being in uncoordinated flight presents two problems. The first problem is that it creates a lot of drag. (Sometimes you want drag, of course.) The second problem is that if the aircraft stalls while in uncoordinated flight, the downwind wing will stall first, which can produce a snap roll or a spin. Snap rolls and spins can both be recovered from, but if they happen close to the ground, the results can be fatal.
Using just the rudder and not the ailerons has some uses:
- When you recover from a turning stall, after regaining speed, you should level the wings by leaving the ailerons alone and applying rudder towards the sky. We use the rudder here because using the ailerons can exacerbate a stall.
- The procedure for recovering from a spin involves using rudder opposite the spin while leaving the ailerons neutral.
Using the rudder along with opposite aileron will produce a straight slip, which is useful for deliberately losing altitude or for landing in a crosswind.
As for applying ailerons without rudder: applying (say) left aileron without rudder will have a similar effect to applying right rudder without aileron. In fact, left aileron without rudder may even cause the aircraft to yaw to the right. (This is called adverse yaw.) As far as I know, the only difference is that the aircraft will bank to the left, which will ultimately result in a left turn instead of a right turn. The dihedral effect will still happen, just as if you had given right rudder; since you're pushing the stick to the left, this means that the dihedral effect is resisting your attempt to bank left.
Finally, on the ground, pretty much all of what I just said goes out the window. On the ground, the rudder is used to steer the aircraft and the ailerons are used to keep the wings level. Unlike in the air, while you're on the ground, yawing the aircraft will cause it to turn immediately, thanks to the wheel.
answered 6 hours ago
Tanner Swett
697516
Minor Q: "slipping to the left" vs "slipping to port" ? What's more common?
– Criggie
3 hours ago
"Left" is definitely far more common. I almost never hear "port" and "starboard" used in reference to aircraft.
– Tanner Swett
2 hours ago
Thank you for the elaborate answer. I would not be satisfied with a short answer.
– gadfly
3 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
If you apply (say) right rudder without any aileron input, the immediate effect is that the aircraft will yaw: the nose will swing to the right.
Note that this does not mean that the aircraft will turn! In the first moments after the aircraft yaws, the nose is now pointed off to the right while the aircraft continues to travel in its original direction. What the aircraft will "feel" is that the air is now blowing on it from the front left instead of head-on. We say that the aircraft is slipping to the left, because its track (the direction in which it is traveling) is to the left of its heading (the direction that the nose is pointing).
So, you have stepped on the right rudder pedal, causing the aircraft to yaw right and slip left. This has the following consequences:
- Your instruments will indicate a slip to the left. The yaw string will indicate this by moving to the right (meaning that the "head" of the yaw string will point to the left.) The inclinometer (the "ball in a tube") will indicate this by moving to the left. And your inner ear and body will indicate this by telling you that the centrifugal force from the turn is pushing you to the left.
- Drag will increase dramatically; you will either slow down or descend more quickly, depending on what you do with the pitch.
- Body lift. Since the oncoming air is blowing on the aircraft from the left, this will push on the aircraft and turn it to the right. (This pushing force is what causes the inclinometer to move, and your body and inner ear to feel the sensations I mentioned above.) This is, of course, not the "normal" way to turn an aircraft.
- Dihedral effect. The air blowing from the left will cause the aircraft to roll right. (Here's one way to think of this. The tips of the wings are "high up" compared to the rest of the aircraft. So when there's air coming from the left, it will push the wingtips to the right, causing the aircraft to roll right.)
Slipping is the same thing as being in uncoordinated flight. Being in uncoordinated flight presents two problems. The first problem is that it creates a lot of drag. (Sometimes you want drag, of course.) The second problem is that if the aircraft stalls while in uncoordinated flight, the downwind wing will stall first, which can produce a snap roll or a spin. Snap rolls and spins can both be recovered from, but if they happen close to the ground, the results can be fatal.
Using just the rudder and not the ailerons has some uses:
- When you recover from a turning stall, after regaining speed, you should level the wings by leaving the ailerons alone and applying rudder towards the sky. We use the rudder here because using the ailerons can exacerbate a stall.
- The procedure for recovering from a spin involves using rudder opposite the spin while leaving the ailerons neutral.
Using the rudder along with opposite aileron will produce a straight slip, which is useful for deliberately losing altitude or for landing in a crosswind.
As for applying ailerons without rudder: applying (say) left aileron without rudder will have a similar effect to applying right rudder without aileron. In fact, left aileron without rudder may even cause the aircraft to yaw to the right. (This is called adverse yaw.) As far as I know, the only difference is that the aircraft will bank to the left, which will ultimately result in a left turn instead of a right turn. The dihedral effect will still happen, just as if you had given right rudder; since you're pushing the stick to the left, this means that the dihedral effect is resisting your attempt to bank left.
Finally, on the ground, pretty much all of what I just said goes out the window. On the ground, the rudder is used to steer the aircraft and the ailerons are used to keep the wings level. Unlike in the air, while you're on the ground, yawing the aircraft will cause it to turn immediately, thanks to the wheel.
answered 6 hours ago
Tanner Swett
697516
Minor Q: "slipping to the left" vs "slipping to port" ? What's more common?
– Criggie
3 hours ago
"Left" is definitely far more common. I almost never hear "port" and "starboard" used in reference to aircraft.
– Tanner Swett
2 hours ago
Thank you for the elaborate answer. I would not be satisfied with a short answer.
– gadfly
3 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
If you apply (say) right rudder without any aileron input, the immediate effect is that the aircraft will yaw: the nose will swing to the right.
Note that this does not mean that the aircraft will turn! In the first moments after the aircraft yaws, the nose is now pointed off to the right while the aircraft continues to travel in its original direction. What the aircraft will "feel" is that the air is now blowing on it from the front left instead of head-on. We say that the aircraft is slipping to the left, because its track (the direction in which it is traveling) is to the left of its heading (the direction that the nose is pointing).
So, you have stepped on the right rudder pedal, causing the aircraft to yaw right and slip left. This has the following consequences:
- Your instruments will indicate a slip to the left. The yaw string will indicate this by moving to the right (meaning that the "head" of the yaw string will point to the left.) The inclinometer (the "ball in a tube") will indicate this by moving to the left. And your inner ear and body will indicate this by telling you that the centrifugal force from the turn is pushing you to the left.
- Drag will increase dramatically; you will either slow down or descend more quickly, depending on what you do with the pitch.
- Body lift. Since the oncoming air is blowing on the aircraft from the left, this will push on the aircraft and turn it to the right. (This pushing force is what causes the inclinometer to move, and your body and inner ear to feel the sensations I mentioned above.) This is, of course, not the "normal" way to turn an aircraft.
- Dihedral effect. The air blowing from the left will cause the aircraft to roll right. (Here's one way to think of this. The tips of the wings are "high up" compared to the rest of the aircraft. So when there's air coming from the left, it will push the wingtips to the right, causing the aircraft to roll right.)
Slipping is the same thing as being in uncoordinated flight. Being in uncoordinated flight presents two problems. The first problem is that it creates a lot of drag. (Sometimes you want drag, of course.) The second problem is that if the aircraft stalls while in uncoordinated flight, the downwind wing will stall first, which can produce a snap roll or a spin. Snap rolls and spins can both be recovered from, but if they happen close to the ground, the results can be fatal.
Using just the rudder and not the ailerons has some uses:
- When you recover from a turning stall, after regaining speed, you should level the wings by leaving the ailerons alone and applying rudder towards the sky. We use the rudder here because using the ailerons can exacerbate a stall.
- The procedure for recovering from a spin involves using rudder opposite the spin while leaving the ailerons neutral.
Using the rudder along with opposite aileron will produce a straight slip, which is useful for deliberately losing altitude or for landing in a crosswind.
As for applying ailerons without rudder: applying (say) left aileron without rudder will have a similar effect to applying right rudder without aileron. In fact, left aileron without rudder may even cause the aircraft to yaw to the right. (This is called adverse yaw.) As far as I know, the only difference is that the aircraft will bank to the left, which will ultimately result in a left turn instead of a right turn. The dihedral effect will still happen, just as if you had given right rudder; since you're pushing the stick to the left, this means that the dihedral effect is resisting your attempt to bank left.
Finally, on the ground, pretty much all of what I just said goes out the window. On the ground, the rudder is used to steer the aircraft and the ailerons are used to keep the wings level. Unlike in the air, while you're on the ground, yawing the aircraft will cause it to turn immediately, thanks to the wheel.
answered 6 hours ago
Tanner Swett
697516
If you apply (say) right rudder without any aileron input, the immediate effect is that the aircraft will yaw: the nose will swing to the right.
Note that this does not mean that the aircraft will turn! In the first moments after the aircraft yaws, the nose is now pointed off to the right while the aircraft continues to travel in its original direction. What the aircraft will "feel" is that the air is now blowing on it from the front left instead of head-on. We say that the aircraft is slipping to the left, because its track (the direction in which it is traveling) is to the left of its heading (the direction that the nose is pointing).
So, you have stepped on the right rudder pedal, causing the aircraft to yaw right and slip left. This has the following consequences:
- Your instruments will indicate a slip to the left. The yaw string will indicate this by moving to the right (meaning that the "head" of the yaw string will point to the left.) The inclinometer (the "ball in a tube") will indicate this by moving to the left. And your inner ear and body will indicate this by telling you that the centrifugal force from the turn is pushing you to the left.
- Drag will increase dramatically; you will either slow down or descend more quickly, depending on what you do with the pitch.
- Body lift. Since the oncoming air is blowing on the aircraft from the left, this will push on the aircraft and turn it to the right. (This pushing force is what causes the inclinometer to move, and your body and inner ear to feel the sensations I mentioned above.) This is, of course, not the "normal" way to turn an aircraft.
- Dihedral effect. The air blowing from the left will cause the aircraft to roll right. (Here's one way to think of this. The tips of the wings are "high up" compared to the rest of the aircraft. So when there's air coming from the left, it will push the wingtips to the right, causing the aircraft to roll right.)
Slipping is the same thing as being in uncoordinated flight. Being in uncoordinated flight presents two problems. The first problem is that it creates a lot of drag. (Sometimes you want drag, of course.) The second problem is that if the aircraft stalls while in uncoordinated flight, the downwind wing will stall first, which can produce a snap roll or a spin. Snap rolls and spins can both be recovered from, but if they happen close to the ground, the results can be fatal.
Using just the rudder and not the ailerons has some uses:
- When you recover from a turning stall, after regaining speed, you should level the wings by leaving the ailerons alone and applying rudder towards the sky. We use the rudder here because using the ailerons can exacerbate a stall.
- The procedure for recovering from a spin involves using rudder opposite the spin while leaving the ailerons neutral.
Using the rudder along with opposite aileron will produce a straight slip, which is useful for deliberately losing altitude or for landing in a crosswind.
As for applying ailerons without rudder: applying (say) left aileron without rudder will have a similar effect to applying right rudder without aileron. In fact, left aileron without rudder may even cause the aircraft to yaw to the right. (This is called adverse yaw.) As far as I know, the only difference is that the aircraft will bank to the left, which will ultimately result in a left turn instead of a right turn. The dihedral effect will still happen, just as if you had given right rudder; since you're pushing the stick to the left, this means that the dihedral effect is resisting your attempt to bank left.
Finally, on the ground, pretty much all of what I just said goes out the window. On the ground, the rudder is used to steer the aircraft and the ailerons are used to keep the wings level. Unlike in the air, while you're on the ground, yawing the aircraft will cause it to turn immediately, thanks to the wheel.
answered 6 hours ago
Tanner Swett
697516
answered 6 hours ago
Tanner Swett
697516
answered 6 hours ago
Tanner Swett
697516
answered 6 hours ago
Tanner Swett
697516
697516
Minor Q: "slipping to the left" vs "slipping to port" ? What's more common?
– Criggie
3 hours ago
"Left" is definitely far more common. I almost never hear "port" and "starboard" used in reference to aircraft.
– Tanner Swett
2 hours ago
Thank you for the elaborate answer. I would not be satisfied with a short answer.
– gadfly
3 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Minor Q: "slipping to the left" vs "slipping to port" ? What's more common?
– Criggie
3 hours ago
"Left" is definitely far more common. I almost never hear "port" and "starboard" used in reference to aircraft.
– Tanner Swett
2 hours ago
Thank you for the elaborate answer. I would not be satisfied with a short answer.
– gadfly
3 mins ago
Minor Q: "slipping to the left" vs "slipping to port" ? What's more common?
– Criggie
3 hours ago
Minor Q: "slipping to the left" vs "slipping to port" ? What's more common?
– Criggie
3 hours ago
"Left" is definitely far more common. I almost never hear "port" and "starboard" used in reference to aircraft.
– Tanner Swett
2 hours ago
"Left" is definitely far more common. I almost never hear "port" and "starboard" used in reference to aircraft.
– Tanner Swett
2 hours ago
Thank you for the elaborate answer. I would not be satisfied with a short answer.
– gadfly
3 mins ago
Thank you for the elaborate answer. I would not be satisfied with a short answer.
– gadfly
3 mins ago
add a comment |Â
gadfly is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
gadfly is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
gadfly is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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Dupe of Can some planes turn using just the rudder or without banking? Which itself is marked as a dupe of Are the functions of ailerons and rudder similar?
– TomMcW
5 hours ago
@TomMcW Are you saying that this answer post completely answers the question asked here? I think it clearly doesn't, and my understanding is that a question is only considered a "duplicate" if there is an answer post on another question which answers it.
– Tanner Swett
57 mins ago
@TannerSwett I’d say
when you apply say left rudder the plane will bank left and turn left but you have to control the turn rate by power and rudderanswers most of it. The last part is new, and maybe the question should be edited to focus on that part. But I’m the only VTC so far, so it will prob remain open anyway– TomMcW
44 mins ago
Possible duplicate of Can some planes turn using just the rudder or without banking?
– Ralph J
38 mins ago
@TomMcW Well, that does answer the question of "what happens if I only use the rudder and not the ailerons", but not in enough detail, if you ask me. It doesn't answer the question of "are there times when we should apply just one of the two" at all.
– Tanner Swett
23 mins ago