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Is there a 'dead zone' in meditation effort?
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Is there a 'dead zone' in meditation and the effort applied? So to explain
Going from no meditation at all to meditating even a bit (10 mins every few days) - benefits felt quickly
Going up to intense meditation in a retreat situation (meditating many hours a day for several days to several weeks) - benefits felt and quite long lasting
Meditating for an intermediate amount -(meditating 30 mins a day 5-7 days a week over months / years) - meditator plateaus and feels stuck. Little benefit felt
This is just my experience but I'm wondering is it a thing - has this been pointed out in any texts or by established teachers. Or is it just me?
Many Thanks
meditation-effects meditation-hindrances
asked 5 hours ago
Crab Bucket
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up vote
1
down vote
favorite
Is there a 'dead zone' in meditation and the effort applied? So to explain
Going from no meditation at all to meditating even a bit (10 mins every few days) - benefits felt quickly
Going up to intense meditation in a retreat situation (meditating many hours a day for several days to several weeks) - benefits felt and quite long lasting
Meditating for an intermediate amount -(meditating 30 mins a day 5-7 days a week over months / years) - meditator plateaus and feels stuck. Little benefit felt
This is just my experience but I'm wondering is it a thing - has this been pointed out in any texts or by established teachers. Or is it just me?
Many Thanks
meditation-effects meditation-hindrances
asked 5 hours ago
Crab Bucket
12.8k537116
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
Is there a 'dead zone' in meditation and the effort applied? So to explain
Going from no meditation at all to meditating even a bit (10 mins every few days) - benefits felt quickly
Going up to intense meditation in a retreat situation (meditating many hours a day for several days to several weeks) - benefits felt and quite long lasting
Meditating for an intermediate amount -(meditating 30 mins a day 5-7 days a week over months / years) - meditator plateaus and feels stuck. Little benefit felt
This is just my experience but I'm wondering is it a thing - has this been pointed out in any texts or by established teachers. Or is it just me?
Many Thanks
meditation-effects meditation-hindrances
asked 5 hours ago
Crab Bucket
12.8k537116
Is there a 'dead zone' in meditation and the effort applied? So to explain
Going from no meditation at all to meditating even a bit (10 mins every few days) - benefits felt quickly
Going up to intense meditation in a retreat situation (meditating many hours a day for several days to several weeks) - benefits felt and quite long lasting
Meditating for an intermediate amount -(meditating 30 mins a day 5-7 days a week over months / years) - meditator plateaus and feels stuck. Little benefit felt
This is just my experience but I'm wondering is it a thing - has this been pointed out in any texts or by established teachers. Or is it just me?
Many Thanks
meditation-effects meditation-hindrances
meditation-effects meditation-hindrances
asked 5 hours ago
Crab Bucket
12.8k537116
asked 5 hours ago
Crab Bucket
12.8k537116
asked 5 hours ago
Crab Bucket
12.8k537116
asked 5 hours ago
Crab Bucket
12.8k537116
asked 5 hours ago
Crab Bucket
12.8k537116
12.8k537116
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add a comment |Â
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The stream flowing to Nibbana is entered by letting go (vossagga), as written at the end of MN 118 and in SN 48.9 and SN 48.10.
Most meditation taught (Visuddhimagga, Mahasi, Goenka, etc) are not based in letting go. Instead, they are "yogic techniques" based in mental manipulation.
Because these yogic methods use thought, the mind remains coarse or gross. Bodily formations only calm to a certain degree without the mind calming enough to bring more refined progress. Thus meditation "plateaus" or progress becomes "dead".
answered 4 hours ago
Dhammadhatu
23.3k11042
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Yes, it has been pointed out in texts:
During the K'ai Yuan era (713-741) an ascetic Mazu was dwelling in the Ch'uan Fa Temple. All day he sat meditating. Zen Master Huairang knew that he was a fitting vessel of teaching, and went to question him:
“Great Worthy, what are you aiming at by sitting in meditation?â€Â
Mazu replied, "to become a Buddha."
So Huairang leaned over and picked up two tiles off the floor and started rubbing them against each other.
Mazu asked, "What are you doing?"
Huairang replied, "Trying to make a mirror."
Mazu asked, "How can you make a mirror by polishing a tile?"
Huairang said, "How can you become a Buddha by sitting in meditation?"
Mazu asked, "Then what shall I do?"
Huairang asked, "When an ox-carriage stops moving, do you hit the carriage or the ox?" Mazu had no reply. Huairang continued, "Are you practicing to sit in meditation, or practicing to sit like a Buddha? As to sitting in meditation, meditation is neither sitting nor lying. As to sitting like a Buddha, the Buddha has no fixed form. In the non-abiding Dharma, one should neither grasp nor reject. If you try to sit like a Buddha, you are just killing the Buddha. If you attach to the form of sitting, you will never realize the principle."
Upon hearing this Mazu felt as if he had tasted ghee. He bowed and asked, "How should one's mind be so that it will accord with the formless samÄÂdhi?"
Huairang said, "Your study of the teaching of the mind-ground is like planting a seed. My teaching of the essentials of the Dharma is like heaven bestowing rain. Because you have natural affinity, you will perceive the Way."
Mazu also asked, "The Way is without form, how can it be perceived?"
Huairang said, "The Dharma-eye of the mind-ground can perceive the Way. It is the same with the formless samÄÂdhi."
Mazu asked, "Is that still subject to becoming and decay?"
Huairang said, "If you see the Way through such concepts as becoming and decay, meeting and parting, then you do not truly see the Way. Listen to my verse:
The mind ground contains various seeds,
Which with rain will come to sprout.
The flower of samÄÂdhi is formless,
How can it decay or become?"
Mazu was awakened and his mind became detached. He stayed to serve Huairang for ten years, gradually deepening his understanding of the profound mystery.
Buddhist Enlightenment is not something that can be achieved through mechanical repetition or by waiting, like one would wait for a kettle to boil or for a train to arrive. Buddhist Enlightenment involves shedding layers of bullshit and meeting reality. This is a process that requires courage to go forward into the unknown without a map. Only then one's practice can become alive and one can meet the real dragon face to face.
This includes meditation, that has to get less and less scripted and more and more an authentic presence and discovery with no preset agenda.
answered 4 hours ago
Andrei Volkov♦
35.4k229103
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
1
down vote
The stream flowing to Nibbana is entered by letting go (vossagga), as written at the end of MN 118 and in SN 48.9 and SN 48.10.
Most meditation taught (Visuddhimagga, Mahasi, Goenka, etc) are not based in letting go. Instead, they are "yogic techniques" based in mental manipulation.
Because these yogic methods use thought, the mind remains coarse or gross. Bodily formations only calm to a certain degree without the mind calming enough to bring more refined progress. Thus meditation "plateaus" or progress becomes "dead".
answered 4 hours ago
Dhammadhatu
23.3k11042
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
The stream flowing to Nibbana is entered by letting go (vossagga), as written at the end of MN 118 and in SN 48.9 and SN 48.10.
Most meditation taught (Visuddhimagga, Mahasi, Goenka, etc) are not based in letting go. Instead, they are "yogic techniques" based in mental manipulation.
Because these yogic methods use thought, the mind remains coarse or gross. Bodily formations only calm to a certain degree without the mind calming enough to bring more refined progress. Thus meditation "plateaus" or progress becomes "dead".
answered 4 hours ago
Dhammadhatu
23.3k11042
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
The stream flowing to Nibbana is entered by letting go (vossagga), as written at the end of MN 118 and in SN 48.9 and SN 48.10.
Most meditation taught (Visuddhimagga, Mahasi, Goenka, etc) are not based in letting go. Instead, they are "yogic techniques" based in mental manipulation.
Because these yogic methods use thought, the mind remains coarse or gross. Bodily formations only calm to a certain degree without the mind calming enough to bring more refined progress. Thus meditation "plateaus" or progress becomes "dead".
answered 4 hours ago
Dhammadhatu
23.3k11042
The stream flowing to Nibbana is entered by letting go (vossagga), as written at the end of MN 118 and in SN 48.9 and SN 48.10.
Most meditation taught (Visuddhimagga, Mahasi, Goenka, etc) are not based in letting go. Instead, they are "yogic techniques" based in mental manipulation.
Because these yogic methods use thought, the mind remains coarse or gross. Bodily formations only calm to a certain degree without the mind calming enough to bring more refined progress. Thus meditation "plateaus" or progress becomes "dead".
answered 4 hours ago
Dhammadhatu
23.3k11042
answered 4 hours ago
Dhammadhatu
23.3k11042
answered 4 hours ago
Dhammadhatu
23.3k11042
answered 4 hours ago
Dhammadhatu
23.3k11042
23.3k11042
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Yes, it has been pointed out in texts:
During the K'ai Yuan era (713-741) an ascetic Mazu was dwelling in the Ch'uan Fa Temple. All day he sat meditating. Zen Master Huairang knew that he was a fitting vessel of teaching, and went to question him:
“Great Worthy, what are you aiming at by sitting in meditation?â€Â
Mazu replied, "to become a Buddha."
So Huairang leaned over and picked up two tiles off the floor and started rubbing them against each other.
Mazu asked, "What are you doing?"
Huairang replied, "Trying to make a mirror."
Mazu asked, "How can you make a mirror by polishing a tile?"
Huairang said, "How can you become a Buddha by sitting in meditation?"
Mazu asked, "Then what shall I do?"
Huairang asked, "When an ox-carriage stops moving, do you hit the carriage or the ox?" Mazu had no reply. Huairang continued, "Are you practicing to sit in meditation, or practicing to sit like a Buddha? As to sitting in meditation, meditation is neither sitting nor lying. As to sitting like a Buddha, the Buddha has no fixed form. In the non-abiding Dharma, one should neither grasp nor reject. If you try to sit like a Buddha, you are just killing the Buddha. If you attach to the form of sitting, you will never realize the principle."
Upon hearing this Mazu felt as if he had tasted ghee. He bowed and asked, "How should one's mind be so that it will accord with the formless samÄÂdhi?"
Huairang said, "Your study of the teaching of the mind-ground is like planting a seed. My teaching of the essentials of the Dharma is like heaven bestowing rain. Because you have natural affinity, you will perceive the Way."
Mazu also asked, "The Way is without form, how can it be perceived?"
Huairang said, "The Dharma-eye of the mind-ground can perceive the Way. It is the same with the formless samÄÂdhi."
Mazu asked, "Is that still subject to becoming and decay?"
Huairang said, "If you see the Way through such concepts as becoming and decay, meeting and parting, then you do not truly see the Way. Listen to my verse:
The mind ground contains various seeds,
Which with rain will come to sprout.
The flower of samÄÂdhi is formless,
How can it decay or become?"
Mazu was awakened and his mind became detached. He stayed to serve Huairang for ten years, gradually deepening his understanding of the profound mystery.
Buddhist Enlightenment is not something that can be achieved through mechanical repetition or by waiting, like one would wait for a kettle to boil or for a train to arrive. Buddhist Enlightenment involves shedding layers of bullshit and meeting reality. This is a process that requires courage to go forward into the unknown without a map. Only then one's practice can become alive and one can meet the real dragon face to face.
This includes meditation, that has to get less and less scripted and more and more an authentic presence and discovery with no preset agenda.
answered 4 hours ago
Andrei Volkov♦
35.4k229103
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Yes, it has been pointed out in texts:
During the K'ai Yuan era (713-741) an ascetic Mazu was dwelling in the Ch'uan Fa Temple. All day he sat meditating. Zen Master Huairang knew that he was a fitting vessel of teaching, and went to question him:
“Great Worthy, what are you aiming at by sitting in meditation?â€Â
Mazu replied, "to become a Buddha."
So Huairang leaned over and picked up two tiles off the floor and started rubbing them against each other.
Mazu asked, "What are you doing?"
Huairang replied, "Trying to make a mirror."
Mazu asked, "How can you make a mirror by polishing a tile?"
Huairang said, "How can you become a Buddha by sitting in meditation?"
Mazu asked, "Then what shall I do?"
Huairang asked, "When an ox-carriage stops moving, do you hit the carriage or the ox?" Mazu had no reply. Huairang continued, "Are you practicing to sit in meditation, or practicing to sit like a Buddha? As to sitting in meditation, meditation is neither sitting nor lying. As to sitting like a Buddha, the Buddha has no fixed form. In the non-abiding Dharma, one should neither grasp nor reject. If you try to sit like a Buddha, you are just killing the Buddha. If you attach to the form of sitting, you will never realize the principle."
Upon hearing this Mazu felt as if he had tasted ghee. He bowed and asked, "How should one's mind be so that it will accord with the formless samÄÂdhi?"
Huairang said, "Your study of the teaching of the mind-ground is like planting a seed. My teaching of the essentials of the Dharma is like heaven bestowing rain. Because you have natural affinity, you will perceive the Way."
Mazu also asked, "The Way is without form, how can it be perceived?"
Huairang said, "The Dharma-eye of the mind-ground can perceive the Way. It is the same with the formless samÄÂdhi."
Mazu asked, "Is that still subject to becoming and decay?"
Huairang said, "If you see the Way through such concepts as becoming and decay, meeting and parting, then you do not truly see the Way. Listen to my verse:
The mind ground contains various seeds,
Which with rain will come to sprout.
The flower of samÄÂdhi is formless,
How can it decay or become?"
Mazu was awakened and his mind became detached. He stayed to serve Huairang for ten years, gradually deepening his understanding of the profound mystery.
Buddhist Enlightenment is not something that can be achieved through mechanical repetition or by waiting, like one would wait for a kettle to boil or for a train to arrive. Buddhist Enlightenment involves shedding layers of bullshit and meeting reality. This is a process that requires courage to go forward into the unknown without a map. Only then one's practice can become alive and one can meet the real dragon face to face.
This includes meditation, that has to get less and less scripted and more and more an authentic presence and discovery with no preset agenda.
answered 4 hours ago
Andrei Volkov♦
35.4k229103
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Yes, it has been pointed out in texts:
During the K'ai Yuan era (713-741) an ascetic Mazu was dwelling in the Ch'uan Fa Temple. All day he sat meditating. Zen Master Huairang knew that he was a fitting vessel of teaching, and went to question him:
“Great Worthy, what are you aiming at by sitting in meditation?â€Â
Mazu replied, "to become a Buddha."
So Huairang leaned over and picked up two tiles off the floor and started rubbing them against each other.
Mazu asked, "What are you doing?"
Huairang replied, "Trying to make a mirror."
Mazu asked, "How can you make a mirror by polishing a tile?"
Huairang said, "How can you become a Buddha by sitting in meditation?"
Mazu asked, "Then what shall I do?"
Huairang asked, "When an ox-carriage stops moving, do you hit the carriage or the ox?" Mazu had no reply. Huairang continued, "Are you practicing to sit in meditation, or practicing to sit like a Buddha? As to sitting in meditation, meditation is neither sitting nor lying. As to sitting like a Buddha, the Buddha has no fixed form. In the non-abiding Dharma, one should neither grasp nor reject. If you try to sit like a Buddha, you are just killing the Buddha. If you attach to the form of sitting, you will never realize the principle."
Upon hearing this Mazu felt as if he had tasted ghee. He bowed and asked, "How should one's mind be so that it will accord with the formless samÄÂdhi?"
Huairang said, "Your study of the teaching of the mind-ground is like planting a seed. My teaching of the essentials of the Dharma is like heaven bestowing rain. Because you have natural affinity, you will perceive the Way."
Mazu also asked, "The Way is without form, how can it be perceived?"
Huairang said, "The Dharma-eye of the mind-ground can perceive the Way. It is the same with the formless samÄÂdhi."
Mazu asked, "Is that still subject to becoming and decay?"
Huairang said, "If you see the Way through such concepts as becoming and decay, meeting and parting, then you do not truly see the Way. Listen to my verse:
The mind ground contains various seeds,
Which with rain will come to sprout.
The flower of samÄÂdhi is formless,
How can it decay or become?"
Mazu was awakened and his mind became detached. He stayed to serve Huairang for ten years, gradually deepening his understanding of the profound mystery.
Buddhist Enlightenment is not something that can be achieved through mechanical repetition or by waiting, like one would wait for a kettle to boil or for a train to arrive. Buddhist Enlightenment involves shedding layers of bullshit and meeting reality. This is a process that requires courage to go forward into the unknown without a map. Only then one's practice can become alive and one can meet the real dragon face to face.
This includes meditation, that has to get less and less scripted and more and more an authentic presence and discovery with no preset agenda.
answered 4 hours ago
Andrei Volkov♦
35.4k229103
Yes, it has been pointed out in texts:
During the K'ai Yuan era (713-741) an ascetic Mazu was dwelling in the Ch'uan Fa Temple. All day he sat meditating. Zen Master Huairang knew that he was a fitting vessel of teaching, and went to question him:
“Great Worthy, what are you aiming at by sitting in meditation?â€Â
Mazu replied, "to become a Buddha."
So Huairang leaned over and picked up two tiles off the floor and started rubbing them against each other.
Mazu asked, "What are you doing?"
Huairang replied, "Trying to make a mirror."
Mazu asked, "How can you make a mirror by polishing a tile?"
Huairang said, "How can you become a Buddha by sitting in meditation?"
Mazu asked, "Then what shall I do?"
Huairang asked, "When an ox-carriage stops moving, do you hit the carriage or the ox?" Mazu had no reply. Huairang continued, "Are you practicing to sit in meditation, or practicing to sit like a Buddha? As to sitting in meditation, meditation is neither sitting nor lying. As to sitting like a Buddha, the Buddha has no fixed form. In the non-abiding Dharma, one should neither grasp nor reject. If you try to sit like a Buddha, you are just killing the Buddha. If you attach to the form of sitting, you will never realize the principle."
Upon hearing this Mazu felt as if he had tasted ghee. He bowed and asked, "How should one's mind be so that it will accord with the formless samÄÂdhi?"
Huairang said, "Your study of the teaching of the mind-ground is like planting a seed. My teaching of the essentials of the Dharma is like heaven bestowing rain. Because you have natural affinity, you will perceive the Way."
Mazu also asked, "The Way is without form, how can it be perceived?"
Huairang said, "The Dharma-eye of the mind-ground can perceive the Way. It is the same with the formless samÄÂdhi."
Mazu asked, "Is that still subject to becoming and decay?"
Huairang said, "If you see the Way through such concepts as becoming and decay, meeting and parting, then you do not truly see the Way. Listen to my verse:
The mind ground contains various seeds,
Which with rain will come to sprout.
The flower of samÄÂdhi is formless,
How can it decay or become?"
Mazu was awakened and his mind became detached. He stayed to serve Huairang for ten years, gradually deepening his understanding of the profound mystery.
Buddhist Enlightenment is not something that can be achieved through mechanical repetition or by waiting, like one would wait for a kettle to boil or for a train to arrive. Buddhist Enlightenment involves shedding layers of bullshit and meeting reality. This is a process that requires courage to go forward into the unknown without a map. Only then one's practice can become alive and one can meet the real dragon face to face.
This includes meditation, that has to get less and less scripted and more and more an authentic presence and discovery with no preset agenda.
answered 4 hours ago
Andrei Volkov♦
35.4k229103
edited 3 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
Andrei Volkov♦
35.4k229103
answered 4 hours ago
Andrei Volkov♦
35.4k229103
answered 4 hours ago
Andrei Volkov♦
35.4k229103
35.4k229103
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