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Can you refuel chemical rockets to increase the speed?
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Chemical rockets have max delta v ( max.speed ) about 10 km/s.
Can you refuel them in deep space to increase the speed ?
For example Nasa Deep space habitat (DSH). Once it is assembled in orbit with full tanks it can achieve max.speed 10 km/s which makes about 6 months trip to mars.
But can you at same time send other rocket with same speed and trajectory with all payload being fuel. After DSH run from fuel, connect them bout, refuel DSH and throw away rocket like expendable stage.
Than repeat this with other rockets which were already refueled 2,3,4 times.
This way you can theoretically increase max.speed (delta v) above 10 km/s and shorten 6 mounts trip to mars to just 3,2,1 mount.
Am I wrong with this ? If yes then why?
It is physically impossible or just too expansive and did NASA considered this for Mars mission ?
rockets
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This question came from our site for active researchers, academics and students of physics.
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up vote
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favorite
Chemical rockets have max delta v ( max.speed ) about 10 km/s.
Can you refuel them in deep space to increase the speed ?
For example Nasa Deep space habitat (DSH). Once it is assembled in orbit with full tanks it can achieve max.speed 10 km/s which makes about 6 months trip to mars.
But can you at same time send other rocket with same speed and trajectory with all payload being fuel. After DSH run from fuel, connect them bout, refuel DSH and throw away rocket like expendable stage.
Than repeat this with other rockets which were already refueled 2,3,4 times.
This way you can theoretically increase max.speed (delta v) above 10 km/s and shorten 6 mounts trip to mars to just 3,2,1 mount.
Am I wrong with this ? If yes then why?
It is physically impossible or just too expansive and did NASA considered this for Mars mission ?
rockets
migrated from physics.stackexchange.com 5 hours ago
This question came from our site for active researchers, academics and students of physics.
Yes you could, but instead they would probably just add staging to the gateway constructed in orbit
– JCRM
4 hours ago
What is a " 6 mounts trip "? Do you mean months? If you arrive much faster at Mars, decceleration into orbit will be more difficult and expensive. Extra fuel may be necessary for orbit maneuver.
– Uwe
2 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
Chemical rockets have max delta v ( max.speed ) about 10 km/s.
Can you refuel them in deep space to increase the speed ?
For example Nasa Deep space habitat (DSH). Once it is assembled in orbit with full tanks it can achieve max.speed 10 km/s which makes about 6 months trip to mars.
But can you at same time send other rocket with same speed and trajectory with all payload being fuel. After DSH run from fuel, connect them bout, refuel DSH and throw away rocket like expendable stage.
Than repeat this with other rockets which were already refueled 2,3,4 times.
This way you can theoretically increase max.speed (delta v) above 10 km/s and shorten 6 mounts trip to mars to just 3,2,1 mount.
Am I wrong with this ? If yes then why?
It is physically impossible or just too expansive and did NASA considered this for Mars mission ?
rockets
Chemical rockets have max delta v ( max.speed ) about 10 km/s.
Can you refuel them in deep space to increase the speed ?
For example Nasa Deep space habitat (DSH). Once it is assembled in orbit with full tanks it can achieve max.speed 10 km/s which makes about 6 months trip to mars.
But can you at same time send other rocket with same speed and trajectory with all payload being fuel. After DSH run from fuel, connect them bout, refuel DSH and throw away rocket like expendable stage.
Than repeat this with other rockets which were already refueled 2,3,4 times.
This way you can theoretically increase max.speed (delta v) above 10 km/s and shorten 6 mounts trip to mars to just 3,2,1 mount.
Am I wrong with this ? If yes then why?
It is physically impossible or just too expansive and did NASA considered this for Mars mission ?
rockets
rockets
asked 5 hours ago
John Bambi
migrated from physics.stackexchange.com 5 hours ago
This question came from our site for active researchers, academics and students of physics.
migrated from physics.stackexchange.com 5 hours ago
This question came from our site for active researchers, academics and students of physics.
Yes you could, but instead they would probably just add staging to the gateway constructed in orbit
– JCRM
4 hours ago
What is a " 6 mounts trip "? Do you mean months? If you arrive much faster at Mars, decceleration into orbit will be more difficult and expensive. Extra fuel may be necessary for orbit maneuver.
– Uwe
2 hours ago
add a comment |Â
Yes you could, but instead they would probably just add staging to the gateway constructed in orbit
– JCRM
4 hours ago
What is a " 6 mounts trip "? Do you mean months? If you arrive much faster at Mars, decceleration into orbit will be more difficult and expensive. Extra fuel may be necessary for orbit maneuver.
– Uwe
2 hours ago
Yes you could, but instead they would probably just add staging to the gateway constructed in orbit
– JCRM
4 hours ago
Yes you could, but instead they would probably just add staging to the gateway constructed in orbit
– JCRM
4 hours ago
What is a " 6 mounts trip "? Do you mean months? If you arrive much faster at Mars, decceleration into orbit will be more difficult and expensive. Extra fuel may be necessary for orbit maneuver.
– Uwe
2 hours ago
What is a " 6 mounts trip "? Do you mean months? If you arrive much faster at Mars, decceleration into orbit will be more difficult and expensive. Extra fuel may be necessary for orbit maneuver.
– Uwe
2 hours ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
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up vote
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You work against the very same old problem of Tyranny of Rocket Equation, except you distribute the rocket - many smaller instead of one huge, sending the many pieces that are to meet up deeper in space. Yes, you can increase the speed that way. And the increase will be small, or the cost will be prohibitive. After all, you must accelerate the rockets that deliver fuel to the speed of the "final rocket" - and with what fuel?
If, like in normal rockets, 90% launch mass is fuel, 5% is payload (5% to structural overhead) and you want the rocket to be refueled to the launch state, doubling its delta-V - then you have to send 18 refueling rockets with payload of fuel. Want to triple the delta-V? Each of these 18 supply rockets needs to be refueled in orbit before it can catch up with the 'core'. One core rocket. One orbital refueling for 2x delta-V - 18 rockets, plus one refueling 'on the fly' - another 18. And 18 per each of these. All in all your delta-V increases 3x. Your number of launches - 361x.
But yes, a moderate, middle-ground approach makes sense. BFR is planned for orbital refueling. It launches on a booster that is way insufficient to reach orbit, then flies to orbit under own power, depleting most of its own fuel supply, then receives fuel from other BFR launches which use the payload/passenger space as extra fuel tank (6 fueling launches, if memory serves me correctly) and then it's ready for departure to Mars.
answered 4 hours ago
SF.
29.1k897210
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Yes you can but not with only chemical rockets. The solution is to send your deepspace refuel tanks using a high isp electric engine, which will require a very long time to reach their destination (unless powered by a nuclear reactor), but since they unmanned, cosmic/artificial radiation is not an issue.
answered 52 mins ago
FreeThinker
1
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FreeThinker is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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Sounds like you are proposing to send a "slow" tanker, and then sometime much later, send a "fast" ship that will rendezvous with the tanker. But how will that rendezvous be possible if they are travelling at different speeds?
– besmirched
48 mins ago
On the other hand, If you were planning a round trip, perhaps the rendezvous would take place at the destination, and the "fast" ship would use the fuel from the tanker for the return trip.
– besmirched
44 mins ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
You work against the very same old problem of Tyranny of Rocket Equation, except you distribute the rocket - many smaller instead of one huge, sending the many pieces that are to meet up deeper in space. Yes, you can increase the speed that way. And the increase will be small, or the cost will be prohibitive. After all, you must accelerate the rockets that deliver fuel to the speed of the "final rocket" - and with what fuel?
If, like in normal rockets, 90% launch mass is fuel, 5% is payload (5% to structural overhead) and you want the rocket to be refueled to the launch state, doubling its delta-V - then you have to send 18 refueling rockets with payload of fuel. Want to triple the delta-V? Each of these 18 supply rockets needs to be refueled in orbit before it can catch up with the 'core'. One core rocket. One orbital refueling for 2x delta-V - 18 rockets, plus one refueling 'on the fly' - another 18. And 18 per each of these. All in all your delta-V increases 3x. Your number of launches - 361x.
But yes, a moderate, middle-ground approach makes sense. BFR is planned for orbital refueling. It launches on a booster that is way insufficient to reach orbit, then flies to orbit under own power, depleting most of its own fuel supply, then receives fuel from other BFR launches which use the payload/passenger space as extra fuel tank (6 fueling launches, if memory serves me correctly) and then it's ready for departure to Mars.
answered 4 hours ago
SF.
29.1k897210
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
You work against the very same old problem of Tyranny of Rocket Equation, except you distribute the rocket - many smaller instead of one huge, sending the many pieces that are to meet up deeper in space. Yes, you can increase the speed that way. And the increase will be small, or the cost will be prohibitive. After all, you must accelerate the rockets that deliver fuel to the speed of the "final rocket" - and with what fuel?
If, like in normal rockets, 90% launch mass is fuel, 5% is payload (5% to structural overhead) and you want the rocket to be refueled to the launch state, doubling its delta-V - then you have to send 18 refueling rockets with payload of fuel. Want to triple the delta-V? Each of these 18 supply rockets needs to be refueled in orbit before it can catch up with the 'core'. One core rocket. One orbital refueling for 2x delta-V - 18 rockets, plus one refueling 'on the fly' - another 18. And 18 per each of these. All in all your delta-V increases 3x. Your number of launches - 361x.
But yes, a moderate, middle-ground approach makes sense. BFR is planned for orbital refueling. It launches on a booster that is way insufficient to reach orbit, then flies to orbit under own power, depleting most of its own fuel supply, then receives fuel from other BFR launches which use the payload/passenger space as extra fuel tank (6 fueling launches, if memory serves me correctly) and then it's ready for departure to Mars.
answered 4 hours ago
SF.
29.1k897210
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
You work against the very same old problem of Tyranny of Rocket Equation, except you distribute the rocket - many smaller instead of one huge, sending the many pieces that are to meet up deeper in space. Yes, you can increase the speed that way. And the increase will be small, or the cost will be prohibitive. After all, you must accelerate the rockets that deliver fuel to the speed of the "final rocket" - and with what fuel?
If, like in normal rockets, 90% launch mass is fuel, 5% is payload (5% to structural overhead) and you want the rocket to be refueled to the launch state, doubling its delta-V - then you have to send 18 refueling rockets with payload of fuel. Want to triple the delta-V? Each of these 18 supply rockets needs to be refueled in orbit before it can catch up with the 'core'. One core rocket. One orbital refueling for 2x delta-V - 18 rockets, plus one refueling 'on the fly' - another 18. And 18 per each of these. All in all your delta-V increases 3x. Your number of launches - 361x.
But yes, a moderate, middle-ground approach makes sense. BFR is planned for orbital refueling. It launches on a booster that is way insufficient to reach orbit, then flies to orbit under own power, depleting most of its own fuel supply, then receives fuel from other BFR launches which use the payload/passenger space as extra fuel tank (6 fueling launches, if memory serves me correctly) and then it's ready for departure to Mars.
answered 4 hours ago
SF.
29.1k897210
You work against the very same old problem of Tyranny of Rocket Equation, except you distribute the rocket - many smaller instead of one huge, sending the many pieces that are to meet up deeper in space. Yes, you can increase the speed that way. And the increase will be small, or the cost will be prohibitive. After all, you must accelerate the rockets that deliver fuel to the speed of the "final rocket" - and with what fuel?
If, like in normal rockets, 90% launch mass is fuel, 5% is payload (5% to structural overhead) and you want the rocket to be refueled to the launch state, doubling its delta-V - then you have to send 18 refueling rockets with payload of fuel. Want to triple the delta-V? Each of these 18 supply rockets needs to be refueled in orbit before it can catch up with the 'core'. One core rocket. One orbital refueling for 2x delta-V - 18 rockets, plus one refueling 'on the fly' - another 18. And 18 per each of these. All in all your delta-V increases 3x. Your number of launches - 361x.
But yes, a moderate, middle-ground approach makes sense. BFR is planned for orbital refueling. It launches on a booster that is way insufficient to reach orbit, then flies to orbit under own power, depleting most of its own fuel supply, then receives fuel from other BFR launches which use the payload/passenger space as extra fuel tank (6 fueling launches, if memory serves me correctly) and then it's ready for departure to Mars.
answered 4 hours ago
SF.
29.1k897210
edited 3 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
SF.
29.1k897210
answered 4 hours ago
SF.
29.1k897210
answered 4 hours ago
SF.
29.1k897210
29.1k897210
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Yes you can but not with only chemical rockets. The solution is to send your deepspace refuel tanks using a high isp electric engine, which will require a very long time to reach their destination (unless powered by a nuclear reactor), but since they unmanned, cosmic/artificial radiation is not an issue.
answered 52 mins ago
FreeThinker
1
New contributor
FreeThinker is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Sounds like you are proposing to send a "slow" tanker, and then sometime much later, send a "fast" ship that will rendezvous with the tanker. But how will that rendezvous be possible if they are travelling at different speeds?
– besmirched
48 mins ago
On the other hand, If you were planning a round trip, perhaps the rendezvous would take place at the destination, and the "fast" ship would use the fuel from the tanker for the return trip.
– besmirched
44 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Yes you can but not with only chemical rockets. The solution is to send your deepspace refuel tanks using a high isp electric engine, which will require a very long time to reach their destination (unless powered by a nuclear reactor), but since they unmanned, cosmic/artificial radiation is not an issue.
answered 52 mins ago
FreeThinker
1
New contributor
FreeThinker is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Sounds like you are proposing to send a "slow" tanker, and then sometime much later, send a "fast" ship that will rendezvous with the tanker. But how will that rendezvous be possible if they are travelling at different speeds?
– besmirched
48 mins ago
On the other hand, If you were planning a round trip, perhaps the rendezvous would take place at the destination, and the "fast" ship would use the fuel from the tanker for the return trip.
– besmirched
44 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
Yes you can but not with only chemical rockets. The solution is to send your deepspace refuel tanks using a high isp electric engine, which will require a very long time to reach their destination (unless powered by a nuclear reactor), but since they unmanned, cosmic/artificial radiation is not an issue.
answered 52 mins ago
FreeThinker
1
New contributor
FreeThinker is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Yes you can but not with only chemical rockets. The solution is to send your deepspace refuel tanks using a high isp electric engine, which will require a very long time to reach their destination (unless powered by a nuclear reactor), but since they unmanned, cosmic/artificial radiation is not an issue.
answered 52 mins ago
FreeThinker
1
New contributor
FreeThinker is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 52 mins ago
FreeThinker
1
New contributor
FreeThinker is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 52 mins ago
FreeThinker
1
answered 52 mins ago
FreeThinker
1
1
New contributor
FreeThinker is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
FreeThinker is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
FreeThinker is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Sounds like you are proposing to send a "slow" tanker, and then sometime much later, send a "fast" ship that will rendezvous with the tanker. But how will that rendezvous be possible if they are travelling at different speeds?
– besmirched
48 mins ago
On the other hand, If you were planning a round trip, perhaps the rendezvous would take place at the destination, and the "fast" ship would use the fuel from the tanker for the return trip.
– besmirched
44 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Sounds like you are proposing to send a "slow" tanker, and then sometime much later, send a "fast" ship that will rendezvous with the tanker. But how will that rendezvous be possible if they are travelling at different speeds?
– besmirched
48 mins ago
On the other hand, If you were planning a round trip, perhaps the rendezvous would take place at the destination, and the "fast" ship would use the fuel from the tanker for the return trip.
– besmirched
44 mins ago
Sounds like you are proposing to send a "slow" tanker, and then sometime much later, send a "fast" ship that will rendezvous with the tanker. But how will that rendezvous be possible if they are travelling at different speeds?
– besmirched
48 mins ago
Sounds like you are proposing to send a "slow" tanker, and then sometime much later, send a "fast" ship that will rendezvous with the tanker. But how will that rendezvous be possible if they are travelling at different speeds?
– besmirched
48 mins ago
On the other hand, If you were planning a round trip, perhaps the rendezvous would take place at the destination, and the "fast" ship would use the fuel from the tanker for the return trip.
– besmirched
44 mins ago
On the other hand, If you were planning a round trip, perhaps the rendezvous would take place at the destination, and the "fast" ship would use the fuel from the tanker for the return trip.
– besmirched
44 mins ago
add a comment |Â
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Yes you could, but instead they would probably just add staging to the gateway constructed in orbit
– JCRM
4 hours ago
What is a " 6 mounts trip "? Do you mean months? If you arrive much faster at Mars, decceleration into orbit will be more difficult and expensive. Extra fuel may be necessary for orbit maneuver.
– Uwe
2 hours ago