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When can you counterspell a spell with long casting time?
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The spell counterspell in D&D 5e has a casting time of 1 reaction, "which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell". It has the basic effect of:
You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a success, the creature's spell fails and has no effect.
Most spells have a casting time of 1 action or less, in which case the timing your counterspell shouldn't affect anything outside of weird corner cases involving multiple reactions on the same spell. I'm not asking about those corner cases. However, some spells have a casting time longer than a single action, such as alarm with a casting time of 1 minute (10 rounds).
Alarm is a 1st level spell so should be countered by counterspell without any need for a check. However, I'm not certain what time within the 1 minute window you can actually do so. Specifically, all other reactions I can find specify a "trigger" that is valid only for an instant as far as D&D is concerned; there's no noteworthy duration on "hit by an attack" for example. The general description of a reaction in the basic rules state
A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind
While the more specific rules under spellcasting say
cast in response to some event.
And the rules for readied actions, although not applicable here, give a "use it or lose it" precedent
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger.
All emphasis mine.
As long as the triggering events are "instant" there isn't much room for ambiguity, but the "trigger" specified for counterspell can be interpreted more as a "condition" or "situation" because "seeing", "casting" and "being within 60 ft" are ongoing rather than instantaneous. I can think of a few ways to reconcile this:
- You can only counterspell when the casting starts, which is the most similar to how counterspell interacts with readied spells.
- You can counterspell at any point during any character's turn as long as all the conditions are met, which is the natural reading but (in my opinion) doesn't fit with the concept of reactions.
- You can counterspell only at the end of the casting. This is closest to the "readied action" rules of "after the trigger", and it also causes a fairly natural distinction between getting countered, which consumes the spell slot, and getting their concentration broken which does not.
- You can cast counterspell at the moment you see the caster. Interpreting "when you see" as an instantaneous event happening right when the caster comes into vision removes the ambiguity completely, and seems (to me) to at least be a valid English reading of the phrase if not the most natural one. It has a lot of weird conceptual consequences though because the spell is counterable through its entire casting, but for any individual it only happens once.
- You have the option to cast counterspell each time the caster takes the "cast a spell" action, but not arbitrarily at other times in the round. This resolves the weirdness of "actively" using a reaction at arbitrary times, while still allowing the entire casting time to be available for countering. I like this interpretation the most, but I also think it has the least textual support.
Which of these is correct? Are there any other reactions where their "trigger" can be valid for more than an instant, which might be used as precedent? When am I able to counterspell a spell that takes more than 1 turn to cast?
dnd-5e spells counterspelling
asked 1 hour ago
Kamil Drakari
1,787525
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
The spell counterspell in D&D 5e has a casting time of 1 reaction, "which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell". It has the basic effect of:
You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a success, the creature's spell fails and has no effect.
Most spells have a casting time of 1 action or less, in which case the timing your counterspell shouldn't affect anything outside of weird corner cases involving multiple reactions on the same spell. I'm not asking about those corner cases. However, some spells have a casting time longer than a single action, such as alarm with a casting time of 1 minute (10 rounds).
Alarm is a 1st level spell so should be countered by counterspell without any need for a check. However, I'm not certain what time within the 1 minute window you can actually do so. Specifically, all other reactions I can find specify a "trigger" that is valid only for an instant as far as D&D is concerned; there's no noteworthy duration on "hit by an attack" for example. The general description of a reaction in the basic rules state
A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind
While the more specific rules under spellcasting say
cast in response to some event.
And the rules for readied actions, although not applicable here, give a "use it or lose it" precedent
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger.
All emphasis mine.
As long as the triggering events are "instant" there isn't much room for ambiguity, but the "trigger" specified for counterspell can be interpreted more as a "condition" or "situation" because "seeing", "casting" and "being within 60 ft" are ongoing rather than instantaneous. I can think of a few ways to reconcile this:
- You can only counterspell when the casting starts, which is the most similar to how counterspell interacts with readied spells.
- You can counterspell at any point during any character's turn as long as all the conditions are met, which is the natural reading but (in my opinion) doesn't fit with the concept of reactions.
- You can counterspell only at the end of the casting. This is closest to the "readied action" rules of "after the trigger", and it also causes a fairly natural distinction between getting countered, which consumes the spell slot, and getting their concentration broken which does not.
- You can cast counterspell at the moment you see the caster. Interpreting "when you see" as an instantaneous event happening right when the caster comes into vision removes the ambiguity completely, and seems (to me) to at least be a valid English reading of the phrase if not the most natural one. It has a lot of weird conceptual consequences though because the spell is counterable through its entire casting, but for any individual it only happens once.
- You have the option to cast counterspell each time the caster takes the "cast a spell" action, but not arbitrarily at other times in the round. This resolves the weirdness of "actively" using a reaction at arbitrary times, while still allowing the entire casting time to be available for countering. I like this interpretation the most, but I also think it has the least textual support.
Which of these is correct? Are there any other reactions where their "trigger" can be valid for more than an instant, which might be used as precedent? When am I able to counterspell a spell that takes more than 1 turn to cast?
dnd-5e spells counterspelling
asked 1 hour ago
Kamil Drakari
1,787525
Related on Is a slowed spellcaster counterspellable on other people's turns until he finishes casting on his next turn?
– NautArch
1 hour ago
You should probably change the question to something like: When is it optimal to counter a spell... As in the body of the question you answer your own premise. Spells can be countered at any moment after you notice the caster is casting.
– Play Patrice
1 hour ago
@PlayPatrice I mean, I don't agree with you that I answer my question in the body. If the portion about "when I would use it if given free choice" is confusing the intent then I can remove it.
– Kamil Drakari
1 hour ago
1
@PlayPatrice I'm going to edit that section and see if I can clarify why I'm uncertain about this.
– Kamil Drakari
1 hour ago
1
@PlayPatrice I've reworked the section in question, it now contains mostly comparisons to other places in the Basic Rules that talk about reactions.
– Kamil Drakari
13 mins ago
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
The spell counterspell in D&D 5e has a casting time of 1 reaction, "which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell". It has the basic effect of:
You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a success, the creature's spell fails and has no effect.
Most spells have a casting time of 1 action or less, in which case the timing your counterspell shouldn't affect anything outside of weird corner cases involving multiple reactions on the same spell. I'm not asking about those corner cases. However, some spells have a casting time longer than a single action, such as alarm with a casting time of 1 minute (10 rounds).
Alarm is a 1st level spell so should be countered by counterspell without any need for a check. However, I'm not certain what time within the 1 minute window you can actually do so. Specifically, all other reactions I can find specify a "trigger" that is valid only for an instant as far as D&D is concerned; there's no noteworthy duration on "hit by an attack" for example. The general description of a reaction in the basic rules state
A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind
While the more specific rules under spellcasting say
cast in response to some event.
And the rules for readied actions, although not applicable here, give a "use it or lose it" precedent
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger.
All emphasis mine.
As long as the triggering events are "instant" there isn't much room for ambiguity, but the "trigger" specified for counterspell can be interpreted more as a "condition" or "situation" because "seeing", "casting" and "being within 60 ft" are ongoing rather than instantaneous. I can think of a few ways to reconcile this:
- You can only counterspell when the casting starts, which is the most similar to how counterspell interacts with readied spells.
- You can counterspell at any point during any character's turn as long as all the conditions are met, which is the natural reading but (in my opinion) doesn't fit with the concept of reactions.
- You can counterspell only at the end of the casting. This is closest to the "readied action" rules of "after the trigger", and it also causes a fairly natural distinction between getting countered, which consumes the spell slot, and getting their concentration broken which does not.
- You can cast counterspell at the moment you see the caster. Interpreting "when you see" as an instantaneous event happening right when the caster comes into vision removes the ambiguity completely, and seems (to me) to at least be a valid English reading of the phrase if not the most natural one. It has a lot of weird conceptual consequences though because the spell is counterable through its entire casting, but for any individual it only happens once.
- You have the option to cast counterspell each time the caster takes the "cast a spell" action, but not arbitrarily at other times in the round. This resolves the weirdness of "actively" using a reaction at arbitrary times, while still allowing the entire casting time to be available for countering. I like this interpretation the most, but I also think it has the least textual support.
Which of these is correct? Are there any other reactions where their "trigger" can be valid for more than an instant, which might be used as precedent? When am I able to counterspell a spell that takes more than 1 turn to cast?
dnd-5e spells counterspelling
asked 1 hour ago
Kamil Drakari
1,787525
The spell counterspell in D&D 5e has a casting time of 1 reaction, "which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell". It has the basic effect of:
You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a success, the creature's spell fails and has no effect.
Most spells have a casting time of 1 action or less, in which case the timing your counterspell shouldn't affect anything outside of weird corner cases involving multiple reactions on the same spell. I'm not asking about those corner cases. However, some spells have a casting time longer than a single action, such as alarm with a casting time of 1 minute (10 rounds).
Alarm is a 1st level spell so should be countered by counterspell without any need for a check. However, I'm not certain what time within the 1 minute window you can actually do so. Specifically, all other reactions I can find specify a "trigger" that is valid only for an instant as far as D&D is concerned; there's no noteworthy duration on "hit by an attack" for example. The general description of a reaction in the basic rules state
A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind
While the more specific rules under spellcasting say
cast in response to some event.
And the rules for readied actions, although not applicable here, give a "use it or lose it" precedent
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger.
All emphasis mine.
As long as the triggering events are "instant" there isn't much room for ambiguity, but the "trigger" specified for counterspell can be interpreted more as a "condition" or "situation" because "seeing", "casting" and "being within 60 ft" are ongoing rather than instantaneous. I can think of a few ways to reconcile this:
- You can only counterspell when the casting starts, which is the most similar to how counterspell interacts with readied spells.
- You can counterspell at any point during any character's turn as long as all the conditions are met, which is the natural reading but (in my opinion) doesn't fit with the concept of reactions.
- You can counterspell only at the end of the casting. This is closest to the "readied action" rules of "after the trigger", and it also causes a fairly natural distinction between getting countered, which consumes the spell slot, and getting their concentration broken which does not.
- You can cast counterspell at the moment you see the caster. Interpreting "when you see" as an instantaneous event happening right when the caster comes into vision removes the ambiguity completely, and seems (to me) to at least be a valid English reading of the phrase if not the most natural one. It has a lot of weird conceptual consequences though because the spell is counterable through its entire casting, but for any individual it only happens once.
- You have the option to cast counterspell each time the caster takes the "cast a spell" action, but not arbitrarily at other times in the round. This resolves the weirdness of "actively" using a reaction at arbitrary times, while still allowing the entire casting time to be available for countering. I like this interpretation the most, but I also think it has the least textual support.
Which of these is correct? Are there any other reactions where their "trigger" can be valid for more than an instant, which might be used as precedent? When am I able to counterspell a spell that takes more than 1 turn to cast?
dnd-5e spells counterspelling
dnd-5e spells counterspelling
asked 1 hour ago
Kamil Drakari
1,787525
asked 1 hour ago
Kamil Drakari
1,787525
edited 17 mins ago
asked 1 hour ago
Kamil Drakari
1,787525
asked 1 hour ago
Kamil Drakari
1,787525
asked 1 hour ago
Kamil Drakari
1,787525
1,787525
Related on Is a slowed spellcaster counterspellable on other people's turns until he finishes casting on his next turn?
– NautArch
1 hour ago
You should probably change the question to something like: When is it optimal to counter a spell... As in the body of the question you answer your own premise. Spells can be countered at any moment after you notice the caster is casting.
– Play Patrice
1 hour ago
@PlayPatrice I mean, I don't agree with you that I answer my question in the body. If the portion about "when I would use it if given free choice" is confusing the intent then I can remove it.
– Kamil Drakari
1 hour ago
1
@PlayPatrice I'm going to edit that section and see if I can clarify why I'm uncertain about this.
– Kamil Drakari
1 hour ago
1
@PlayPatrice I've reworked the section in question, it now contains mostly comparisons to other places in the Basic Rules that talk about reactions.
– Kamil Drakari
13 mins ago
 |Â
show 3 more comments
Related on Is a slowed spellcaster counterspellable on other people's turns until he finishes casting on his next turn?
– NautArch
1 hour ago
You should probably change the question to something like: When is it optimal to counter a spell... As in the body of the question you answer your own premise. Spells can be countered at any moment after you notice the caster is casting.
– Play Patrice
1 hour ago
@PlayPatrice I mean, I don't agree with you that I answer my question in the body. If the portion about "when I would use it if given free choice" is confusing the intent then I can remove it.
– Kamil Drakari
1 hour ago
1
@PlayPatrice I'm going to edit that section and see if I can clarify why I'm uncertain about this.
– Kamil Drakari
1 hour ago
1
@PlayPatrice I've reworked the section in question, it now contains mostly comparisons to other places in the Basic Rules that talk about reactions.
– Kamil Drakari
13 mins ago
Related on Is a slowed spellcaster counterspellable on other people's turns until he finishes casting on his next turn?
– NautArch
1 hour ago
Related on Is a slowed spellcaster counterspellable on other people's turns until he finishes casting on his next turn?
– NautArch
1 hour ago
You should probably change the question to something like: When is it optimal to counter a spell... As in the body of the question you answer your own premise. Spells can be countered at any moment after you notice the caster is casting.
– Play Patrice
1 hour ago
You should probably change the question to something like: When is it optimal to counter a spell... As in the body of the question you answer your own premise. Spells can be countered at any moment after you notice the caster is casting.
– Play Patrice
1 hour ago
@PlayPatrice I mean, I don't agree with you that I answer my question in the body. If the portion about "when I would use it if given free choice" is confusing the intent then I can remove it.
– Kamil Drakari
1 hour ago
@PlayPatrice I mean, I don't agree with you that I answer my question in the body. If the portion about "when I would use it if given free choice" is confusing the intent then I can remove it.
– Kamil Drakari
1 hour ago
1
1
@PlayPatrice I'm going to edit that section and see if I can clarify why I'm uncertain about this.
– Kamil Drakari
1 hour ago
@PlayPatrice I'm going to edit that section and see if I can clarify why I'm uncertain about this.
– Kamil Drakari
1 hour ago
1
1
@PlayPatrice I've reworked the section in question, it now contains mostly comparisons to other places in the Basic Rules that talk about reactions.
– Kamil Drakari
13 mins ago
@PlayPatrice I've reworked the section in question, it now contains mostly comparisons to other places in the Basic Rules that talk about reactions.
– Kamil Drakari
13 mins ago
 |Â
show 3 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
up vote
6
down vote
You may interrupt the casting of a spell as soon as you see it is being cast, by using your reaction.
The casting time of Counterspell is
1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell.
If a spell has a casting time of 1 minute, they are casting for that 1 minute and if you see them you may counterspell. If the casting time is 1 action you must immediately spend your reaction to counterspell or miss your window.
You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell.
The key here is interrupt. You may do so at any point during the casting.
answered 1 hour ago
Jason_c_o
5,09732757
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Anytime before the cast finishes
The description of Counterspell already gives the needed timing
which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell
It is written in continuous tense, so you can counterspell the casting anytime before the cast actually finishes.
You can also foil the spell just before it finishes: when the creature declare his action to complete the spell, specifically because Counterspell is one of reaction that allows you to interrupt the trigger.
answered 1 hour ago
Vylix
6,04412287
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
I'd say that option B is accurate. The spell says nothing about beginnings or ends. You counter it at the point that you cast counterspell. If that's six turns into that ten turn Alarm casting, or one turn in, or if it's done on turn nine, it's countered at that point.
Also, if you're aware of the creature you 'see' it the entire time, which satisfies even that 'strict' reading you mentioned.
answered 1 hour ago
MarkTO
455
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
6
down vote
You may interrupt the casting of a spell as soon as you see it is being cast, by using your reaction.
The casting time of Counterspell is
1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell.
If a spell has a casting time of 1 minute, they are casting for that 1 minute and if you see them you may counterspell. If the casting time is 1 action you must immediately spend your reaction to counterspell or miss your window.
You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell.
The key here is interrupt. You may do so at any point during the casting.
answered 1 hour ago
Jason_c_o
5,09732757
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
You may interrupt the casting of a spell as soon as you see it is being cast, by using your reaction.
The casting time of Counterspell is
1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell.
If a spell has a casting time of 1 minute, they are casting for that 1 minute and if you see them you may counterspell. If the casting time is 1 action you must immediately spend your reaction to counterspell or miss your window.
You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell.
The key here is interrupt. You may do so at any point during the casting.
answered 1 hour ago
Jason_c_o
5,09732757
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
up vote
6
down vote
You may interrupt the casting of a spell as soon as you see it is being cast, by using your reaction.
The casting time of Counterspell is
1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell.
If a spell has a casting time of 1 minute, they are casting for that 1 minute and if you see them you may counterspell. If the casting time is 1 action you must immediately spend your reaction to counterspell or miss your window.
You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell.
The key here is interrupt. You may do so at any point during the casting.
answered 1 hour ago
Jason_c_o
5,09732757
You may interrupt the casting of a spell as soon as you see it is being cast, by using your reaction.
The casting time of Counterspell is
1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell.
If a spell has a casting time of 1 minute, they are casting for that 1 minute and if you see them you may counterspell. If the casting time is 1 action you must immediately spend your reaction to counterspell or miss your window.
You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell.
The key here is interrupt. You may do so at any point during the casting.
answered 1 hour ago
Jason_c_o
5,09732757
answered 1 hour ago
Jason_c_o
5,09732757
answered 1 hour ago
Jason_c_o
5,09732757
answered 1 hour ago
Jason_c_o
5,09732757
5,09732757
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Anytime before the cast finishes
The description of Counterspell already gives the needed timing
which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell
It is written in continuous tense, so you can counterspell the casting anytime before the cast actually finishes.
You can also foil the spell just before it finishes: when the creature declare his action to complete the spell, specifically because Counterspell is one of reaction that allows you to interrupt the trigger.
answered 1 hour ago
Vylix
6,04412287
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Anytime before the cast finishes
The description of Counterspell already gives the needed timing
which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell
It is written in continuous tense, so you can counterspell the casting anytime before the cast actually finishes.
You can also foil the spell just before it finishes: when the creature declare his action to complete the spell, specifically because Counterspell is one of reaction that allows you to interrupt the trigger.
answered 1 hour ago
Vylix
6,04412287
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Anytime before the cast finishes
The description of Counterspell already gives the needed timing
which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell
It is written in continuous tense, so you can counterspell the casting anytime before the cast actually finishes.
You can also foil the spell just before it finishes: when the creature declare his action to complete the spell, specifically because Counterspell is one of reaction that allows you to interrupt the trigger.
answered 1 hour ago
Vylix
6,04412287
Anytime before the cast finishes
The description of Counterspell already gives the needed timing
which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell
It is written in continuous tense, so you can counterspell the casting anytime before the cast actually finishes.
You can also foil the spell just before it finishes: when the creature declare his action to complete the spell, specifically because Counterspell is one of reaction that allows you to interrupt the trigger.
answered 1 hour ago
Vylix
6,04412287
answered 1 hour ago
Vylix
6,04412287
answered 1 hour ago
Vylix
6,04412287
answered 1 hour ago
Vylix
6,04412287
6,04412287
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
I'd say that option B is accurate. The spell says nothing about beginnings or ends. You counter it at the point that you cast counterspell. If that's six turns into that ten turn Alarm casting, or one turn in, or if it's done on turn nine, it's countered at that point.
Also, if you're aware of the creature you 'see' it the entire time, which satisfies even that 'strict' reading you mentioned.
answered 1 hour ago
MarkTO
455
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
I'd say that option B is accurate. The spell says nothing about beginnings or ends. You counter it at the point that you cast counterspell. If that's six turns into that ten turn Alarm casting, or one turn in, or if it's done on turn nine, it's countered at that point.
Also, if you're aware of the creature you 'see' it the entire time, which satisfies even that 'strict' reading you mentioned.
answered 1 hour ago
MarkTO
455
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
I'd say that option B is accurate. The spell says nothing about beginnings or ends. You counter it at the point that you cast counterspell. If that's six turns into that ten turn Alarm casting, or one turn in, or if it's done on turn nine, it's countered at that point.
Also, if you're aware of the creature you 'see' it the entire time, which satisfies even that 'strict' reading you mentioned.
answered 1 hour ago
MarkTO
455
I'd say that option B is accurate. The spell says nothing about beginnings or ends. You counter it at the point that you cast counterspell. If that's six turns into that ten turn Alarm casting, or one turn in, or if it's done on turn nine, it's countered at that point.
Also, if you're aware of the creature you 'see' it the entire time, which satisfies even that 'strict' reading you mentioned.
answered 1 hour ago
MarkTO
455
answered 1 hour ago
MarkTO
455
answered 1 hour ago
MarkTO
455
answered 1 hour ago
MarkTO
455
455
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
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Related on Is a slowed spellcaster counterspellable on other people's turns until he finishes casting on his next turn?
– NautArch
1 hour ago
You should probably change the question to something like: When is it optimal to counter a spell... As in the body of the question you answer your own premise. Spells can be countered at any moment after you notice the caster is casting.
– Play Patrice
1 hour ago
@PlayPatrice I mean, I don't agree with you that I answer my question in the body. If the portion about "when I would use it if given free choice" is confusing the intent then I can remove it.
– Kamil Drakari
1 hour ago
1
@PlayPatrice I'm going to edit that section and see if I can clarify why I'm uncertain about this.
– Kamil Drakari
1 hour ago
1
@PlayPatrice I've reworked the section in question, it now contains mostly comparisons to other places in the Basic Rules that talk about reactions.
– Kamil Drakari
13 mins ago