Iyfjky

Question

Recently, there has been a huge debate about Senator Lindsey Graham's statements (regarding the DNA test and Iran) being racist. I'm a native Iranian, but I live in South Carolina and I hear these remarks from my friends â€” even my American friends â€” that he offended the Iranian people by his statements. I read a summary of his statements here from CNN. The apparent insult was:

On Tuesday, Graham joked during an interview on "Fox & Friends" that it would be "terrible" if a DNA test revealed that he has Iranian heritage. His comment came in response to Senator Elizabeth Warren's decision to take a DNA test to prove her Native American ancestry claims.

But it's still not clear to me: Is he really pointing to the Iranian people, or to the totalitarian regime of the Islamic Republic? Can someone explain to me why these comments went viral and considered racist?

Also, I can't understand why he chose Iranian people to make a joke in relation to Warren's DNA test case? Because there is no connection between Iranian people and Native Americans. I appreciate any ideas or suggestions.

score 13 · Answer 1 · 2018-10-19 17:55:07Z

Let's get academic about it. I think the term racism is often used to address a basket of discriminatory positions.

The folks over at Oxford Dictionary on Racism

Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a
different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

So then we follow up with Race

Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics.

A group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group.

So then we need to infer intent. Since it's clear the comment:

"I'll probably be Iranian. That'd be, like, terrible."

The comment definitely isn't speaking about Iranians in a positive tone or sense. I'm not going to include the rest of the exchange because the hosts on the show quickly re-contextualize his comment:

"Well, they have great people, just bad leaders," co-host Brian Kilmeade said.

That's not a re-contextualization from Mr.Graham, but from the news anchors. So now they're guiding him, in defining the meaning of his quote. Or leading him to a better answer / position.

So, he's discriminating against a people but we haven't proven one part of the accusation:

based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

We need to determine whether Mr.Graham indeed holds this value. Because he is clearly holding a very deep discriminatory attitude towards Iranians.

An interesting additional quote...

"Everything I know about the Iranians I learned at the pool room," [Graham] said. "I met a lot of liars, and I know the Iranians are lying."

However... Graham has been really solid in his defense of Islam and it's clear he comes from a well meaning position.

In terms of definitions, Mr.Graham is likely a bigot

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

...and it's clear Mr.Graham is "obstinately devoted" to his perception of Iranians.

Bigotry and Racism often get lumped together, so it's possible the definitions get mixed up. The accusation of Racism, is often more of an assessment of a person's openness to others, rather than some direct sense of racial superiority.

Is Graham's quote racist? Maybe not by definition. But the common use term of Racism is very complex and nuanced, and it's likely many people would consider it racist. If you replace the word Iranian with any race, it's VERY bad...

"I'll probably be Black. That'd be, like, terrible."

Or Consider....

"Everything I know about the Blacks I learned at the pool room," [Graham] said. "I met a lot of liars, and I know the Blacks are lying."

This simple word replacement really does demonstrate the intent. In my view, it's not racist by definition, but the tone is spot on.

Remember definition of race is actually quite ambiguous... and depending on your definitions of race... and racism... Mr.Graham is indeed making a racist remark.

Then there's a larger context: Elizabeth Warren released DNA tests in response to a claim Donald Trump made about her. There's an unsettling inference from Mr.Graham's joke. He's saying "If I took a test, I might discover I have DNA from a group of people I consider unfavorable." Implying, that Warren's test is a link to an "unfavorable" group of people.

Update:
Race has come up in the discussion and I need to point out that race,isn't a real scientific distinction and it's purely a fabrication of the culture. Which means, that the broad definitions of race, will often help define how the term "racism" is directed and used. Since race and racism are linked, there's a real chance, they're interconnected. Which means the application of racism is likely tightly coupled to one's perception of race (including Mr.Graham's).

To quote my source...

Science today tells us that the visible differences between peoples are accidents of history. They reflect how our ancestors dealt with sun exposure, and not much else.

This rather ignores the current political brough-hah with the country of Iran. As you point out, context is important. — 4 hours ago
This completely ignores the fact that "Iranian" is not a race. — 3 hours ago
@jamesqf it isn't really an answerer's responsibility to bring up that fact. The remarks are clearly premised on the notion that "Iranian" is a race that can be identified in a DNA test. Given that Iran's majority ethnic group has no other major populations outside Iran, it's pretty easy to understand the technically imprecise meaning of the comments, so to say they are not strictly 100% coherent because they're erroneous doesn't really help get at whether they were racist or not. — 3 hours ago
@ShinEmperor This answer over-relies on the language used in the definitions that are linked. Interestingly, if you swap to use Merriam-Webser's definition of 'racism' and OED's definition of 'bigot', large segments on this answer cease to be relevant or valid. — 2 hours ago
@jamesqf I encourage you to click on the definition of race. There are in fact, several versions of this definition that have nothing to do with DNA. For example "A group or set of people or things with a common feature or features." Features is extremely ambiguous, and thus, might indicate that genetic ancestry isn't a defining feature of being a "race"... I'll update my answer to address this. — 2 hours ago

BobE 2,3261725 · Answer 2 · 2018-10-19 13:48:04Z

up vote
4
down vote

Viral because it's a inappropriate stupid remark, not racist (by my definition) because "Iranian" is not a race of people.

Could Iranian-Americans be offended? - sure, because the Senator is implying that a DNA test proposing that he had some Iranian blood would be offensive to him.

answered 6 hours ago

BobE

2,3261725

Exactly at the first place when I heard these notes, I said: Iran is a nation not a specific race cause the race of Iranian people could be classified as Caucasian.
â€“Â Alone Programmer
6 hours ago

On the other hand, I have some personal positive feedback from Graham and I could say he helped me in some situations. So, it looks a bit strange to me...
â€“Â Alone Programmer
6 hours ago

12

"X is not a race" isn't a very good argument to mark something as not racist. The concept of race itself isn't a biological one, but a social one (that's why Italiens or the Irish (and to a lesser extend Jews) could migrate from "not (really) white" to just white; Iranians seem to have moved in the opposite direction; the average modern racist would definitely not classify the average Iranian as white).
â€“Â tim
5 hours ago

1

I'm not saying that Grahams comment was definitely racist, but I think it requires more analysis of the context than just saying Iranian isn't a race. If it was basically an "Iran (the country) is (currently) bad", that's not racist (just possibly offensive); if it's "Having 'brown' DNA is terrible" (ie using Iranian as a stand-in for Persian), then that would be racist (even though Persian is also "not a race").
â€“Â tim
5 hours ago

2

@AloneProgrammer If Grahams point was that he prefers to be 100% "white" - ie not having his DNA test reveal that some of his ancestors were not what might be considered "white" (eg Persian) -, then that would be racist.
â€“Â tim
4 hours ago

Â |Â
show 1 more comment

Carduus 3,895822 · Answer 3 · 2018-10-19 13:56:42Z

up vote
1
down vote

The first part of his comment basically came down to something like: "Every American has at least one ancestor that makes them not truly 'white'." Meaning that Warren isn't anything special by having one Native American ancestor 150 years ago, and that it seems like 'luck' determines the 'odd' ancestor. The second part was trying to engage in self-depreciating humor, saying that with his (bad) luck, he'd take an ancestry test and find out he had an Iranian ancestor. This is only funny because he believes Iranian/Persian to be the worst possible result.

When he walked back his comment, he mentioned the Iranian government/regime was bad, not its people. But the 'joke' doesn't work if he was referring to political affiliation, not ancestry, so it's a bit confusing what he actually meant.

answered 6 hours ago

Carduus

3,895822

I can't understand what a true "white" means. I mean Iranian people are white and they are classified as Caucasian race so still it's not clear to me what makes the result of having an Iranian ancestor a worst case? Also of course Iranian government or regime is not connected to the race of people. So I got more confused...
â€“Â Alone Programmer
6 hours ago

3

This is what makes it racist. There is no such thing as true 'white'. The Nazis believed 'pure' whiteness was Nordic stock: blonde hair, blue eyes, fair skin, and attempted breeding programs and eugenics to promote this idea. Graham is still in a post-9/11 conservative mindset that any Middle Easterner is a potential terrorist. So if he had Middle-Eastern blood, he might be a closet terrorist.
â€“Â Carduus
6 hours ago

1

Even by using Nazi's standards to define what a true "white" means, still the Iranian people could be classified as true "white" race cause before WWII occupation of Iran by UK, US, and Soviet Union, Hitler had a close relation with imperial government of Iran at that time. I don't wanna be racist but I think there was more clear choices for his joke if he looks at the citizenship of 9/11 hijackers. But it seems he chose Iranian people cause he thinks they're the weakest ones and can't counter back his offence.
â€“Â Alone Programmer
6 hours ago

1

@Alone Programmer or because there's a rather large spat currently ongoing between the USA and Iran.
â€“Â Orangesandlemons
4 hours ago

@Carduus: Careful with that, because most Iranians will definitely inform you that they are not Arabic (an ethnic race, not a religion), but Persian (also an ethnic race, not a religion). Both are Islamic, but Iran is a Shi'a State, not a Sunni State (Both are Islamic, but they hold different beliefs. The big divide is on the legitimate successor to Muhammad. Shi'a says its a lineage based successor, Sunnie says it's an elected position... The closest Christian element would be the different sects feelings on the authority of the Pope.).
â€“Â hszmv
1 hour ago

Â |Â
show 2 more comments

score 13 · Answer 4 · 2018-10-19 17:55:07Z

Let's get academic about it. I think the term racism is often used to address a basket of discriminatory positions.

The folks over at Oxford Dictionary on Racism

Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a
different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

So then we follow up with Race

Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics.

A group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group.

So then we need to infer intent. Since it's clear the comment:

"I'll probably be Iranian. That'd be, like, terrible."

The comment definitely isn't speaking about Iranians in a positive tone or sense. I'm not going to include the rest of the exchange because the hosts on the show quickly re-contextualize his comment:

"Well, they have great people, just bad leaders," co-host Brian Kilmeade said.

That's not a re-contextualization from Mr.Graham, but from the news anchors. So now they're guiding him, in defining the meaning of his quote. Or leading him to a better answer / position.

So, he's discriminating against a people but we haven't proven one part of the accusation:

based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

We need to determine whether Mr.Graham indeed holds this value. Because he is clearly holding a very deep discriminatory attitude towards Iranians.

An interesting additional quote...

"Everything I know about the Iranians I learned at the pool room," [Graham] said. "I met a lot of liars, and I know the Iranians are lying."

However... Graham has been really solid in his defense of Islam and it's clear he comes from a well meaning position.

In terms of definitions, Mr.Graham is likely a bigot

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

...and it's clear Mr.Graham is "obstinately devoted" to his perception of Iranians.

Bigotry and Racism often get lumped together, so it's possible the definitions get mixed up. The accusation of Racism, is often more of an assessment of a person's openness to others, rather than some direct sense of racial superiority.

Is Graham's quote racist? Maybe not by definition. But the common use term of Racism is very complex and nuanced, and it's likely many people would consider it racist. If you replace the word Iranian with any race, it's VERY bad...

"I'll probably be Black. That'd be, like, terrible."

Or Consider....

"Everything I know about the Blacks I learned at the pool room," [Graham] said. "I met a lot of liars, and I know the Blacks are lying."

This simple word replacement really does demonstrate the intent. In my view, it's not racist by definition, but the tone is spot on.

Remember definition of race is actually quite ambiguous... and depending on your definitions of race... and racism... Mr.Graham is indeed making a racist remark.

Then there's a larger context: Elizabeth Warren released DNA tests in response to a claim Donald Trump made about her. There's an unsettling inference from Mr.Graham's joke. He's saying "If I took a test, I might discover I have DNA from a group of people I consider unfavorable." Implying, that Warren's test is a link to an "unfavorable" group of people.

Update:
Race has come up in the discussion and I need to point out that race,isn't a real scientific distinction and it's purely a fabrication of the culture. Which means, that the broad definitions of race, will often help define how the term "racism" is directed and used. Since race and racism are linked, there's a real chance, they're interconnected. Which means the application of racism is likely tightly coupled to one's perception of race (including Mr.Graham's).

To quote my source...

Science today tells us that the visible differences between peoples are accidents of history. They reflect how our ancestors dealt with sun exposure, and not much else.

This rather ignores the current political brough-hah with the country of Iran. As you point out, context is important. — 4 hours ago
This completely ignores the fact that "Iranian" is not a race. — 3 hours ago
@jamesqf it isn't really an answerer's responsibility to bring up that fact. The remarks are clearly premised on the notion that "Iranian" is a race that can be identified in a DNA test. Given that Iran's majority ethnic group has no other major populations outside Iran, it's pretty easy to understand the technically imprecise meaning of the comments, so to say they are not strictly 100% coherent because they're erroneous doesn't really help get at whether they were racist or not. — 3 hours ago
@ShinEmperor This answer over-relies on the language used in the definitions that are linked. Interestingly, if you swap to use Merriam-Webser's definition of 'racism' and OED's definition of 'bigot', large segments on this answer cease to be relevant or valid. — 2 hours ago
@jamesqf I encourage you to click on the definition of race. There are in fact, several versions of this definition that have nothing to do with DNA. For example "A group or set of people or things with a common feature or features." Features is extremely ambiguous, and thus, might indicate that genetic ancestry isn't a defining feature of being a "race"... I'll update my answer to address this. — 2 hours ago

BobE 2,3261725 · Answer 5 · 2018-10-19 13:48:04Z

up vote
4
down vote

Viral because it's a inappropriate stupid remark, not racist (by my definition) because "Iranian" is not a race of people.

Could Iranian-Americans be offended? - sure, because the Senator is implying that a DNA test proposing that he had some Iranian blood would be offensive to him.

answered 6 hours ago

BobE

2,3261725

Exactly at the first place when I heard these notes, I said: Iran is a nation not a specific race cause the race of Iranian people could be classified as Caucasian.
â€“Â Alone Programmer
6 hours ago

On the other hand, I have some personal positive feedback from Graham and I could say he helped me in some situations. So, it looks a bit strange to me...
â€“Â Alone Programmer
6 hours ago

12

"X is not a race" isn't a very good argument to mark something as not racist. The concept of race itself isn't a biological one, but a social one (that's why Italiens or the Irish (and to a lesser extend Jews) could migrate from "not (really) white" to just white; Iranians seem to have moved in the opposite direction; the average modern racist would definitely not classify the average Iranian as white).
â€“Â tim
5 hours ago

1

I'm not saying that Grahams comment was definitely racist, but I think it requires more analysis of the context than just saying Iranian isn't a race. If it was basically an "Iran (the country) is (currently) bad", that's not racist (just possibly offensive); if it's "Having 'brown' DNA is terrible" (ie using Iranian as a stand-in for Persian), then that would be racist (even though Persian is also "not a race").
â€“Â tim
5 hours ago

2

@AloneProgrammer If Grahams point was that he prefers to be 100% "white" - ie not having his DNA test reveal that some of his ancestors were not what might be considered "white" (eg Persian) -, then that would be racist.
â€“Â tim
4 hours ago

Â |Â
show 1 more comment

Carduus 3,895822 · Answer 6 · 2018-10-19 13:56:42Z

up vote
1
down vote

The first part of his comment basically came down to something like: "Every American has at least one ancestor that makes them not truly 'white'." Meaning that Warren isn't anything special by having one Native American ancestor 150 years ago, and that it seems like 'luck' determines the 'odd' ancestor. The second part was trying to engage in self-depreciating humor, saying that with his (bad) luck, he'd take an ancestry test and find out he had an Iranian ancestor. This is only funny because he believes Iranian/Persian to be the worst possible result.

When he walked back his comment, he mentioned the Iranian government/regime was bad, not its people. But the 'joke' doesn't work if he was referring to political affiliation, not ancestry, so it's a bit confusing what he actually meant.

answered 6 hours ago

Carduus

3,895822

I can't understand what a true "white" means. I mean Iranian people are white and they are classified as Caucasian race so still it's not clear to me what makes the result of having an Iranian ancestor a worst case? Also of course Iranian government or regime is not connected to the race of people. So I got more confused...
â€“Â Alone Programmer
6 hours ago

3

This is what makes it racist. There is no such thing as true 'white'. The Nazis believed 'pure' whiteness was Nordic stock: blonde hair, blue eyes, fair skin, and attempted breeding programs and eugenics to promote this idea. Graham is still in a post-9/11 conservative mindset that any Middle Easterner is a potential terrorist. So if he had Middle-Eastern blood, he might be a closet terrorist.
â€“Â Carduus
6 hours ago

1

Even by using Nazi's standards to define what a true "white" means, still the Iranian people could be classified as true "white" race cause before WWII occupation of Iran by UK, US, and Soviet Union, Hitler had a close relation with imperial government of Iran at that time. I don't wanna be racist but I think there was more clear choices for his joke if he looks at the citizenship of 9/11 hijackers. But it seems he chose Iranian people cause he thinks they're the weakest ones and can't counter back his offence.
â€“Â Alone Programmer
6 hours ago

1

@Alone Programmer or because there's a rather large spat currently ongoing between the USA and Iran.
â€“Â Orangesandlemons
4 hours ago

@Carduus: Careful with that, because most Iranians will definitely inform you that they are not Arabic (an ethnic race, not a religion), but Persian (also an ethnic race, not a religion). Both are Islamic, but Iran is a Shi'a State, not a Sunni State (Both are Islamic, but they hold different beliefs. The big divide is on the legitimate successor to Muhammad. Shi'a says its a lineage based successor, Sunnie says it's an elected position... The closest Christian element would be the different sects feelings on the authority of the Pope.).
â€“Â hszmv
1 hour ago

Â |Â
show 2 more comments

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