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Does a natural 20 on the attack roll still automatically hit if the target is wearing adamantine armor?
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My Fighter (Battlemaster) Warlock (Hexblade) build character has just acquired a suit of +1 adamantine plate armour.
From the description of adamantine armor (DMG, p. 150):
This suit of armor is reinforced with adamantine, one of the hardest substances in existence. While you're wearing it, any critical hit against you becomes a normal hit.
Is a roll of a natural 20 (which is normally a critical hit) still automatically a hit, despite the critical becoming a "normal hit" because of the armour? Or would the attacker need to exceed my AC in order to score the "normal hit" if (for instance) I cast shield or use the Evasive Footwork maneuver to boost AC?
My AC is 20, so with shield cast it becomes 25; for example, would a goblin with a +4 attack modifier score a hit on a roll of 20 against me? A total of 24 would not be sufficient to "hit" under normal rules, but does the "20 is always a hit" mechanism override this despite the critical being cancelled by the adamantine armour?
dnd-5e armor critical-hit special-materials
edited 25 mins ago
V2Blast
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up vote
24
down vote
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My Fighter (Battlemaster) Warlock (Hexblade) build character has just acquired a suit of +1 adamantine plate armour.
From the description of adamantine armor (DMG, p. 150):
This suit of armor is reinforced with adamantine, one of the hardest substances in existence. While you're wearing it, any critical hit against you becomes a normal hit.
Is a roll of a natural 20 (which is normally a critical hit) still automatically a hit, despite the critical becoming a "normal hit" because of the armour? Or would the attacker need to exceed my AC in order to score the "normal hit" if (for instance) I cast shield or use the Evasive Footwork maneuver to boost AC?
My AC is 20, so with shield cast it becomes 25; for example, would a goblin with a +4 attack modifier score a hit on a roll of 20 against me? A total of 24 would not be sufficient to "hit" under normal rules, but does the "20 is always a hit" mechanism override this despite the critical being cancelled by the adamantine armour?
dnd-5e armor critical-hit special-materials
edited 25 mins ago
V2Blast
17.1k245108
asked 12 hours ago
Vnmrtn
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Vnmrtn is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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Hello and welcome! You can take the tour for a quick site intro (and a badge!). This looks like an interesting question to me. Thank you for participating!
– Sdjz
12 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
24
down vote
favorite
up vote
24
down vote
favorite
My Fighter (Battlemaster) Warlock (Hexblade) build character has just acquired a suit of +1 adamantine plate armour.
From the description of adamantine armor (DMG, p. 150):
This suit of armor is reinforced with adamantine, one of the hardest substances in existence. While you're wearing it, any critical hit against you becomes a normal hit.
Is a roll of a natural 20 (which is normally a critical hit) still automatically a hit, despite the critical becoming a "normal hit" because of the armour? Or would the attacker need to exceed my AC in order to score the "normal hit" if (for instance) I cast shield or use the Evasive Footwork maneuver to boost AC?
My AC is 20, so with shield cast it becomes 25; for example, would a goblin with a +4 attack modifier score a hit on a roll of 20 against me? A total of 24 would not be sufficient to "hit" under normal rules, but does the "20 is always a hit" mechanism override this despite the critical being cancelled by the adamantine armour?
dnd-5e armor critical-hit special-materials
edited 25 mins ago
V2Blast
17.1k245108
asked 12 hours ago
Vnmrtn
1273
New contributor
Vnmrtn is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
My Fighter (Battlemaster) Warlock (Hexblade) build character has just acquired a suit of +1 adamantine plate armour.
From the description of adamantine armor (DMG, p. 150):
This suit of armor is reinforced with adamantine, one of the hardest substances in existence. While you're wearing it, any critical hit against you becomes a normal hit.
Is a roll of a natural 20 (which is normally a critical hit) still automatically a hit, despite the critical becoming a "normal hit" because of the armour? Or would the attacker need to exceed my AC in order to score the "normal hit" if (for instance) I cast shield or use the Evasive Footwork maneuver to boost AC?
My AC is 20, so with shield cast it becomes 25; for example, would a goblin with a +4 attack modifier score a hit on a roll of 20 against me? A total of 24 would not be sufficient to "hit" under normal rules, but does the "20 is always a hit" mechanism override this despite the critical being cancelled by the adamantine armour?
dnd-5e armor critical-hit special-materials
dnd-5e armor critical-hit special-materials
edited 25 mins ago
V2Blast
17.1k245108
asked 12 hours ago
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edited 25 mins ago
V2Blast
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asked 12 hours ago
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edited 25 mins ago
V2Blast
17.1k245108
edited 25 mins ago
V2Blast
17.1k245108
edited 25 mins ago
V2Blast
17.1k245108
17.1k245108
asked 12 hours ago
Vnmrtn
1273
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asked 12 hours ago
Vnmrtn
1273
asked 12 hours ago
Vnmrtn
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1273
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Vnmrtn is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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New contributor
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Hello and welcome! You can take the tour for a quick site intro (and a badge!). This looks like an interesting question to me. Thank you for participating!
– Sdjz
12 hours ago
add a comment |Â
Hello and welcome! You can take the tour for a quick site intro (and a badge!). This looks like an interesting question to me. Thank you for participating!
– Sdjz
12 hours ago
Hello and welcome! You can take the tour for a quick site intro (and a badge!). This looks like an interesting question to me. Thank you for participating!
– Sdjz
12 hours ago
Hello and welcome! You can take the tour for a quick site intro (and a badge!). This looks like an interesting question to me. Thank you for participating!
– Sdjz
12 hours ago
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
up vote
38
down vote
Yes, the natural 20 is still an automatic hit
Jeremy Crawford, the 5e lead rules designer, made an official ruling over twitter saying as much:
Q: Does the nat 20 still auto hit against adamantine armor?
A: Yes.
The language of the item also supports this ruling. As you quoted, the armor states:
While you're wearing it, any critical hit against you becomes a normal hit.
A critical hit is, by definition, an automatic hit. The item doesn't say that the attack is a miss unless it exceeds your armor class even with a natural twenty. It says that critical hits against you become normal hits.
So, that suggests the following sequence of events:
- Attack roll is made against you
- The roll is a natural 20, which means it's an automatic hit
- The effect of the armor kicks in, the critical hit becomes a regular hit.
By the time the item interferes, we've already established the attack as a hit and the armor doesn't undo that hit; it reduces the severity of the hit.
But What about for Champion Fighters?
Champion Fighters have class features which give them an expanded critical hit range
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
Starting at 15th level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18–20.
It's already been established in a related question that these improved criticals are also automatic hits
Improved Critical specifically says you score a critical hit on a 19 or 20. A critical hit is a type of hit; by scoring one, you've also scored a hit. If the word 'critical' wasn't there, the ability would certainly read as if you couldn't miss on a 19 or 20.
So, the attack is a critical hit, which means that the adamantine armor makes it a confirmed normal hit. So, if you face any creatures with improved critical hit ranges, they will still automatically hit you on a natural roll that falls within their range. However, those automatic hits become regular hits just like a critical hit from a natural 20.
edited 7 hours ago
András
23.9k1089179
answered 12 hours ago
Adam
18.8k475126
3
Sage Advice stated Improved critical 19-20 and 18-20 rolls are auto hits as well. Counts as a normal hit in regards to not doubling the damage dice.
– XAQT78
10 hours ago
@XAQT78 Noted and answer updated. Though I pointed to a related question on this site about that point since this is just for completeness, rather than a direct issue brought up by the querent.
– Adam
10 hours ago
BONUS ROUND: Does a Vorpal Blade still decapitate you?
– Daniel Zastoupil
7 hours ago
@DanielZastoupil That's reasonably different enough to warrant its own question me thinks.
– Adam
7 hours ago
I would totally make one, but I don't have any actual sources of the 5E Vorpal Blade, I only know exactly what it does, so I don't really have any accurate way of quoting the effects.
– Daniel Zastoupil
7 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
-5
down vote
Improved Criticals Sage Advice
Any critical is treated as a normal hit in regards to the damage dice.
edited 9 hours ago
SevenSidedDie♦
200k26637918
answered 11 hours ago
XAQT78
419110
3
This answer doesn't really add anything compared to Adam's, which was posted earlier. It's mostly just a rant.
– Theik
9 hours ago
1
I’ve removed the rant. Please stay on topic when posting at RPG.se, and especially avoid ranting.
– SevenSidedDie♦
9 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
-5
down vote
Indeterminate, and it opens another can of worms...
There is some legitimate dispute on this one. The Basic Rules have the following passage:
Rolling 1 or 20. [...]If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. This is called a critical hit, which is explained later in this section.
Later on in the Damage Rolls section, it describes the damage effects of a critical hit. It all seems clear at this point - a natural 20 being automatic hit and a critical hit are the same thing.
However, when we look at the champion fighter's Improved Critical ability, we have:
Improved Critical. Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
"Rolling 1 or 20" indicates that the die roll automatically hits, and calls it a critical hit. Champion fighter also calls a 19 or 20 a critical hit. Does that mean a 19 is also an automatic hit just like a 20?
Options
As much as I am loathe to say it, this is a DM discretion call. While there are some designer-intent posts on Twitter, they have not made it into an officially published errata. Considering the number of times those seemingly official posts have made a call then reverted it, they should all be considered suspect.
There are two logically internally, consistent choices:
If the DM wishes to consider an "automatic hit" and the dice-doubling "critical hit" to be separate things.- On a 20, adamantine stops the damage ("critical hit"), but the "automatic hit" carries through because a 20 always hits.
- Champion fighters automatically hit on 20s, but not 19s (a 19 is a "critical hit" but not an "automatic hit".).
If the DM wishes to consider "automatic hit" and the dice-doubling "critical hit" as synonymous:- Adamantine stops the dice-doubling from the "critical hit" and, because they're the same thing, also stops the "automatic hit" (compare the total attack roll to the AC).
- Champion fighters count 19s (and eventually 18s) as "critical hits", which means they are also "automatic hits".
To put it differently... any two of them (the combat rules, adamantine armor, and the champion fighter), isolated from the third, doesn't leave much room for doubt. It is the interaction of all three passages that creates ambiguity.
I've specifically avoided sharing my opinion, and presented two possible interpretations. The published rules don't provide sufficient clarity or weight to make an iron-clad determination either way.
answered 12 hours ago
T.J.L.
26.3k381141
@XAQT78 In your opinion, sure. I've specifically avoided sharing my opinion, and instead presented the two possible and logically-consistent interpretations. My point is that the published rules don't provide sufficient clarity to make an iron-clad determination either way.
– T.J.L.
11 hours ago
Do the downvoters really think the rules as written are that clear?
– T.J.L.
11 hours ago
4
I do think it's clear that a natural 20 is an automatic hit. Related on Does a critical hit from an expanded crit range always hit regardless of AC?
– NautArch
11 hours ago
3
I don't think option 2 is logically consistent. The item description says the critical hit turns into a regular hit. It says it right in the description that the attack is a confirmed hit and says nothing about having to recalculate whether the attack is a hit or not.
– Adam
10 hours ago
1
@T.J.L. I'm using the term to describe the state where something made an attack roll, and it's been established that based on the reading of the rules, the attack has scored a hit. The term "confirmed" is just a little something extra in there for emphasis. You can remove it from the sentence and it doesn't strictly change anything about my point: An attack that is labeled a "hit" cannot by the very definition of the term "hit" be in a state where you don't know if the attack has scored a hit or not.
– Adam
7 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
38
down vote
Yes, the natural 20 is still an automatic hit
Jeremy Crawford, the 5e lead rules designer, made an official ruling over twitter saying as much:
Q: Does the nat 20 still auto hit against adamantine armor?
A: Yes.
The language of the item also supports this ruling. As you quoted, the armor states:
While you're wearing it, any critical hit against you becomes a normal hit.
A critical hit is, by definition, an automatic hit. The item doesn't say that the attack is a miss unless it exceeds your armor class even with a natural twenty. It says that critical hits against you become normal hits.
So, that suggests the following sequence of events:
- Attack roll is made against you
- The roll is a natural 20, which means it's an automatic hit
- The effect of the armor kicks in, the critical hit becomes a regular hit.
By the time the item interferes, we've already established the attack as a hit and the armor doesn't undo that hit; it reduces the severity of the hit.
But What about for Champion Fighters?
Champion Fighters have class features which give them an expanded critical hit range
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
Starting at 15th level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18–20.
It's already been established in a related question that these improved criticals are also automatic hits
Improved Critical specifically says you score a critical hit on a 19 or 20. A critical hit is a type of hit; by scoring one, you've also scored a hit. If the word 'critical' wasn't there, the ability would certainly read as if you couldn't miss on a 19 or 20.
So, the attack is a critical hit, which means that the adamantine armor makes it a confirmed normal hit. So, if you face any creatures with improved critical hit ranges, they will still automatically hit you on a natural roll that falls within their range. However, those automatic hits become regular hits just like a critical hit from a natural 20.
edited 7 hours ago
András
23.9k1089179
answered 12 hours ago
Adam
18.8k475126
3
Sage Advice stated Improved critical 19-20 and 18-20 rolls are auto hits as well. Counts as a normal hit in regards to not doubling the damage dice.
– XAQT78
10 hours ago
@XAQT78 Noted and answer updated. Though I pointed to a related question on this site about that point since this is just for completeness, rather than a direct issue brought up by the querent.
– Adam
10 hours ago
BONUS ROUND: Does a Vorpal Blade still decapitate you?
– Daniel Zastoupil
7 hours ago
@DanielZastoupil That's reasonably different enough to warrant its own question me thinks.
– Adam
7 hours ago
I would totally make one, but I don't have any actual sources of the 5E Vorpal Blade, I only know exactly what it does, so I don't really have any accurate way of quoting the effects.
– Daniel Zastoupil
7 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
38
down vote
Yes, the natural 20 is still an automatic hit
Jeremy Crawford, the 5e lead rules designer, made an official ruling over twitter saying as much:
Q: Does the nat 20 still auto hit against adamantine armor?
A: Yes.
The language of the item also supports this ruling. As you quoted, the armor states:
While you're wearing it, any critical hit against you becomes a normal hit.
A critical hit is, by definition, an automatic hit. The item doesn't say that the attack is a miss unless it exceeds your armor class even with a natural twenty. It says that critical hits against you become normal hits.
So, that suggests the following sequence of events:
- Attack roll is made against you
- The roll is a natural 20, which means it's an automatic hit
- The effect of the armor kicks in, the critical hit becomes a regular hit.
By the time the item interferes, we've already established the attack as a hit and the armor doesn't undo that hit; it reduces the severity of the hit.
But What about for Champion Fighters?
Champion Fighters have class features which give them an expanded critical hit range
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
Starting at 15th level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18–20.
It's already been established in a related question that these improved criticals are also automatic hits
Improved Critical specifically says you score a critical hit on a 19 or 20. A critical hit is a type of hit; by scoring one, you've also scored a hit. If the word 'critical' wasn't there, the ability would certainly read as if you couldn't miss on a 19 or 20.
So, the attack is a critical hit, which means that the adamantine armor makes it a confirmed normal hit. So, if you face any creatures with improved critical hit ranges, they will still automatically hit you on a natural roll that falls within their range. However, those automatic hits become regular hits just like a critical hit from a natural 20.
edited 7 hours ago
András
23.9k1089179
answered 12 hours ago
Adam
18.8k475126
3
Sage Advice stated Improved critical 19-20 and 18-20 rolls are auto hits as well. Counts as a normal hit in regards to not doubling the damage dice.
– XAQT78
10 hours ago
@XAQT78 Noted and answer updated. Though I pointed to a related question on this site about that point since this is just for completeness, rather than a direct issue brought up by the querent.
– Adam
10 hours ago
BONUS ROUND: Does a Vorpal Blade still decapitate you?
– Daniel Zastoupil
7 hours ago
@DanielZastoupil That's reasonably different enough to warrant its own question me thinks.
– Adam
7 hours ago
I would totally make one, but I don't have any actual sources of the 5E Vorpal Blade, I only know exactly what it does, so I don't really have any accurate way of quoting the effects.
– Daniel Zastoupil
7 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
38
down vote
up vote
38
down vote
Yes, the natural 20 is still an automatic hit
Jeremy Crawford, the 5e lead rules designer, made an official ruling over twitter saying as much:
Q: Does the nat 20 still auto hit against adamantine armor?
A: Yes.
The language of the item also supports this ruling. As you quoted, the armor states:
While you're wearing it, any critical hit against you becomes a normal hit.
A critical hit is, by definition, an automatic hit. The item doesn't say that the attack is a miss unless it exceeds your armor class even with a natural twenty. It says that critical hits against you become normal hits.
So, that suggests the following sequence of events:
- Attack roll is made against you
- The roll is a natural 20, which means it's an automatic hit
- The effect of the armor kicks in, the critical hit becomes a regular hit.
By the time the item interferes, we've already established the attack as a hit and the armor doesn't undo that hit; it reduces the severity of the hit.
But What about for Champion Fighters?
Champion Fighters have class features which give them an expanded critical hit range
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
Starting at 15th level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18–20.
It's already been established in a related question that these improved criticals are also automatic hits
Improved Critical specifically says you score a critical hit on a 19 or 20. A critical hit is a type of hit; by scoring one, you've also scored a hit. If the word 'critical' wasn't there, the ability would certainly read as if you couldn't miss on a 19 or 20.
So, the attack is a critical hit, which means that the adamantine armor makes it a confirmed normal hit. So, if you face any creatures with improved critical hit ranges, they will still automatically hit you on a natural roll that falls within their range. However, those automatic hits become regular hits just like a critical hit from a natural 20.
edited 7 hours ago
András
23.9k1089179
answered 12 hours ago
Adam
18.8k475126
Yes, the natural 20 is still an automatic hit
Jeremy Crawford, the 5e lead rules designer, made an official ruling over twitter saying as much:
Q: Does the nat 20 still auto hit against adamantine armor?
A: Yes.
The language of the item also supports this ruling. As you quoted, the armor states:
While you're wearing it, any critical hit against you becomes a normal hit.
A critical hit is, by definition, an automatic hit. The item doesn't say that the attack is a miss unless it exceeds your armor class even with a natural twenty. It says that critical hits against you become normal hits.
So, that suggests the following sequence of events:
- Attack roll is made against you
- The roll is a natural 20, which means it's an automatic hit
- The effect of the armor kicks in, the critical hit becomes a regular hit.
By the time the item interferes, we've already established the attack as a hit and the armor doesn't undo that hit; it reduces the severity of the hit.
But What about for Champion Fighters?
Champion Fighters have class features which give them an expanded critical hit range
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
Starting at 15th level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18–20.
It's already been established in a related question that these improved criticals are also automatic hits
Improved Critical specifically says you score a critical hit on a 19 or 20. A critical hit is a type of hit; by scoring one, you've also scored a hit. If the word 'critical' wasn't there, the ability would certainly read as if you couldn't miss on a 19 or 20.
So, the attack is a critical hit, which means that the adamantine armor makes it a confirmed normal hit. So, if you face any creatures with improved critical hit ranges, they will still automatically hit you on a natural roll that falls within their range. However, those automatic hits become regular hits just like a critical hit from a natural 20.
edited 7 hours ago
András
23.9k1089179
answered 12 hours ago
Adam
18.8k475126
edited 7 hours ago
András
23.9k1089179
edited 7 hours ago
András
23.9k1089179
edited 7 hours ago
András
23.9k1089179
23.9k1089179
answered 12 hours ago
Adam
18.8k475126
answered 12 hours ago
Adam
18.8k475126
answered 12 hours ago
Adam
18.8k475126
18.8k475126
3
Sage Advice stated Improved critical 19-20 and 18-20 rolls are auto hits as well. Counts as a normal hit in regards to not doubling the damage dice.
– XAQT78
10 hours ago
@XAQT78 Noted and answer updated. Though I pointed to a related question on this site about that point since this is just for completeness, rather than a direct issue brought up by the querent.
– Adam
10 hours ago
BONUS ROUND: Does a Vorpal Blade still decapitate you?
– Daniel Zastoupil
7 hours ago
@DanielZastoupil That's reasonably different enough to warrant its own question me thinks.
– Adam
7 hours ago
I would totally make one, but I don't have any actual sources of the 5E Vorpal Blade, I only know exactly what it does, so I don't really have any accurate way of quoting the effects.
– Daniel Zastoupil
7 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
3
Sage Advice stated Improved critical 19-20 and 18-20 rolls are auto hits as well. Counts as a normal hit in regards to not doubling the damage dice.
– XAQT78
10 hours ago
@XAQT78 Noted and answer updated. Though I pointed to a related question on this site about that point since this is just for completeness, rather than a direct issue brought up by the querent.
– Adam
10 hours ago
BONUS ROUND: Does a Vorpal Blade still decapitate you?
– Daniel Zastoupil
7 hours ago
@DanielZastoupil That's reasonably different enough to warrant its own question me thinks.
– Adam
7 hours ago
I would totally make one, but I don't have any actual sources of the 5E Vorpal Blade, I only know exactly what it does, so I don't really have any accurate way of quoting the effects.
– Daniel Zastoupil
7 hours ago
3
3
Sage Advice stated Improved critical 19-20 and 18-20 rolls are auto hits as well. Counts as a normal hit in regards to not doubling the damage dice.
– XAQT78
10 hours ago
Sage Advice stated Improved critical 19-20 and 18-20 rolls are auto hits as well. Counts as a normal hit in regards to not doubling the damage dice.
– XAQT78
10 hours ago
@XAQT78 Noted and answer updated. Though I pointed to a related question on this site about that point since this is just for completeness, rather than a direct issue brought up by the querent.
– Adam
10 hours ago
@XAQT78 Noted and answer updated. Though I pointed to a related question on this site about that point since this is just for completeness, rather than a direct issue brought up by the querent.
– Adam
10 hours ago
BONUS ROUND: Does a Vorpal Blade still decapitate you?
– Daniel Zastoupil
7 hours ago
BONUS ROUND: Does a Vorpal Blade still decapitate you?
– Daniel Zastoupil
7 hours ago
@DanielZastoupil That's reasonably different enough to warrant its own question me thinks.
– Adam
7 hours ago
@DanielZastoupil That's reasonably different enough to warrant its own question me thinks.
– Adam
7 hours ago
I would totally make one, but I don't have any actual sources of the 5E Vorpal Blade, I only know exactly what it does, so I don't really have any accurate way of quoting the effects.
– Daniel Zastoupil
7 hours ago
I would totally make one, but I don't have any actual sources of the 5E Vorpal Blade, I only know exactly what it does, so I don't really have any accurate way of quoting the effects.
– Daniel Zastoupil
7 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
-5
down vote
Improved Criticals Sage Advice
Any critical is treated as a normal hit in regards to the damage dice.
edited 9 hours ago
SevenSidedDie♦
200k26637918
answered 11 hours ago
XAQT78
419110
3
This answer doesn't really add anything compared to Adam's, which was posted earlier. It's mostly just a rant.
– Theik
9 hours ago
1
I’ve removed the rant. Please stay on topic when posting at RPG.se, and especially avoid ranting.
– SevenSidedDie♦
9 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
-5
down vote
Improved Criticals Sage Advice
Any critical is treated as a normal hit in regards to the damage dice.
edited 9 hours ago
SevenSidedDie♦
200k26637918
answered 11 hours ago
XAQT78
419110
3
This answer doesn't really add anything compared to Adam's, which was posted earlier. It's mostly just a rant.
– Theik
9 hours ago
1
I’ve removed the rant. Please stay on topic when posting at RPG.se, and especially avoid ranting.
– SevenSidedDie♦
9 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
-5
down vote
up vote
-5
down vote
Improved Criticals Sage Advice
Any critical is treated as a normal hit in regards to the damage dice.
edited 9 hours ago
SevenSidedDie♦
200k26637918
answered 11 hours ago
XAQT78
419110
Improved Criticals Sage Advice
Any critical is treated as a normal hit in regards to the damage dice.
edited 9 hours ago
SevenSidedDie♦
200k26637918
answered 11 hours ago
XAQT78
419110
edited 9 hours ago
SevenSidedDie♦
200k26637918
edited 9 hours ago
SevenSidedDie♦
200k26637918
edited 9 hours ago
SevenSidedDie♦
200k26637918
200k26637918
answered 11 hours ago
XAQT78
419110
answered 11 hours ago
XAQT78
419110
answered 11 hours ago
XAQT78
419110
419110
3
This answer doesn't really add anything compared to Adam's, which was posted earlier. It's mostly just a rant.
– Theik
9 hours ago
1
I’ve removed the rant. Please stay on topic when posting at RPG.se, and especially avoid ranting.
– SevenSidedDie♦
9 hours ago
add a comment |Â
3
This answer doesn't really add anything compared to Adam's, which was posted earlier. It's mostly just a rant.
– Theik
9 hours ago
1
I’ve removed the rant. Please stay on topic when posting at RPG.se, and especially avoid ranting.
– SevenSidedDie♦
9 hours ago
3
3
This answer doesn't really add anything compared to Adam's, which was posted earlier. It's mostly just a rant.
– Theik
9 hours ago
This answer doesn't really add anything compared to Adam's, which was posted earlier. It's mostly just a rant.
– Theik
9 hours ago
1
1
I’ve removed the rant. Please stay on topic when posting at RPG.se, and especially avoid ranting.
– SevenSidedDie♦
9 hours ago
I’ve removed the rant. Please stay on topic when posting at RPG.se, and especially avoid ranting.
– SevenSidedDie♦
9 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
-5
down vote
Indeterminate, and it opens another can of worms...
There is some legitimate dispute on this one. The Basic Rules have the following passage:
Rolling 1 or 20. [...]If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. This is called a critical hit, which is explained later in this section.
Later on in the Damage Rolls section, it describes the damage effects of a critical hit. It all seems clear at this point - a natural 20 being automatic hit and a critical hit are the same thing.
However, when we look at the champion fighter's Improved Critical ability, we have:
Improved Critical. Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
"Rolling 1 or 20" indicates that the die roll automatically hits, and calls it a critical hit. Champion fighter also calls a 19 or 20 a critical hit. Does that mean a 19 is also an automatic hit just like a 20?
Options
As much as I am loathe to say it, this is a DM discretion call. While there are some designer-intent posts on Twitter, they have not made it into an officially published errata. Considering the number of times those seemingly official posts have made a call then reverted it, they should all be considered suspect.
There are two logically internally, consistent choices:
If the DM wishes to consider an "automatic hit" and the dice-doubling "critical hit" to be separate things.- On a 20, adamantine stops the damage ("critical hit"), but the "automatic hit" carries through because a 20 always hits.
- Champion fighters automatically hit on 20s, but not 19s (a 19 is a "critical hit" but not an "automatic hit".).
If the DM wishes to consider "automatic hit" and the dice-doubling "critical hit" as synonymous:- Adamantine stops the dice-doubling from the "critical hit" and, because they're the same thing, also stops the "automatic hit" (compare the total attack roll to the AC).
- Champion fighters count 19s (and eventually 18s) as "critical hits", which means they are also "automatic hits".
To put it differently... any two of them (the combat rules, adamantine armor, and the champion fighter), isolated from the third, doesn't leave much room for doubt. It is the interaction of all three passages that creates ambiguity.
I've specifically avoided sharing my opinion, and presented two possible interpretations. The published rules don't provide sufficient clarity or weight to make an iron-clad determination either way.
answered 12 hours ago
T.J.L.
26.3k381141
@XAQT78 In your opinion, sure. I've specifically avoided sharing my opinion, and instead presented the two possible and logically-consistent interpretations. My point is that the published rules don't provide sufficient clarity to make an iron-clad determination either way.
– T.J.L.
11 hours ago
Do the downvoters really think the rules as written are that clear?
– T.J.L.
11 hours ago
4
I do think it's clear that a natural 20 is an automatic hit. Related on Does a critical hit from an expanded crit range always hit regardless of AC?
– NautArch
11 hours ago
3
I don't think option 2 is logically consistent. The item description says the critical hit turns into a regular hit. It says it right in the description that the attack is a confirmed hit and says nothing about having to recalculate whether the attack is a hit or not.
– Adam
10 hours ago
1
@T.J.L. I'm using the term to describe the state where something made an attack roll, and it's been established that based on the reading of the rules, the attack has scored a hit. The term "confirmed" is just a little something extra in there for emphasis. You can remove it from the sentence and it doesn't strictly change anything about my point: An attack that is labeled a "hit" cannot by the very definition of the term "hit" be in a state where you don't know if the attack has scored a hit or not.
– Adam
7 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
-5
down vote
Indeterminate, and it opens another can of worms...
There is some legitimate dispute on this one. The Basic Rules have the following passage:
Rolling 1 or 20. [...]If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. This is called a critical hit, which is explained later in this section.
Later on in the Damage Rolls section, it describes the damage effects of a critical hit. It all seems clear at this point - a natural 20 being automatic hit and a critical hit are the same thing.
However, when we look at the champion fighter's Improved Critical ability, we have:
Improved Critical. Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
"Rolling 1 or 20" indicates that the die roll automatically hits, and calls it a critical hit. Champion fighter also calls a 19 or 20 a critical hit. Does that mean a 19 is also an automatic hit just like a 20?
Options
As much as I am loathe to say it, this is a DM discretion call. While there are some designer-intent posts on Twitter, they have not made it into an officially published errata. Considering the number of times those seemingly official posts have made a call then reverted it, they should all be considered suspect.
There are two logically internally, consistent choices:
If the DM wishes to consider an "automatic hit" and the dice-doubling "critical hit" to be separate things.- On a 20, adamantine stops the damage ("critical hit"), but the "automatic hit" carries through because a 20 always hits.
- Champion fighters automatically hit on 20s, but not 19s (a 19 is a "critical hit" but not an "automatic hit".).
If the DM wishes to consider "automatic hit" and the dice-doubling "critical hit" as synonymous:- Adamantine stops the dice-doubling from the "critical hit" and, because they're the same thing, also stops the "automatic hit" (compare the total attack roll to the AC).
- Champion fighters count 19s (and eventually 18s) as "critical hits", which means they are also "automatic hits".
To put it differently... any two of them (the combat rules, adamantine armor, and the champion fighter), isolated from the third, doesn't leave much room for doubt. It is the interaction of all three passages that creates ambiguity.
I've specifically avoided sharing my opinion, and presented two possible interpretations. The published rules don't provide sufficient clarity or weight to make an iron-clad determination either way.
answered 12 hours ago
T.J.L.
26.3k381141
@XAQT78 In your opinion, sure. I've specifically avoided sharing my opinion, and instead presented the two possible and logically-consistent interpretations. My point is that the published rules don't provide sufficient clarity to make an iron-clad determination either way.
– T.J.L.
11 hours ago
Do the downvoters really think the rules as written are that clear?
– T.J.L.
11 hours ago
4
I do think it's clear that a natural 20 is an automatic hit. Related on Does a critical hit from an expanded crit range always hit regardless of AC?
– NautArch
11 hours ago
3
I don't think option 2 is logically consistent. The item description says the critical hit turns into a regular hit. It says it right in the description that the attack is a confirmed hit and says nothing about having to recalculate whether the attack is a hit or not.
– Adam
10 hours ago
1
@T.J.L. I'm using the term to describe the state where something made an attack roll, and it's been established that based on the reading of the rules, the attack has scored a hit. The term "confirmed" is just a little something extra in there for emphasis. You can remove it from the sentence and it doesn't strictly change anything about my point: An attack that is labeled a "hit" cannot by the very definition of the term "hit" be in a state where you don't know if the attack has scored a hit or not.
– Adam
7 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
-5
down vote
up vote
-5
down vote
Indeterminate, and it opens another can of worms...
There is some legitimate dispute on this one. The Basic Rules have the following passage:
Rolling 1 or 20. [...]If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. This is called a critical hit, which is explained later in this section.
Later on in the Damage Rolls section, it describes the damage effects of a critical hit. It all seems clear at this point - a natural 20 being automatic hit and a critical hit are the same thing.
However, when we look at the champion fighter's Improved Critical ability, we have:
Improved Critical. Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
"Rolling 1 or 20" indicates that the die roll automatically hits, and calls it a critical hit. Champion fighter also calls a 19 or 20 a critical hit. Does that mean a 19 is also an automatic hit just like a 20?
Options
As much as I am loathe to say it, this is a DM discretion call. While there are some designer-intent posts on Twitter, they have not made it into an officially published errata. Considering the number of times those seemingly official posts have made a call then reverted it, they should all be considered suspect.
There are two logically internally, consistent choices:
If the DM wishes to consider an "automatic hit" and the dice-doubling "critical hit" to be separate things.- On a 20, adamantine stops the damage ("critical hit"), but the "automatic hit" carries through because a 20 always hits.
- Champion fighters automatically hit on 20s, but not 19s (a 19 is a "critical hit" but not an "automatic hit".).
If the DM wishes to consider "automatic hit" and the dice-doubling "critical hit" as synonymous:- Adamantine stops the dice-doubling from the "critical hit" and, because they're the same thing, also stops the "automatic hit" (compare the total attack roll to the AC).
- Champion fighters count 19s (and eventually 18s) as "critical hits", which means they are also "automatic hits".
To put it differently... any two of them (the combat rules, adamantine armor, and the champion fighter), isolated from the third, doesn't leave much room for doubt. It is the interaction of all three passages that creates ambiguity.
I've specifically avoided sharing my opinion, and presented two possible interpretations. The published rules don't provide sufficient clarity or weight to make an iron-clad determination either way.
answered 12 hours ago
T.J.L.
26.3k381141
Indeterminate, and it opens another can of worms...
There is some legitimate dispute on this one. The Basic Rules have the following passage:
Rolling 1 or 20. [...]If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. This is called a critical hit, which is explained later in this section.
Later on in the Damage Rolls section, it describes the damage effects of a critical hit. It all seems clear at this point - a natural 20 being automatic hit and a critical hit are the same thing.
However, when we look at the champion fighter's Improved Critical ability, we have:
Improved Critical. Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
"Rolling 1 or 20" indicates that the die roll automatically hits, and calls it a critical hit. Champion fighter also calls a 19 or 20 a critical hit. Does that mean a 19 is also an automatic hit just like a 20?
Options
As much as I am loathe to say it, this is a DM discretion call. While there are some designer-intent posts on Twitter, they have not made it into an officially published errata. Considering the number of times those seemingly official posts have made a call then reverted it, they should all be considered suspect.
There are two logically internally, consistent choices:
If the DM wishes to consider an "automatic hit" and the dice-doubling "critical hit" to be separate things.- On a 20, adamantine stops the damage ("critical hit"), but the "automatic hit" carries through because a 20 always hits.
- Champion fighters automatically hit on 20s, but not 19s (a 19 is a "critical hit" but not an "automatic hit".).
If the DM wishes to consider "automatic hit" and the dice-doubling "critical hit" as synonymous:- Adamantine stops the dice-doubling from the "critical hit" and, because they're the same thing, also stops the "automatic hit" (compare the total attack roll to the AC).
- Champion fighters count 19s (and eventually 18s) as "critical hits", which means they are also "automatic hits".
To put it differently... any two of them (the combat rules, adamantine armor, and the champion fighter), isolated from the third, doesn't leave much room for doubt. It is the interaction of all three passages that creates ambiguity.
I've specifically avoided sharing my opinion, and presented two possible interpretations. The published rules don't provide sufficient clarity or weight to make an iron-clad determination either way.
answered 12 hours ago
T.J.L.
26.3k381141
edited 7 hours ago
answered 12 hours ago
T.J.L.
26.3k381141
answered 12 hours ago
T.J.L.
26.3k381141
answered 12 hours ago
T.J.L.
26.3k381141
26.3k381141
@XAQT78 In your opinion, sure. I've specifically avoided sharing my opinion, and instead presented the two possible and logically-consistent interpretations. My point is that the published rules don't provide sufficient clarity to make an iron-clad determination either way.
– T.J.L.
11 hours ago
Do the downvoters really think the rules as written are that clear?
– T.J.L.
11 hours ago
4
I do think it's clear that a natural 20 is an automatic hit. Related on Does a critical hit from an expanded crit range always hit regardless of AC?
– NautArch
11 hours ago
3
I don't think option 2 is logically consistent. The item description says the critical hit turns into a regular hit. It says it right in the description that the attack is a confirmed hit and says nothing about having to recalculate whether the attack is a hit or not.
– Adam
10 hours ago
1
@T.J.L. I'm using the term to describe the state where something made an attack roll, and it's been established that based on the reading of the rules, the attack has scored a hit. The term "confirmed" is just a little something extra in there for emphasis. You can remove it from the sentence and it doesn't strictly change anything about my point: An attack that is labeled a "hit" cannot by the very definition of the term "hit" be in a state where you don't know if the attack has scored a hit or not.
– Adam
7 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
@XAQT78 In your opinion, sure. I've specifically avoided sharing my opinion, and instead presented the two possible and logically-consistent interpretations. My point is that the published rules don't provide sufficient clarity to make an iron-clad determination either way.
– T.J.L.
11 hours ago
Do the downvoters really think the rules as written are that clear?
– T.J.L.
11 hours ago
4
I do think it's clear that a natural 20 is an automatic hit. Related on Does a critical hit from an expanded crit range always hit regardless of AC?
– NautArch
11 hours ago
3
I don't think option 2 is logically consistent. The item description says the critical hit turns into a regular hit. It says it right in the description that the attack is a confirmed hit and says nothing about having to recalculate whether the attack is a hit or not.
– Adam
10 hours ago
1
@T.J.L. I'm using the term to describe the state where something made an attack roll, and it's been established that based on the reading of the rules, the attack has scored a hit. The term "confirmed" is just a little something extra in there for emphasis. You can remove it from the sentence and it doesn't strictly change anything about my point: An attack that is labeled a "hit" cannot by the very definition of the term "hit" be in a state where you don't know if the attack has scored a hit or not.
– Adam
7 hours ago
@XAQT78 In your opinion, sure. I've specifically avoided sharing my opinion, and instead presented the two possible and logically-consistent interpretations. My point is that the published rules don't provide sufficient clarity to make an iron-clad determination either way.
– T.J.L.
11 hours ago
@XAQT78 In your opinion, sure. I've specifically avoided sharing my opinion, and instead presented the two possible and logically-consistent interpretations. My point is that the published rules don't provide sufficient clarity to make an iron-clad determination either way.
– T.J.L.
11 hours ago
Do the downvoters really think the rules as written are that clear?
– T.J.L.
11 hours ago
Do the downvoters really think the rules as written are that clear?
– T.J.L.
11 hours ago
4
4
I do think it's clear that a natural 20 is an automatic hit. Related on Does a critical hit from an expanded crit range always hit regardless of AC?
– NautArch
11 hours ago
I do think it's clear that a natural 20 is an automatic hit. Related on Does a critical hit from an expanded crit range always hit regardless of AC?
– NautArch
11 hours ago
3
3
I don't think option 2 is logically consistent. The item description says the critical hit turns into a regular hit. It says it right in the description that the attack is a confirmed hit and says nothing about having to recalculate whether the attack is a hit or not.
– Adam
10 hours ago
I don't think option 2 is logically consistent. The item description says the critical hit turns into a regular hit. It says it right in the description that the attack is a confirmed hit and says nothing about having to recalculate whether the attack is a hit or not.
– Adam
10 hours ago
1
1
@T.J.L. I'm using the term to describe the state where something made an attack roll, and it's been established that based on the reading of the rules, the attack has scored a hit. The term "confirmed" is just a little something extra in there for emphasis. You can remove it from the sentence and it doesn't strictly change anything about my point: An attack that is labeled a "hit" cannot by the very definition of the term "hit" be in a state where you don't know if the attack has scored a hit or not.
– Adam
7 hours ago
@T.J.L. I'm using the term to describe the state where something made an attack roll, and it's been established that based on the reading of the rules, the attack has scored a hit. The term "confirmed" is just a little something extra in there for emphasis. You can remove it from the sentence and it doesn't strictly change anything about my point: An attack that is labeled a "hit" cannot by the very definition of the term "hit" be in a state where you don't know if the attack has scored a hit or not.
– Adam
7 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
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