Iyfjky

Question

I plan to make this a series of questions to avoid being overly broad. Each question will address a particular fantasy species ("race" in RPG terms).

The traits will be based on the content included in this question, though the traits can also be found in this question, which lists all of the races: Medieval politics with fantasy races

World Concept: Similar to the Percy Jackson or Harry Potter series I am envisioning a world within a world.

Modern day setting

Fantasy races live in secret

An as yet undefined force/magic impairs humans when they interact with magical races/activity

Other questions in the Series:

Finding real world historic examples of cultures/organizations/tribes to represent Elves
- Phonecians will be playing the role of elves in this world

My request: I am looking for peoples/cultures/tribes from the real world that no longer exist. The idea here is that x, y, z tribes that based on real world history ceased to functionally exist were actually comprised of a fantasy race passing as human. For example: The Huns of this world were actually dwarves of the magical world.

In the past, fantasy races openly existed alongside humans

Many conflicts we study from the past were actually conflicts between fantasy races/humans

At some point magic was used to divide the human/fantasy worlds

For this question I am specifically interested in Orcs. Your answer should provide a historic group or groups that best fit the constraints of the question and provide supporting evidence as to why it is a good answer.

Constraints:

The real world tribe/culture (RWTC) needs to be from Europe/Asia/Africa

The RWTC should have ceased to exist between 1500 BCE and 1500 CE. They can have been destroyed in battle or absorbed into a larger culture or option 3 (whatever explanation is relevant.)

Should meet, as well as possible, the traits defined below (obviously some are magical and aren't possible in humans; I'm looking for compatibility, not exact matches):

Orcs:

Orcs are big and value strength, they share a lifespan in common to humans

Their society is tribal, with a war chief being chosen based on combat and feats of strength.

Most tribes are nomadic but some are not

This practice leads the orcs into conflict with other races as young orcs (both male and female) must prove themselves in battle to gain honor, find a mate and for a chance at power.

Orcs as a race virtually never band together and regularly fight with neighboring tribes be they orc or not.

Orcs tend to distrust gnomes and dwarves whose small stature leads to a belief that they are sneaky and underhanded (which is sometimes
true)

Orcs respect humans and elves mainly due to the wars they have fought with the two races

Few orcs are capable of using magic, those that do become shaman and are revered...until they are sacrificed to the gods at age 30.-

Additional new trait for the Orcs:

Orcs live by a strict code of honor. The code addresses battle; how to deal with enemies, treatment of the dead, respect for honorable opponents etc and ritual combat which mainly deals with identifying a chieftain.

Gender roles among orcs were never traditionally defined. Male and female orcs alike are expected to gain honor in combat and may gain power/leadership.

Needs to have lived in an area within or bordering the Mediterranean since conflict with the elves will have been a part of the history. The RWTC in question does NOT need to have existed side by side with the Phoenicians.

Cooo... the ice is really thin! Who's going in the deep frigid water first? — 1 hour ago
@elemtilas if you'd like to discuss please join me in Worldbuilding Chat. I'd like to better understand your perspective. — 1 hour ago

Green 42.5k7107223 · Answer 1 · 2018-10-15 19:44:48Z

Normans

Orcs are big and value strength, they share a lifespan in common to humans

The simplest interpretation of this means larger physical specimens than the surrounding/competing peoples. Perhaps better diet is the cause. If the orc's diet isn't actually better then superior fighting skill would equate to 'big and value strength'.

This practice leads the orcs into conflict with other races as young orcs (both male and female) must prove themselves in battle to gain honor, find a mate and for a chance at power. Their society is tribal, with a war chief being chosen based on combat and feats of strength.

The Normans had a very strong practice of raiding. This practice provides plenty of opportunity for combat, treasure, war stories and scars. Further, scarce females, or high infant mortality rates, or slow reproduction cycles would fuel this honor/single combat mentality. A strong honor culture for males and females would be very handy social sorting mechanism.

Interestingly, Norman/Viking women appeared to have more rights and privileges than their contemporaries. Definitely, the skjaldmÃƒÂ¦r or shield maidens were a thing. The duty of carrying valiant warriors to Valhalla was entrusted to supernatural women, not supernatural men. I think this clearly indicates the high standing that women had in Norman culture.

Most tribes are nomadic but some are not

Plenty of Normans stayed in Scandanavia but many conquered then moved to northern France, England, Spain, Germany, Russia, Italy and many others. The attached map shows the extent of their spread. Some raiding groups stayed, some groups left after the raid.
Map of Norman Conquests

(source)
In addition, the Norman conquest of England showed how good they were at building defensible positions then keeping them. Still standing Norman forts can be found all over England.

Orcs as a race virtually never band together and regularly fight with neighboring tribes be they orc or not.

Great geographic dispersion makes this easy for the Normans. Many tribes settled one area then fended off other Norman raids that came later. In 911, Rollo signed an agreement to defend Normandy from further Norman/Viking raids.

Orcs tend to distrust gnomes and dwarves whose small stature leads to a belief that they are sneaky and underhanded (which is sometimes true)

Cultures based on single combat or combat honor tend to look down on anyone who tries to be sneaky because being sneaky doesn't require you to be big and strong, just smart. However, someone who is sneaky and strong is always respected.

Orcs respect humans and elves mainly due to the wars they have fought with the two races.

Evidence of many treaties and agreements with constituent kingdoms and empires indicate respect by the Normans of other power blocs and the reciprocal respect of the orcs by those same blocs.

Few orcs are capable of using magic, those that do become shaman and are revered...until they are sacrificed to the gods at age 30.

Limited magic ability would translate to relatively low tech levels. This one doesn't fit as well for the Normans since they had tech and or culture that allowed them to outperform surrounding groups. Perhaps the high performance of the Normans can be ascribed to cultural factors instead of outright technological prowess.

score 3 · Answer 2 · 2018-10-15 20:07:10Z

Tolkien's Orcs were based on the Mongol conquests.

So, to keep his tradition, I'd choose the Scythians (9th century BC-4th century AD)

enter image description here

Scythian women trained with the bow and they fought along men, to the point they are one of the sources for the legends of the Amazons. Their women might have even worn trousers while riding according to some burial sites.

They had a tribal society. They allied against common enemies, but they also fought among themselves, specially the two big Saka tribes.

It is suspected that (as most of the peoples around them) they practiced some kind of human sacrifice.

According to Wikipedia:

A warlike people, the Scythians were particularly known for their
equestrian skills, and their early use of composite bows shot from
horseback... The Scythians were notoriously aggressive warriors. They
"fought to live and lived to fight" and "drank the blood of their
enemies and used the scalps as napkins".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians

The Alans, a tribe related to the Scythians, were described as tall and strong.

Bad point: They didn't live around the Mediterranean, but very near (in the Pontic area).

Bonus point: they shared a timeline with the Phoenicians, although they didn't fight.

Thanks for pointing out where they do and do not overlap with the requirements, I'm willing to bend history a bit, especially if it happened further in the past and is less "sure" — 22 mins ago
@James Yes, the Scythians from the 7th-5th centuries BC; the ones that rolled over the powerful Assyrian Empire as if it weren't there; are quite a mistery. They are known only from the remains in tombs and a few descriptions by Greek historians. — 8 mins ago

score 1 · Answer 3 · 2018-10-15 20:11:54Z

The Celtic/Gallic tribes fit pretty much all of your Orc needs.

Bust of Gallic chieftain

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Big and value strength: See Brennus above. Just look at that mustache.

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Their society is tribal, with a war chief: The general social structure was tribal, led by a council of elders, a chief/king, druids, or some combination thereof

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Some are nomadic but some are not: Tribal migrations/invasions took tribes as far east as the Balkans

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Conflict with other groups: The history section of the Gallic Wikipedia page summarizes the following: their early invasion of Rome, their repeated invasions of the Balkans, their invasion of the area of Modern-day Turkey, and their various wars with Rome.

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Virtually never band together: There were a lot of tribes and small tribal confederations, with the occasional large confederation growing under strong leaders when the tribes are threatened.

- Tend to distrust small outsiders: Dwarves come straight from Germanic mythology, and unfortunately had a pretty high opinion of them.

- Respect those who they fight in wars: One Gallic king reportedly coined the phrase "woe to the vanquished", i.e. "you lost and are completely at my mercy". Since they didn't respect their foes once they were beaten, they may or may not have had respect before that.

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Magic is rare, but revered: Druids represented the highest social class of many Celtic tribes.

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Strict code of honor: In Julius Caesar's firsthand accounts of the Gallic Wars, he claims that what sets the Gallic tribes apart from the Romans is their warring nature and the idea of true valor within that warring nature.

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Gender roles not strictly defined: Again in Julius Caesar's commentaries, he claims that women bathed alongside men and they celebrate men who abstain from sex, so I'm sure there are plenty of other non-traditional cultural roles.

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Lived in an area within or bordering the Mediterranean: As stated above, at various points in time they inhabited most areas as far west as France and as far East as Greece.

Green 42.5k7107223 · Answer 4 · 2018-10-15 19:44:48Z

Normans

Orcs are big and value strength, they share a lifespan in common to humans

The simplest interpretation of this means larger physical specimens than the surrounding/competing peoples. Perhaps better diet is the cause. If the orc's diet isn't actually better then superior fighting skill would equate to 'big and value strength'.

This practice leads the orcs into conflict with other races as young orcs (both male and female) must prove themselves in battle to gain honor, find a mate and for a chance at power. Their society is tribal, with a war chief being chosen based on combat and feats of strength.

The Normans had a very strong practice of raiding. This practice provides plenty of opportunity for combat, treasure, war stories and scars. Further, scarce females, or high infant mortality rates, or slow reproduction cycles would fuel this honor/single combat mentality. A strong honor culture for males and females would be very handy social sorting mechanism.

Interestingly, Norman/Viking women appeared to have more rights and privileges than their contemporaries. Definitely, the skjaldmÃƒÂ¦r or shield maidens were a thing. The duty of carrying valiant warriors to Valhalla was entrusted to supernatural women, not supernatural men. I think this clearly indicates the high standing that women had in Norman culture.

Most tribes are nomadic but some are not

Plenty of Normans stayed in Scandanavia but many conquered then moved to northern France, England, Spain, Germany, Russia, Italy and many others. The attached map shows the extent of their spread. Some raiding groups stayed, some groups left after the raid.
Map of Norman Conquests

(source)
In addition, the Norman conquest of England showed how good they were at building defensible positions then keeping them. Still standing Norman forts can be found all over England.

Orcs as a race virtually never band together and regularly fight with neighboring tribes be they orc or not.

Great geographic dispersion makes this easy for the Normans. Many tribes settled one area then fended off other Norman raids that came later. In 911, Rollo signed an agreement to defend Normandy from further Norman/Viking raids.

Orcs tend to distrust gnomes and dwarves whose small stature leads to a belief that they are sneaky and underhanded (which is sometimes true)

Cultures based on single combat or combat honor tend to look down on anyone who tries to be sneaky because being sneaky doesn't require you to be big and strong, just smart. However, someone who is sneaky and strong is always respected.

Orcs respect humans and elves mainly due to the wars they have fought with the two races.

Evidence of many treaties and agreements with constituent kingdoms and empires indicate respect by the Normans of other power blocs and the reciprocal respect of the orcs by those same blocs.

Few orcs are capable of using magic, those that do become shaman and are revered...until they are sacrificed to the gods at age 30.

Limited magic ability would translate to relatively low tech levels. This one doesn't fit as well for the Normans since they had tech and or culture that allowed them to outperform surrounding groups. Perhaps the high performance of the Normans can be ascribed to cultural factors instead of outright technological prowess.

score 3 · Answer 5 · 2018-10-15 20:07:10Z

Tolkien's Orcs were based on the Mongol conquests.

So, to keep his tradition, I'd choose the Scythians (9th century BC-4th century AD)

enter image description here

Scythian women trained with the bow and they fought along men, to the point they are one of the sources for the legends of the Amazons. Their women might have even worn trousers while riding according to some burial sites.

They had a tribal society. They allied against common enemies, but they also fought among themselves, specially the two big Saka tribes.

It is suspected that (as most of the peoples around them) they practiced some kind of human sacrifice.

According to Wikipedia:

A warlike people, the Scythians were particularly known for their
equestrian skills, and their early use of composite bows shot from
horseback... The Scythians were notoriously aggressive warriors. They
"fought to live and lived to fight" and "drank the blood of their
enemies and used the scalps as napkins".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians

The Alans, a tribe related to the Scythians, were described as tall and strong.

Bad point: They didn't live around the Mediterranean, but very near (in the Pontic area).

Bonus point: they shared a timeline with the Phoenicians, although they didn't fight.

Thanks for pointing out where they do and do not overlap with the requirements, I'm willing to bend history a bit, especially if it happened further in the past and is less "sure" — 22 mins ago
@James Yes, the Scythians from the 7th-5th centuries BC; the ones that rolled over the powerful Assyrian Empire as if it weren't there; are quite a mistery. They are known only from the remains in tombs and a few descriptions by Greek historians. — 8 mins ago

score 1 · Answer 6 · 2018-10-15 20:11:54Z

The Celtic/Gallic tribes fit pretty much all of your Orc needs.

Bust of Gallic chieftain

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Big and value strength: See Brennus above. Just look at that mustache.

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Their society is tribal, with a war chief: The general social structure was tribal, led by a council of elders, a chief/king, druids, or some combination thereof

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Some are nomadic but some are not: Tribal migrations/invasions took tribes as far east as the Balkans

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Conflict with other groups: The history section of the Gallic Wikipedia page summarizes the following: their early invasion of Rome, their repeated invasions of the Balkans, their invasion of the area of Modern-day Turkey, and their various wars with Rome.

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Virtually never band together: There were a lot of tribes and small tribal confederations, with the occasional large confederation growing under strong leaders when the tribes are threatened.

- Tend to distrust small outsiders: Dwarves come straight from Germanic mythology, and unfortunately had a pretty high opinion of them.

- Respect those who they fight in wars: One Gallic king reportedly coined the phrase "woe to the vanquished", i.e. "you lost and are completely at my mercy". Since they didn't respect their foes once they were beaten, they may or may not have had respect before that.

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Magic is rare, but revered: Druids represented the highest social class of many Celtic tribes.

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Strict code of honor: In Julius Caesar's firsthand accounts of the Gallic Wars, he claims that what sets the Gallic tribes apart from the Romans is their warring nature and the idea of true valor within that warring nature.

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Gender roles not strictly defined: Again in Julius Caesar's commentaries, he claims that women bathed alongside men and they celebrate men who abstain from sex, so I'm sure there are plenty of other non-traditional cultural roles.

Ã¢ÂœÂ“ Lived in an area within or bordering the Mediterranean: As stated above, at various points in time they inhabited most areas as far west as France and as far East as Greece.

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