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Promoting controversial opinions in a work of fiction
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I'm writing a first person novel and main character has highly controversial views, many of which the majority of people would probably consider immoral. Would a character with controversial attitudes be a no-no for a reader? Or maybe a publisher?
Of course, it maybe possible that his attitudes instead will be received with interest or maybe even awe, but I'm not sure on this. In either way, I still think such a novel deserves a shot.
In summary, I'm afraid of a bad reception. I don't want to change the character much, he is like Zarathustra was for Nietzsche: A mouthpiece for my own beliefs and attitudes. What techniques could improve the likely reception, to make the novel and the main character more attractive? How can I prevent confirmation bias and other biases in the readers in such cases? What kind of structure should a writer use for this purpose?
technique characters novel structure
edited 17 mins ago
Chris Sunami
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rus9384
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up vote
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I'm writing a first person novel and main character has highly controversial views, many of which the majority of people would probably consider immoral. Would a character with controversial attitudes be a no-no for a reader? Or maybe a publisher?
Of course, it maybe possible that his attitudes instead will be received with interest or maybe even awe, but I'm not sure on this. In either way, I still think such a novel deserves a shot.
In summary, I'm afraid of a bad reception. I don't want to change the character much, he is like Zarathustra was for Nietzsche: A mouthpiece for my own beliefs and attitudes. What techniques could improve the likely reception, to make the novel and the main character more attractive? How can I prevent confirmation bias and other biases in the readers in such cases? What kind of structure should a writer use for this purpose?
technique characters novel structure
edited 17 mins ago
Chris Sunami
23.4k32888
asked 5 hours ago
rus9384
1062
New contributor
rus9384 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
related: writing.stackexchange.com/questions/33293/…
– Galastel
4 hours ago
@Galastel, I think it is different because these attitudes in some sense are mine too. And I understand many people do not agree. But the problem is how to show what I want to show without causing a feeling of rejection in people (using naive approach because people might think "He tells pedophiles are not immoral. Therefore he is immoral" while I mean that pedophiles are people too, who also deserve being treated as people, even of they have some impulses which could harm children, but not androids).
– rus9384
4 hours ago
Where is the conflict? Do you want this character to present a sort of manifesto that is challenged by a fictional world? Are you asking us to critic his (rather immature) ideas that all impulses are "good" and real-life victims are so unimportant they can be pasted over with happy simulacrum? A character without a world is exactly like this character's "controversial" opinions: unchallenged, immature, and unrealistic. What experience has he had in any of these situations? Create a story to challenge his ideas. People talk a lot of crazy bs, but who they really are is revealed under pressure.
– wetcircuit
3 hours ago
@wetcircuit There are several conflicts in the novel. The main conflict is probably protagonist's position versus social position. There are several antagonists, but the story does not end when they lose. The setting is fictional but the society is similar (not identical, no) to ours. I am not asking for critic if you read the question. Instead, I ask how to write the novel so it could not be easily discredited. Not all impulses are good, I never said it. I don't say, for example, that peeing in the face is good. But I say such desires occur when looking at the actions of those lawgivers.
– rus9384
3 hours ago
"Protagonist is right and everyone else is wrong, The End".... Expect the character to flatter like-minded people who believe they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. You have a "rant" not a character. We're not here to "fix" your manifesto, we're here to make suggestions for better writing. You claim the audience will be limited by their biases, but your alter-ego has no flaws or biases. You don't answer what experience he has to make him an authority or how his opinions are tested and challenged. There is no conflict here, just a strawman and self-confirming bias. Read Mein Kampf.
– wetcircuit
2 hours ago
 |Â
show 4 more comments
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
I'm writing a first person novel and main character has highly controversial views, many of which the majority of people would probably consider immoral. Would a character with controversial attitudes be a no-no for a reader? Or maybe a publisher?
Of course, it maybe possible that his attitudes instead will be received with interest or maybe even awe, but I'm not sure on this. In either way, I still think such a novel deserves a shot.
In summary, I'm afraid of a bad reception. I don't want to change the character much, he is like Zarathustra was for Nietzsche: A mouthpiece for my own beliefs and attitudes. What techniques could improve the likely reception, to make the novel and the main character more attractive? How can I prevent confirmation bias and other biases in the readers in such cases? What kind of structure should a writer use for this purpose?
technique characters novel structure
edited 17 mins ago
Chris Sunami
23.4k32888
asked 5 hours ago
rus9384
1062
New contributor
rus9384 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
I'm writing a first person novel and main character has highly controversial views, many of which the majority of people would probably consider immoral. Would a character with controversial attitudes be a no-no for a reader? Or maybe a publisher?
Of course, it maybe possible that his attitudes instead will be received with interest or maybe even awe, but I'm not sure on this. In either way, I still think such a novel deserves a shot.
In summary, I'm afraid of a bad reception. I don't want to change the character much, he is like Zarathustra was for Nietzsche: A mouthpiece for my own beliefs and attitudes. What techniques could improve the likely reception, to make the novel and the main character more attractive? How can I prevent confirmation bias and other biases in the readers in such cases? What kind of structure should a writer use for this purpose?
technique characters novel structure
technique characters novel structure
edited 17 mins ago
Chris Sunami
23.4k32888
asked 5 hours ago
rus9384
1062
New contributor
rus9384 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 17 mins ago
Chris Sunami
23.4k32888
asked 5 hours ago
rus9384
1062
New contributor
rus9384 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 17 mins ago
Chris Sunami
23.4k32888
edited 17 mins ago
Chris Sunami
23.4k32888
edited 17 mins ago
Chris Sunami
23.4k32888
23.4k32888
asked 5 hours ago
rus9384
1062
New contributor
rus9384 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 5 hours ago
rus9384
1062
asked 5 hours ago
rus9384
1062
1062
New contributor
rus9384 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
rus9384 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
rus9384 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
related: writing.stackexchange.com/questions/33293/…
– Galastel
4 hours ago
@Galastel, I think it is different because these attitudes in some sense are mine too. And I understand many people do not agree. But the problem is how to show what I want to show without causing a feeling of rejection in people (using naive approach because people might think "He tells pedophiles are not immoral. Therefore he is immoral" while I mean that pedophiles are people too, who also deserve being treated as people, even of they have some impulses which could harm children, but not androids).
– rus9384
4 hours ago
Where is the conflict? Do you want this character to present a sort of manifesto that is challenged by a fictional world? Are you asking us to critic his (rather immature) ideas that all impulses are "good" and real-life victims are so unimportant they can be pasted over with happy simulacrum? A character without a world is exactly like this character's "controversial" opinions: unchallenged, immature, and unrealistic. What experience has he had in any of these situations? Create a story to challenge his ideas. People talk a lot of crazy bs, but who they really are is revealed under pressure.
– wetcircuit
3 hours ago
@wetcircuit There are several conflicts in the novel. The main conflict is probably protagonist's position versus social position. There are several antagonists, but the story does not end when they lose. The setting is fictional but the society is similar (not identical, no) to ours. I am not asking for critic if you read the question. Instead, I ask how to write the novel so it could not be easily discredited. Not all impulses are good, I never said it. I don't say, for example, that peeing in the face is good. But I say such desires occur when looking at the actions of those lawgivers.
– rus9384
3 hours ago
"Protagonist is right and everyone else is wrong, The End".... Expect the character to flatter like-minded people who believe they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. You have a "rant" not a character. We're not here to "fix" your manifesto, we're here to make suggestions for better writing. You claim the audience will be limited by their biases, but your alter-ego has no flaws or biases. You don't answer what experience he has to make him an authority or how his opinions are tested and challenged. There is no conflict here, just a strawman and self-confirming bias. Read Mein Kampf.
– wetcircuit
2 hours ago
 |Â
show 4 more comments
related: writing.stackexchange.com/questions/33293/…
– Galastel
4 hours ago
@Galastel, I think it is different because these attitudes in some sense are mine too. And I understand many people do not agree. But the problem is how to show what I want to show without causing a feeling of rejection in people (using naive approach because people might think "He tells pedophiles are not immoral. Therefore he is immoral" while I mean that pedophiles are people too, who also deserve being treated as people, even of they have some impulses which could harm children, but not androids).
– rus9384
4 hours ago
Where is the conflict? Do you want this character to present a sort of manifesto that is challenged by a fictional world? Are you asking us to critic his (rather immature) ideas that all impulses are "good" and real-life victims are so unimportant they can be pasted over with happy simulacrum? A character without a world is exactly like this character's "controversial" opinions: unchallenged, immature, and unrealistic. What experience has he had in any of these situations? Create a story to challenge his ideas. People talk a lot of crazy bs, but who they really are is revealed under pressure.
– wetcircuit
3 hours ago
@wetcircuit There are several conflicts in the novel. The main conflict is probably protagonist's position versus social position. There are several antagonists, but the story does not end when they lose. The setting is fictional but the society is similar (not identical, no) to ours. I am not asking for critic if you read the question. Instead, I ask how to write the novel so it could not be easily discredited. Not all impulses are good, I never said it. I don't say, for example, that peeing in the face is good. But I say such desires occur when looking at the actions of those lawgivers.
– rus9384
3 hours ago
"Protagonist is right and everyone else is wrong, The End".... Expect the character to flatter like-minded people who believe they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. You have a "rant" not a character. We're not here to "fix" your manifesto, we're here to make suggestions for better writing. You claim the audience will be limited by their biases, but your alter-ego has no flaws or biases. You don't answer what experience he has to make him an authority or how his opinions are tested and challenged. There is no conflict here, just a strawman and self-confirming bias. Read Mein Kampf.
– wetcircuit
2 hours ago
related: writing.stackexchange.com/questions/33293/…
– Galastel
4 hours ago
related: writing.stackexchange.com/questions/33293/…
– Galastel
4 hours ago
@Galastel, I think it is different because these attitudes in some sense are mine too. And I understand many people do not agree. But the problem is how to show what I want to show without causing a feeling of rejection in people (using naive approach because people might think "He tells pedophiles are not immoral. Therefore he is immoral" while I mean that pedophiles are people too, who also deserve being treated as people, even of they have some impulses which could harm children, but not androids).
– rus9384
4 hours ago
@Galastel, I think it is different because these attitudes in some sense are mine too. And I understand many people do not agree. But the problem is how to show what I want to show without causing a feeling of rejection in people (using naive approach because people might think "He tells pedophiles are not immoral. Therefore he is immoral" while I mean that pedophiles are people too, who also deserve being treated as people, even of they have some impulses which could harm children, but not androids).
– rus9384
4 hours ago
Where is the conflict? Do you want this character to present a sort of manifesto that is challenged by a fictional world? Are you asking us to critic his (rather immature) ideas that all impulses are "good" and real-life victims are so unimportant they can be pasted over with happy simulacrum? A character without a world is exactly like this character's "controversial" opinions: unchallenged, immature, and unrealistic. What experience has he had in any of these situations? Create a story to challenge his ideas. People talk a lot of crazy bs, but who they really are is revealed under pressure.
– wetcircuit
3 hours ago
Where is the conflict? Do you want this character to present a sort of manifesto that is challenged by a fictional world? Are you asking us to critic his (rather immature) ideas that all impulses are "good" and real-life victims are so unimportant they can be pasted over with happy simulacrum? A character without a world is exactly like this character's "controversial" opinions: unchallenged, immature, and unrealistic. What experience has he had in any of these situations? Create a story to challenge his ideas. People talk a lot of crazy bs, but who they really are is revealed under pressure.
– wetcircuit
3 hours ago
@wetcircuit There are several conflicts in the novel. The main conflict is probably protagonist's position versus social position. There are several antagonists, but the story does not end when they lose. The setting is fictional but the society is similar (not identical, no) to ours. I am not asking for critic if you read the question. Instead, I ask how to write the novel so it could not be easily discredited. Not all impulses are good, I never said it. I don't say, for example, that peeing in the face is good. But I say such desires occur when looking at the actions of those lawgivers.
– rus9384
3 hours ago
@wetcircuit There are several conflicts in the novel. The main conflict is probably protagonist's position versus social position. There are several antagonists, but the story does not end when they lose. The setting is fictional but the society is similar (not identical, no) to ours. I am not asking for critic if you read the question. Instead, I ask how to write the novel so it could not be easily discredited. Not all impulses are good, I never said it. I don't say, for example, that peeing in the face is good. But I say such desires occur when looking at the actions of those lawgivers.
– rus9384
3 hours ago
"Protagonist is right and everyone else is wrong, The End".... Expect the character to flatter like-minded people who believe they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. You have a "rant" not a character. We're not here to "fix" your manifesto, we're here to make suggestions for better writing. You claim the audience will be limited by their biases, but your alter-ego has no flaws or biases. You don't answer what experience he has to make him an authority or how his opinions are tested and challenged. There is no conflict here, just a strawman and self-confirming bias. Read Mein Kampf.
– wetcircuit
2 hours ago
"Protagonist is right and everyone else is wrong, The End".... Expect the character to flatter like-minded people who believe they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. You have a "rant" not a character. We're not here to "fix" your manifesto, we're here to make suggestions for better writing. You claim the audience will be limited by their biases, but your alter-ego has no flaws or biases. You don't answer what experience he has to make him an authority or how his opinions are tested and challenged. There is no conflict here, just a strawman and self-confirming bias. Read Mein Kampf.
– wetcircuit
2 hours ago
 |Â
show 4 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
5
down vote
Are you familiar with G.R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire? It used to have some characters whose moral compass was strict and noble. They had a tendency to die, and leave a huge mess around them - mess that cost more lives. On the other hand, more Machiavellian figures created order - killing a few now, so a lot more would get to live later. The whole series seems to argue that idealism is harmful, while morally grey actions are often the best thing for everyone involved, and for innocent bystanders.
Song of Ice and Fire is extremely popular, in part because of the controversial stance it takes. So you needn't be afraid that controversial ideas would turn readers or publishers away.
How do you write controversial ideas well? You write them with integrity, you present their internal logic, you show how and why they might be considered valid. You challenge the accepted order of things, the way Socrates did. You show where the standard order of things fails. You do not present either side as an exaggerated caricature of itself, a "straw-man". You show the pros and cons of each side of the argument, the consequences each worldview leads to. Using all those tools, you make the reader think. Readers (at least some readers) like being made to think.
answered 4 hours ago
Galastel
16.5k34396
Sorry for the short answer. Kinda in a rush. Will expand on it after Yom Kippur, if nobody else gives a fuller answer by then.
– Galastel
4 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
In some sense you are talking about an anti-hero; a hero that has qualities or attitudes the audience may think are bad, but put up with because the guy is intent on accomplishing something else that is an obvious good.
This is the key to making your MC acceptable instead of alienating: Despite their weird belief system, their mission in this story is to do something unambiguously good, either for humanity in general or one person in particular.
That is pretty much the whole trick. In the 1994 movie "The Professional", a brutal hitman kills all kinds of gangsters and (corrupt) cops, but we like him anyway, because he chooses to save and protect a 12 year old girl.
It is possible to have some attitudes and actions that are in fact IMO irredeemable; in particular torture, rape, and murder of innocents for the fun of it.
But I will grant the imagination of others may exceed mine, if it can be done, the negatives of the MC must be outweighed by some positive thing they are doing in this story, something nearly all readers will agree redeems them.
answered 2 hours ago
Amadeus
38.9k245127
Definition of rape is so subjective. I agree with you if under rape you include physical force application or threat of its application. And serial killers also can be moral, some of them voluntarily turned themselves in which probably means they do not have control over selves when they do it (killing). Would be great if they could be cured (in the sense of having better self control), not if they would have been seen evil in all respects. But I escape this category as the protagonist doesn't have any fun of killing innocents.
– rus9384
2 hours ago
1
"Definition of rape is subjective" LOLOLOLOL, Oh dude.
– wetcircuit
2 hours ago
1
Of course it COULD NOT BE that you are the one with your own definition. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape Bro, your "ideas" are not controversial, just un-researched and transparently self-serving.
– wetcircuit
1 hour ago
1
@rus9384 Non-physical coercion is still rape; e.g. threatening their job, blackmailing them, demanding sex to prevent arrest or conviction, etc. The same goes for chemical coercion, being drugged into compliance. The same goes for exploitation of an impaired state. A woman getting very drunk has not in any way consented to sex, and even if she did consent in a severely impaired state, that is not considered a consent from a person in full control of their faculties. A women does not have to subjected to or threatened with physical harm to be raped.
– Amadeus
1 hour ago
1
I meant by that violent rape, like rape at knifepoint or gunpoint. Brutal rape. IMO those are irredeemable.
– Amadeus
59 mins ago
 |Â
show 7 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
5
down vote
Are you familiar with G.R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire? It used to have some characters whose moral compass was strict and noble. They had a tendency to die, and leave a huge mess around them - mess that cost more lives. On the other hand, more Machiavellian figures created order - killing a few now, so a lot more would get to live later. The whole series seems to argue that idealism is harmful, while morally grey actions are often the best thing for everyone involved, and for innocent bystanders.
Song of Ice and Fire is extremely popular, in part because of the controversial stance it takes. So you needn't be afraid that controversial ideas would turn readers or publishers away.
How do you write controversial ideas well? You write them with integrity, you present their internal logic, you show how and why they might be considered valid. You challenge the accepted order of things, the way Socrates did. You show where the standard order of things fails. You do not present either side as an exaggerated caricature of itself, a "straw-man". You show the pros and cons of each side of the argument, the consequences each worldview leads to. Using all those tools, you make the reader think. Readers (at least some readers) like being made to think.
answered 4 hours ago
Galastel
16.5k34396
Sorry for the short answer. Kinda in a rush. Will expand on it after Yom Kippur, if nobody else gives a fuller answer by then.
– Galastel
4 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
5
down vote
Are you familiar with G.R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire? It used to have some characters whose moral compass was strict and noble. They had a tendency to die, and leave a huge mess around them - mess that cost more lives. On the other hand, more Machiavellian figures created order - killing a few now, so a lot more would get to live later. The whole series seems to argue that idealism is harmful, while morally grey actions are often the best thing for everyone involved, and for innocent bystanders.
Song of Ice and Fire is extremely popular, in part because of the controversial stance it takes. So you needn't be afraid that controversial ideas would turn readers or publishers away.
How do you write controversial ideas well? You write them with integrity, you present their internal logic, you show how and why they might be considered valid. You challenge the accepted order of things, the way Socrates did. You show where the standard order of things fails. You do not present either side as an exaggerated caricature of itself, a "straw-man". You show the pros and cons of each side of the argument, the consequences each worldview leads to. Using all those tools, you make the reader think. Readers (at least some readers) like being made to think.
answered 4 hours ago
Galastel
16.5k34396
Sorry for the short answer. Kinda in a rush. Will expand on it after Yom Kippur, if nobody else gives a fuller answer by then.
– Galastel
4 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
5
down vote
up vote
5
down vote
Are you familiar with G.R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire? It used to have some characters whose moral compass was strict and noble. They had a tendency to die, and leave a huge mess around them - mess that cost more lives. On the other hand, more Machiavellian figures created order - killing a few now, so a lot more would get to live later. The whole series seems to argue that idealism is harmful, while morally grey actions are often the best thing for everyone involved, and for innocent bystanders.
Song of Ice and Fire is extremely popular, in part because of the controversial stance it takes. So you needn't be afraid that controversial ideas would turn readers or publishers away.
How do you write controversial ideas well? You write them with integrity, you present their internal logic, you show how and why they might be considered valid. You challenge the accepted order of things, the way Socrates did. You show where the standard order of things fails. You do not present either side as an exaggerated caricature of itself, a "straw-man". You show the pros and cons of each side of the argument, the consequences each worldview leads to. Using all those tools, you make the reader think. Readers (at least some readers) like being made to think.
answered 4 hours ago
Galastel
16.5k34396
Are you familiar with G.R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire? It used to have some characters whose moral compass was strict and noble. They had a tendency to die, and leave a huge mess around them - mess that cost more lives. On the other hand, more Machiavellian figures created order - killing a few now, so a lot more would get to live later. The whole series seems to argue that idealism is harmful, while morally grey actions are often the best thing for everyone involved, and for innocent bystanders.
Song of Ice and Fire is extremely popular, in part because of the controversial stance it takes. So you needn't be afraid that controversial ideas would turn readers or publishers away.
How do you write controversial ideas well? You write them with integrity, you present their internal logic, you show how and why they might be considered valid. You challenge the accepted order of things, the way Socrates did. You show where the standard order of things fails. You do not present either side as an exaggerated caricature of itself, a "straw-man". You show the pros and cons of each side of the argument, the consequences each worldview leads to. Using all those tools, you make the reader think. Readers (at least some readers) like being made to think.
answered 4 hours ago
Galastel
16.5k34396
answered 4 hours ago
Galastel
16.5k34396
answered 4 hours ago
Galastel
16.5k34396
answered 4 hours ago
Galastel
16.5k34396
16.5k34396
Sorry for the short answer. Kinda in a rush. Will expand on it after Yom Kippur, if nobody else gives a fuller answer by then.
– Galastel
4 hours ago
add a comment |Â
Sorry for the short answer. Kinda in a rush. Will expand on it after Yom Kippur, if nobody else gives a fuller answer by then.
– Galastel
4 hours ago
Sorry for the short answer. Kinda in a rush. Will expand on it after Yom Kippur, if nobody else gives a fuller answer by then.
– Galastel
4 hours ago
Sorry for the short answer. Kinda in a rush. Will expand on it after Yom Kippur, if nobody else gives a fuller answer by then.
– Galastel
4 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
In some sense you are talking about an anti-hero; a hero that has qualities or attitudes the audience may think are bad, but put up with because the guy is intent on accomplishing something else that is an obvious good.
This is the key to making your MC acceptable instead of alienating: Despite their weird belief system, their mission in this story is to do something unambiguously good, either for humanity in general or one person in particular.
That is pretty much the whole trick. In the 1994 movie "The Professional", a brutal hitman kills all kinds of gangsters and (corrupt) cops, but we like him anyway, because he chooses to save and protect a 12 year old girl.
It is possible to have some attitudes and actions that are in fact IMO irredeemable; in particular torture, rape, and murder of innocents for the fun of it.
But I will grant the imagination of others may exceed mine, if it can be done, the negatives of the MC must be outweighed by some positive thing they are doing in this story, something nearly all readers will agree redeems them.
answered 2 hours ago
Amadeus
38.9k245127
Definition of rape is so subjective. I agree with you if under rape you include physical force application or threat of its application. And serial killers also can be moral, some of them voluntarily turned themselves in which probably means they do not have control over selves when they do it (killing). Would be great if they could be cured (in the sense of having better self control), not if they would have been seen evil in all respects. But I escape this category as the protagonist doesn't have any fun of killing innocents.
– rus9384
2 hours ago
1
"Definition of rape is subjective" LOLOLOLOL, Oh dude.
– wetcircuit
2 hours ago
1
Of course it COULD NOT BE that you are the one with your own definition. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape Bro, your "ideas" are not controversial, just un-researched and transparently self-serving.
– wetcircuit
1 hour ago
1
@rus9384 Non-physical coercion is still rape; e.g. threatening their job, blackmailing them, demanding sex to prevent arrest or conviction, etc. The same goes for chemical coercion, being drugged into compliance. The same goes for exploitation of an impaired state. A woman getting very drunk has not in any way consented to sex, and even if she did consent in a severely impaired state, that is not considered a consent from a person in full control of their faculties. A women does not have to subjected to or threatened with physical harm to be raped.
– Amadeus
1 hour ago
1
I meant by that violent rape, like rape at knifepoint or gunpoint. Brutal rape. IMO those are irredeemable.
– Amadeus
59 mins ago
 |Â
show 7 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
In some sense you are talking about an anti-hero; a hero that has qualities or attitudes the audience may think are bad, but put up with because the guy is intent on accomplishing something else that is an obvious good.
This is the key to making your MC acceptable instead of alienating: Despite their weird belief system, their mission in this story is to do something unambiguously good, either for humanity in general or one person in particular.
That is pretty much the whole trick. In the 1994 movie "The Professional", a brutal hitman kills all kinds of gangsters and (corrupt) cops, but we like him anyway, because he chooses to save and protect a 12 year old girl.
It is possible to have some attitudes and actions that are in fact IMO irredeemable; in particular torture, rape, and murder of innocents for the fun of it.
But I will grant the imagination of others may exceed mine, if it can be done, the negatives of the MC must be outweighed by some positive thing they are doing in this story, something nearly all readers will agree redeems them.
answered 2 hours ago
Amadeus
38.9k245127
Definition of rape is so subjective. I agree with you if under rape you include physical force application or threat of its application. And serial killers also can be moral, some of them voluntarily turned themselves in which probably means they do not have control over selves when they do it (killing). Would be great if they could be cured (in the sense of having better self control), not if they would have been seen evil in all respects. But I escape this category as the protagonist doesn't have any fun of killing innocents.
– rus9384
2 hours ago
1
"Definition of rape is subjective" LOLOLOLOL, Oh dude.
– wetcircuit
2 hours ago
1
Of course it COULD NOT BE that you are the one with your own definition. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape Bro, your "ideas" are not controversial, just un-researched and transparently self-serving.
– wetcircuit
1 hour ago
1
@rus9384 Non-physical coercion is still rape; e.g. threatening their job, blackmailing them, demanding sex to prevent arrest or conviction, etc. The same goes for chemical coercion, being drugged into compliance. The same goes for exploitation of an impaired state. A woman getting very drunk has not in any way consented to sex, and even if she did consent in a severely impaired state, that is not considered a consent from a person in full control of their faculties. A women does not have to subjected to or threatened with physical harm to be raped.
– Amadeus
1 hour ago
1
I meant by that violent rape, like rape at knifepoint or gunpoint. Brutal rape. IMO those are irredeemable.
– Amadeus
59 mins ago
 |Â
show 7 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
In some sense you are talking about an anti-hero; a hero that has qualities or attitudes the audience may think are bad, but put up with because the guy is intent on accomplishing something else that is an obvious good.
This is the key to making your MC acceptable instead of alienating: Despite their weird belief system, their mission in this story is to do something unambiguously good, either for humanity in general or one person in particular.
That is pretty much the whole trick. In the 1994 movie "The Professional", a brutal hitman kills all kinds of gangsters and (corrupt) cops, but we like him anyway, because he chooses to save and protect a 12 year old girl.
It is possible to have some attitudes and actions that are in fact IMO irredeemable; in particular torture, rape, and murder of innocents for the fun of it.
But I will grant the imagination of others may exceed mine, if it can be done, the negatives of the MC must be outweighed by some positive thing they are doing in this story, something nearly all readers will agree redeems them.
answered 2 hours ago
Amadeus
38.9k245127
In some sense you are talking about an anti-hero; a hero that has qualities or attitudes the audience may think are bad, but put up with because the guy is intent on accomplishing something else that is an obvious good.
This is the key to making your MC acceptable instead of alienating: Despite their weird belief system, their mission in this story is to do something unambiguously good, either for humanity in general or one person in particular.
That is pretty much the whole trick. In the 1994 movie "The Professional", a brutal hitman kills all kinds of gangsters and (corrupt) cops, but we like him anyway, because he chooses to save and protect a 12 year old girl.
It is possible to have some attitudes and actions that are in fact IMO irredeemable; in particular torture, rape, and murder of innocents for the fun of it.
But I will grant the imagination of others may exceed mine, if it can be done, the negatives of the MC must be outweighed by some positive thing they are doing in this story, something nearly all readers will agree redeems them.
answered 2 hours ago
Amadeus
38.9k245127
answered 2 hours ago
Amadeus
38.9k245127
answered 2 hours ago
Amadeus
38.9k245127
answered 2 hours ago
Amadeus
38.9k245127
38.9k245127
Definition of rape is so subjective. I agree with you if under rape you include physical force application or threat of its application. And serial killers also can be moral, some of them voluntarily turned themselves in which probably means they do not have control over selves when they do it (killing). Would be great if they could be cured (in the sense of having better self control), not if they would have been seen evil in all respects. But I escape this category as the protagonist doesn't have any fun of killing innocents.
– rus9384
2 hours ago
1
"Definition of rape is subjective" LOLOLOLOL, Oh dude.
– wetcircuit
2 hours ago
1
Of course it COULD NOT BE that you are the one with your own definition. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape Bro, your "ideas" are not controversial, just un-researched and transparently self-serving.
– wetcircuit
1 hour ago
1
@rus9384 Non-physical coercion is still rape; e.g. threatening their job, blackmailing them, demanding sex to prevent arrest or conviction, etc. The same goes for chemical coercion, being drugged into compliance. The same goes for exploitation of an impaired state. A woman getting very drunk has not in any way consented to sex, and even if she did consent in a severely impaired state, that is not considered a consent from a person in full control of their faculties. A women does not have to subjected to or threatened with physical harm to be raped.
– Amadeus
1 hour ago
1
I meant by that violent rape, like rape at knifepoint or gunpoint. Brutal rape. IMO those are irredeemable.
– Amadeus
59 mins ago
 |Â
show 7 more comments
Definition of rape is so subjective. I agree with you if under rape you include physical force application or threat of its application. And serial killers also can be moral, some of them voluntarily turned themselves in which probably means they do not have control over selves when they do it (killing). Would be great if they could be cured (in the sense of having better self control), not if they would have been seen evil in all respects. But I escape this category as the protagonist doesn't have any fun of killing innocents.
– rus9384
2 hours ago
1
"Definition of rape is subjective" LOLOLOLOL, Oh dude.
– wetcircuit
2 hours ago
1
Of course it COULD NOT BE that you are the one with your own definition. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape Bro, your "ideas" are not controversial, just un-researched and transparently self-serving.
– wetcircuit
1 hour ago
1
@rus9384 Non-physical coercion is still rape; e.g. threatening their job, blackmailing them, demanding sex to prevent arrest or conviction, etc. The same goes for chemical coercion, being drugged into compliance. The same goes for exploitation of an impaired state. A woman getting very drunk has not in any way consented to sex, and even if she did consent in a severely impaired state, that is not considered a consent from a person in full control of their faculties. A women does not have to subjected to or threatened with physical harm to be raped.
– Amadeus
1 hour ago
1
I meant by that violent rape, like rape at knifepoint or gunpoint. Brutal rape. IMO those are irredeemable.
– Amadeus
59 mins ago
Definition of rape is so subjective. I agree with you if under rape you include physical force application or threat of its application. And serial killers also can be moral, some of them voluntarily turned themselves in which probably means they do not have control over selves when they do it (killing). Would be great if they could be cured (in the sense of having better self control), not if they would have been seen evil in all respects. But I escape this category as the protagonist doesn't have any fun of killing innocents.
– rus9384
2 hours ago
Definition of rape is so subjective. I agree with you if under rape you include physical force application or threat of its application. And serial killers also can be moral, some of them voluntarily turned themselves in which probably means they do not have control over selves when they do it (killing). Would be great if they could be cured (in the sense of having better self control), not if they would have been seen evil in all respects. But I escape this category as the protagonist doesn't have any fun of killing innocents.
– rus9384
2 hours ago
1
1
"Definition of rape is subjective" LOLOLOLOL, Oh dude.
– wetcircuit
2 hours ago
"Definition of rape is subjective" LOLOLOLOL, Oh dude.
– wetcircuit
2 hours ago
1
1
Of course it COULD NOT BE that you are the one with your own definition. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape Bro, your "ideas" are not controversial, just un-researched and transparently self-serving.
– wetcircuit
1 hour ago
Of course it COULD NOT BE that you are the one with your own definition. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape Bro, your "ideas" are not controversial, just un-researched and transparently self-serving.
– wetcircuit
1 hour ago
1
1
@rus9384 Non-physical coercion is still rape; e.g. threatening their job, blackmailing them, demanding sex to prevent arrest or conviction, etc. The same goes for chemical coercion, being drugged into compliance. The same goes for exploitation of an impaired state. A woman getting very drunk has not in any way consented to sex, and even if she did consent in a severely impaired state, that is not considered a consent from a person in full control of their faculties. A women does not have to subjected to or threatened with physical harm to be raped.
– Amadeus
1 hour ago
@rus9384 Non-physical coercion is still rape; e.g. threatening their job, blackmailing them, demanding sex to prevent arrest or conviction, etc. The same goes for chemical coercion, being drugged into compliance. The same goes for exploitation of an impaired state. A woman getting very drunk has not in any way consented to sex, and even if she did consent in a severely impaired state, that is not considered a consent from a person in full control of their faculties. A women does not have to subjected to or threatened with physical harm to be raped.
– Amadeus
1 hour ago
1
1
I meant by that violent rape, like rape at knifepoint or gunpoint. Brutal rape. IMO those are irredeemable.
– Amadeus
59 mins ago
I meant by that violent rape, like rape at knifepoint or gunpoint. Brutal rape. IMO those are irredeemable.
– Amadeus
59 mins ago
 |Â
show 7 more comments
rus9384 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
rus9384 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
rus9384 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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related: writing.stackexchange.com/questions/33293/…
– Galastel
4 hours ago
@Galastel, I think it is different because these attitudes in some sense are mine too. And I understand many people do not agree. But the problem is how to show what I want to show without causing a feeling of rejection in people (using naive approach because people might think "He tells pedophiles are not immoral. Therefore he is immoral" while I mean that pedophiles are people too, who also deserve being treated as people, even of they have some impulses which could harm children, but not androids).
– rus9384
4 hours ago
Where is the conflict? Do you want this character to present a sort of manifesto that is challenged by a fictional world? Are you asking us to critic his (rather immature) ideas that all impulses are "good" and real-life victims are so unimportant they can be pasted over with happy simulacrum? A character without a world is exactly like this character's "controversial" opinions: unchallenged, immature, and unrealistic. What experience has he had in any of these situations? Create a story to challenge his ideas. People talk a lot of crazy bs, but who they really are is revealed under pressure.
– wetcircuit
3 hours ago
@wetcircuit There are several conflicts in the novel. The main conflict is probably protagonist's position versus social position. There are several antagonists, but the story does not end when they lose. The setting is fictional but the society is similar (not identical, no) to ours. I am not asking for critic if you read the question. Instead, I ask how to write the novel so it could not be easily discredited. Not all impulses are good, I never said it. I don't say, for example, that peeing in the face is good. But I say such desires occur when looking at the actions of those lawgivers.
– rus9384
3 hours ago
"Protagonist is right and everyone else is wrong, The End".... Expect the character to flatter like-minded people who believe they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. You have a "rant" not a character. We're not here to "fix" your manifesto, we're here to make suggestions for better writing. You claim the audience will be limited by their biases, but your alter-ego has no flaws or biases. You don't answer what experience he has to make him an authority or how his opinions are tested and challenged. There is no conflict here, just a strawman and self-confirming bias. Read Mein Kampf.
– wetcircuit
2 hours ago