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Can a Battle Master fighter apply the Feinting Attack and Trip Attack maneuvers to the same attack roll?
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Battle Master fighters (PHB, p. 73-74) can apply a number of maneuvers to their attacks, including Feinting Attack and Trip Attack.
Feinting Attack is a bonus action and uses one manoeuvre here, during the bonus action. This gives advantage on the attack roll, with the superiority die adding to the damage on a hit. Trip Attack applies on a hit, forcing a Strength saving throw to avoid being knocked prone and adding the superiority die to the damage as well.
I understand that no more than one manoeuvre can be used per attack.
If my fighter uses Feinting Attack and then attacks on the same turn, can I apply another manoeuvre to that attack, even though Feinting Attack is affecting the attack roll already?
Specifically, would I be able to use Trip Attack on that attack roll (thus getting the benefits of both Feinting and Trip on that attack)? In this case, would I be able to add two superiority dice to the damage on this attack roll?
I’m not interested in house rules, just clarification on RAW.
dnd-5e class-feature attack fighter combat-maneuver
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Battle Master fighters (PHB, p. 73-74) can apply a number of maneuvers to their attacks, including Feinting Attack and Trip Attack.
Feinting Attack is a bonus action and uses one manoeuvre here, during the bonus action. This gives advantage on the attack roll, with the superiority die adding to the damage on a hit. Trip Attack applies on a hit, forcing a Strength saving throw to avoid being knocked prone and adding the superiority die to the damage as well.
I understand that no more than one manoeuvre can be used per attack.
If my fighter uses Feinting Attack and then attacks on the same turn, can I apply another manoeuvre to that attack, even though Feinting Attack is affecting the attack roll already?
Specifically, would I be able to use Trip Attack on that attack roll (thus getting the benefits of both Feinting and Trip on that attack)? In this case, would I be able to add two superiority dice to the damage on this attack roll?
I’m not interested in house rules, just clarification on RAW.
dnd-5e class-feature attack fighter combat-maneuver
edited 12 mins ago
V2Blast
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asked 4 hours ago
James
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1
Potentially related: Can more than one battle master maneuver be used in the same attack?
– NautArch
3 hours ago
2
@NautArch More specifically: this answer to that question is 100% related.
– Axoren
3 hours ago
1
@Miniman I most certainly am not. He’ll have a hand crossbow on his belt to fire using a bonus action if/when appropriate. This fits much better thematically with the character I have built and the idea of a shield + rapier combo causes me physical pain from an aesthetics standpoint haha. Also, please correct me if I’m wrong but for both the duellist fighting style and defensive duellist feat I believe I must only be holding a single finesse weapon. Not sure how a shield affects that or if it would still be fine.
– James
3 hours ago
1
@James Nope, neither the fighting style nor the feat require you to have an empty hand - the FS only requires you're not wielding other weapons (the feat doesn't specify one weapon at all, only that you have a finesse weapon!) See rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/45094/…
– Carcer
2 hours ago
1
@James, at the risk of going way off topic: You are of course free to style your character in every way you want, but historically the duelists of 15th/16th century Europe often used a buckler with a dagger, short sword or rapier. If I'm not mistaken, a buckler was even defined specifically for such one-on-one combat. See toxophilus.org/articles/anglais/sword_and_buckler_en.html as a starting point for some more info.
– Buurman
2 hours ago
 |Â
show 4 more comments
up vote
12
down vote
favorite
up vote
12
down vote
favorite
Battle Master fighters (PHB, p. 73-74) can apply a number of maneuvers to their attacks, including Feinting Attack and Trip Attack.
Feinting Attack is a bonus action and uses one manoeuvre here, during the bonus action. This gives advantage on the attack roll, with the superiority die adding to the damage on a hit. Trip Attack applies on a hit, forcing a Strength saving throw to avoid being knocked prone and adding the superiority die to the damage as well.
I understand that no more than one manoeuvre can be used per attack.
If my fighter uses Feinting Attack and then attacks on the same turn, can I apply another manoeuvre to that attack, even though Feinting Attack is affecting the attack roll already?
Specifically, would I be able to use Trip Attack on that attack roll (thus getting the benefits of both Feinting and Trip on that attack)? In this case, would I be able to add two superiority dice to the damage on this attack roll?
I’m not interested in house rules, just clarification on RAW.
dnd-5e class-feature attack fighter combat-maneuver
edited 12 mins ago
V2Blast
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asked 4 hours ago
James
612
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Battle Master fighters (PHB, p. 73-74) can apply a number of maneuvers to their attacks, including Feinting Attack and Trip Attack.
Feinting Attack is a bonus action and uses one manoeuvre here, during the bonus action. This gives advantage on the attack roll, with the superiority die adding to the damage on a hit. Trip Attack applies on a hit, forcing a Strength saving throw to avoid being knocked prone and adding the superiority die to the damage as well.
I understand that no more than one manoeuvre can be used per attack.
If my fighter uses Feinting Attack and then attacks on the same turn, can I apply another manoeuvre to that attack, even though Feinting Attack is affecting the attack roll already?
Specifically, would I be able to use Trip Attack on that attack roll (thus getting the benefits of both Feinting and Trip on that attack)? In this case, would I be able to add two superiority dice to the damage on this attack roll?
I’m not interested in house rules, just clarification on RAW.
dnd-5e class-feature attack fighter combat-maneuver
dnd-5e class-feature attack fighter combat-maneuver
edited 12 mins ago
V2Blast
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asked 4 hours ago
James
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edited 12 mins ago
V2Blast
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asked 4 hours ago
James
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edited 12 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
edited 12 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
edited 12 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
14.6k23596
asked 4 hours ago
James
612
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James is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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asked 4 hours ago
James
612
asked 4 hours ago
James
612
612
New contributor
James is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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New contributor
James is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
James is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
Potentially related: Can more than one battle master maneuver be used in the same attack?
– NautArch
3 hours ago
2
@NautArch More specifically: this answer to that question is 100% related.
– Axoren
3 hours ago
1
@Miniman I most certainly am not. He’ll have a hand crossbow on his belt to fire using a bonus action if/when appropriate. This fits much better thematically with the character I have built and the idea of a shield + rapier combo causes me physical pain from an aesthetics standpoint haha. Also, please correct me if I’m wrong but for both the duellist fighting style and defensive duellist feat I believe I must only be holding a single finesse weapon. Not sure how a shield affects that or if it would still be fine.
– James
3 hours ago
1
@James Nope, neither the fighting style nor the feat require you to have an empty hand - the FS only requires you're not wielding other weapons (the feat doesn't specify one weapon at all, only that you have a finesse weapon!) See rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/45094/…
– Carcer
2 hours ago
1
@James, at the risk of going way off topic: You are of course free to style your character in every way you want, but historically the duelists of 15th/16th century Europe often used a buckler with a dagger, short sword or rapier. If I'm not mistaken, a buckler was even defined specifically for such one-on-one combat. See toxophilus.org/articles/anglais/sword_and_buckler_en.html as a starting point for some more info.
– Buurman
2 hours ago
 |Â
show 4 more comments
1
Potentially related: Can more than one battle master maneuver be used in the same attack?
– NautArch
3 hours ago
2
@NautArch More specifically: this answer to that question is 100% related.
– Axoren
3 hours ago
1
@Miniman I most certainly am not. He’ll have a hand crossbow on his belt to fire using a bonus action if/when appropriate. This fits much better thematically with the character I have built and the idea of a shield + rapier combo causes me physical pain from an aesthetics standpoint haha. Also, please correct me if I’m wrong but for both the duellist fighting style and defensive duellist feat I believe I must only be holding a single finesse weapon. Not sure how a shield affects that or if it would still be fine.
– James
3 hours ago
1
@James Nope, neither the fighting style nor the feat require you to have an empty hand - the FS only requires you're not wielding other weapons (the feat doesn't specify one weapon at all, only that you have a finesse weapon!) See rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/45094/…
– Carcer
2 hours ago
1
@James, at the risk of going way off topic: You are of course free to style your character in every way you want, but historically the duelists of 15th/16th century Europe often used a buckler with a dagger, short sword or rapier. If I'm not mistaken, a buckler was even defined specifically for such one-on-one combat. See toxophilus.org/articles/anglais/sword_and_buckler_en.html as a starting point for some more info.
– Buurman
2 hours ago
1
1
Potentially related: Can more than one battle master maneuver be used in the same attack?
– NautArch
3 hours ago
Potentially related: Can more than one battle master maneuver be used in the same attack?
– NautArch
3 hours ago
2
2
@NautArch More specifically: this answer to that question is 100% related.
– Axoren
3 hours ago
@NautArch More specifically: this answer to that question is 100% related.
– Axoren
3 hours ago
1
1
@Miniman I most certainly am not. He’ll have a hand crossbow on his belt to fire using a bonus action if/when appropriate. This fits much better thematically with the character I have built and the idea of a shield + rapier combo causes me physical pain from an aesthetics standpoint haha. Also, please correct me if I’m wrong but for both the duellist fighting style and defensive duellist feat I believe I must only be holding a single finesse weapon. Not sure how a shield affects that or if it would still be fine.
– James
3 hours ago
@Miniman I most certainly am not. He’ll have a hand crossbow on his belt to fire using a bonus action if/when appropriate. This fits much better thematically with the character I have built and the idea of a shield + rapier combo causes me physical pain from an aesthetics standpoint haha. Also, please correct me if I’m wrong but for both the duellist fighting style and defensive duellist feat I believe I must only be holding a single finesse weapon. Not sure how a shield affects that or if it would still be fine.
– James
3 hours ago
1
1
@James Nope, neither the fighting style nor the feat require you to have an empty hand - the FS only requires you're not wielding other weapons (the feat doesn't specify one weapon at all, only that you have a finesse weapon!) See rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/45094/…
– Carcer
2 hours ago
@James Nope, neither the fighting style nor the feat require you to have an empty hand - the FS only requires you're not wielding other weapons (the feat doesn't specify one weapon at all, only that you have a finesse weapon!) See rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/45094/…
– Carcer
2 hours ago
1
1
@James, at the risk of going way off topic: You are of course free to style your character in every way you want, but historically the duelists of 15th/16th century Europe often used a buckler with a dagger, short sword or rapier. If I'm not mistaken, a buckler was even defined specifically for such one-on-one combat. See toxophilus.org/articles/anglais/sword_and_buckler_en.html as a starting point for some more info.
– Buurman
2 hours ago
@James, at the risk of going way off topic: You are of course free to style your character in every way you want, but historically the duelists of 15th/16th century Europe often used a buckler with a dagger, short sword or rapier. If I'm not mistaken, a buckler was even defined specifically for such one-on-one combat. See toxophilus.org/articles/anglais/sword_and_buckler_en.html as a starting point for some more info.
– Buurman
2 hours ago
 |Â
show 4 more comments
4 Answers
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Yes, you can get the benefit of both maneuvers on one attack
By using Feinting Attack you apply an ongoing affect to a creature using your bonus action. This effect triggers on your next attack.
As specified in the Feinting Attack,
You can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action on your turn to feint [...] Until the end of the turn, you have advantage on your next attack roll against that creature.
A Feinting Attack is triggered using your bonus action. The Maneuvers section specifies that
You can use only one maneuver per attack.
However, you will have used one maneuver on your bonus action, the effect of which takes place on your next attack. On your next attack you may choose to add whatever maneuver you see fit.
edited 12 mins ago
V2Blast
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answered 3 hours ago
Duncan McKirdy
626211
Thanks for the response dude
– James
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
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You're probably intended to be able to use these manoeuvres together.
Your logic is generally sound. The precise wording in the rules is:
Many maneuvers enhance an attack in some way. You can use only one maneuver per attack.
This is in reference to the manoeuvres which you can trigger because you hit with an attack or are making an attack - so you don't get to use Disarming Attack and Trip Attack at the same time. However, Feinting Attack doesn't work that way - the manoeuvre isn't a modification to an attack, it's a separate action that you perform which will grant advantage to a later attack - you don't use it on an attack directly like most other manouevres. Thematically, it makes perfect sense for a Battlemaster to combine a Feinting Attack with their other techniques, and making them exclusive to each other would be an unnecessarily harsh reading of the rules.
If Feinting Attack's trigger was written "when you make a melee weapon attack, you may use a bonus action to spend a superiority die and grant yourself advantage on the attack roll" - which is functionally how the manoeuvre will be used most of the time - then this would be a different ruling.
As a final note, you might have slightly misinterpreted how some manoeuvres are used - you're not at risk of wasting your second superiority die due to missing the attack. Trip Attack is triggered "when you hit", not when you attack, so you would only ever be using it after you've already confirmed the hit. (It is of course possible that the target makes the save to avoid being tripped, but even then you still get to add your superiority die to damage.)
answered 3 hours ago
Carcer
18.5k247103
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation about AmE/BrE spelling has been moved to chat.
– nitsua60♦
2 hours ago
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up vote
2
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No, you can't, because both superiority die would apply to the same damage roll (the same attack).
You learn three special maneuvers. You can use only one maneuver per attack.
You can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action on your turn to feint... If that attack hits, add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll.
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to knock the target down... You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll
The problem here is that the trigger and activation for both maneuvers apply to the same attack. It is happening before and after the landed hit. This is evident in that if you did apply both maneuvers to the attack, as you stated earlier, you would expend two superiority dice to completely resolve a single attack. Trip Attack modifies the attack so that the defender is forced to make a saving throw, adding a property to the attack.
This is similar to a paladin's smite ability. He is not making an additional attack to apply smite damage, he is giving the attack smite properties for additional damage.
The use of your bonus action for feigning attack is an additional expenditure to activate the ability - NOT an additional attack. The superiority dice itself still modifies the same attack resolution as the trip attack.
A cheap way to get advantage on all attacks AND still be able to use combat maneuvers is to take a single level dip into barbarian. A character is able to use reckless assault AND maneuvers to modify the same attack. While raging you also get a modest damage bonus to increase the DC of the save against the damage dependent trip attack.
On Wasted Superiority Dice
You can only expend a superiority die for trip AFTER the attack hits and before you roll damage. If you miss with your initial attack, you are not able to expend a superiority dice to add the tripping property to the attack.
So, even if you were able to use feignt and trip attack on the same attack roll (which you cannot), you would never waste the trip manuver as if you missed, you could not activate trip.
edited 11 mins ago
V2Blast
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answered 2 hours ago
Play Patrice
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The intent is that you can't apply multiple maneuvers to one roll; Sage Advice addresses this
Per Sage Advice:
Question Asker: Hi guys can a fighter use 2 maneuvers - Riposte on enemy's attack & Pushing Attack on his attack? i.e 1/attack
Jeremy Crawford: The intent is no more than 1 maneuver associated with any attack. Riposte is in a gray area, but I would say no.
So no, since the Feinting Attack maneuver is already affecting your attack, you can't use another maneuver on it.
(In the asked case, Riposte triggering gives you an extra attack; that attack is "associated with" the Riposte maneuver, thus you can't use another maneuver on the attack. If that's a gray area that still has the Sage leaning no, then Feint+another maneuver, where you're literally adding both effects and damage dice to the same attack, is a definite no.)
edited 11 mins ago
V2Blast
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answered 21 mins ago
Xanthir
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1
Whenever Jeremy says "The intent is...", there is clearly some ambiguity. I certainly wouldn't read this as a definitive "No"
– David Coffron
19 mins ago
There's ambiguity in that case, but Jeremy is clarifying the intent behind the rule. The case presented in this question is even more clear-cut when you apply Jeremy's stated intent; I've editted my answer to make that clearer.
– Xanthir
17 mins ago
I think you could make it even clearer by saying explicitly that this is Rules as Intended and then go on to say what the rules say as written. In fact, if you covered both RAI and RAW I think this could be a really good answer. However, answers with just JC quotes are generally not the best.
– Rubiksmoose
15 mins ago
RAW is slightly ambiguous, as others have already stated. I literally referenced Sage Advice in my heading, so the fact that this is RAI seems clear. (It's not a case of RAI conflicting with RAW, so it's not like that's a particularly relevant distinction anyway; this is just clarifying a situation where RAW can be read slightly more permissively.)
– Xanthir
11 mins ago
add a comment |Â
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
6
down vote
Yes, you can get the benefit of both maneuvers on one attack
By using Feinting Attack you apply an ongoing affect to a creature using your bonus action. This effect triggers on your next attack.
As specified in the Feinting Attack,
You can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action on your turn to feint [...] Until the end of the turn, you have advantage on your next attack roll against that creature.
A Feinting Attack is triggered using your bonus action. The Maneuvers section specifies that
You can use only one maneuver per attack.
However, you will have used one maneuver on your bonus action, the effect of which takes place on your next attack. On your next attack you may choose to add whatever maneuver you see fit.
edited 12 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
answered 3 hours ago
Duncan McKirdy
626211
Thanks for the response dude
– James
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
Yes, you can get the benefit of both maneuvers on one attack
By using Feinting Attack you apply an ongoing affect to a creature using your bonus action. This effect triggers on your next attack.
As specified in the Feinting Attack,
You can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action on your turn to feint [...] Until the end of the turn, you have advantage on your next attack roll against that creature.
A Feinting Attack is triggered using your bonus action. The Maneuvers section specifies that
You can use only one maneuver per attack.
However, you will have used one maneuver on your bonus action, the effect of which takes place on your next attack. On your next attack you may choose to add whatever maneuver you see fit.
edited 12 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
answered 3 hours ago
Duncan McKirdy
626211
Thanks for the response dude
– James
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
up vote
6
down vote
Yes, you can get the benefit of both maneuvers on one attack
By using Feinting Attack you apply an ongoing affect to a creature using your bonus action. This effect triggers on your next attack.
As specified in the Feinting Attack,
You can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action on your turn to feint [...] Until the end of the turn, you have advantage on your next attack roll against that creature.
A Feinting Attack is triggered using your bonus action. The Maneuvers section specifies that
You can use only one maneuver per attack.
However, you will have used one maneuver on your bonus action, the effect of which takes place on your next attack. On your next attack you may choose to add whatever maneuver you see fit.
edited 12 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
answered 3 hours ago
Duncan McKirdy
626211
Yes, you can get the benefit of both maneuvers on one attack
By using Feinting Attack you apply an ongoing affect to a creature using your bonus action. This effect triggers on your next attack.
As specified in the Feinting Attack,
You can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action on your turn to feint [...] Until the end of the turn, you have advantage on your next attack roll against that creature.
A Feinting Attack is triggered using your bonus action. The Maneuvers section specifies that
You can use only one maneuver per attack.
However, you will have used one maneuver on your bonus action, the effect of which takes place on your next attack. On your next attack you may choose to add whatever maneuver you see fit.
edited 12 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
answered 3 hours ago
Duncan McKirdy
626211
edited 12 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
edited 12 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
edited 12 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
14.6k23596
answered 3 hours ago
Duncan McKirdy
626211
answered 3 hours ago
Duncan McKirdy
626211
answered 3 hours ago
Duncan McKirdy
626211
626211
Thanks for the response dude
– James
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
Thanks for the response dude
– James
3 hours ago
Thanks for the response dude
– James
3 hours ago
Thanks for the response dude
– James
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
You're probably intended to be able to use these manoeuvres together.
Your logic is generally sound. The precise wording in the rules is:
Many maneuvers enhance an attack in some way. You can use only one maneuver per attack.
This is in reference to the manoeuvres which you can trigger because you hit with an attack or are making an attack - so you don't get to use Disarming Attack and Trip Attack at the same time. However, Feinting Attack doesn't work that way - the manoeuvre isn't a modification to an attack, it's a separate action that you perform which will grant advantage to a later attack - you don't use it on an attack directly like most other manouevres. Thematically, it makes perfect sense for a Battlemaster to combine a Feinting Attack with their other techniques, and making them exclusive to each other would be an unnecessarily harsh reading of the rules.
If Feinting Attack's trigger was written "when you make a melee weapon attack, you may use a bonus action to spend a superiority die and grant yourself advantage on the attack roll" - which is functionally how the manoeuvre will be used most of the time - then this would be a different ruling.
As a final note, you might have slightly misinterpreted how some manoeuvres are used - you're not at risk of wasting your second superiority die due to missing the attack. Trip Attack is triggered "when you hit", not when you attack, so you would only ever be using it after you've already confirmed the hit. (It is of course possible that the target makes the save to avoid being tripped, but even then you still get to add your superiority die to damage.)
answered 3 hours ago
Carcer
18.5k247103
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation about AmE/BrE spelling has been moved to chat.
– nitsua60♦
2 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
You're probably intended to be able to use these manoeuvres together.
Your logic is generally sound. The precise wording in the rules is:
Many maneuvers enhance an attack in some way. You can use only one maneuver per attack.
This is in reference to the manoeuvres which you can trigger because you hit with an attack or are making an attack - so you don't get to use Disarming Attack and Trip Attack at the same time. However, Feinting Attack doesn't work that way - the manoeuvre isn't a modification to an attack, it's a separate action that you perform which will grant advantage to a later attack - you don't use it on an attack directly like most other manouevres. Thematically, it makes perfect sense for a Battlemaster to combine a Feinting Attack with their other techniques, and making them exclusive to each other would be an unnecessarily harsh reading of the rules.
If Feinting Attack's trigger was written "when you make a melee weapon attack, you may use a bonus action to spend a superiority die and grant yourself advantage on the attack roll" - which is functionally how the manoeuvre will be used most of the time - then this would be a different ruling.
As a final note, you might have slightly misinterpreted how some manoeuvres are used - you're not at risk of wasting your second superiority die due to missing the attack. Trip Attack is triggered "when you hit", not when you attack, so you would only ever be using it after you've already confirmed the hit. (It is of course possible that the target makes the save to avoid being tripped, but even then you still get to add your superiority die to damage.)
answered 3 hours ago
Carcer
18.5k247103
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation about AmE/BrE spelling has been moved to chat.
– nitsua60♦
2 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
You're probably intended to be able to use these manoeuvres together.
Your logic is generally sound. The precise wording in the rules is:
Many maneuvers enhance an attack in some way. You can use only one maneuver per attack.
This is in reference to the manoeuvres which you can trigger because you hit with an attack or are making an attack - so you don't get to use Disarming Attack and Trip Attack at the same time. However, Feinting Attack doesn't work that way - the manoeuvre isn't a modification to an attack, it's a separate action that you perform which will grant advantage to a later attack - you don't use it on an attack directly like most other manouevres. Thematically, it makes perfect sense for a Battlemaster to combine a Feinting Attack with their other techniques, and making them exclusive to each other would be an unnecessarily harsh reading of the rules.
If Feinting Attack's trigger was written "when you make a melee weapon attack, you may use a bonus action to spend a superiority die and grant yourself advantage on the attack roll" - which is functionally how the manoeuvre will be used most of the time - then this would be a different ruling.
As a final note, you might have slightly misinterpreted how some manoeuvres are used - you're not at risk of wasting your second superiority die due to missing the attack. Trip Attack is triggered "when you hit", not when you attack, so you would only ever be using it after you've already confirmed the hit. (It is of course possible that the target makes the save to avoid being tripped, but even then you still get to add your superiority die to damage.)
answered 3 hours ago
Carcer
18.5k247103
You're probably intended to be able to use these manoeuvres together.
Your logic is generally sound. The precise wording in the rules is:
Many maneuvers enhance an attack in some way. You can use only one maneuver per attack.
This is in reference to the manoeuvres which you can trigger because you hit with an attack or are making an attack - so you don't get to use Disarming Attack and Trip Attack at the same time. However, Feinting Attack doesn't work that way - the manoeuvre isn't a modification to an attack, it's a separate action that you perform which will grant advantage to a later attack - you don't use it on an attack directly like most other manouevres. Thematically, it makes perfect sense for a Battlemaster to combine a Feinting Attack with their other techniques, and making them exclusive to each other would be an unnecessarily harsh reading of the rules.
If Feinting Attack's trigger was written "when you make a melee weapon attack, you may use a bonus action to spend a superiority die and grant yourself advantage on the attack roll" - which is functionally how the manoeuvre will be used most of the time - then this would be a different ruling.
As a final note, you might have slightly misinterpreted how some manoeuvres are used - you're not at risk of wasting your second superiority die due to missing the attack. Trip Attack is triggered "when you hit", not when you attack, so you would only ever be using it after you've already confirmed the hit. (It is of course possible that the target makes the save to avoid being tripped, but even then you still get to add your superiority die to damage.)
answered 3 hours ago
Carcer
18.5k247103
edited 3 hours ago
answered 3 hours ago
Carcer
18.5k247103
answered 3 hours ago
Carcer
18.5k247103
answered 3 hours ago
Carcer
18.5k247103
18.5k247103
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation about AmE/BrE spelling has been moved to chat.
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2 hours ago
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Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation about AmE/BrE spelling has been moved to chat.
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Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation about AmE/BrE spelling has been moved to chat.
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No, you can't, because both superiority die would apply to the same damage roll (the same attack).
You learn three special maneuvers. You can use only one maneuver per attack.
You can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action on your turn to feint... If that attack hits, add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll.
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to knock the target down... You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll
The problem here is that the trigger and activation for both maneuvers apply to the same attack. It is happening before and after the landed hit. This is evident in that if you did apply both maneuvers to the attack, as you stated earlier, you would expend two superiority dice to completely resolve a single attack. Trip Attack modifies the attack so that the defender is forced to make a saving throw, adding a property to the attack.
This is similar to a paladin's smite ability. He is not making an additional attack to apply smite damage, he is giving the attack smite properties for additional damage.
The use of your bonus action for feigning attack is an additional expenditure to activate the ability - NOT an additional attack. The superiority dice itself still modifies the same attack resolution as the trip attack.
A cheap way to get advantage on all attacks AND still be able to use combat maneuvers is to take a single level dip into barbarian. A character is able to use reckless assault AND maneuvers to modify the same attack. While raging you also get a modest damage bonus to increase the DC of the save against the damage dependent trip attack.
On Wasted Superiority Dice
You can only expend a superiority die for trip AFTER the attack hits and before you roll damage. If you miss with your initial attack, you are not able to expend a superiority dice to add the tripping property to the attack.
So, even if you were able to use feignt and trip attack on the same attack roll (which you cannot), you would never waste the trip manuver as if you missed, you could not activate trip.
edited 11 mins ago
V2Blast
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answered 2 hours ago
Play Patrice
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up vote
2
down vote
No, you can't, because both superiority die would apply to the same damage roll (the same attack).
You learn three special maneuvers. You can use only one maneuver per attack.
You can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action on your turn to feint... If that attack hits, add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll.
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to knock the target down... You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll
The problem here is that the trigger and activation for both maneuvers apply to the same attack. It is happening before and after the landed hit. This is evident in that if you did apply both maneuvers to the attack, as you stated earlier, you would expend two superiority dice to completely resolve a single attack. Trip Attack modifies the attack so that the defender is forced to make a saving throw, adding a property to the attack.
This is similar to a paladin's smite ability. He is not making an additional attack to apply smite damage, he is giving the attack smite properties for additional damage.
The use of your bonus action for feigning attack is an additional expenditure to activate the ability - NOT an additional attack. The superiority dice itself still modifies the same attack resolution as the trip attack.
A cheap way to get advantage on all attacks AND still be able to use combat maneuvers is to take a single level dip into barbarian. A character is able to use reckless assault AND maneuvers to modify the same attack. While raging you also get a modest damage bonus to increase the DC of the save against the damage dependent trip attack.
On Wasted Superiority Dice
You can only expend a superiority die for trip AFTER the attack hits and before you roll damage. If you miss with your initial attack, you are not able to expend a superiority dice to add the tripping property to the attack.
So, even if you were able to use feignt and trip attack on the same attack roll (which you cannot), you would never waste the trip manuver as if you missed, you could not activate trip.
edited 11 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
answered 2 hours ago
Play Patrice
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up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
No, you can't, because both superiority die would apply to the same damage roll (the same attack).
You learn three special maneuvers. You can use only one maneuver per attack.
You can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action on your turn to feint... If that attack hits, add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll.
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to knock the target down... You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll
The problem here is that the trigger and activation for both maneuvers apply to the same attack. It is happening before and after the landed hit. This is evident in that if you did apply both maneuvers to the attack, as you stated earlier, you would expend two superiority dice to completely resolve a single attack. Trip Attack modifies the attack so that the defender is forced to make a saving throw, adding a property to the attack.
This is similar to a paladin's smite ability. He is not making an additional attack to apply smite damage, he is giving the attack smite properties for additional damage.
The use of your bonus action for feigning attack is an additional expenditure to activate the ability - NOT an additional attack. The superiority dice itself still modifies the same attack resolution as the trip attack.
A cheap way to get advantage on all attacks AND still be able to use combat maneuvers is to take a single level dip into barbarian. A character is able to use reckless assault AND maneuvers to modify the same attack. While raging you also get a modest damage bonus to increase the DC of the save against the damage dependent trip attack.
On Wasted Superiority Dice
You can only expend a superiority die for trip AFTER the attack hits and before you roll damage. If you miss with your initial attack, you are not able to expend a superiority dice to add the tripping property to the attack.
So, even if you were able to use feignt and trip attack on the same attack roll (which you cannot), you would never waste the trip manuver as if you missed, you could not activate trip.
edited 11 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
answered 2 hours ago
Play Patrice
38117
New contributor
Play Patrice is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
No, you can't, because both superiority die would apply to the same damage roll (the same attack).
You learn three special maneuvers. You can use only one maneuver per attack.
You can expend one superiority die and use a bonus action on your turn to feint... If that attack hits, add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll.
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to knock the target down... You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll
The problem here is that the trigger and activation for both maneuvers apply to the same attack. It is happening before and after the landed hit. This is evident in that if you did apply both maneuvers to the attack, as you stated earlier, you would expend two superiority dice to completely resolve a single attack. Trip Attack modifies the attack so that the defender is forced to make a saving throw, adding a property to the attack.
This is similar to a paladin's smite ability. He is not making an additional attack to apply smite damage, he is giving the attack smite properties for additional damage.
The use of your bonus action for feigning attack is an additional expenditure to activate the ability - NOT an additional attack. The superiority dice itself still modifies the same attack resolution as the trip attack.
A cheap way to get advantage on all attacks AND still be able to use combat maneuvers is to take a single level dip into barbarian. A character is able to use reckless assault AND maneuvers to modify the same attack. While raging you also get a modest damage bonus to increase the DC of the save against the damage dependent trip attack.
On Wasted Superiority Dice
You can only expend a superiority die for trip AFTER the attack hits and before you roll damage. If you miss with your initial attack, you are not able to expend a superiority dice to add the tripping property to the attack.
So, even if you were able to use feignt and trip attack on the same attack roll (which you cannot), you would never waste the trip manuver as if you missed, you could not activate trip.
edited 11 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
answered 2 hours ago
Play Patrice
38117
New contributor
Play Patrice is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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edited 11 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
edited 11 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
edited 11 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
14.6k23596
answered 2 hours ago
Play Patrice
38117
New contributor
Play Patrice is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 2 hours ago
Play Patrice
38117
answered 2 hours ago
Play Patrice
38117
38117
New contributor
Play Patrice is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Play Patrice is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Play Patrice is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
The intent is that you can't apply multiple maneuvers to one roll; Sage Advice addresses this
Per Sage Advice:
Question Asker: Hi guys can a fighter use 2 maneuvers - Riposte on enemy's attack & Pushing Attack on his attack? i.e 1/attack
Jeremy Crawford: The intent is no more than 1 maneuver associated with any attack. Riposte is in a gray area, but I would say no.
So no, since the Feinting Attack maneuver is already affecting your attack, you can't use another maneuver on it.
(In the asked case, Riposte triggering gives you an extra attack; that attack is "associated with" the Riposte maneuver, thus you can't use another maneuver on the attack. If that's a gray area that still has the Sage leaning no, then Feint+another maneuver, where you're literally adding both effects and damage dice to the same attack, is a definite no.)
edited 11 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
answered 21 mins ago
Xanthir
47426
1
Whenever Jeremy says "The intent is...", there is clearly some ambiguity. I certainly wouldn't read this as a definitive "No"
– David Coffron
19 mins ago
There's ambiguity in that case, but Jeremy is clarifying the intent behind the rule. The case presented in this question is even more clear-cut when you apply Jeremy's stated intent; I've editted my answer to make that clearer.
– Xanthir
17 mins ago
I think you could make it even clearer by saying explicitly that this is Rules as Intended and then go on to say what the rules say as written. In fact, if you covered both RAI and RAW I think this could be a really good answer. However, answers with just JC quotes are generally not the best.
– Rubiksmoose
15 mins ago
RAW is slightly ambiguous, as others have already stated. I literally referenced Sage Advice in my heading, so the fact that this is RAI seems clear. (It's not a case of RAI conflicting with RAW, so it's not like that's a particularly relevant distinction anyway; this is just clarifying a situation where RAW can be read slightly more permissively.)
– Xanthir
11 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
The intent is that you can't apply multiple maneuvers to one roll; Sage Advice addresses this
Per Sage Advice:
Question Asker: Hi guys can a fighter use 2 maneuvers - Riposte on enemy's attack & Pushing Attack on his attack? i.e 1/attack
Jeremy Crawford: The intent is no more than 1 maneuver associated with any attack. Riposte is in a gray area, but I would say no.
So no, since the Feinting Attack maneuver is already affecting your attack, you can't use another maneuver on it.
(In the asked case, Riposte triggering gives you an extra attack; that attack is "associated with" the Riposte maneuver, thus you can't use another maneuver on the attack. If that's a gray area that still has the Sage leaning no, then Feint+another maneuver, where you're literally adding both effects and damage dice to the same attack, is a definite no.)
edited 11 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
answered 21 mins ago
Xanthir
47426
1
Whenever Jeremy says "The intent is...", there is clearly some ambiguity. I certainly wouldn't read this as a definitive "No"
– David Coffron
19 mins ago
There's ambiguity in that case, but Jeremy is clarifying the intent behind the rule. The case presented in this question is even more clear-cut when you apply Jeremy's stated intent; I've editted my answer to make that clearer.
– Xanthir
17 mins ago
I think you could make it even clearer by saying explicitly that this is Rules as Intended and then go on to say what the rules say as written. In fact, if you covered both RAI and RAW I think this could be a really good answer. However, answers with just JC quotes are generally not the best.
– Rubiksmoose
15 mins ago
RAW is slightly ambiguous, as others have already stated. I literally referenced Sage Advice in my heading, so the fact that this is RAI seems clear. (It's not a case of RAI conflicting with RAW, so it's not like that's a particularly relevant distinction anyway; this is just clarifying a situation where RAW can be read slightly more permissively.)
– Xanthir
11 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
The intent is that you can't apply multiple maneuvers to one roll; Sage Advice addresses this
Per Sage Advice:
Question Asker: Hi guys can a fighter use 2 maneuvers - Riposte on enemy's attack & Pushing Attack on his attack? i.e 1/attack
Jeremy Crawford: The intent is no more than 1 maneuver associated with any attack. Riposte is in a gray area, but I would say no.
So no, since the Feinting Attack maneuver is already affecting your attack, you can't use another maneuver on it.
(In the asked case, Riposte triggering gives you an extra attack; that attack is "associated with" the Riposte maneuver, thus you can't use another maneuver on the attack. If that's a gray area that still has the Sage leaning no, then Feint+another maneuver, where you're literally adding both effects and damage dice to the same attack, is a definite no.)
edited 11 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
answered 21 mins ago
Xanthir
47426
The intent is that you can't apply multiple maneuvers to one roll; Sage Advice addresses this
Per Sage Advice:
Question Asker: Hi guys can a fighter use 2 maneuvers - Riposte on enemy's attack & Pushing Attack on his attack? i.e 1/attack
Jeremy Crawford: The intent is no more than 1 maneuver associated with any attack. Riposte is in a gray area, but I would say no.
So no, since the Feinting Attack maneuver is already affecting your attack, you can't use another maneuver on it.
(In the asked case, Riposte triggering gives you an extra attack; that attack is "associated with" the Riposte maneuver, thus you can't use another maneuver on the attack. If that's a gray area that still has the Sage leaning no, then Feint+another maneuver, where you're literally adding both effects and damage dice to the same attack, is a definite no.)
edited 11 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
answered 21 mins ago
Xanthir
47426
edited 11 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
edited 11 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
edited 11 mins ago
V2Blast
14.6k23596
14.6k23596
answered 21 mins ago
Xanthir
47426
answered 21 mins ago
Xanthir
47426
answered 21 mins ago
Xanthir
47426
47426
1
Whenever Jeremy says "The intent is...", there is clearly some ambiguity. I certainly wouldn't read this as a definitive "No"
– David Coffron
19 mins ago
There's ambiguity in that case, but Jeremy is clarifying the intent behind the rule. The case presented in this question is even more clear-cut when you apply Jeremy's stated intent; I've editted my answer to make that clearer.
– Xanthir
17 mins ago
I think you could make it even clearer by saying explicitly that this is Rules as Intended and then go on to say what the rules say as written. In fact, if you covered both RAI and RAW I think this could be a really good answer. However, answers with just JC quotes are generally not the best.
– Rubiksmoose
15 mins ago
RAW is slightly ambiguous, as others have already stated. I literally referenced Sage Advice in my heading, so the fact that this is RAI seems clear. (It's not a case of RAI conflicting with RAW, so it's not like that's a particularly relevant distinction anyway; this is just clarifying a situation where RAW can be read slightly more permissively.)
– Xanthir
11 mins ago
add a comment |Â
1
Whenever Jeremy says "The intent is...", there is clearly some ambiguity. I certainly wouldn't read this as a definitive "No"
– David Coffron
19 mins ago
There's ambiguity in that case, but Jeremy is clarifying the intent behind the rule. The case presented in this question is even more clear-cut when you apply Jeremy's stated intent; I've editted my answer to make that clearer.
– Xanthir
17 mins ago
I think you could make it even clearer by saying explicitly that this is Rules as Intended and then go on to say what the rules say as written. In fact, if you covered both RAI and RAW I think this could be a really good answer. However, answers with just JC quotes are generally not the best.
– Rubiksmoose
15 mins ago
RAW is slightly ambiguous, as others have already stated. I literally referenced Sage Advice in my heading, so the fact that this is RAI seems clear. (It's not a case of RAI conflicting with RAW, so it's not like that's a particularly relevant distinction anyway; this is just clarifying a situation where RAW can be read slightly more permissively.)
– Xanthir
11 mins ago
1
1
Whenever Jeremy says "The intent is...", there is clearly some ambiguity. I certainly wouldn't read this as a definitive "No"
– David Coffron
19 mins ago
Whenever Jeremy says "The intent is...", there is clearly some ambiguity. I certainly wouldn't read this as a definitive "No"
– David Coffron
19 mins ago
There's ambiguity in that case, but Jeremy is clarifying the intent behind the rule. The case presented in this question is even more clear-cut when you apply Jeremy's stated intent; I've editted my answer to make that clearer.
– Xanthir
17 mins ago
There's ambiguity in that case, but Jeremy is clarifying the intent behind the rule. The case presented in this question is even more clear-cut when you apply Jeremy's stated intent; I've editted my answer to make that clearer.
– Xanthir
17 mins ago
I think you could make it even clearer by saying explicitly that this is Rules as Intended and then go on to say what the rules say as written. In fact, if you covered both RAI and RAW I think this could be a really good answer. However, answers with just JC quotes are generally not the best.
– Rubiksmoose
15 mins ago
I think you could make it even clearer by saying explicitly that this is Rules as Intended and then go on to say what the rules say as written. In fact, if you covered both RAI and RAW I think this could be a really good answer. However, answers with just JC quotes are generally not the best.
– Rubiksmoose
15 mins ago
RAW is slightly ambiguous, as others have already stated. I literally referenced Sage Advice in my heading, so the fact that this is RAI seems clear. (It's not a case of RAI conflicting with RAW, so it's not like that's a particularly relevant distinction anyway; this is just clarifying a situation where RAW can be read slightly more permissively.)
– Xanthir
11 mins ago
RAW is slightly ambiguous, as others have already stated. I literally referenced Sage Advice in my heading, so the fact that this is RAI seems clear. (It's not a case of RAI conflicting with RAW, so it's not like that's a particularly relevant distinction anyway; this is just clarifying a situation where RAW can be read slightly more permissively.)
– Xanthir
11 mins ago
add a comment |Â
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1
Potentially related: Can more than one battle master maneuver be used in the same attack?
– NautArch
3 hours ago
2
@NautArch More specifically: this answer to that question is 100% related.
– Axoren
3 hours ago
1
@Miniman I most certainly am not. He’ll have a hand crossbow on his belt to fire using a bonus action if/when appropriate. This fits much better thematically with the character I have built and the idea of a shield + rapier combo causes me physical pain from an aesthetics standpoint haha. Also, please correct me if I’m wrong but for both the duellist fighting style and defensive duellist feat I believe I must only be holding a single finesse weapon. Not sure how a shield affects that or if it would still be fine.
– James
3 hours ago
1
@James Nope, neither the fighting style nor the feat require you to have an empty hand - the FS only requires you're not wielding other weapons (the feat doesn't specify one weapon at all, only that you have a finesse weapon!) See rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/45094/…
– Carcer
2 hours ago
1
@James, at the risk of going way off topic: You are of course free to style your character in every way you want, but historically the duelists of 15th/16th century Europe often used a buckler with a dagger, short sword or rapier. If I'm not mistaken, a buckler was even defined specifically for such one-on-one combat. See toxophilus.org/articles/anglais/sword_and_buckler_en.html as a starting point for some more info.
– Buurman
2 hours ago