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How to increase a monster's CR without adjusting it's flavour too much?
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Background
I have a player who has a level 8 Half Orc Paladin (STR 16, CON 18, CHA 14, Vengeance oath, Sentinel and Orcish Fury feats, no magic items) whose backstory involves running away from his home town when he was young (12 or so?) when his orcish father turned up with a horde of orcs looking for him. He hasn't seen them since and he's now in his 40s or so.
I was going to have his "father" turn up with a horde of orcs (15 or so) and demand his "son" back, mirroring his backstory. I was planning on guiding the narrative to the paladin PC having an honour duel with the Orc War Chief (MM, pg 246). I have a player and group who are into narrative over gaining XP (in fact we're using milestone XP) so I think this will go down well (though if they just decide to fling fireballs at the orcs, then that's what happens; I'm not going to railroad this too hard).
Given that this will be a BIG backstory moment for the player, I want to make sure this duel is suitably epic. I want it to be winnable, but also deadly. It should be a skin-of-his-teeth victory. I imagine (since Chaotic Evil orcs don't have honour) that when the War Chief starts to lose, the other orcs might join in, or if the War Chief ends up on < 10HP, he might even try to run away, but we'll see how that goes. I imagine the rest of the party will join in if this ends up happening, but until then, I imagine the duel will be a one-on-one fight between the paladin and the War Chief.
Problem
Anyway, if I want this fight to be deadly, a CR 4 monster probably isn't going to cut it compared to a level 8 paladin (this is based on the encounter design table in the DMG, pg. 82). But at the same time, I like the War Chief's abilities and flavour and such, so I'd rather not pick a different creature.
Ideally, this monster should be about CR 6, but I wonder if just bumping up his health, AC and attack bonus will be enough, or whether this wouldn't really make him that much more threatening over the course of the duel (this is me trying to follow the table in the DMG, pg. 274). Even though this PC has none, magic items exist in my world so the War Chief could have one of those, but would a +1 weapon or whatever really change things that much?
Question
How can I change the stats of the Orc War Chief to increase the CR from 4 to 6, without changing it drastically like adding spellcasting or lair actions or otherwise messing with the monster's flavour?
dnd-5e balance monster-design
asked 1 hour ago
NathanS
17.9k672189
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
Background
I have a player who has a level 8 Half Orc Paladin (STR 16, CON 18, CHA 14, Vengeance oath, Sentinel and Orcish Fury feats, no magic items) whose backstory involves running away from his home town when he was young (12 or so?) when his orcish father turned up with a horde of orcs looking for him. He hasn't seen them since and he's now in his 40s or so.
I was going to have his "father" turn up with a horde of orcs (15 or so) and demand his "son" back, mirroring his backstory. I was planning on guiding the narrative to the paladin PC having an honour duel with the Orc War Chief (MM, pg 246). I have a player and group who are into narrative over gaining XP (in fact we're using milestone XP) so I think this will go down well (though if they just decide to fling fireballs at the orcs, then that's what happens; I'm not going to railroad this too hard).
Given that this will be a BIG backstory moment for the player, I want to make sure this duel is suitably epic. I want it to be winnable, but also deadly. It should be a skin-of-his-teeth victory. I imagine (since Chaotic Evil orcs don't have honour) that when the War Chief starts to lose, the other orcs might join in, or if the War Chief ends up on < 10HP, he might even try to run away, but we'll see how that goes. I imagine the rest of the party will join in if this ends up happening, but until then, I imagine the duel will be a one-on-one fight between the paladin and the War Chief.
Problem
Anyway, if I want this fight to be deadly, a CR 4 monster probably isn't going to cut it compared to a level 8 paladin (this is based on the encounter design table in the DMG, pg. 82). But at the same time, I like the War Chief's abilities and flavour and such, so I'd rather not pick a different creature.
Ideally, this monster should be about CR 6, but I wonder if just bumping up his health, AC and attack bonus will be enough, or whether this wouldn't really make him that much more threatening over the course of the duel (this is me trying to follow the table in the DMG, pg. 274). Even though this PC has none, magic items exist in my world so the War Chief could have one of those, but would a +1 weapon or whatever really change things that much?
Question
How can I change the stats of the Orc War Chief to increase the CR from 4 to 6, without changing it drastically like adding spellcasting or lair actions or otherwise messing with the monster's flavour?
dnd-5e balance monster-design
asked 1 hour ago
NathanS
17.9k672189
This is not an answer, but your initial premise has a bit of a flaw, that orc would be long dead unless you can somehow explain his unnaturally long lifespan. "The average orc seldom lived longer than 40 years, even if it managed to avoid violent death. It was unheard of for an orc to live longer than 45 years without magical aid" Your orc's father would be like 50+.
– Theik
1 hour ago
@Theik I had not considered that. Let's just assume that orcs in my universe have longer life spans. I'll have to make sure the group is aware of this sudden homebrew detail...
– NathanS
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
Background
I have a player who has a level 8 Half Orc Paladin (STR 16, CON 18, CHA 14, Vengeance oath, Sentinel and Orcish Fury feats, no magic items) whose backstory involves running away from his home town when he was young (12 or so?) when his orcish father turned up with a horde of orcs looking for him. He hasn't seen them since and he's now in his 40s or so.
I was going to have his "father" turn up with a horde of orcs (15 or so) and demand his "son" back, mirroring his backstory. I was planning on guiding the narrative to the paladin PC having an honour duel with the Orc War Chief (MM, pg 246). I have a player and group who are into narrative over gaining XP (in fact we're using milestone XP) so I think this will go down well (though if they just decide to fling fireballs at the orcs, then that's what happens; I'm not going to railroad this too hard).
Given that this will be a BIG backstory moment for the player, I want to make sure this duel is suitably epic. I want it to be winnable, but also deadly. It should be a skin-of-his-teeth victory. I imagine (since Chaotic Evil orcs don't have honour) that when the War Chief starts to lose, the other orcs might join in, or if the War Chief ends up on < 10HP, he might even try to run away, but we'll see how that goes. I imagine the rest of the party will join in if this ends up happening, but until then, I imagine the duel will be a one-on-one fight between the paladin and the War Chief.
Problem
Anyway, if I want this fight to be deadly, a CR 4 monster probably isn't going to cut it compared to a level 8 paladin (this is based on the encounter design table in the DMG, pg. 82). But at the same time, I like the War Chief's abilities and flavour and such, so I'd rather not pick a different creature.
Ideally, this monster should be about CR 6, but I wonder if just bumping up his health, AC and attack bonus will be enough, or whether this wouldn't really make him that much more threatening over the course of the duel (this is me trying to follow the table in the DMG, pg. 274). Even though this PC has none, magic items exist in my world so the War Chief could have one of those, but would a +1 weapon or whatever really change things that much?
Question
How can I change the stats of the Orc War Chief to increase the CR from 4 to 6, without changing it drastically like adding spellcasting or lair actions or otherwise messing with the monster's flavour?
dnd-5e balance monster-design
asked 1 hour ago
NathanS
17.9k672189
Background
I have a player who has a level 8 Half Orc Paladin (STR 16, CON 18, CHA 14, Vengeance oath, Sentinel and Orcish Fury feats, no magic items) whose backstory involves running away from his home town when he was young (12 or so?) when his orcish father turned up with a horde of orcs looking for him. He hasn't seen them since and he's now in his 40s or so.
I was going to have his "father" turn up with a horde of orcs (15 or so) and demand his "son" back, mirroring his backstory. I was planning on guiding the narrative to the paladin PC having an honour duel with the Orc War Chief (MM, pg 246). I have a player and group who are into narrative over gaining XP (in fact we're using milestone XP) so I think this will go down well (though if they just decide to fling fireballs at the orcs, then that's what happens; I'm not going to railroad this too hard).
Given that this will be a BIG backstory moment for the player, I want to make sure this duel is suitably epic. I want it to be winnable, but also deadly. It should be a skin-of-his-teeth victory. I imagine (since Chaotic Evil orcs don't have honour) that when the War Chief starts to lose, the other orcs might join in, or if the War Chief ends up on < 10HP, he might even try to run away, but we'll see how that goes. I imagine the rest of the party will join in if this ends up happening, but until then, I imagine the duel will be a one-on-one fight between the paladin and the War Chief.
Problem
Anyway, if I want this fight to be deadly, a CR 4 monster probably isn't going to cut it compared to a level 8 paladin (this is based on the encounter design table in the DMG, pg. 82). But at the same time, I like the War Chief's abilities and flavour and such, so I'd rather not pick a different creature.
Ideally, this monster should be about CR 6, but I wonder if just bumping up his health, AC and attack bonus will be enough, or whether this wouldn't really make him that much more threatening over the course of the duel (this is me trying to follow the table in the DMG, pg. 274). Even though this PC has none, magic items exist in my world so the War Chief could have one of those, but would a +1 weapon or whatever really change things that much?
Question
How can I change the stats of the Orc War Chief to increase the CR from 4 to 6, without changing it drastically like adding spellcasting or lair actions or otherwise messing with the monster's flavour?
dnd-5e balance monster-design
dnd-5e balance monster-design
asked 1 hour ago
NathanS
17.9k672189
asked 1 hour ago
NathanS
17.9k672189
edited 1 hour ago
asked 1 hour ago
NathanS
17.9k672189
asked 1 hour ago
NathanS
17.9k672189
asked 1 hour ago
NathanS
17.9k672189
17.9k672189
This is not an answer, but your initial premise has a bit of a flaw, that orc would be long dead unless you can somehow explain his unnaturally long lifespan. "The average orc seldom lived longer than 40 years, even if it managed to avoid violent death. It was unheard of for an orc to live longer than 45 years without magical aid" Your orc's father would be like 50+.
– Theik
1 hour ago
@Theik I had not considered that. Let's just assume that orcs in my universe have longer life spans. I'll have to make sure the group is aware of this sudden homebrew detail...
– NathanS
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
This is not an answer, but your initial premise has a bit of a flaw, that orc would be long dead unless you can somehow explain his unnaturally long lifespan. "The average orc seldom lived longer than 40 years, even if it managed to avoid violent death. It was unheard of for an orc to live longer than 45 years without magical aid" Your orc's father would be like 50+.
– Theik
1 hour ago
@Theik I had not considered that. Let's just assume that orcs in my universe have longer life spans. I'll have to make sure the group is aware of this sudden homebrew detail...
– NathanS
1 hour ago
This is not an answer, but your initial premise has a bit of a flaw, that orc would be long dead unless you can somehow explain his unnaturally long lifespan. "The average orc seldom lived longer than 40 years, even if it managed to avoid violent death. It was unheard of for an orc to live longer than 45 years without magical aid" Your orc's father would be like 50+.
– Theik
1 hour ago
This is not an answer, but your initial premise has a bit of a flaw, that orc would be long dead unless you can somehow explain his unnaturally long lifespan. "The average orc seldom lived longer than 40 years, even if it managed to avoid violent death. It was unheard of for an orc to live longer than 45 years without magical aid" Your orc's father would be like 50+.
– Theik
1 hour ago
@Theik I had not considered that. Let's just assume that orcs in my universe have longer life spans. I'll have to make sure the group is aware of this sudden homebrew detail...
– NathanS
1 hour ago
@Theik I had not considered that. Let's just assume that orcs in my universe have longer life spans. I'll have to make sure the group is aware of this sudden homebrew detail...
– NathanS
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
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1
down vote
Just fake it
Warning: This is a frame challenge.
You're asking for an epic one-on-one duel for a player, and it has to feel suitably epic. Sadly enough, CR ratings are only a rough estimate and one-on-one duels in D&D are extremely 'swingy'.
Two misses on the players end or a crit on the monster's will likely make the encounter completely impossible. On the flip side, if the player crits once, they may very well cut the encounter time in half. If they don't crit, it'll likely result in an extremely long drawn out fight of "I hit, you hit, I hit, you hit." It's not going to be suitably epic, it's just going to be boring for everybody involved.
Instead, for such a one-on-one encounter, it's far easier if you just fake it. Write down the half-orcs HP and AC beforehand, and scribble down some fake to-hit and damage rolls, depending on how long you want the fight to be. Throw in a crit in there, to make things "really scary", and add some misses as well. At the end of list of fake rolls, the player should end up with 1 or 2 hp, for that "just made it!" feeling. Focus on describing the action narratively and just throw fake dice behind your screen, the players don't need to know.
After the player is near death, just have the Orc either go down, or flee after the next hit, and make him miss if the player ends up missing. Alternatively, have the Orc try to persuade the character to join him, so they can rule as father and son. (Noooooo!)
In conclusion, is it possible to make a CR monster that will provide an epic encounter for a single player? Possibly, maybe. Is it going to work? Nope, because the dice are going to go "welp, this encounter is now over" and everybody is going to feel disatisfied with the fight.
I've done this before with an epic devil fight, my players still talk about that fight and how the paladin managed to banish it with his last breath before collapsing exhausted, and they never needed to know that I was 'cheating' it.
answered 47 mins ago
Theik
9,2863656
While a like this approach and have used it myself it does take a certain kind of DM, running a certain kind of campaign to pull it off. If you never use a screen or fudge dices rolls I wouldn't suggest starting it for this fight or your players might feel cheated.
– linksassin
30 mins ago
I hadn't thought of this, I like this frame challenge. Incidentally, ending up with 1 HP will be really easy given that the PC is a half-orc with Relentless Endurance, so I could even just roll real damage and when he has to use Relentless Endurance to stay at 1 HP, that's when I can have the orc go down or flee or whatever... (I guess I'd describe the orc getting wearier parallel with the PC's health % so that it seems plausible that he'd go down on the next hit)
– NathanS
21 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Add Class Levels
Unfortunately 5e does not have set rules on this unlike previous editions. However my favourite way to beef up a monster manual enemy is to add class levels.
3 levels of Fighter (Champion) would grant Great Weapon Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge and Improved critical. Barbarian would also suit but flavour to your preference.
I would increase proficiency bonus to the +3 or even +4 to be the equivalent to an npc character of a similar level.
Give magic items
As you suggested some higher level magic items would definitely help. A +1 weapon would close the gap on what I see as the war chiefs biggest weakness against a Paladin. Low attack bonus will struggle to hit the paladin regularly. Assuming he has an AC of 20 or above as most lvl 8 paladins would.
Improve Base Stats
You could choose to increase the War Chiefs base stats. A strength of 20 or even higher would make him feel like an epic enemy.
Give Feats
Add a feat or two to increase his combat ability without modifying the base class. Great Weapon Master would be a great choice.
Alternatively
Don't use the War Chief and just make a npc based on half-orc racial abilities (Player's Handbook) reskined as a full orc or the Orc racial traits from Volo's Guide to Monsters. This is my normal approach for BBEG or significant enemies. I find class levels allow you to multiclass to get exactly the feel for the class you want. Barbarian 2/Fighter 6 would feel like an angry orc war chief to me.
Monster Advancement Rules: these are from the wrong edition since there are no official rules for 5e, but I find they translate fairly well with a little work.
answered 1 hour ago
linksassin
889218
1
as an alternative to the alternative you can build a Orc NPC by using the orc race traits in Volo's guide to monsters
– Dinomaster
50 mins ago
@Dinomaster I don't have a copy of Volo's so I didn't realise they existed, I'll update my answer to include this.
– linksassin
46 mins ago
For reference: dnd5e.wikia.com/wiki/Orc
– Dinomaster
45 mins ago
1
@Dinomaster dnd5e.wikia is not an official source and we shouldn't be using it as a reference.
– linksassin
36 mins ago
1
I did not know. Thanks for the pointer
– Dinomaster
16 mins ago
 |Â
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1
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Another, frame challenge:
The encounter tables are designed for parties of three to five characters. A CR4 monster is a challenge for 4 fourth level characters. The DMG says to adjust for smaller parties.
The preceding guidelines assume that you have a party consisting of three to five adventurers.If the party contains fewer than three characters, apply the next highest multiplier on the Encounter multipliers table. (DMG p.83)
The XP for an Orc War Chief is 1,100 x 1.5 = 1,650. This is well above the Hard threshold for a level 8 character. Note: The War Chief also has 11 hit dice. For a solo battle, this might push it into the deadly range.
answered 18 mins ago
ravery
5,6881843
That's a good point; at the very least, aiming for CR 5 rather than 6 might be more appropriate (the XP earned is irrelevant since I'm using milestone levelling, so I don't need to worry about that side of things, at least). I think I'll still bump the stats up slightly (HP at least) just because I know what paladins are like with their nova damage...
– NathanS
12 mins ago
@NathanS - The XP calc is solely for determining encounter difficulty in accordance with p. 82 of the DMG. Rolling his HP instead of taking the average may bump his HP accordingly.
– ravery
8 mins ago
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
1
down vote
Just fake it
Warning: This is a frame challenge.
You're asking for an epic one-on-one duel for a player, and it has to feel suitably epic. Sadly enough, CR ratings are only a rough estimate and one-on-one duels in D&D are extremely 'swingy'.
Two misses on the players end or a crit on the monster's will likely make the encounter completely impossible. On the flip side, if the player crits once, they may very well cut the encounter time in half. If they don't crit, it'll likely result in an extremely long drawn out fight of "I hit, you hit, I hit, you hit." It's not going to be suitably epic, it's just going to be boring for everybody involved.
Instead, for such a one-on-one encounter, it's far easier if you just fake it. Write down the half-orcs HP and AC beforehand, and scribble down some fake to-hit and damage rolls, depending on how long you want the fight to be. Throw in a crit in there, to make things "really scary", and add some misses as well. At the end of list of fake rolls, the player should end up with 1 or 2 hp, for that "just made it!" feeling. Focus on describing the action narratively and just throw fake dice behind your screen, the players don't need to know.
After the player is near death, just have the Orc either go down, or flee after the next hit, and make him miss if the player ends up missing. Alternatively, have the Orc try to persuade the character to join him, so they can rule as father and son. (Noooooo!)
In conclusion, is it possible to make a CR monster that will provide an epic encounter for a single player? Possibly, maybe. Is it going to work? Nope, because the dice are going to go "welp, this encounter is now over" and everybody is going to feel disatisfied with the fight.
I've done this before with an epic devil fight, my players still talk about that fight and how the paladin managed to banish it with his last breath before collapsing exhausted, and they never needed to know that I was 'cheating' it.
answered 47 mins ago
Theik
9,2863656
While a like this approach and have used it myself it does take a certain kind of DM, running a certain kind of campaign to pull it off. If you never use a screen or fudge dices rolls I wouldn't suggest starting it for this fight or your players might feel cheated.
– linksassin
30 mins ago
I hadn't thought of this, I like this frame challenge. Incidentally, ending up with 1 HP will be really easy given that the PC is a half-orc with Relentless Endurance, so I could even just roll real damage and when he has to use Relentless Endurance to stay at 1 HP, that's when I can have the orc go down or flee or whatever... (I guess I'd describe the orc getting wearier parallel with the PC's health % so that it seems plausible that he'd go down on the next hit)
– NathanS
21 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Just fake it
Warning: This is a frame challenge.
You're asking for an epic one-on-one duel for a player, and it has to feel suitably epic. Sadly enough, CR ratings are only a rough estimate and one-on-one duels in D&D are extremely 'swingy'.
Two misses on the players end or a crit on the monster's will likely make the encounter completely impossible. On the flip side, if the player crits once, they may very well cut the encounter time in half. If they don't crit, it'll likely result in an extremely long drawn out fight of "I hit, you hit, I hit, you hit." It's not going to be suitably epic, it's just going to be boring for everybody involved.
Instead, for such a one-on-one encounter, it's far easier if you just fake it. Write down the half-orcs HP and AC beforehand, and scribble down some fake to-hit and damage rolls, depending on how long you want the fight to be. Throw in a crit in there, to make things "really scary", and add some misses as well. At the end of list of fake rolls, the player should end up with 1 or 2 hp, for that "just made it!" feeling. Focus on describing the action narratively and just throw fake dice behind your screen, the players don't need to know.
After the player is near death, just have the Orc either go down, or flee after the next hit, and make him miss if the player ends up missing. Alternatively, have the Orc try to persuade the character to join him, so they can rule as father and son. (Noooooo!)
In conclusion, is it possible to make a CR monster that will provide an epic encounter for a single player? Possibly, maybe. Is it going to work? Nope, because the dice are going to go "welp, this encounter is now over" and everybody is going to feel disatisfied with the fight.
I've done this before with an epic devil fight, my players still talk about that fight and how the paladin managed to banish it with his last breath before collapsing exhausted, and they never needed to know that I was 'cheating' it.
answered 47 mins ago
Theik
9,2863656
While a like this approach and have used it myself it does take a certain kind of DM, running a certain kind of campaign to pull it off. If you never use a screen or fudge dices rolls I wouldn't suggest starting it for this fight or your players might feel cheated.
– linksassin
30 mins ago
I hadn't thought of this, I like this frame challenge. Incidentally, ending up with 1 HP will be really easy given that the PC is a half-orc with Relentless Endurance, so I could even just roll real damage and when he has to use Relentless Endurance to stay at 1 HP, that's when I can have the orc go down or flee or whatever... (I guess I'd describe the orc getting wearier parallel with the PC's health % so that it seems plausible that he'd go down on the next hit)
– NathanS
21 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Just fake it
Warning: This is a frame challenge.
You're asking for an epic one-on-one duel for a player, and it has to feel suitably epic. Sadly enough, CR ratings are only a rough estimate and one-on-one duels in D&D are extremely 'swingy'.
Two misses on the players end or a crit on the monster's will likely make the encounter completely impossible. On the flip side, if the player crits once, they may very well cut the encounter time in half. If they don't crit, it'll likely result in an extremely long drawn out fight of "I hit, you hit, I hit, you hit." It's not going to be suitably epic, it's just going to be boring for everybody involved.
Instead, for such a one-on-one encounter, it's far easier if you just fake it. Write down the half-orcs HP and AC beforehand, and scribble down some fake to-hit and damage rolls, depending on how long you want the fight to be. Throw in a crit in there, to make things "really scary", and add some misses as well. At the end of list of fake rolls, the player should end up with 1 or 2 hp, for that "just made it!" feeling. Focus on describing the action narratively and just throw fake dice behind your screen, the players don't need to know.
After the player is near death, just have the Orc either go down, or flee after the next hit, and make him miss if the player ends up missing. Alternatively, have the Orc try to persuade the character to join him, so they can rule as father and son. (Noooooo!)
In conclusion, is it possible to make a CR monster that will provide an epic encounter for a single player? Possibly, maybe. Is it going to work? Nope, because the dice are going to go "welp, this encounter is now over" and everybody is going to feel disatisfied with the fight.
I've done this before with an epic devil fight, my players still talk about that fight and how the paladin managed to banish it with his last breath before collapsing exhausted, and they never needed to know that I was 'cheating' it.
answered 47 mins ago
Theik
9,2863656
Just fake it
Warning: This is a frame challenge.
You're asking for an epic one-on-one duel for a player, and it has to feel suitably epic. Sadly enough, CR ratings are only a rough estimate and one-on-one duels in D&D are extremely 'swingy'.
Two misses on the players end or a crit on the monster's will likely make the encounter completely impossible. On the flip side, if the player crits once, they may very well cut the encounter time in half. If they don't crit, it'll likely result in an extremely long drawn out fight of "I hit, you hit, I hit, you hit." It's not going to be suitably epic, it's just going to be boring for everybody involved.
Instead, for such a one-on-one encounter, it's far easier if you just fake it. Write down the half-orcs HP and AC beforehand, and scribble down some fake to-hit and damage rolls, depending on how long you want the fight to be. Throw in a crit in there, to make things "really scary", and add some misses as well. At the end of list of fake rolls, the player should end up with 1 or 2 hp, for that "just made it!" feeling. Focus on describing the action narratively and just throw fake dice behind your screen, the players don't need to know.
After the player is near death, just have the Orc either go down, or flee after the next hit, and make him miss if the player ends up missing. Alternatively, have the Orc try to persuade the character to join him, so they can rule as father and son. (Noooooo!)
In conclusion, is it possible to make a CR monster that will provide an epic encounter for a single player? Possibly, maybe. Is it going to work? Nope, because the dice are going to go "welp, this encounter is now over" and everybody is going to feel disatisfied with the fight.
I've done this before with an epic devil fight, my players still talk about that fight and how the paladin managed to banish it with his last breath before collapsing exhausted, and they never needed to know that I was 'cheating' it.
answered 47 mins ago
Theik
9,2863656
answered 47 mins ago
Theik
9,2863656
answered 47 mins ago
Theik
9,2863656
answered 47 mins ago
Theik
9,2863656
9,2863656
While a like this approach and have used it myself it does take a certain kind of DM, running a certain kind of campaign to pull it off. If you never use a screen or fudge dices rolls I wouldn't suggest starting it for this fight or your players might feel cheated.
– linksassin
30 mins ago
I hadn't thought of this, I like this frame challenge. Incidentally, ending up with 1 HP will be really easy given that the PC is a half-orc with Relentless Endurance, so I could even just roll real damage and when he has to use Relentless Endurance to stay at 1 HP, that's when I can have the orc go down or flee or whatever... (I guess I'd describe the orc getting wearier parallel with the PC's health % so that it seems plausible that he'd go down on the next hit)
– NathanS
21 mins ago
add a comment |Â
While a like this approach and have used it myself it does take a certain kind of DM, running a certain kind of campaign to pull it off. If you never use a screen or fudge dices rolls I wouldn't suggest starting it for this fight or your players might feel cheated.
– linksassin
30 mins ago
I hadn't thought of this, I like this frame challenge. Incidentally, ending up with 1 HP will be really easy given that the PC is a half-orc with Relentless Endurance, so I could even just roll real damage and when he has to use Relentless Endurance to stay at 1 HP, that's when I can have the orc go down or flee or whatever... (I guess I'd describe the orc getting wearier parallel with the PC's health % so that it seems plausible that he'd go down on the next hit)
– NathanS
21 mins ago
While a like this approach and have used it myself it does take a certain kind of DM, running a certain kind of campaign to pull it off. If you never use a screen or fudge dices rolls I wouldn't suggest starting it for this fight or your players might feel cheated.
– linksassin
30 mins ago
While a like this approach and have used it myself it does take a certain kind of DM, running a certain kind of campaign to pull it off. If you never use a screen or fudge dices rolls I wouldn't suggest starting it for this fight or your players might feel cheated.
– linksassin
30 mins ago
I hadn't thought of this, I like this frame challenge. Incidentally, ending up with 1 HP will be really easy given that the PC is a half-orc with Relentless Endurance, so I could even just roll real damage and when he has to use Relentless Endurance to stay at 1 HP, that's when I can have the orc go down or flee or whatever... (I guess I'd describe the orc getting wearier parallel with the PC's health % so that it seems plausible that he'd go down on the next hit)
– NathanS
21 mins ago
I hadn't thought of this, I like this frame challenge. Incidentally, ending up with 1 HP will be really easy given that the PC is a half-orc with Relentless Endurance, so I could even just roll real damage and when he has to use Relentless Endurance to stay at 1 HP, that's when I can have the orc go down or flee or whatever... (I guess I'd describe the orc getting wearier parallel with the PC's health % so that it seems plausible that he'd go down on the next hit)
– NathanS
21 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Add Class Levels
Unfortunately 5e does not have set rules on this unlike previous editions. However my favourite way to beef up a monster manual enemy is to add class levels.
3 levels of Fighter (Champion) would grant Great Weapon Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge and Improved critical. Barbarian would also suit but flavour to your preference.
I would increase proficiency bonus to the +3 or even +4 to be the equivalent to an npc character of a similar level.
Give magic items
As you suggested some higher level magic items would definitely help. A +1 weapon would close the gap on what I see as the war chiefs biggest weakness against a Paladin. Low attack bonus will struggle to hit the paladin regularly. Assuming he has an AC of 20 or above as most lvl 8 paladins would.
Improve Base Stats
You could choose to increase the War Chiefs base stats. A strength of 20 or even higher would make him feel like an epic enemy.
Give Feats
Add a feat or two to increase his combat ability without modifying the base class. Great Weapon Master would be a great choice.
Alternatively
Don't use the War Chief and just make a npc based on half-orc racial abilities (Player's Handbook) reskined as a full orc or the Orc racial traits from Volo's Guide to Monsters. This is my normal approach for BBEG or significant enemies. I find class levels allow you to multiclass to get exactly the feel for the class you want. Barbarian 2/Fighter 6 would feel like an angry orc war chief to me.
Monster Advancement Rules: these are from the wrong edition since there are no official rules for 5e, but I find they translate fairly well with a little work.
answered 1 hour ago
linksassin
889218
1
as an alternative to the alternative you can build a Orc NPC by using the orc race traits in Volo's guide to monsters
– Dinomaster
50 mins ago
@Dinomaster I don't have a copy of Volo's so I didn't realise they existed, I'll update my answer to include this.
– linksassin
46 mins ago
For reference: dnd5e.wikia.com/wiki/Orc
– Dinomaster
45 mins ago
1
@Dinomaster dnd5e.wikia is not an official source and we shouldn't be using it as a reference.
– linksassin
36 mins ago
1
I did not know. Thanks for the pointer
– Dinomaster
16 mins ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
1
down vote
Add Class Levels
Unfortunately 5e does not have set rules on this unlike previous editions. However my favourite way to beef up a monster manual enemy is to add class levels.
3 levels of Fighter (Champion) would grant Great Weapon Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge and Improved critical. Barbarian would also suit but flavour to your preference.
I would increase proficiency bonus to the +3 or even +4 to be the equivalent to an npc character of a similar level.
Give magic items
As you suggested some higher level magic items would definitely help. A +1 weapon would close the gap on what I see as the war chiefs biggest weakness against a Paladin. Low attack bonus will struggle to hit the paladin regularly. Assuming he has an AC of 20 or above as most lvl 8 paladins would.
Improve Base Stats
You could choose to increase the War Chiefs base stats. A strength of 20 or even higher would make him feel like an epic enemy.
Give Feats
Add a feat or two to increase his combat ability without modifying the base class. Great Weapon Master would be a great choice.
Alternatively
Don't use the War Chief and just make a npc based on half-orc racial abilities (Player's Handbook) reskined as a full orc or the Orc racial traits from Volo's Guide to Monsters. This is my normal approach for BBEG or significant enemies. I find class levels allow you to multiclass to get exactly the feel for the class you want. Barbarian 2/Fighter 6 would feel like an angry orc war chief to me.
Monster Advancement Rules: these are from the wrong edition since there are no official rules for 5e, but I find they translate fairly well with a little work.
answered 1 hour ago
linksassin
889218
1
as an alternative to the alternative you can build a Orc NPC by using the orc race traits in Volo's guide to monsters
– Dinomaster
50 mins ago
@Dinomaster I don't have a copy of Volo's so I didn't realise they existed, I'll update my answer to include this.
– linksassin
46 mins ago
For reference: dnd5e.wikia.com/wiki/Orc
– Dinomaster
45 mins ago
1
@Dinomaster dnd5e.wikia is not an official source and we shouldn't be using it as a reference.
– linksassin
36 mins ago
1
I did not know. Thanks for the pointer
– Dinomaster
16 mins ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Add Class Levels
Unfortunately 5e does not have set rules on this unlike previous editions. However my favourite way to beef up a monster manual enemy is to add class levels.
3 levels of Fighter (Champion) would grant Great Weapon Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge and Improved critical. Barbarian would also suit but flavour to your preference.
I would increase proficiency bonus to the +3 or even +4 to be the equivalent to an npc character of a similar level.
Give magic items
As you suggested some higher level magic items would definitely help. A +1 weapon would close the gap on what I see as the war chiefs biggest weakness against a Paladin. Low attack bonus will struggle to hit the paladin regularly. Assuming he has an AC of 20 or above as most lvl 8 paladins would.
Improve Base Stats
You could choose to increase the War Chiefs base stats. A strength of 20 or even higher would make him feel like an epic enemy.
Give Feats
Add a feat or two to increase his combat ability without modifying the base class. Great Weapon Master would be a great choice.
Alternatively
Don't use the War Chief and just make a npc based on half-orc racial abilities (Player's Handbook) reskined as a full orc or the Orc racial traits from Volo's Guide to Monsters. This is my normal approach for BBEG or significant enemies. I find class levels allow you to multiclass to get exactly the feel for the class you want. Barbarian 2/Fighter 6 would feel like an angry orc war chief to me.
Monster Advancement Rules: these are from the wrong edition since there are no official rules for 5e, but I find they translate fairly well with a little work.
answered 1 hour ago
linksassin
889218
Add Class Levels
Unfortunately 5e does not have set rules on this unlike previous editions. However my favourite way to beef up a monster manual enemy is to add class levels.
3 levels of Fighter (Champion) would grant Great Weapon Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge and Improved critical. Barbarian would also suit but flavour to your preference.
I would increase proficiency bonus to the +3 or even +4 to be the equivalent to an npc character of a similar level.
Give magic items
As you suggested some higher level magic items would definitely help. A +1 weapon would close the gap on what I see as the war chiefs biggest weakness against a Paladin. Low attack bonus will struggle to hit the paladin regularly. Assuming he has an AC of 20 or above as most lvl 8 paladins would.
Improve Base Stats
You could choose to increase the War Chiefs base stats. A strength of 20 or even higher would make him feel like an epic enemy.
Give Feats
Add a feat or two to increase his combat ability without modifying the base class. Great Weapon Master would be a great choice.
Alternatively
Don't use the War Chief and just make a npc based on half-orc racial abilities (Player's Handbook) reskined as a full orc or the Orc racial traits from Volo's Guide to Monsters. This is my normal approach for BBEG or significant enemies. I find class levels allow you to multiclass to get exactly the feel for the class you want. Barbarian 2/Fighter 6 would feel like an angry orc war chief to me.
Monster Advancement Rules: these are from the wrong edition since there are no official rules for 5e, but I find they translate fairly well with a little work.
answered 1 hour ago
linksassin
889218
edited 45 mins ago
answered 1 hour ago
linksassin
889218
answered 1 hour ago
linksassin
889218
answered 1 hour ago
linksassin
889218
889218
1
as an alternative to the alternative you can build a Orc NPC by using the orc race traits in Volo's guide to monsters
– Dinomaster
50 mins ago
@Dinomaster I don't have a copy of Volo's so I didn't realise they existed, I'll update my answer to include this.
– linksassin
46 mins ago
For reference: dnd5e.wikia.com/wiki/Orc
– Dinomaster
45 mins ago
1
@Dinomaster dnd5e.wikia is not an official source and we shouldn't be using it as a reference.
– linksassin
36 mins ago
1
I did not know. Thanks for the pointer
– Dinomaster
16 mins ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
1
as an alternative to the alternative you can build a Orc NPC by using the orc race traits in Volo's guide to monsters
– Dinomaster
50 mins ago
@Dinomaster I don't have a copy of Volo's so I didn't realise they existed, I'll update my answer to include this.
– linksassin
46 mins ago
For reference: dnd5e.wikia.com/wiki/Orc
– Dinomaster
45 mins ago
1
@Dinomaster dnd5e.wikia is not an official source and we shouldn't be using it as a reference.
– linksassin
36 mins ago
1
I did not know. Thanks for the pointer
– Dinomaster
16 mins ago
1
1
as an alternative to the alternative you can build a Orc NPC by using the orc race traits in Volo's guide to monsters
– Dinomaster
50 mins ago
as an alternative to the alternative you can build a Orc NPC by using the orc race traits in Volo's guide to monsters
– Dinomaster
50 mins ago
@Dinomaster I don't have a copy of Volo's so I didn't realise they existed, I'll update my answer to include this.
– linksassin
46 mins ago
@Dinomaster I don't have a copy of Volo's so I didn't realise they existed, I'll update my answer to include this.
– linksassin
46 mins ago
For reference: dnd5e.wikia.com/wiki/Orc
– Dinomaster
45 mins ago
For reference: dnd5e.wikia.com/wiki/Orc
– Dinomaster
45 mins ago
1
1
@Dinomaster dnd5e.wikia is not an official source and we shouldn't be using it as a reference.
– linksassin
36 mins ago
@Dinomaster dnd5e.wikia is not an official source and we shouldn't be using it as a reference.
– linksassin
36 mins ago
1
1
I did not know. Thanks for the pointer
– Dinomaster
16 mins ago
I did not know. Thanks for the pointer
– Dinomaster
16 mins ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
1
down vote
Another, frame challenge:
The encounter tables are designed for parties of three to five characters. A CR4 monster is a challenge for 4 fourth level characters. The DMG says to adjust for smaller parties.
The preceding guidelines assume that you have a party consisting of three to five adventurers.If the party contains fewer than three characters, apply the next highest multiplier on the Encounter multipliers table. (DMG p.83)
The XP for an Orc War Chief is 1,100 x 1.5 = 1,650. This is well above the Hard threshold for a level 8 character. Note: The War Chief also has 11 hit dice. For a solo battle, this might push it into the deadly range.
answered 18 mins ago
ravery
5,6881843
That's a good point; at the very least, aiming for CR 5 rather than 6 might be more appropriate (the XP earned is irrelevant since I'm using milestone levelling, so I don't need to worry about that side of things, at least). I think I'll still bump the stats up slightly (HP at least) just because I know what paladins are like with their nova damage...
– NathanS
12 mins ago
@NathanS - The XP calc is solely for determining encounter difficulty in accordance with p. 82 of the DMG. Rolling his HP instead of taking the average may bump his HP accordingly.
– ravery
8 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Another, frame challenge:
The encounter tables are designed for parties of three to five characters. A CR4 monster is a challenge for 4 fourth level characters. The DMG says to adjust for smaller parties.
The preceding guidelines assume that you have a party consisting of three to five adventurers.If the party contains fewer than three characters, apply the next highest multiplier on the Encounter multipliers table. (DMG p.83)
The XP for an Orc War Chief is 1,100 x 1.5 = 1,650. This is well above the Hard threshold for a level 8 character. Note: The War Chief also has 11 hit dice. For a solo battle, this might push it into the deadly range.
answered 18 mins ago
ravery
5,6881843
That's a good point; at the very least, aiming for CR 5 rather than 6 might be more appropriate (the XP earned is irrelevant since I'm using milestone levelling, so I don't need to worry about that side of things, at least). I think I'll still bump the stats up slightly (HP at least) just because I know what paladins are like with their nova damage...
– NathanS
12 mins ago
@NathanS - The XP calc is solely for determining encounter difficulty in accordance with p. 82 of the DMG. Rolling his HP instead of taking the average may bump his HP accordingly.
– ravery
8 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Another, frame challenge:
The encounter tables are designed for parties of three to five characters. A CR4 monster is a challenge for 4 fourth level characters. The DMG says to adjust for smaller parties.
The preceding guidelines assume that you have a party consisting of three to five adventurers.If the party contains fewer than three characters, apply the next highest multiplier on the Encounter multipliers table. (DMG p.83)
The XP for an Orc War Chief is 1,100 x 1.5 = 1,650. This is well above the Hard threshold for a level 8 character. Note: The War Chief also has 11 hit dice. For a solo battle, this might push it into the deadly range.
answered 18 mins ago
ravery
5,6881843
Another, frame challenge:
The encounter tables are designed for parties of three to five characters. A CR4 monster is a challenge for 4 fourth level characters. The DMG says to adjust for smaller parties.
The preceding guidelines assume that you have a party consisting of three to five adventurers.If the party contains fewer than three characters, apply the next highest multiplier on the Encounter multipliers table. (DMG p.83)
The XP for an Orc War Chief is 1,100 x 1.5 = 1,650. This is well above the Hard threshold for a level 8 character. Note: The War Chief also has 11 hit dice. For a solo battle, this might push it into the deadly range.
answered 18 mins ago
ravery
5,6881843
edited 13 mins ago
answered 18 mins ago
ravery
5,6881843
answered 18 mins ago
ravery
5,6881843
answered 18 mins ago
ravery
5,6881843
5,6881843
That's a good point; at the very least, aiming for CR 5 rather than 6 might be more appropriate (the XP earned is irrelevant since I'm using milestone levelling, so I don't need to worry about that side of things, at least). I think I'll still bump the stats up slightly (HP at least) just because I know what paladins are like with their nova damage...
– NathanS
12 mins ago
@NathanS - The XP calc is solely for determining encounter difficulty in accordance with p. 82 of the DMG. Rolling his HP instead of taking the average may bump his HP accordingly.
– ravery
8 mins ago
add a comment |Â
That's a good point; at the very least, aiming for CR 5 rather than 6 might be more appropriate (the XP earned is irrelevant since I'm using milestone levelling, so I don't need to worry about that side of things, at least). I think I'll still bump the stats up slightly (HP at least) just because I know what paladins are like with their nova damage...
– NathanS
12 mins ago
@NathanS - The XP calc is solely for determining encounter difficulty in accordance with p. 82 of the DMG. Rolling his HP instead of taking the average may bump his HP accordingly.
– ravery
8 mins ago
That's a good point; at the very least, aiming for CR 5 rather than 6 might be more appropriate (the XP earned is irrelevant since I'm using milestone levelling, so I don't need to worry about that side of things, at least). I think I'll still bump the stats up slightly (HP at least) just because I know what paladins are like with their nova damage...
– NathanS
12 mins ago
That's a good point; at the very least, aiming for CR 5 rather than 6 might be more appropriate (the XP earned is irrelevant since I'm using milestone levelling, so I don't need to worry about that side of things, at least). I think I'll still bump the stats up slightly (HP at least) just because I know what paladins are like with their nova damage...
– NathanS
12 mins ago
@NathanS - The XP calc is solely for determining encounter difficulty in accordance with p. 82 of the DMG. Rolling his HP instead of taking the average may bump his HP accordingly.
– ravery
8 mins ago
@NathanS - The XP calc is solely for determining encounter difficulty in accordance with p. 82 of the DMG. Rolling his HP instead of taking the average may bump his HP accordingly.
– ravery
8 mins ago
add a comment |Â
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This is not an answer, but your initial premise has a bit of a flaw, that orc would be long dead unless you can somehow explain his unnaturally long lifespan. "The average orc seldom lived longer than 40 years, even if it managed to avoid violent death. It was unheard of for an orc to live longer than 45 years without magical aid" Your orc's father would be like 50+.
– Theik
1 hour ago
@Theik I had not considered that. Let's just assume that orcs in my universe have longer life spans. I'll have to make sure the group is aware of this sudden homebrew detail...
– NathanS
1 hour ago