What is the origin of royal names such as Charles?

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I found a lot of historical linguistic evidence for Charles to come from German Karl. But nowhere is the name explained comparitively. What formed the word Karl? I am interested in the origins beyond written evidence and I am aware that there is no evidence. However there is other uses of divine titles that seem to closely match Charles.



“‚Kyrie eleison‘ war in vorchristlicher Zeit ein gebräuchlicher Huldigungsruf für Götter und Herrscher.” Wikipedia
That translates to: "In pre-Christian times 'Kyrie eleison' was a common cry/proclamation of homage to gods and rulers."



So could Kyrie eleison have changed overtime to Charles/Karl/Karel/Carlos, very common royalty names for later kings and does anyone know of more such examples? And if you would be so kind to add to your answers also links or literature addressing meanings of names?



Additional. Notes in relation to the comments below:
-Names have meanings. This is not a misconception. You could ask a question about this before commenting incorrect assumptions, with all respect. (Examples: Ruben meaning see a son, Mark meaning Mars, Gemini (Twin constellation) originating from Cheimona (Greek meaning Winter thus Winter Twin Stars.
-George was mentioned too as a king name. It seems cognate to Greek ισχυρός (meaning strong/mighty)



Additional comments on the answers. First of all Thank you for your input. The information given in the answers as mentioned in the body of the question can be found easily. Consider what the relation is between the meanings ‘man’ and ‘lord’ to practically all Orthodox Catholic nations in Eastern Europe using Karl-like words for king, which I doubt cane from Charlesmagne, but more likely from Kyrie Eleison. Why? Because the same widespread use of Caesar (emperor) in German Kaiser and Russian Tsar show a relation to a Roman emperor Caesar who must have been called Kyrie Eleison too. Consider ‘duke’ from Latin ‘dux’ (leader).






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  • 3




    It seems to me that the question is based on the misperception that names have a coherent origin. It also based on the groundless rejection of an narrative.
    – Mark C. Wallace♦
    18 hours ago







  • 7




    It seems to me that the question is based on a misperception that Charles is somehow a "kingly" name, rather than there just having happened to have been a couple of kings (and LOTS of commoners :-)) with the name. After all, if you look at the British kings, there've been lots more Henrys and Georges that Charleses, and more Louises in France &c.
    – jamesqf
    18 hours ago










  • @jamesqf Or turn that around: In a crossword puzzle "Charles" would be one correct solution for "name of kings, X letters" (X depending on language), as the name was very popular in the nobility, with France and Germany having o resort to high numbers, but topped by Sweden, having Carl XVI
    – LangLangC
    17 hours ago










  • @LangLangC, Thanks for the corrections.
    – Ajagar
    16 hours ago






  • 2




    From reading your question, you seem to think that "Kyrie eleison" was something like alternate title for rulers. In fact, it is a greek phrase meaning "God have mercy". I highly doubt that the phrase was widely used in pre-Christian times anywhere outside of Greece (and maybe some parts of Roman Empire). Can you provide the source for that German quote?
    – Danila Smirnov
    8 hours ago














up vote
2
down vote

favorite
1












I found a lot of historical linguistic evidence for Charles to come from German Karl. But nowhere is the name explained comparitively. What formed the word Karl? I am interested in the origins beyond written evidence and I am aware that there is no evidence. However there is other uses of divine titles that seem to closely match Charles.



“‚Kyrie eleison‘ war in vorchristlicher Zeit ein gebräuchlicher Huldigungsruf für Götter und Herrscher.” Wikipedia
That translates to: "In pre-Christian times 'Kyrie eleison' was a common cry/proclamation of homage to gods and rulers."



So could Kyrie eleison have changed overtime to Charles/Karl/Karel/Carlos, very common royalty names for later kings and does anyone know of more such examples? And if you would be so kind to add to your answers also links or literature addressing meanings of names?



Additional. Notes in relation to the comments below:
-Names have meanings. This is not a misconception. You could ask a question about this before commenting incorrect assumptions, with all respect. (Examples: Ruben meaning see a son, Mark meaning Mars, Gemini (Twin constellation) originating from Cheimona (Greek meaning Winter thus Winter Twin Stars.
-George was mentioned too as a king name. It seems cognate to Greek ισχυρός (meaning strong/mighty)



Additional comments on the answers. First of all Thank you for your input. The information given in the answers as mentioned in the body of the question can be found easily. Consider what the relation is between the meanings ‘man’ and ‘lord’ to practically all Orthodox Catholic nations in Eastern Europe using Karl-like words for king, which I doubt cane from Charlesmagne, but more likely from Kyrie Eleison. Why? Because the same widespread use of Caesar (emperor) in German Kaiser and Russian Tsar show a relation to a Roman emperor Caesar who must have been called Kyrie Eleison too. Consider ‘duke’ from Latin ‘dux’ (leader).






etymology names







share|improve this question















migrated from linguistics.stackexchange.com yesterday


This question came from our site for professional linguists and others with an interest in linguistic research and theory.










  • 3




    It seems to me that the question is based on the misperception that names have a coherent origin. It also based on the groundless rejection of an narrative.
    – Mark C. Wallace♦
    18 hours ago







  • 7




    It seems to me that the question is based on a misperception that Charles is somehow a "kingly" name, rather than there just having happened to have been a couple of kings (and LOTS of commoners :-)) with the name. After all, if you look at the British kings, there've been lots more Henrys and Georges that Charleses, and more Louises in France &c.
    – jamesqf
    18 hours ago










  • @jamesqf Or turn that around: In a crossword puzzle "Charles" would be one correct solution for "name of kings, X letters" (X depending on language), as the name was very popular in the nobility, with France and Germany having o resort to high numbers, but topped by Sweden, having Carl XVI
    – LangLangC
    17 hours ago










  • @LangLangC, Thanks for the corrections.
    – Ajagar
    16 hours ago






  • 2




    From reading your question, you seem to think that "Kyrie eleison" was something like alternate title for rulers. In fact, it is a greek phrase meaning "God have mercy". I highly doubt that the phrase was widely used in pre-Christian times anywhere outside of Greece (and maybe some parts of Roman Empire). Can you provide the source for that German quote?
    – Danila Smirnov
    8 hours ago












up vote
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up vote
2
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1





I found a lot of historical linguistic evidence for Charles to come from German Karl. But nowhere is the name explained comparitively. What formed the word Karl? I am interested in the origins beyond written evidence and I am aware that there is no evidence. However there is other uses of divine titles that seem to closely match Charles.



“‚Kyrie eleison‘ war in vorchristlicher Zeit ein gebräuchlicher Huldigungsruf für Götter und Herrscher.” Wikipedia
That translates to: "In pre-Christian times 'Kyrie eleison' was a common cry/proclamation of homage to gods and rulers."



So could Kyrie eleison have changed overtime to Charles/Karl/Karel/Carlos, very common royalty names for later kings and does anyone know of more such examples? And if you would be so kind to add to your answers also links or literature addressing meanings of names?



Additional. Notes in relation to the comments below:
-Names have meanings. This is not a misconception. You could ask a question about this before commenting incorrect assumptions, with all respect. (Examples: Ruben meaning see a son, Mark meaning Mars, Gemini (Twin constellation) originating from Cheimona (Greek meaning Winter thus Winter Twin Stars.
-George was mentioned too as a king name. It seems cognate to Greek ισχυρός (meaning strong/mighty)



Additional comments on the answers. First of all Thank you for your input. The information given in the answers as mentioned in the body of the question can be found easily. Consider what the relation is between the meanings ‘man’ and ‘lord’ to practically all Orthodox Catholic nations in Eastern Europe using Karl-like words for king, which I doubt cane from Charlesmagne, but more likely from Kyrie Eleison. Why? Because the same widespread use of Caesar (emperor) in German Kaiser and Russian Tsar show a relation to a Roman emperor Caesar who must have been called Kyrie Eleison too. Consider ‘duke’ from Latin ‘dux’ (leader).






etymology names







share|improve this question















I found a lot of historical linguistic evidence for Charles to come from German Karl. But nowhere is the name explained comparitively. What formed the word Karl? I am interested in the origins beyond written evidence and I am aware that there is no evidence. However there is other uses of divine titles that seem to closely match Charles.



“‚Kyrie eleison‘ war in vorchristlicher Zeit ein gebräuchlicher Huldigungsruf für Götter und Herrscher.” Wikipedia
That translates to: "In pre-Christian times 'Kyrie eleison' was a common cry/proclamation of homage to gods and rulers."



So could Kyrie eleison have changed overtime to Charles/Karl/Karel/Carlos, very common royalty names for later kings and does anyone know of more such examples? And if you would be so kind to add to your answers also links or literature addressing meanings of names?



Additional. Notes in relation to the comments below:
-Names have meanings. This is not a misconception. You could ask a question about this before commenting incorrect assumptions, with all respect. (Examples: Ruben meaning see a son, Mark meaning Mars, Gemini (Twin constellation) originating from Cheimona (Greek meaning Winter thus Winter Twin Stars.
-George was mentioned too as a king name. It seems cognate to Greek ισχυρός (meaning strong/mighty)



Additional comments on the answers. First of all Thank you for your input. The information given in the answers as mentioned in the body of the question can be found easily. Consider what the relation is between the meanings ‘man’ and ‘lord’ to practically all Orthodox Catholic nations in Eastern Europe using Karl-like words for king, which I doubt cane from Charlesmagne, but more likely from Kyrie Eleison. Why? Because the same widespread use of Caesar (emperor) in German Kaiser and Russian Tsar show a relation to a Roman emperor Caesar who must have been called Kyrie Eleison too. Consider ‘duke’ from Latin ‘dux’ (leader).






etymology names




etymology names






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













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edited 10 mins ago









Mark C. Wallace♦

22.8k871110




22.8k871110










asked yesterday









Ajagar

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migrated from linguistics.stackexchange.com yesterday


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migrated from linguistics.stackexchange.com yesterday


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  • 3




    It seems to me that the question is based on the misperception that names have a coherent origin. It also based on the groundless rejection of an narrative.
    – Mark C. Wallace♦
    18 hours ago







  • 7




    It seems to me that the question is based on a misperception that Charles is somehow a "kingly" name, rather than there just having happened to have been a couple of kings (and LOTS of commoners :-)) with the name. After all, if you look at the British kings, there've been lots more Henrys and Georges that Charleses, and more Louises in France &c.
    – jamesqf
    18 hours ago










  • @jamesqf Or turn that around: In a crossword puzzle "Charles" would be one correct solution for "name of kings, X letters" (X depending on language), as the name was very popular in the nobility, with France and Germany having o resort to high numbers, but topped by Sweden, having Carl XVI
    – LangLangC
    17 hours ago










  • @LangLangC, Thanks for the corrections.
    – Ajagar
    16 hours ago






  • 2




    From reading your question, you seem to think that "Kyrie eleison" was something like alternate title for rulers. In fact, it is a greek phrase meaning "God have mercy". I highly doubt that the phrase was widely used in pre-Christian times anywhere outside of Greece (and maybe some parts of Roman Empire). Can you provide the source for that German quote?
    – Danila Smirnov
    8 hours ago












  • 3




    It seems to me that the question is based on the misperception that names have a coherent origin. It also based on the groundless rejection of an narrative.
    – Mark C. Wallace♦
    18 hours ago







  • 7




    It seems to me that the question is based on a misperception that Charles is somehow a "kingly" name, rather than there just having happened to have been a couple of kings (and LOTS of commoners :-)) with the name. After all, if you look at the British kings, there've been lots more Henrys and Georges that Charleses, and more Louises in France &c.
    – jamesqf
    18 hours ago










  • @jamesqf Or turn that around: In a crossword puzzle "Charles" would be one correct solution for "name of kings, X letters" (X depending on language), as the name was very popular in the nobility, with France and Germany having o resort to high numbers, but topped by Sweden, having Carl XVI
    – LangLangC
    17 hours ago










  • @LangLangC, Thanks for the corrections.
    – Ajagar
    16 hours ago






  • 2




    From reading your question, you seem to think that "Kyrie eleison" was something like alternate title for rulers. In fact, it is a greek phrase meaning "God have mercy". I highly doubt that the phrase was widely used in pre-Christian times anywhere outside of Greece (and maybe some parts of Roman Empire). Can you provide the source for that German quote?
    – Danila Smirnov
    8 hours ago







3




3




It seems to me that the question is based on the misperception that names have a coherent origin. It also based on the groundless rejection of an narrative.
– Mark C. Wallace♦
18 hours ago





It seems to me that the question is based on the misperception that names have a coherent origin. It also based on the groundless rejection of an narrative.
– Mark C. Wallace♦
18 hours ago





7




7




It seems to me that the question is based on a misperception that Charles is somehow a "kingly" name, rather than there just having happened to have been a couple of kings (and LOTS of commoners :-)) with the name. After all, if you look at the British kings, there've been lots more Henrys and Georges that Charleses, and more Louises in France &c.
– jamesqf
18 hours ago




It seems to me that the question is based on a misperception that Charles is somehow a "kingly" name, rather than there just having happened to have been a couple of kings (and LOTS of commoners :-)) with the name. After all, if you look at the British kings, there've been lots more Henrys and Georges that Charleses, and more Louises in France &c.
– jamesqf
18 hours ago












@jamesqf Or turn that around: In a crossword puzzle "Charles" would be one correct solution for "name of kings, X letters" (X depending on language), as the name was very popular in the nobility, with France and Germany having o resort to high numbers, but topped by Sweden, having Carl XVI
– LangLangC
17 hours ago




@jamesqf Or turn that around: In a crossword puzzle "Charles" would be one correct solution for "name of kings, X letters" (X depending on language), as the name was very popular in the nobility, with France and Germany having o resort to high numbers, but topped by Sweden, having Carl XVI
– LangLangC
17 hours ago












@LangLangC, Thanks for the corrections.
– Ajagar
16 hours ago




@LangLangC, Thanks for the corrections.
– Ajagar
16 hours ago




2




2




From reading your question, you seem to think that "Kyrie eleison" was something like alternate title for rulers. In fact, it is a greek phrase meaning "God have mercy". I highly doubt that the phrase was widely used in pre-Christian times anywhere outside of Greece (and maybe some parts of Roman Empire). Can you provide the source for that German quote?
– Danila Smirnov
8 hours ago




From reading your question, you seem to think that "Kyrie eleison" was something like alternate title for rulers. In fact, it is a greek phrase meaning "God have mercy". I highly doubt that the phrase was widely used in pre-Christian times anywhere outside of Greece (and maybe some parts of Roman Empire). Can you provide the source for that German quote?
– Danila Smirnov
8 hours ago










2 Answers
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That connection is not likely. Kyrios has Indogermanic roots, of course, but old-low-Germanic kerl, previously charal, charel, charl, is much closer and makes the connection between Karl and Charles much more readily apparent. Originally *karlaz or *karilaz (free man; little, young man; old man –– this in turn a diminutive to *karaz "man")



Kerl essentially means just man, guy, husband.



Source: KERL, Fundstelle: Lfg. 3 (1865), Bd. V (1873), Sp. 570, Z. 13 („kerl“, in: Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm Grimm, Erstbearbeitung (1854–1960), digitalisierte Version im Digitalen Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache, https://www.dwds.de/wb/dwb/kerl, )



Wikipedia has this as Churl for English. the name used often for kings comes from a very prominent bearer of that name: Karl der Große or Charlesmagne. Similar to Caesar or Augustus for Latin/Roman, ehr, caesars, that is: emperors.



Compare that to lord:




mid-13c., laverd, loverd, from Old English hlaford "master of a household, ruler, feudal lord, superior; husband," also "God," translating Latin dominus, Greek kyrios in the New Testament, Hebrew yahweh in the Old (though Old English dryhten was more frequent). Old English hlaford is a contraction of earlier hlafweard, literally "one who guards the loaves," from hlaf "bread, loaf" (see loaf (n.)) + weard "keeper, guardian" (from PIE root *wer- (3) "perceive, watch out for").




And again carl:




c. 1300, "bondsman; common man, man of low birth," from Old Norse karl "man (as opposed to "woman"), male, freeman," from Proto-Germanic *karlon- (source also of Dutch karel "a fellow," Old High German karl "a man, husband), the same base that produced Old English ceorl "man of low degree" (see churl) and the masc. proper name Carl.




But kyrios κύριος is Greek whereas Charles corresponds to Κάρολος.




Kyrios or kurios (Ancient Greek: κύριος, translit. kýrios) is a Greek word which is usually translated as "lord" or "master".




A cognate for this in English is probably not Charles but church




Etymology

From κῦρος (kûros, “supremacy”) +‎ -ιος (-ios, adjective suffix), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱewH- (“to swell, spread out, be strong, prevail”). Cognate with κύω (kúō), Latin cumulus, cavus.




Just for fun: words in themselves do not have any meaning. They get them from context and culture.




12 Medieval Ways To Insult People, Because You Are Being Such A Cox-Comb Lately: 3. "Churl" –– Sample Sentence: "Fetch my slippers if you're going to act like a churl." –– Meaning: Peasant-like, coarse. This comes from the Old English word ceorl, which literally meant a man one level above a slave. (It also, weirdly, evolved into the Russian word for king, korol.)




But the Russian connection is even more interesting:




In Russia, the name Karl became a household word: they called visitors from Western Europe Karl, mostly Germans, as well as people of small stature, giving rise to the word "dwarf" (Карлик). An example is Carlos (Карлуша), court jester of the Empress called Elizaveta Petrovna). Based on these two values, and also directly from the name itself, the Russian surname Карлов (Karlov) originates.




So this is a nice back and forth full circle. Multiple times. From lowest form of man to ruler of man. From insult to honorific title. If you consider the popularity (in English as Carl) as a first name in the 19th and 20th century for people in lower classes you might ask where exactly this wheel of ups and downs begins or ends. It never stops.



Update after question update:




Consider what the relation is between the meanings ‘man’ and ‘lord’ to practically all Orthodox Catholic nations in Eastern Europe using Karl-like words for king, which I doubt came from Charlesmagne, but more likely from Kyrie Eleison. Why? Because the same widespread use of Caesar (emperor) in German Kaiser and Russian Tsar show a relation to a Roman emperor Caesar who must have been called Kyrie Eleison too.




There is probably a flaw in reasoning: the commonly accepted etymology is



  • engl. king setzen germ. **kuningaz* ‘König’ voraus (DWDS), but Russian korol is the exact loanword from Carolus/Karl like the king word is in Finnish kuningas

  • the Caesar from Gaius Julius became a title that evolved into Kaiser in German, Tzar in Russian, both as titles

  • the Augustus from Octavian, gave rise to the Roman honorific title augusti, first name August of monarchs, and equally derogative of Dummer August

  • King and Tzar are titles of nobility and job descriptions


  • kyrie eleison means "Lord, have mercy!" in Greek. This would be a form of address, including a title and appeal –– that many victims of all those great Charleses may have cried often in vain when being escorted to the scaffolds, if they did speak Greek or knew at least the meaning of this quote. It may even have worked a few times.

The last bullet would mean this is a bit too complicated. There is a certain similarity in sounds and even in meaning over the times, explaining easily why the question came up in the first place. But linguistic development often follows certain rules, like Lautgesetz, that can explain past developments and even predict future developments, but not this change from Kyrie to Charles, which would be quite chaotic and bastardised compared to the much easier explanations offered above. This incompatibility and the violation of the rule of parsimony make the theory in question implausible.



If you do want to go back really far in time and speculate about a Trifunctional hypothesis things might connect better in form of the Rígsþula, although the dating for that is highly contested. The Rígsþula (Old Norse "ballad" or "song of rig"), also known as Rigst(h)ula or Rígsmál, is an Icelandic song of gods that explains the origin of the estates. The otherwise unknown god Ríg (perhaps after Irish rí(g) "king") comes to earth three times and testifies successively to the ancestors of servants, free peasants and nobles, who differ in their appearance: While Þræl (Thräl), the servant, is described as "black of skin", Karl, the farmer, is "red", while Jarl, the nobleman, has "light curls" and "shining cheeks". Compare that with Persian Kyros/Cyrus/Kourosh:




Cyrus, as a word in English, is the Latinized form of the Greek Κῦρος, Kȳros, from Old Persian 𐎤𐎢𐎽𐎢𐏁 Kūruš. According to the inscriptions the name is reflected in Elamite Kuraš, Babylonian Ku(r)-raš/-ra-áš and Imperial Aramaic kwrš. The modern Persian form of the name is Koorosh.




The roots grow on common ground, indeed, but the growth of these bushes is much too recent and dependent on the gardeners' hands to read that much meaning into it.






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  • 3




    One would think anyone living in Feudal England talking about "King Churl" would be likely to get arrested.
    – T.E.D.♦
    22 hours ago






  • 2




    It was a common name that Charlemagne made special?
    – John Dee
    21 hours ago






  • 1




    @JohnDee I'd say, as he was called Charles (later the Great (in one word)), it became increasingly popular to name children destined by their parents to become as great a ruler as he was? [Funny is the name of his brother Carloman/Karlmann, basically Charlescharles]
    – LangLangC
    21 hours ago






  • 1




    @T.E.D. That seems indeed likely
    – LangLangC
    21 hours ago






  • 1




    We still use churlish
    – Orangesandlemons
    16 hours ago

















up vote
6
down vote













I may add that Charlemagne was almost certainly named Karl or Charles after his grandfather, Charles Martel (c. 688–741). Charles Martel ("The Hammer") ruled the Frankish kingdoms as Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia 715–741, Mayor of the Palace of Neustria 718–741, and Prince and Duke of the Franks 718–741.



Charles Martel would have been named by his father Pepin II "of Herstal", Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia 680-714, Mayor of the Palace of Neustria 687–695, Mayor of the Palace of Burgundy 687-695, Prince and Duke of the Franks 687–714, and his second wife Alpaida.



Wikipedia says:




Charles Martel (686–741) was an illegitimate son of Pepin of Herstal, and therefore indeed a "free man", but not of noble rank. After his victory at the Battle of Soissons (718), Charles Martel styled himself Duke of the Franks. Charles' eldest son was named Carloman (c. 710–754), a rare example of the element carl- occurring in a compound name. The Chronicle of Fredegar names an earlier Carloman as the father of Pepin of Landen, and thus the great-great-grandfather of the Charles Martel. This would place the name Carloman in the 6th century, and open the possibility that the Frankish name Carl may originate as a short form of Carloman. The only other compound name with the Carl- prefix is Carlofred (Carlefred), attested in the 7th century; as a suffix, it occurs in the rare names Altcarl and Gundecarl (9th and 11th centuries, respectively).




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles#Saint_Charles1



Pepin II of Herstal (c.635–714) was the son of Ansegisel (c. 602/610–662/679) and Begga (615–693), the daughter of Pepin I "The Elder", "Of Landen"(c. 580–640) Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia. Pepin I was the son of a Carloman, "Carl Man" or "freeman man" who may have been the source of the name Carl among that family.



So the name Carl or Karl originally meant "freeman", "ordinary, average man", "lowly guy", "generic man", "man", etc. After the reign of Karl der Grosse, "Charles the Great", known in Latin as Carolus Magnus – the source of the French Charlemagne – the name of Charles began to seem very high and exalted.



The word for King in some modern European languages is:



  • Bosnian: Kralji

  • Bulgaria: Kral

  • Croatian: Kralji

  • Czech: Kral

  • Hungarian: Kiraly

  • Latvian: Karalis

  • Lithuanian: Karalius

  • Macedonian: Kral

  • Polish: Krol

  • Russian: Korol

  • Serbian: Kralj

  • Slovak: Kral

  • Slovenian: Kralj

  • Ukranian: Korol

And all those titles are derived from the Germanic name Karl. So in all those languages the word for king basically means "Charles", "Charlemagne-like", or "man". And thus a name originally meaning a lowly and ordinary man has come to mean king in over a dozen languages.






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  • "basically means" well basically meant 1200 years ago before important sound changes happened. But nobody now thinks about that today, it is just the origin, not the meaning any more.
    – Vladimir F
    14 hours ago






  • 1




    “And all those titles are derived from the Germanic name Karl.“ Where is the evidence that they arent cognates (name and titles) instead of all derived from German Karl? If we look at George it means ‘earth-worker’ and as such refers to Bootes and the Plow (Ursa major constellation) that defeats the dragon simply meaning the pole star changed from Draco (the slain dragon) to The plowing man (St George-Ursa major as the plough (the Great Bear) septentriones. So George is a divine name for the constellations that provided the new pole star after Thuban (Alpha Draconis the dragon) was dethroned.
    – Ajagar
    13 hours ago











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16
down vote













That connection is not likely. Kyrios has Indogermanic roots, of course, but old-low-Germanic kerl, previously charal, charel, charl, is much closer and makes the connection between Karl and Charles much more readily apparent. Originally *karlaz or *karilaz (free man; little, young man; old man –– this in turn a diminutive to *karaz "man")



Kerl essentially means just man, guy, husband.



Source: KERL, Fundstelle: Lfg. 3 (1865), Bd. V (1873), Sp. 570, Z. 13 („kerl“, in: Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm Grimm, Erstbearbeitung (1854–1960), digitalisierte Version im Digitalen Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache, https://www.dwds.de/wb/dwb/kerl, )



Wikipedia has this as Churl for English. the name used often for kings comes from a very prominent bearer of that name: Karl der Große or Charlesmagne. Similar to Caesar or Augustus for Latin/Roman, ehr, caesars, that is: emperors.



Compare that to lord:




mid-13c., laverd, loverd, from Old English hlaford "master of a household, ruler, feudal lord, superior; husband," also "God," translating Latin dominus, Greek kyrios in the New Testament, Hebrew yahweh in the Old (though Old English dryhten was more frequent). Old English hlaford is a contraction of earlier hlafweard, literally "one who guards the loaves," from hlaf "bread, loaf" (see loaf (n.)) + weard "keeper, guardian" (from PIE root *wer- (3) "perceive, watch out for").




And again carl:




c. 1300, "bondsman; common man, man of low birth," from Old Norse karl "man (as opposed to "woman"), male, freeman," from Proto-Germanic *karlon- (source also of Dutch karel "a fellow," Old High German karl "a man, husband), the same base that produced Old English ceorl "man of low degree" (see churl) and the masc. proper name Carl.




But kyrios κύριος is Greek whereas Charles corresponds to Κάρολος.




Kyrios or kurios (Ancient Greek: κύριος, translit. kýrios) is a Greek word which is usually translated as "lord" or "master".




A cognate for this in English is probably not Charles but church




Etymology

From κῦρος (kûros, “supremacy”) +‎ -ιος (-ios, adjective suffix), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱewH- (“to swell, spread out, be strong, prevail”). Cognate with κύω (kúō), Latin cumulus, cavus.




Just for fun: words in themselves do not have any meaning. They get them from context and culture.




12 Medieval Ways To Insult People, Because You Are Being Such A Cox-Comb Lately: 3. "Churl" –– Sample Sentence: "Fetch my slippers if you're going to act like a churl." –– Meaning: Peasant-like, coarse. This comes from the Old English word ceorl, which literally meant a man one level above a slave. (It also, weirdly, evolved into the Russian word for king, korol.)




But the Russian connection is even more interesting:




In Russia, the name Karl became a household word: they called visitors from Western Europe Karl, mostly Germans, as well as people of small stature, giving rise to the word "dwarf" (Карлик). An example is Carlos (Карлуша), court jester of the Empress called Elizaveta Petrovna). Based on these two values, and also directly from the name itself, the Russian surname Карлов (Karlov) originates.




So this is a nice back and forth full circle. Multiple times. From lowest form of man to ruler of man. From insult to honorific title. If you consider the popularity (in English as Carl) as a first name in the 19th and 20th century for people in lower classes you might ask where exactly this wheel of ups and downs begins or ends. It never stops.



Update after question update:




Consider what the relation is between the meanings ‘man’ and ‘lord’ to practically all Orthodox Catholic nations in Eastern Europe using Karl-like words for king, which I doubt came from Charlesmagne, but more likely from Kyrie Eleison. Why? Because the same widespread use of Caesar (emperor) in German Kaiser and Russian Tsar show a relation to a Roman emperor Caesar who must have been called Kyrie Eleison too.




There is probably a flaw in reasoning: the commonly accepted etymology is



  • engl. king setzen germ. **kuningaz* ‘König’ voraus (DWDS), but Russian korol is the exact loanword from Carolus/Karl like the king word is in Finnish kuningas

  • the Caesar from Gaius Julius became a title that evolved into Kaiser in German, Tzar in Russian, both as titles

  • the Augustus from Octavian, gave rise to the Roman honorific title augusti, first name August of monarchs, and equally derogative of Dummer August

  • King and Tzar are titles of nobility and job descriptions


  • kyrie eleison means "Lord, have mercy!" in Greek. This would be a form of address, including a title and appeal –– that many victims of all those great Charleses may have cried often in vain when being escorted to the scaffolds, if they did speak Greek or knew at least the meaning of this quote. It may even have worked a few times.

The last bullet would mean this is a bit too complicated. There is a certain similarity in sounds and even in meaning over the times, explaining easily why the question came up in the first place. But linguistic development often follows certain rules, like Lautgesetz, that can explain past developments and even predict future developments, but not this change from Kyrie to Charles, which would be quite chaotic and bastardised compared to the much easier explanations offered above. This incompatibility and the violation of the rule of parsimony make the theory in question implausible.



If you do want to go back really far in time and speculate about a Trifunctional hypothesis things might connect better in form of the Rígsþula, although the dating for that is highly contested. The Rígsþula (Old Norse "ballad" or "song of rig"), also known as Rigst(h)ula or Rígsmál, is an Icelandic song of gods that explains the origin of the estates. The otherwise unknown god Ríg (perhaps after Irish rí(g) "king") comes to earth three times and testifies successively to the ancestors of servants, free peasants and nobles, who differ in their appearance: While Þræl (Thräl), the servant, is described as "black of skin", Karl, the farmer, is "red", while Jarl, the nobleman, has "light curls" and "shining cheeks". Compare that with Persian Kyros/Cyrus/Kourosh:




Cyrus, as a word in English, is the Latinized form of the Greek Κῦρος, Kȳros, from Old Persian 𐎤𐎢𐎽𐎢𐏁 Kūruš. According to the inscriptions the name is reflected in Elamite Kuraš, Babylonian Ku(r)-raš/-ra-áš and Imperial Aramaic kwrš. The modern Persian form of the name is Koorosh.




The roots grow on common ground, indeed, but the growth of these bushes is much too recent and dependent on the gardeners' hands to read that much meaning into it.






share|improve this answer


















  • 3




    One would think anyone living in Feudal England talking about "King Churl" would be likely to get arrested.
    – T.E.D.♦
    22 hours ago






  • 2




    It was a common name that Charlemagne made special?
    – John Dee
    21 hours ago






  • 1




    @JohnDee I'd say, as he was called Charles (later the Great (in one word)), it became increasingly popular to name children destined by their parents to become as great a ruler as he was? [Funny is the name of his brother Carloman/Karlmann, basically Charlescharles]
    – LangLangC
    21 hours ago






  • 1




    @T.E.D. That seems indeed likely
    – LangLangC
    21 hours ago






  • 1




    We still use churlish
    – Orangesandlemons
    16 hours ago














up vote
16
down vote













That connection is not likely. Kyrios has Indogermanic roots, of course, but old-low-Germanic kerl, previously charal, charel, charl, is much closer and makes the connection between Karl and Charles much more readily apparent. Originally *karlaz or *karilaz (free man; little, young man; old man –– this in turn a diminutive to *karaz "man")



Kerl essentially means just man, guy, husband.



Source: KERL, Fundstelle: Lfg. 3 (1865), Bd. V (1873), Sp. 570, Z. 13 („kerl“, in: Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm Grimm, Erstbearbeitung (1854–1960), digitalisierte Version im Digitalen Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache, https://www.dwds.de/wb/dwb/kerl, )



Wikipedia has this as Churl for English. the name used often for kings comes from a very prominent bearer of that name: Karl der Große or Charlesmagne. Similar to Caesar or Augustus for Latin/Roman, ehr, caesars, that is: emperors.



Compare that to lord:




mid-13c., laverd, loverd, from Old English hlaford "master of a household, ruler, feudal lord, superior; husband," also "God," translating Latin dominus, Greek kyrios in the New Testament, Hebrew yahweh in the Old (though Old English dryhten was more frequent). Old English hlaford is a contraction of earlier hlafweard, literally "one who guards the loaves," from hlaf "bread, loaf" (see loaf (n.)) + weard "keeper, guardian" (from PIE root *wer- (3) "perceive, watch out for").




And again carl:




c. 1300, "bondsman; common man, man of low birth," from Old Norse karl "man (as opposed to "woman"), male, freeman," from Proto-Germanic *karlon- (source also of Dutch karel "a fellow," Old High German karl "a man, husband), the same base that produced Old English ceorl "man of low degree" (see churl) and the masc. proper name Carl.




But kyrios κύριος is Greek whereas Charles corresponds to Κάρολος.




Kyrios or kurios (Ancient Greek: κύριος, translit. kýrios) is a Greek word which is usually translated as "lord" or "master".




A cognate for this in English is probably not Charles but church




Etymology

From κῦρος (kûros, “supremacy”) +‎ -ιος (-ios, adjective suffix), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱewH- (“to swell, spread out, be strong, prevail”). Cognate with κύω (kúō), Latin cumulus, cavus.




Just for fun: words in themselves do not have any meaning. They get them from context and culture.




12 Medieval Ways To Insult People, Because You Are Being Such A Cox-Comb Lately: 3. "Churl" –– Sample Sentence: "Fetch my slippers if you're going to act like a churl." –– Meaning: Peasant-like, coarse. This comes from the Old English word ceorl, which literally meant a man one level above a slave. (It also, weirdly, evolved into the Russian word for king, korol.)




But the Russian connection is even more interesting:




In Russia, the name Karl became a household word: they called visitors from Western Europe Karl, mostly Germans, as well as people of small stature, giving rise to the word "dwarf" (Карлик). An example is Carlos (Карлуша), court jester of the Empress called Elizaveta Petrovna). Based on these two values, and also directly from the name itself, the Russian surname Карлов (Karlov) originates.




So this is a nice back and forth full circle. Multiple times. From lowest form of man to ruler of man. From insult to honorific title. If you consider the popularity (in English as Carl) as a first name in the 19th and 20th century for people in lower classes you might ask where exactly this wheel of ups and downs begins or ends. It never stops.



Update after question update:




Consider what the relation is between the meanings ‘man’ and ‘lord’ to practically all Orthodox Catholic nations in Eastern Europe using Karl-like words for king, which I doubt came from Charlesmagne, but more likely from Kyrie Eleison. Why? Because the same widespread use of Caesar (emperor) in German Kaiser and Russian Tsar show a relation to a Roman emperor Caesar who must have been called Kyrie Eleison too.




There is probably a flaw in reasoning: the commonly accepted etymology is



  • engl. king setzen germ. **kuningaz* ‘König’ voraus (DWDS), but Russian korol is the exact loanword from Carolus/Karl like the king word is in Finnish kuningas

  • the Caesar from Gaius Julius became a title that evolved into Kaiser in German, Tzar in Russian, both as titles

  • the Augustus from Octavian, gave rise to the Roman honorific title augusti, first name August of monarchs, and equally derogative of Dummer August

  • King and Tzar are titles of nobility and job descriptions


  • kyrie eleison means "Lord, have mercy!" in Greek. This would be a form of address, including a title and appeal –– that many victims of all those great Charleses may have cried often in vain when being escorted to the scaffolds, if they did speak Greek or knew at least the meaning of this quote. It may even have worked a few times.

The last bullet would mean this is a bit too complicated. There is a certain similarity in sounds and even in meaning over the times, explaining easily why the question came up in the first place. But linguistic development often follows certain rules, like Lautgesetz, that can explain past developments and even predict future developments, but not this change from Kyrie to Charles, which would be quite chaotic and bastardised compared to the much easier explanations offered above. This incompatibility and the violation of the rule of parsimony make the theory in question implausible.



If you do want to go back really far in time and speculate about a Trifunctional hypothesis things might connect better in form of the Rígsþula, although the dating for that is highly contested. The Rígsþula (Old Norse "ballad" or "song of rig"), also known as Rigst(h)ula or Rígsmál, is an Icelandic song of gods that explains the origin of the estates. The otherwise unknown god Ríg (perhaps after Irish rí(g) "king") comes to earth three times and testifies successively to the ancestors of servants, free peasants and nobles, who differ in their appearance: While Þræl (Thräl), the servant, is described as "black of skin", Karl, the farmer, is "red", while Jarl, the nobleman, has "light curls" and "shining cheeks". Compare that with Persian Kyros/Cyrus/Kourosh:




Cyrus, as a word in English, is the Latinized form of the Greek Κῦρος, Kȳros, from Old Persian 𐎤𐎢𐎽𐎢𐏁 Kūruš. According to the inscriptions the name is reflected in Elamite Kuraš, Babylonian Ku(r)-raš/-ra-áš and Imperial Aramaic kwrš. The modern Persian form of the name is Koorosh.




The roots grow on common ground, indeed, but the growth of these bushes is much too recent and dependent on the gardeners' hands to read that much meaning into it.






share|improve this answer


















  • 3




    One would think anyone living in Feudal England talking about "King Churl" would be likely to get arrested.
    – T.E.D.♦
    22 hours ago






  • 2




    It was a common name that Charlemagne made special?
    – John Dee
    21 hours ago






  • 1




    @JohnDee I'd say, as he was called Charles (later the Great (in one word)), it became increasingly popular to name children destined by their parents to become as great a ruler as he was? [Funny is the name of his brother Carloman/Karlmann, basically Charlescharles]
    – LangLangC
    21 hours ago






  • 1




    @T.E.D. That seems indeed likely
    – LangLangC
    21 hours ago






  • 1




    We still use churlish
    – Orangesandlemons
    16 hours ago












up vote
16
down vote










up vote
16
down vote









That connection is not likely. Kyrios has Indogermanic roots, of course, but old-low-Germanic kerl, previously charal, charel, charl, is much closer and makes the connection between Karl and Charles much more readily apparent. Originally *karlaz or *karilaz (free man; little, young man; old man –– this in turn a diminutive to *karaz "man")



Kerl essentially means just man, guy, husband.



Source: KERL, Fundstelle: Lfg. 3 (1865), Bd. V (1873), Sp. 570, Z. 13 („kerl“, in: Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm Grimm, Erstbearbeitung (1854–1960), digitalisierte Version im Digitalen Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache, https://www.dwds.de/wb/dwb/kerl, )



Wikipedia has this as Churl for English. the name used often for kings comes from a very prominent bearer of that name: Karl der Große or Charlesmagne. Similar to Caesar or Augustus for Latin/Roman, ehr, caesars, that is: emperors.



Compare that to lord:




mid-13c., laverd, loverd, from Old English hlaford "master of a household, ruler, feudal lord, superior; husband," also "God," translating Latin dominus, Greek kyrios in the New Testament, Hebrew yahweh in the Old (though Old English dryhten was more frequent). Old English hlaford is a contraction of earlier hlafweard, literally "one who guards the loaves," from hlaf "bread, loaf" (see loaf (n.)) + weard "keeper, guardian" (from PIE root *wer- (3) "perceive, watch out for").




And again carl:




c. 1300, "bondsman; common man, man of low birth," from Old Norse karl "man (as opposed to "woman"), male, freeman," from Proto-Germanic *karlon- (source also of Dutch karel "a fellow," Old High German karl "a man, husband), the same base that produced Old English ceorl "man of low degree" (see churl) and the masc. proper name Carl.




But kyrios κύριος is Greek whereas Charles corresponds to Κάρολος.




Kyrios or kurios (Ancient Greek: κύριος, translit. kýrios) is a Greek word which is usually translated as "lord" or "master".




A cognate for this in English is probably not Charles but church




Etymology

From κῦρος (kûros, “supremacy”) +‎ -ιος (-ios, adjective suffix), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱewH- (“to swell, spread out, be strong, prevail”). Cognate with κύω (kúō), Latin cumulus, cavus.




Just for fun: words in themselves do not have any meaning. They get them from context and culture.




12 Medieval Ways To Insult People, Because You Are Being Such A Cox-Comb Lately: 3. "Churl" –– Sample Sentence: "Fetch my slippers if you're going to act like a churl." –– Meaning: Peasant-like, coarse. This comes from the Old English word ceorl, which literally meant a man one level above a slave. (It also, weirdly, evolved into the Russian word for king, korol.)




But the Russian connection is even more interesting:




In Russia, the name Karl became a household word: they called visitors from Western Europe Karl, mostly Germans, as well as people of small stature, giving rise to the word "dwarf" (Карлик). An example is Carlos (Карлуша), court jester of the Empress called Elizaveta Petrovna). Based on these two values, and also directly from the name itself, the Russian surname Карлов (Karlov) originates.




So this is a nice back and forth full circle. Multiple times. From lowest form of man to ruler of man. From insult to honorific title. If you consider the popularity (in English as Carl) as a first name in the 19th and 20th century for people in lower classes you might ask where exactly this wheel of ups and downs begins or ends. It never stops.



Update after question update:




Consider what the relation is between the meanings ‘man’ and ‘lord’ to practically all Orthodox Catholic nations in Eastern Europe using Karl-like words for king, which I doubt came from Charlesmagne, but more likely from Kyrie Eleison. Why? Because the same widespread use of Caesar (emperor) in German Kaiser and Russian Tsar show a relation to a Roman emperor Caesar who must have been called Kyrie Eleison too.




There is probably a flaw in reasoning: the commonly accepted etymology is



  • engl. king setzen germ. **kuningaz* ‘König’ voraus (DWDS), but Russian korol is the exact loanword from Carolus/Karl like the king word is in Finnish kuningas

  • the Caesar from Gaius Julius became a title that evolved into Kaiser in German, Tzar in Russian, both as titles

  • the Augustus from Octavian, gave rise to the Roman honorific title augusti, first name August of monarchs, and equally derogative of Dummer August

  • King and Tzar are titles of nobility and job descriptions


  • kyrie eleison means "Lord, have mercy!" in Greek. This would be a form of address, including a title and appeal –– that many victims of all those great Charleses may have cried often in vain when being escorted to the scaffolds, if they did speak Greek or knew at least the meaning of this quote. It may even have worked a few times.

The last bullet would mean this is a bit too complicated. There is a certain similarity in sounds and even in meaning over the times, explaining easily why the question came up in the first place. But linguistic development often follows certain rules, like Lautgesetz, that can explain past developments and even predict future developments, but not this change from Kyrie to Charles, which would be quite chaotic and bastardised compared to the much easier explanations offered above. This incompatibility and the violation of the rule of parsimony make the theory in question implausible.



If you do want to go back really far in time and speculate about a Trifunctional hypothesis things might connect better in form of the Rígsþula, although the dating for that is highly contested. The Rígsþula (Old Norse "ballad" or "song of rig"), also known as Rigst(h)ula or Rígsmál, is an Icelandic song of gods that explains the origin of the estates. The otherwise unknown god Ríg (perhaps after Irish rí(g) "king") comes to earth three times and testifies successively to the ancestors of servants, free peasants and nobles, who differ in their appearance: While Þræl (Thräl), the servant, is described as "black of skin", Karl, the farmer, is "red", while Jarl, the nobleman, has "light curls" and "shining cheeks". Compare that with Persian Kyros/Cyrus/Kourosh:




Cyrus, as a word in English, is the Latinized form of the Greek Κῦρος, Kȳros, from Old Persian 𐎤𐎢𐎽𐎢𐏁 Kūruš. According to the inscriptions the name is reflected in Elamite Kuraš, Babylonian Ku(r)-raš/-ra-áš and Imperial Aramaic kwrš. The modern Persian form of the name is Koorosh.




The roots grow on common ground, indeed, but the growth of these bushes is much too recent and dependent on the gardeners' hands to read that much meaning into it.






share|improve this answer














That connection is not likely. Kyrios has Indogermanic roots, of course, but old-low-Germanic kerl, previously charal, charel, charl, is much closer and makes the connection between Karl and Charles much more readily apparent. Originally *karlaz or *karilaz (free man; little, young man; old man –– this in turn a diminutive to *karaz "man")



Kerl essentially means just man, guy, husband.



Source: KERL, Fundstelle: Lfg. 3 (1865), Bd. V (1873), Sp. 570, Z. 13 („kerl“, in: Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm Grimm, Erstbearbeitung (1854–1960), digitalisierte Version im Digitalen Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache, https://www.dwds.de/wb/dwb/kerl, )



Wikipedia has this as Churl for English. the name used often for kings comes from a very prominent bearer of that name: Karl der Große or Charlesmagne. Similar to Caesar or Augustus for Latin/Roman, ehr, caesars, that is: emperors.



Compare that to lord:




mid-13c., laverd, loverd, from Old English hlaford "master of a household, ruler, feudal lord, superior; husband," also "God," translating Latin dominus, Greek kyrios in the New Testament, Hebrew yahweh in the Old (though Old English dryhten was more frequent). Old English hlaford is a contraction of earlier hlafweard, literally "one who guards the loaves," from hlaf "bread, loaf" (see loaf (n.)) + weard "keeper, guardian" (from PIE root *wer- (3) "perceive, watch out for").




And again carl:




c. 1300, "bondsman; common man, man of low birth," from Old Norse karl "man (as opposed to "woman"), male, freeman," from Proto-Germanic *karlon- (source also of Dutch karel "a fellow," Old High German karl "a man, husband), the same base that produced Old English ceorl "man of low degree" (see churl) and the masc. proper name Carl.




But kyrios κύριος is Greek whereas Charles corresponds to Κάρολος.




Kyrios or kurios (Ancient Greek: κύριος, translit. kýrios) is a Greek word which is usually translated as "lord" or "master".




A cognate for this in English is probably not Charles but church




Etymology

From κῦρος (kûros, “supremacy”) +‎ -ιος (-ios, adjective suffix), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱewH- (“to swell, spread out, be strong, prevail”). Cognate with κύω (kúō), Latin cumulus, cavus.




Just for fun: words in themselves do not have any meaning. They get them from context and culture.




12 Medieval Ways To Insult People, Because You Are Being Such A Cox-Comb Lately: 3. "Churl" –– Sample Sentence: "Fetch my slippers if you're going to act like a churl." –– Meaning: Peasant-like, coarse. This comes from the Old English word ceorl, which literally meant a man one level above a slave. (It also, weirdly, evolved into the Russian word for king, korol.)




But the Russian connection is even more interesting:




In Russia, the name Karl became a household word: they called visitors from Western Europe Karl, mostly Germans, as well as people of small stature, giving rise to the word "dwarf" (Карлик). An example is Carlos (Карлуша), court jester of the Empress called Elizaveta Petrovna). Based on these two values, and also directly from the name itself, the Russian surname Карлов (Karlov) originates.




So this is a nice back and forth full circle. Multiple times. From lowest form of man to ruler of man. From insult to honorific title. If you consider the popularity (in English as Carl) as a first name in the 19th and 20th century for people in lower classes you might ask where exactly this wheel of ups and downs begins or ends. It never stops.



Update after question update:




Consider what the relation is between the meanings ‘man’ and ‘lord’ to practically all Orthodox Catholic nations in Eastern Europe using Karl-like words for king, which I doubt came from Charlesmagne, but more likely from Kyrie Eleison. Why? Because the same widespread use of Caesar (emperor) in German Kaiser and Russian Tsar show a relation to a Roman emperor Caesar who must have been called Kyrie Eleison too.




There is probably a flaw in reasoning: the commonly accepted etymology is



  • engl. king setzen germ. **kuningaz* ‘König’ voraus (DWDS), but Russian korol is the exact loanword from Carolus/Karl like the king word is in Finnish kuningas

  • the Caesar from Gaius Julius became a title that evolved into Kaiser in German, Tzar in Russian, both as titles

  • the Augustus from Octavian, gave rise to the Roman honorific title augusti, first name August of monarchs, and equally derogative of Dummer August

  • King and Tzar are titles of nobility and job descriptions


  • kyrie eleison means "Lord, have mercy!" in Greek. This would be a form of address, including a title and appeal –– that many victims of all those great Charleses may have cried often in vain when being escorted to the scaffolds, if they did speak Greek or knew at least the meaning of this quote. It may even have worked a few times.

The last bullet would mean this is a bit too complicated. There is a certain similarity in sounds and even in meaning over the times, explaining easily why the question came up in the first place. But linguistic development often follows certain rules, like Lautgesetz, that can explain past developments and even predict future developments, but not this change from Kyrie to Charles, which would be quite chaotic and bastardised compared to the much easier explanations offered above. This incompatibility and the violation of the rule of parsimony make the theory in question implausible.



If you do want to go back really far in time and speculate about a Trifunctional hypothesis things might connect better in form of the Rígsþula, although the dating for that is highly contested. The Rígsþula (Old Norse "ballad" or "song of rig"), also known as Rigst(h)ula or Rígsmál, is an Icelandic song of gods that explains the origin of the estates. The otherwise unknown god Ríg (perhaps after Irish rí(g) "king") comes to earth three times and testifies successively to the ancestors of servants, free peasants and nobles, who differ in their appearance: While Þræl (Thräl), the servant, is described as "black of skin", Karl, the farmer, is "red", while Jarl, the nobleman, has "light curls" and "shining cheeks". Compare that with Persian Kyros/Cyrus/Kourosh:




Cyrus, as a word in English, is the Latinized form of the Greek Κῦρος, Kȳros, from Old Persian 𐎤𐎢𐎽𐎢𐏁 Kūruš. According to the inscriptions the name is reflected in Elamite Kuraš, Babylonian Ku(r)-raš/-ra-áš and Imperial Aramaic kwrš. The modern Persian form of the name is Koorosh.




The roots grow on common ground, indeed, but the growth of these bushes is much too recent and dependent on the gardeners' hands to read that much meaning into it.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 16 hours ago

























answered yesterday









LangLangC

16.9k35494




16.9k35494







  • 3




    One would think anyone living in Feudal England talking about "King Churl" would be likely to get arrested.
    – T.E.D.♦
    22 hours ago






  • 2




    It was a common name that Charlemagne made special?
    – John Dee
    21 hours ago






  • 1




    @JohnDee I'd say, as he was called Charles (later the Great (in one word)), it became increasingly popular to name children destined by their parents to become as great a ruler as he was? [Funny is the name of his brother Carloman/Karlmann, basically Charlescharles]
    – LangLangC
    21 hours ago






  • 1




    @T.E.D. That seems indeed likely
    – LangLangC
    21 hours ago






  • 1




    We still use churlish
    – Orangesandlemons
    16 hours ago












  • 3




    One would think anyone living in Feudal England talking about "King Churl" would be likely to get arrested.
    – T.E.D.♦
    22 hours ago






  • 2




    It was a common name that Charlemagne made special?
    – John Dee
    21 hours ago






  • 1




    @JohnDee I'd say, as he was called Charles (later the Great (in one word)), it became increasingly popular to name children destined by their parents to become as great a ruler as he was? [Funny is the name of his brother Carloman/Karlmann, basically Charlescharles]
    – LangLangC
    21 hours ago






  • 1




    @T.E.D. That seems indeed likely
    – LangLangC
    21 hours ago






  • 1




    We still use churlish
    – Orangesandlemons
    16 hours ago







3




3




One would think anyone living in Feudal England talking about "King Churl" would be likely to get arrested.
– T.E.D.♦
22 hours ago




One would think anyone living in Feudal England talking about "King Churl" would be likely to get arrested.
– T.E.D.♦
22 hours ago




2




2




It was a common name that Charlemagne made special?
– John Dee
21 hours ago




It was a common name that Charlemagne made special?
– John Dee
21 hours ago




1




1




@JohnDee I'd say, as he was called Charles (later the Great (in one word)), it became increasingly popular to name children destined by their parents to become as great a ruler as he was? [Funny is the name of his brother Carloman/Karlmann, basically Charlescharles]
– LangLangC
21 hours ago




@JohnDee I'd say, as he was called Charles (later the Great (in one word)), it became increasingly popular to name children destined by their parents to become as great a ruler as he was? [Funny is the name of his brother Carloman/Karlmann, basically Charlescharles]
– LangLangC
21 hours ago




1




1




@T.E.D. That seems indeed likely
– LangLangC
21 hours ago




@T.E.D. That seems indeed likely
– LangLangC
21 hours ago




1




1




We still use churlish
– Orangesandlemons
16 hours ago




We still use churlish
– Orangesandlemons
16 hours ago










up vote
6
down vote













I may add that Charlemagne was almost certainly named Karl or Charles after his grandfather, Charles Martel (c. 688–741). Charles Martel ("The Hammer") ruled the Frankish kingdoms as Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia 715–741, Mayor of the Palace of Neustria 718–741, and Prince and Duke of the Franks 718–741.



Charles Martel would have been named by his father Pepin II "of Herstal", Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia 680-714, Mayor of the Palace of Neustria 687–695, Mayor of the Palace of Burgundy 687-695, Prince and Duke of the Franks 687–714, and his second wife Alpaida.



Wikipedia says:




Charles Martel (686–741) was an illegitimate son of Pepin of Herstal, and therefore indeed a "free man", but not of noble rank. After his victory at the Battle of Soissons (718), Charles Martel styled himself Duke of the Franks. Charles' eldest son was named Carloman (c. 710–754), a rare example of the element carl- occurring in a compound name. The Chronicle of Fredegar names an earlier Carloman as the father of Pepin of Landen, and thus the great-great-grandfather of the Charles Martel. This would place the name Carloman in the 6th century, and open the possibility that the Frankish name Carl may originate as a short form of Carloman. The only other compound name with the Carl- prefix is Carlofred (Carlefred), attested in the 7th century; as a suffix, it occurs in the rare names Altcarl and Gundecarl (9th and 11th centuries, respectively).




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles#Saint_Charles1



Pepin II of Herstal (c.635–714) was the son of Ansegisel (c. 602/610–662/679) and Begga (615–693), the daughter of Pepin I "The Elder", "Of Landen"(c. 580–640) Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia. Pepin I was the son of a Carloman, "Carl Man" or "freeman man" who may have been the source of the name Carl among that family.



So the name Carl or Karl originally meant "freeman", "ordinary, average man", "lowly guy", "generic man", "man", etc. After the reign of Karl der Grosse, "Charles the Great", known in Latin as Carolus Magnus – the source of the French Charlemagne – the name of Charles began to seem very high and exalted.



The word for King in some modern European languages is:



  • Bosnian: Kralji

  • Bulgaria: Kral

  • Croatian: Kralji

  • Czech: Kral

  • Hungarian: Kiraly

  • Latvian: Karalis

  • Lithuanian: Karalius

  • Macedonian: Kral

  • Polish: Krol

  • Russian: Korol

  • Serbian: Kralj

  • Slovak: Kral

  • Slovenian: Kralj

  • Ukranian: Korol

And all those titles are derived from the Germanic name Karl. So in all those languages the word for king basically means "Charles", "Charlemagne-like", or "man". And thus a name originally meaning a lowly and ordinary man has come to mean king in over a dozen languages.






share|improve this answer






















  • "basically means" well basically meant 1200 years ago before important sound changes happened. But nobody now thinks about that today, it is just the origin, not the meaning any more.
    – Vladimir F
    14 hours ago






  • 1




    “And all those titles are derived from the Germanic name Karl.“ Where is the evidence that they arent cognates (name and titles) instead of all derived from German Karl? If we look at George it means ‘earth-worker’ and as such refers to Bootes and the Plow (Ursa major constellation) that defeats the dragon simply meaning the pole star changed from Draco (the slain dragon) to The plowing man (St George-Ursa major as the plough (the Great Bear) septentriones. So George is a divine name for the constellations that provided the new pole star after Thuban (Alpha Draconis the dragon) was dethroned.
    – Ajagar
    13 hours ago















up vote
6
down vote













I may add that Charlemagne was almost certainly named Karl or Charles after his grandfather, Charles Martel (c. 688–741). Charles Martel ("The Hammer") ruled the Frankish kingdoms as Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia 715–741, Mayor of the Palace of Neustria 718–741, and Prince and Duke of the Franks 718–741.



Charles Martel would have been named by his father Pepin II "of Herstal", Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia 680-714, Mayor of the Palace of Neustria 687–695, Mayor of the Palace of Burgundy 687-695, Prince and Duke of the Franks 687–714, and his second wife Alpaida.



Wikipedia says:




Charles Martel (686–741) was an illegitimate son of Pepin of Herstal, and therefore indeed a "free man", but not of noble rank. After his victory at the Battle of Soissons (718), Charles Martel styled himself Duke of the Franks. Charles' eldest son was named Carloman (c. 710–754), a rare example of the element carl- occurring in a compound name. The Chronicle of Fredegar names an earlier Carloman as the father of Pepin of Landen, and thus the great-great-grandfather of the Charles Martel. This would place the name Carloman in the 6th century, and open the possibility that the Frankish name Carl may originate as a short form of Carloman. The only other compound name with the Carl- prefix is Carlofred (Carlefred), attested in the 7th century; as a suffix, it occurs in the rare names Altcarl and Gundecarl (9th and 11th centuries, respectively).




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles#Saint_Charles1



Pepin II of Herstal (c.635–714) was the son of Ansegisel (c. 602/610–662/679) and Begga (615–693), the daughter of Pepin I "The Elder", "Of Landen"(c. 580–640) Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia. Pepin I was the son of a Carloman, "Carl Man" or "freeman man" who may have been the source of the name Carl among that family.



So the name Carl or Karl originally meant "freeman", "ordinary, average man", "lowly guy", "generic man", "man", etc. After the reign of Karl der Grosse, "Charles the Great", known in Latin as Carolus Magnus – the source of the French Charlemagne – the name of Charles began to seem very high and exalted.



The word for King in some modern European languages is:



  • Bosnian: Kralji

  • Bulgaria: Kral

  • Croatian: Kralji

  • Czech: Kral

  • Hungarian: Kiraly

  • Latvian: Karalis

  • Lithuanian: Karalius

  • Macedonian: Kral

  • Polish: Krol

  • Russian: Korol

  • Serbian: Kralj

  • Slovak: Kral

  • Slovenian: Kralj

  • Ukranian: Korol

And all those titles are derived from the Germanic name Karl. So in all those languages the word for king basically means "Charles", "Charlemagne-like", or "man". And thus a name originally meaning a lowly and ordinary man has come to mean king in over a dozen languages.






share|improve this answer






















  • "basically means" well basically meant 1200 years ago before important sound changes happened. But nobody now thinks about that today, it is just the origin, not the meaning any more.
    – Vladimir F
    14 hours ago






  • 1




    “And all those titles are derived from the Germanic name Karl.“ Where is the evidence that they arent cognates (name and titles) instead of all derived from German Karl? If we look at George it means ‘earth-worker’ and as such refers to Bootes and the Plow (Ursa major constellation) that defeats the dragon simply meaning the pole star changed from Draco (the slain dragon) to The plowing man (St George-Ursa major as the plough (the Great Bear) septentriones. So George is a divine name for the constellations that provided the new pole star after Thuban (Alpha Draconis the dragon) was dethroned.
    – Ajagar
    13 hours ago













up vote
6
down vote










up vote
6
down vote









I may add that Charlemagne was almost certainly named Karl or Charles after his grandfather, Charles Martel (c. 688–741). Charles Martel ("The Hammer") ruled the Frankish kingdoms as Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia 715–741, Mayor of the Palace of Neustria 718–741, and Prince and Duke of the Franks 718–741.



Charles Martel would have been named by his father Pepin II "of Herstal", Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia 680-714, Mayor of the Palace of Neustria 687–695, Mayor of the Palace of Burgundy 687-695, Prince and Duke of the Franks 687–714, and his second wife Alpaida.



Wikipedia says:




Charles Martel (686–741) was an illegitimate son of Pepin of Herstal, and therefore indeed a "free man", but not of noble rank. After his victory at the Battle of Soissons (718), Charles Martel styled himself Duke of the Franks. Charles' eldest son was named Carloman (c. 710–754), a rare example of the element carl- occurring in a compound name. The Chronicle of Fredegar names an earlier Carloman as the father of Pepin of Landen, and thus the great-great-grandfather of the Charles Martel. This would place the name Carloman in the 6th century, and open the possibility that the Frankish name Carl may originate as a short form of Carloman. The only other compound name with the Carl- prefix is Carlofred (Carlefred), attested in the 7th century; as a suffix, it occurs in the rare names Altcarl and Gundecarl (9th and 11th centuries, respectively).




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles#Saint_Charles1



Pepin II of Herstal (c.635–714) was the son of Ansegisel (c. 602/610–662/679) and Begga (615–693), the daughter of Pepin I "The Elder", "Of Landen"(c. 580–640) Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia. Pepin I was the son of a Carloman, "Carl Man" or "freeman man" who may have been the source of the name Carl among that family.



So the name Carl or Karl originally meant "freeman", "ordinary, average man", "lowly guy", "generic man", "man", etc. After the reign of Karl der Grosse, "Charles the Great", known in Latin as Carolus Magnus – the source of the French Charlemagne – the name of Charles began to seem very high and exalted.



The word for King in some modern European languages is:



  • Bosnian: Kralji

  • Bulgaria: Kral

  • Croatian: Kralji

  • Czech: Kral

  • Hungarian: Kiraly

  • Latvian: Karalis

  • Lithuanian: Karalius

  • Macedonian: Kral

  • Polish: Krol

  • Russian: Korol

  • Serbian: Kralj

  • Slovak: Kral

  • Slovenian: Kralj

  • Ukranian: Korol

And all those titles are derived from the Germanic name Karl. So in all those languages the word for king basically means "Charles", "Charlemagne-like", or "man". And thus a name originally meaning a lowly and ordinary man has come to mean king in over a dozen languages.






share|improve this answer














I may add that Charlemagne was almost certainly named Karl or Charles after his grandfather, Charles Martel (c. 688–741). Charles Martel ("The Hammer") ruled the Frankish kingdoms as Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia 715–741, Mayor of the Palace of Neustria 718–741, and Prince and Duke of the Franks 718–741.



Charles Martel would have been named by his father Pepin II "of Herstal", Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia 680-714, Mayor of the Palace of Neustria 687–695, Mayor of the Palace of Burgundy 687-695, Prince and Duke of the Franks 687–714, and his second wife Alpaida.



Wikipedia says:




Charles Martel (686–741) was an illegitimate son of Pepin of Herstal, and therefore indeed a "free man", but not of noble rank. After his victory at the Battle of Soissons (718), Charles Martel styled himself Duke of the Franks. Charles' eldest son was named Carloman (c. 710–754), a rare example of the element carl- occurring in a compound name. The Chronicle of Fredegar names an earlier Carloman as the father of Pepin of Landen, and thus the great-great-grandfather of the Charles Martel. This would place the name Carloman in the 6th century, and open the possibility that the Frankish name Carl may originate as a short form of Carloman. The only other compound name with the Carl- prefix is Carlofred (Carlefred), attested in the 7th century; as a suffix, it occurs in the rare names Altcarl and Gundecarl (9th and 11th centuries, respectively).




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles#Saint_Charles1



Pepin II of Herstal (c.635–714) was the son of Ansegisel (c. 602/610–662/679) and Begga (615–693), the daughter of Pepin I "The Elder", "Of Landen"(c. 580–640) Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia. Pepin I was the son of a Carloman, "Carl Man" or "freeman man" who may have been the source of the name Carl among that family.



So the name Carl or Karl originally meant "freeman", "ordinary, average man", "lowly guy", "generic man", "man", etc. After the reign of Karl der Grosse, "Charles the Great", known in Latin as Carolus Magnus – the source of the French Charlemagne – the name of Charles began to seem very high and exalted.



The word for King in some modern European languages is:



  • Bosnian: Kralji

  • Bulgaria: Kral

  • Croatian: Kralji

  • Czech: Kral

  • Hungarian: Kiraly

  • Latvian: Karalis

  • Lithuanian: Karalius

  • Macedonian: Kral

  • Polish: Krol

  • Russian: Korol

  • Serbian: Kralj

  • Slovak: Kral

  • Slovenian: Kralj

  • Ukranian: Korol

And all those titles are derived from the Germanic name Karl. So in all those languages the word for king basically means "Charles", "Charlemagne-like", or "man". And thus a name originally meaning a lowly and ordinary man has come to mean king in over a dozen languages.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 18 hours ago









LangLangC

16.9k35494




16.9k35494










answered 19 hours ago









MAGolding

5,795424




5,795424











  • "basically means" well basically meant 1200 years ago before important sound changes happened. But nobody now thinks about that today, it is just the origin, not the meaning any more.
    – Vladimir F
    14 hours ago






  • 1




    “And all those titles are derived from the Germanic name Karl.“ Where is the evidence that they arent cognates (name and titles) instead of all derived from German Karl? If we look at George it means ‘earth-worker’ and as such refers to Bootes and the Plow (Ursa major constellation) that defeats the dragon simply meaning the pole star changed from Draco (the slain dragon) to The plowing man (St George-Ursa major as the plough (the Great Bear) septentriones. So George is a divine name for the constellations that provided the new pole star after Thuban (Alpha Draconis the dragon) was dethroned.
    – Ajagar
    13 hours ago

















  • "basically means" well basically meant 1200 years ago before important sound changes happened. But nobody now thinks about that today, it is just the origin, not the meaning any more.
    – Vladimir F
    14 hours ago






  • 1




    “And all those titles are derived from the Germanic name Karl.“ Where is the evidence that they arent cognates (name and titles) instead of all derived from German Karl? If we look at George it means ‘earth-worker’ and as such refers to Bootes and the Plow (Ursa major constellation) that defeats the dragon simply meaning the pole star changed from Draco (the slain dragon) to The plowing man (St George-Ursa major as the plough (the Great Bear) septentriones. So George is a divine name for the constellations that provided the new pole star after Thuban (Alpha Draconis the dragon) was dethroned.
    – Ajagar
    13 hours ago
















"basically means" well basically meant 1200 years ago before important sound changes happened. But nobody now thinks about that today, it is just the origin, not the meaning any more.
– Vladimir F
14 hours ago




"basically means" well basically meant 1200 years ago before important sound changes happened. But nobody now thinks about that today, it is just the origin, not the meaning any more.
– Vladimir F
14 hours ago




1




1




“And all those titles are derived from the Germanic name Karl.“ Where is the evidence that they arent cognates (name and titles) instead of all derived from German Karl? If we look at George it means ‘earth-worker’ and as such refers to Bootes and the Plow (Ursa major constellation) that defeats the dragon simply meaning the pole star changed from Draco (the slain dragon) to The plowing man (St George-Ursa major as the plough (the Great Bear) septentriones. So George is a divine name for the constellations that provided the new pole star after Thuban (Alpha Draconis the dragon) was dethroned.
– Ajagar
13 hours ago





“And all those titles are derived from the Germanic name Karl.“ Where is the evidence that they arent cognates (name and titles) instead of all derived from German Karl? If we look at George it means ‘earth-worker’ and as such refers to Bootes and the Plow (Ursa major constellation) that defeats the dragon simply meaning the pole star changed from Draco (the slain dragon) to The plowing man (St George-Ursa major as the plough (the Great Bear) septentriones. So George is a divine name for the constellations that provided the new pole star after Thuban (Alpha Draconis the dragon) was dethroned.
– Ajagar
13 hours ago


















 

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