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Question

So, I'm running an arena-style fight between a lot of PCs. It's now getting to the point that there are few enough PCs that they are beginning to take levels to counter one another.

One of the players is a rogue. At lvl 11, the die roll for ability checks rounds up to 10 when they are proficient - so for a rogue with a dexterity of 20 and expertise in Stealth, the minimum Stealth check is 23. Two levels later at 13, it rises to 25, and eventually to 27 at lvl 17.

The first situation is difficult enough for opposing characters, but by lvl 17, only Perception-proficient characters who have good wisdom even have a chance of spotting the rogue.

I know some of the casters have their own advantages in class features (Hold Person is pretty lethal), but those all require a save at least. The rogue can shoot from hiding every turn and re-hide, dealing several dozen damage and being near-impossibe to find. Besides staying in open areas without places to hide, what could any other PCs do to have a chance at winning?

Both numerical and strategic considerations are appreciated. No UA or homebrew is allowed, for obvious reasons.

Does "an arena-style fight" suppose there is nowhere to hide, doesn't it? — 53 mins ago

score 4 · Answer 1 · 2018-10-02 17:36:37Z

Two options, but first, something to understand...

Acquiring Stealth in combat means your opponent lost track of where you are right now, it does not mean that your previous location was erased from their mind. Nor does Stealth make you invisible.

Physically Go Looking For Them

Remember that Stealth stops working if it makes sense that it stopped working. If a Rogue is hiding behind a pillar and you walk around the side of the pillar to where you have practically run into the Rogue (obviously, they no longer have Cover or Concealment from you)...their Stealth fails because, as mentioned, they are not invisible...and there is no conceivable way they can continue hiding with nothing to hide behind.

So, a smart character will do like the guards do in Stealth games...go to the last place you saw that character, then check hiding places near where you last saw them. If at any point the seeker has a clear line-of-sight on the hider, they have found them.

In this case, it becomes a game of Cat and Mouse with the Rogue, where they have to Hide, then maneuver to somewhere they are likely to stay hidden even when the person they just shot comes looking for them.

Area of Effect abilities

If you know where you last saw that Rogue, there's no reason you couldn't just fill that corner of the room with a Fireball. A reasonably intelligent individual could look at the last place they saw the Rogue, make a ballpark guess about where they could be based on how fast you know they can move and where they could go and still be concealed from you, then just blow that entire area up.

Aside: If you're going to AoE, pick spells that don't do Dex Saves if you can....Rogues are really good at evading damage from those. — 43 mins ago

cpcodes 1,32517 · Answer 2 · 2018-10-02 17:43:55Z

The ever handy "readied action"

Any player can ready an attack for when the rogue reveals himself, thus getting to act before the rogue is able to re-hide. Ranged attacks work best for this, of course, unless the PC is also the victim of the attack in which the rogue reveals himself.

user48255 62517 · Answer 3 · 2018-10-02 17:46:31Z

There a few options.

Ready an action

The non-rogue combatant can Ready an action and have the trigger be when their opponent emerges from hiding. The Rogue will need to break cover to make an attack, thus triggering the Readied action. For a Fighter that might mean picking up a bow and returning fire. For a Wizard, they might try Hold Person to prevent the Rogue from returning to Hiding. Any class should have at least a few choices.

Affect the terrain

The effectiveness of this option will depend on your arenas, but if there's only a few places to hide, it may be possible to destroy them. If the Rogue is repeatedly hiding in bushes, a nice Fireball (or other Fire spell, or some Alchemist's Fire for the non-casters) may limit or eliminate the Rogue's hiding places as the plant life bursts into flame. A non-caster might be able to smash the pillars or crates that the Rogue's been hiding behind. Remember that you can't Hide without something to Hide behind.

Find some cover

The converse of the previous option. If your arena is loaded with hiding places, there may be some where the non-Rogue combatant has Total Cover from the Rogue's hiding spot. This would force the Rogue to come out of hiding in order to get a line of sight on the other combatant.

score 1 · Answer 4 · 2018-10-02 18:13:41Z

There are several options, some more devastating than others.

I'll list my three favorite ones here:

Chase the Rogue

As Guildsbounty mentioned, a hidden Rogue isn't invisible: it just means their enemies have lost track of where they are. But their enemies still know where they were. You can run behind the last object you saw the Rogue go behind. Unless the rogue is moving particularly quickly, the Rogue is likely now visible. However, you should note that even while visible, the rogue may still be hidden. However, they at least will no longer be "unseen", which means they will not gain advantage on an attack roll made against their pursuer (which is crucial: more on that later).

Ready Actions

A rogue will give away their possition when they attack. So you can ready an action to injure the rogue when you locate him or her. This tactic is somewhat flawed for a couple of reasons. For one thing, you'll usually need to be attacked before you take your held action, which could mean you'll take considerable damage. For another thing, if you're a martial class you'll lose access to your Extra Attacks, and if you're a spellcaster you'll need to maintain concentration on your readied spell (particularly problematic if you're going to be attacked before you cast the spell). But still, it will permit you to do some damage to the rogue whenever it pops it attacks you. This leads me to a third and crucial tactic.

Give the Rogue Disadvantage on their attack

There are several ways to do this: you could become invisible yourself (or simply obscure your location through a spell like Darkness or Fog Cloud), or restrain the rogue somehow (like through the Entangle spell) or simply go prone if the rogue is using ranged attacks (and can't walk up to you safely). Whatever method you chose, you need to ensure that the rogue doesn't have advantage when attacking you.

Note that the rules on advantage and disadvantage state:

If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20. This is true even if multiple circumstances impose disadvantage and only one grants advantage or vice versa. In such a situation, you have neither advantage nor disadvantage. (PHB, p. 173)

Since advantage and disadvantage cancel (no matter how many times each is applied), that means that if you somehow do something which imposes disadvantage on the rogue's attacks, the rogue cannot then gain advantage (no matter what other sources of advantage they have). The rogue will be attacking you without advantage, and (since this is PvP, presumably) without another enemy of yours within 5' of you. That means that you've removed one of their most essential features: their Sneak Attack. Without it, a rogue's damage output plummets. They're essentially a martial class with a single attack per round, and lower hit points.

A spellcaster who simply goes prone and readies a fireball (or more likely "shatter" to circumvent the Uncanny Dodge) every turn will quickly see the rogue's tactic fail spectacularly. A martial character may have a more difficult time, but they will likely find themselves dealing as much damage as the rogue every round if they ready actions while prone (again, make sure the rogue can't reach you), while sporting higher hit points.

No class is designed to be completely independent: we all rely on the support of our fellow party members in ways we may not even realize. A rogue, without companions to distract enemies or give them sneak attack opportunities, may find themselves acutely aware of how much their class is not designed to fight a canny enemy alone.

_{NOTE: Sneak attack does not require the Rogue to have an ally within 5' of their target, but rather an enemy of the target to be within 5' of it. So in a massive PvP arena, it's possible the rogue could still target a person who is imposing disadvantage on attack rolls, and still gain sneak attack. Particulars of the battle (how far away you can get from other characters, for example) will make this more or less effective.}

score 4 · Answer 5 · 2018-10-02 17:36:37Z

Two options, but first, something to understand...

Acquiring Stealth in combat means your opponent lost track of where you are right now, it does not mean that your previous location was erased from their mind. Nor does Stealth make you invisible.

Physically Go Looking For Them

Remember that Stealth stops working if it makes sense that it stopped working. If a Rogue is hiding behind a pillar and you walk around the side of the pillar to where you have practically run into the Rogue (obviously, they no longer have Cover or Concealment from you)...their Stealth fails because, as mentioned, they are not invisible...and there is no conceivable way they can continue hiding with nothing to hide behind.

So, a smart character will do like the guards do in Stealth games...go to the last place you saw that character, then check hiding places near where you last saw them. If at any point the seeker has a clear line-of-sight on the hider, they have found them.

In this case, it becomes a game of Cat and Mouse with the Rogue, where they have to Hide, then maneuver to somewhere they are likely to stay hidden even when the person they just shot comes looking for them.

Area of Effect abilities

If you know where you last saw that Rogue, there's no reason you couldn't just fill that corner of the room with a Fireball. A reasonably intelligent individual could look at the last place they saw the Rogue, make a ballpark guess about where they could be based on how fast you know they can move and where they could go and still be concealed from you, then just blow that entire area up.

Aside: If you're going to AoE, pick spells that don't do Dex Saves if you can....Rogues are really good at evading damage from those. — 43 mins ago

cpcodes 1,32517 · Answer 6 · 2018-10-02 17:43:55Z

The ever handy "readied action"

Any player can ready an attack for when the rogue reveals himself, thus getting to act before the rogue is able to re-hide. Ranged attacks work best for this, of course, unless the PC is also the victim of the attack in which the rogue reveals himself.

user48255 62517 · Answer 7 · 2018-10-02 17:46:31Z

There a few options.

Ready an action

The non-rogue combatant can Ready an action and have the trigger be when their opponent emerges from hiding. The Rogue will need to break cover to make an attack, thus triggering the Readied action. For a Fighter that might mean picking up a bow and returning fire. For a Wizard, they might try Hold Person to prevent the Rogue from returning to Hiding. Any class should have at least a few choices.

Affect the terrain

The effectiveness of this option will depend on your arenas, but if there's only a few places to hide, it may be possible to destroy them. If the Rogue is repeatedly hiding in bushes, a nice Fireball (or other Fire spell, or some Alchemist's Fire for the non-casters) may limit or eliminate the Rogue's hiding places as the plant life bursts into flame. A non-caster might be able to smash the pillars or crates that the Rogue's been hiding behind. Remember that you can't Hide without something to Hide behind.

Find some cover

The converse of the previous option. If your arena is loaded with hiding places, there may be some where the non-Rogue combatant has Total Cover from the Rogue's hiding spot. This would force the Rogue to come out of hiding in order to get a line of sight on the other combatant.

score 1 · Answer 8 · 2018-10-02 18:13:41Z

There are several options, some more devastating than others.

I'll list my three favorite ones here:

Chase the Rogue

As Guildsbounty mentioned, a hidden Rogue isn't invisible: it just means their enemies have lost track of where they are. But their enemies still know where they were. You can run behind the last object you saw the Rogue go behind. Unless the rogue is moving particularly quickly, the Rogue is likely now visible. However, you should note that even while visible, the rogue may still be hidden. However, they at least will no longer be "unseen", which means they will not gain advantage on an attack roll made against their pursuer (which is crucial: more on that later).

Ready Actions

A rogue will give away their possition when they attack. So you can ready an action to injure the rogue when you locate him or her. This tactic is somewhat flawed for a couple of reasons. For one thing, you'll usually need to be attacked before you take your held action, which could mean you'll take considerable damage. For another thing, if you're a martial class you'll lose access to your Extra Attacks, and if you're a spellcaster you'll need to maintain concentration on your readied spell (particularly problematic if you're going to be attacked before you cast the spell). But still, it will permit you to do some damage to the rogue whenever it pops it attacks you. This leads me to a third and crucial tactic.

Give the Rogue Disadvantage on their attack

There are several ways to do this: you could become invisible yourself (or simply obscure your location through a spell like Darkness or Fog Cloud), or restrain the rogue somehow (like through the Entangle spell) or simply go prone if the rogue is using ranged attacks (and can't walk up to you safely). Whatever method you chose, you need to ensure that the rogue doesn't have advantage when attacking you.

Note that the rules on advantage and disadvantage state:

If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20. This is true even if multiple circumstances impose disadvantage and only one grants advantage or vice versa. In such a situation, you have neither advantage nor disadvantage. (PHB, p. 173)

Since advantage and disadvantage cancel (no matter how many times each is applied), that means that if you somehow do something which imposes disadvantage on the rogue's attacks, the rogue cannot then gain advantage (no matter what other sources of advantage they have). The rogue will be attacking you without advantage, and (since this is PvP, presumably) without another enemy of yours within 5' of you. That means that you've removed one of their most essential features: their Sneak Attack. Without it, a rogue's damage output plummets. They're essentially a martial class with a single attack per round, and lower hit points.

A spellcaster who simply goes prone and readies a fireball (or more likely "shatter" to circumvent the Uncanny Dodge) every turn will quickly see the rogue's tactic fail spectacularly. A martial character may have a more difficult time, but they will likely find themselves dealing as much damage as the rogue every round if they ready actions while prone (again, make sure the rogue can't reach you), while sporting higher hit points.

No class is designed to be completely independent: we all rely on the support of our fellow party members in ways we may not even realize. A rogue, without companions to distract enemies or give them sneak attack opportunities, may find themselves acutely aware of how much their class is not designed to fight a canny enemy alone.

_{NOTE: Sneak attack does not require the Rogue to have an ally within 5' of their target, but rather an enemy of the target to be within 5' of it. So in a massive PvP arena, it's possible the rogue could still target a person who is imposing disadvantage on attack rolls, and still gain sneak attack. Particulars of the battle (how far away you can get from other characters, for example) will make this more or less effective.}

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PvP with a Rogue and Stealth

4 Answers 4

Physically Go Looking For Them

Area of Effect abilities

The ever handy "readied action"

Ready an action

Affect the terrain

Find some cover

Chase the Rogue

Ready Actions

Give the Rogue Disadvantage on their attack

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4 Answers 4

4 Answers 4

Physically Go Looking For Them

Area of Effect abilities

Physically Go Looking For Them

Area of Effect abilities

Physically Go Looking For Them

Area of Effect abilities

Physically Go Looking For Them

Area of Effect abilities

The ever handy "readied action"

The ever handy "readied action"

The ever handy "readied action"

The ever handy "readied action"

Ready an action

Affect the terrain

Find some cover

Ready an action

Affect the terrain

Find some cover

Ready an action

Affect the terrain

Find some cover

Ready an action

Affect the terrain

Find some cover

Chase the Rogue

Ready Actions

Give the Rogue Disadvantage on their attack

Chase the Rogue

Ready Actions

Give the Rogue Disadvantage on their attack

Chase the Rogue

Ready Actions

Give the Rogue Disadvantage on their attack

Chase the Rogue

Ready Actions

Give the Rogue Disadvantage on their attack

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