How can I indicate that a particular relationship between two male characters is purely brotherly (Philia) rather than romantic (Eros)?

The name of the pictureThe name of the pictureThe name of the pictureClash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP











up vote
13
down vote

favorite
3












One of the four forms of love Greek philosophy recognised, Philia is usually translated as "brotherly love". It is the love between true friends. It was considered a "higher form" of love than Eros - the romantic, sexual love. Philia is what Kirk and Spock shared, for example.



And the reason I chose Kirk and Spock as my example is of course the incredible amount of slash-fic that pairs those two together.



How can I indicate that a particular relationship is all Philia, no Eros involved? The tricky thing is, it is love, not "just" friendship. I've written two characters who share a very strong emotional bond, they are more devoted to each other than they are to their wives. It's just not an "Eros" bond. I would have thought that the fact they both have wives would be enough, but for all that Kirk is known for ogling (to say the least) every female human or alien around, and never does he show any similar attraction towards men, he's still getting paired with Spock.



(To clarify, it's not that I have anything against LGBT characters. I've got several LGBT characters. It's just that sometimes two characters do not have Eros for each other. They have Philia. They share a strong emotional bond, in which sexual attraction plays no part. That's what my question is about. Nor am I implying that only men can experience Philia. But for some reason, a strong bond between female friends is accepted, whereas whenever men are involved, sexual overtones get added in.)



Philia is different from Platonic love, to which this question relates: platonic love implies that physical attraction is at least possible, but decided against (see Wikipedia source). Philia is deeper than platonic love, or Eros, and has no Eros component even potentially. In a way, contrary to the other question, this is a love story - just not the romantic kind of love.






characters







share|improve this question



















  • 6




    Possible duplicate of How do I convey that a relationship is platonic?
    – wetcircuit
    2 days ago






  • 5




    I don't think the question is a duplicate, as it is particular to two male characters who will inevitably have a different friendship dynamic to navigate than a male and female character.
    – sudowoodo
    yesterday






  • 4




    I think the problem is you've imagined a line that you don't want to cross, but you've not done the work to bring us anywhere near that line, so it really doesn't seem like an issue at all since that "line" is at best fringe "wishful thinking". It's like you have a thought experiment that you want to be more controversial, when it's actually the default in literature since forever. You need to provide us with instances where the default platonic standard fails before we can "solve a problem" that doesn't exist. The regular writing trick is to heteronormatize them, which it sounds like you did.
    – wetcircuit
    yesterday







  • 3




    @sudowoodo I think by allowed she means the whole topic of this question, how to write Philia without it being assumed the characters are gay. Obviously nobody makes rules about how she can write, her concern is about how it is perceived, and the craft of how to write such a relationship without most readers inferring an erotic component to the relationship, either explicit or suppressed. This is a question about the craft of writing. And because it is, I don 't know why it has any 'close' votes!
    – Amadeus
    yesterday






  • 3




    @Amadeus In that case, I think the answers to the linked question are sufficient. I'm just making sure the real question here isn't How do I stop shippers from shipping? because the answer to that would be: you can't.
    – sudowoodo
    yesterday














up vote
13
down vote

favorite
3












One of the four forms of love Greek philosophy recognised, Philia is usually translated as "brotherly love". It is the love between true friends. It was considered a "higher form" of love than Eros - the romantic, sexual love. Philia is what Kirk and Spock shared, for example.



And the reason I chose Kirk and Spock as my example is of course the incredible amount of slash-fic that pairs those two together.



How can I indicate that a particular relationship is all Philia, no Eros involved? The tricky thing is, it is love, not "just" friendship. I've written two characters who share a very strong emotional bond, they are more devoted to each other than they are to their wives. It's just not an "Eros" bond. I would have thought that the fact they both have wives would be enough, but for all that Kirk is known for ogling (to say the least) every female human or alien around, and never does he show any similar attraction towards men, he's still getting paired with Spock.



(To clarify, it's not that I have anything against LGBT characters. I've got several LGBT characters. It's just that sometimes two characters do not have Eros for each other. They have Philia. They share a strong emotional bond, in which sexual attraction plays no part. That's what my question is about. Nor am I implying that only men can experience Philia. But for some reason, a strong bond between female friends is accepted, whereas whenever men are involved, sexual overtones get added in.)



Philia is different from Platonic love, to which this question relates: platonic love implies that physical attraction is at least possible, but decided against (see Wikipedia source). Philia is deeper than platonic love, or Eros, and has no Eros component even potentially. In a way, contrary to the other question, this is a love story - just not the romantic kind of love.






characters







share|improve this question



















  • 6




    Possible duplicate of How do I convey that a relationship is platonic?
    – wetcircuit
    2 days ago






  • 5




    I don't think the question is a duplicate, as it is particular to two male characters who will inevitably have a different friendship dynamic to navigate than a male and female character.
    – sudowoodo
    yesterday






  • 4




    I think the problem is you've imagined a line that you don't want to cross, but you've not done the work to bring us anywhere near that line, so it really doesn't seem like an issue at all since that "line" is at best fringe "wishful thinking". It's like you have a thought experiment that you want to be more controversial, when it's actually the default in literature since forever. You need to provide us with instances where the default platonic standard fails before we can "solve a problem" that doesn't exist. The regular writing trick is to heteronormatize them, which it sounds like you did.
    – wetcircuit
    yesterday







  • 3




    @sudowoodo I think by allowed she means the whole topic of this question, how to write Philia without it being assumed the characters are gay. Obviously nobody makes rules about how she can write, her concern is about how it is perceived, and the craft of how to write such a relationship without most readers inferring an erotic component to the relationship, either explicit or suppressed. This is a question about the craft of writing. And because it is, I don 't know why it has any 'close' votes!
    – Amadeus
    yesterday






  • 3




    @Amadeus In that case, I think the answers to the linked question are sufficient. I'm just making sure the real question here isn't How do I stop shippers from shipping? because the answer to that would be: you can't.
    – sudowoodo
    yesterday












up vote
13
down vote

favorite
3









up vote
13
down vote

favorite
3






3





One of the four forms of love Greek philosophy recognised, Philia is usually translated as "brotherly love". It is the love between true friends. It was considered a "higher form" of love than Eros - the romantic, sexual love. Philia is what Kirk and Spock shared, for example.



And the reason I chose Kirk and Spock as my example is of course the incredible amount of slash-fic that pairs those two together.



How can I indicate that a particular relationship is all Philia, no Eros involved? The tricky thing is, it is love, not "just" friendship. I've written two characters who share a very strong emotional bond, they are more devoted to each other than they are to their wives. It's just not an "Eros" bond. I would have thought that the fact they both have wives would be enough, but for all that Kirk is known for ogling (to say the least) every female human or alien around, and never does he show any similar attraction towards men, he's still getting paired with Spock.



(To clarify, it's not that I have anything against LGBT characters. I've got several LGBT characters. It's just that sometimes two characters do not have Eros for each other. They have Philia. They share a strong emotional bond, in which sexual attraction plays no part. That's what my question is about. Nor am I implying that only men can experience Philia. But for some reason, a strong bond between female friends is accepted, whereas whenever men are involved, sexual overtones get added in.)



Philia is different from Platonic love, to which this question relates: platonic love implies that physical attraction is at least possible, but decided against (see Wikipedia source). Philia is deeper than platonic love, or Eros, and has no Eros component even potentially. In a way, contrary to the other question, this is a love story - just not the romantic kind of love.






characters







share|improve this question















One of the four forms of love Greek philosophy recognised, Philia is usually translated as "brotherly love". It is the love between true friends. It was considered a "higher form" of love than Eros - the romantic, sexual love. Philia is what Kirk and Spock shared, for example.



And the reason I chose Kirk and Spock as my example is of course the incredible amount of slash-fic that pairs those two together.



How can I indicate that a particular relationship is all Philia, no Eros involved? The tricky thing is, it is love, not "just" friendship. I've written two characters who share a very strong emotional bond, they are more devoted to each other than they are to their wives. It's just not an "Eros" bond. I would have thought that the fact they both have wives would be enough, but for all that Kirk is known for ogling (to say the least) every female human or alien around, and never does he show any similar attraction towards men, he's still getting paired with Spock.



(To clarify, it's not that I have anything against LGBT characters. I've got several LGBT characters. It's just that sometimes two characters do not have Eros for each other. They have Philia. They share a strong emotional bond, in which sexual attraction plays no part. That's what my question is about. Nor am I implying that only men can experience Philia. But for some reason, a strong bond between female friends is accepted, whereas whenever men are involved, sexual overtones get added in.)



Philia is different from Platonic love, to which this question relates: platonic love implies that physical attraction is at least possible, but decided against (see Wikipedia source). Philia is deeper than platonic love, or Eros, and has no Eros component even potentially. In a way, contrary to the other question, this is a love story - just not the romantic kind of love.






characters




characters






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 16 mins ago

























asked 2 days ago









Galastel

20k351114




20k351114







  • 6




    Possible duplicate of How do I convey that a relationship is platonic?
    – wetcircuit
    2 days ago






  • 5




    I don't think the question is a duplicate, as it is particular to two male characters who will inevitably have a different friendship dynamic to navigate than a male and female character.
    – sudowoodo
    yesterday






  • 4




    I think the problem is you've imagined a line that you don't want to cross, but you've not done the work to bring us anywhere near that line, so it really doesn't seem like an issue at all since that "line" is at best fringe "wishful thinking". It's like you have a thought experiment that you want to be more controversial, when it's actually the default in literature since forever. You need to provide us with instances where the default platonic standard fails before we can "solve a problem" that doesn't exist. The regular writing trick is to heteronormatize them, which it sounds like you did.
    – wetcircuit
    yesterday







  • 3




    @sudowoodo I think by allowed she means the whole topic of this question, how to write Philia without it being assumed the characters are gay. Obviously nobody makes rules about how she can write, her concern is about how it is perceived, and the craft of how to write such a relationship without most readers inferring an erotic component to the relationship, either explicit or suppressed. This is a question about the craft of writing. And because it is, I don 't know why it has any 'close' votes!
    – Amadeus
    yesterday






  • 3




    @Amadeus In that case, I think the answers to the linked question are sufficient. I'm just making sure the real question here isn't How do I stop shippers from shipping? because the answer to that would be: you can't.
    – sudowoodo
    yesterday












  • 6




    Possible duplicate of How do I convey that a relationship is platonic?
    – wetcircuit
    2 days ago






  • 5




    I don't think the question is a duplicate, as it is particular to two male characters who will inevitably have a different friendship dynamic to navigate than a male and female character.
    – sudowoodo
    yesterday






  • 4




    I think the problem is you've imagined a line that you don't want to cross, but you've not done the work to bring us anywhere near that line, so it really doesn't seem like an issue at all since that "line" is at best fringe "wishful thinking". It's like you have a thought experiment that you want to be more controversial, when it's actually the default in literature since forever. You need to provide us with instances where the default platonic standard fails before we can "solve a problem" that doesn't exist. The regular writing trick is to heteronormatize them, which it sounds like you did.
    – wetcircuit
    yesterday







  • 3




    @sudowoodo I think by allowed she means the whole topic of this question, how to write Philia without it being assumed the characters are gay. Obviously nobody makes rules about how she can write, her concern is about how it is perceived, and the craft of how to write such a relationship without most readers inferring an erotic component to the relationship, either explicit or suppressed. This is a question about the craft of writing. And because it is, I don 't know why it has any 'close' votes!
    – Amadeus
    yesterday






  • 3




    @Amadeus In that case, I think the answers to the linked question are sufficient. I'm just making sure the real question here isn't How do I stop shippers from shipping? because the answer to that would be: you can't.
    – sudowoodo
    yesterday







6




6




Possible duplicate of How do I convey that a relationship is platonic?
– wetcircuit
2 days ago




Possible duplicate of How do I convey that a relationship is platonic?
– wetcircuit
2 days ago




5




5




I don't think the question is a duplicate, as it is particular to two male characters who will inevitably have a different friendship dynamic to navigate than a male and female character.
– sudowoodo
yesterday




I don't think the question is a duplicate, as it is particular to two male characters who will inevitably have a different friendship dynamic to navigate than a male and female character.
– sudowoodo
yesterday




4




4




I think the problem is you've imagined a line that you don't want to cross, but you've not done the work to bring us anywhere near that line, so it really doesn't seem like an issue at all since that "line" is at best fringe "wishful thinking". It's like you have a thought experiment that you want to be more controversial, when it's actually the default in literature since forever. You need to provide us with instances where the default platonic standard fails before we can "solve a problem" that doesn't exist. The regular writing trick is to heteronormatize them, which it sounds like you did.
– wetcircuit
yesterday





I think the problem is you've imagined a line that you don't want to cross, but you've not done the work to bring us anywhere near that line, so it really doesn't seem like an issue at all since that "line" is at best fringe "wishful thinking". It's like you have a thought experiment that you want to be more controversial, when it's actually the default in literature since forever. You need to provide us with instances where the default platonic standard fails before we can "solve a problem" that doesn't exist. The regular writing trick is to heteronormatize them, which it sounds like you did.
– wetcircuit
yesterday





3




3




@sudowoodo I think by allowed she means the whole topic of this question, how to write Philia without it being assumed the characters are gay. Obviously nobody makes rules about how she can write, her concern is about how it is perceived, and the craft of how to write such a relationship without most readers inferring an erotic component to the relationship, either explicit or suppressed. This is a question about the craft of writing. And because it is, I don 't know why it has any 'close' votes!
– Amadeus
yesterday




@sudowoodo I think by allowed she means the whole topic of this question, how to write Philia without it being assumed the characters are gay. Obviously nobody makes rules about how she can write, her concern is about how it is perceived, and the craft of how to write such a relationship without most readers inferring an erotic component to the relationship, either explicit or suppressed. This is a question about the craft of writing. And because it is, I don 't know why it has any 'close' votes!
– Amadeus
yesterday




3




3




@Amadeus In that case, I think the answers to the linked question are sufficient. I'm just making sure the real question here isn't How do I stop shippers from shipping? because the answer to that would be: you can't.
– sudowoodo
yesterday




@Amadeus In that case, I think the answers to the linked question are sufficient. I'm just making sure the real question here isn't How do I stop shippers from shipping? because the answer to that would be: you can't.
– sudowoodo
yesterday










9 Answers
9






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
17
down vote














But for some reason, a strong bond between female friends is accepted,
whereas whenever men are involved, sexual overtones get added in




I hear this a lot. ‘Let men just be friends!’ And I’m all for it. Men should be free to show affection, vulnerability, and closeness in their friendships just the way women are. It is so uncommon (in western society, at least), that some people find it jarring and immediately jump to the idea that the relationship must be romantic/sexual, because men are only supposed to act that way with their romantic/sexual partners.



On the other hand, have you ever heard a queer woman tell a story of the many times her partner was determinedly referred to as her friend in various scenarios, at a dinner date, holding hands walking down the street, shopping for a bed in IKEA? It’s funny isn’t it? If you want readers to believe your two female characters are falling in love, you better beat them over the head with it. But the lines between friendship and romance may be more blurry than we realise.



So let’s try an exercise. Imagine one of your characters is a woman, the other still a man, and no other aspect of the relationship has changed. Do you think readers would be able to discern the platonic nature? Might the reader still expect this friendship to evolve into romance later, because that’s just what happens in stories?



The common perception of shippers is that they’re squealing schoolgirls who just want to see boys kiss. But there is a significant audience of LGBT folk who simply ship because it feels natural and normal for two same sex characters with a strong bond to fall in love, just as it will feel natural and normal to a straight audience for a male-female friendship to tend that way. The difference is, we don't get to see a whole lot of it in media. Shipping is our representation. Sometimes it's the representation all we have.



The other difference is in the reaction to that assumption. If someone was to ask a man and woman with a close friendship if they are a couple, they will probably just deny it while laughing it off. When it’s two men with a close friendship, there’s discomfort. There’s offense. There’s this whole ‘Let men just be friends without it being gay!’ thing. Well, what's wrong if it had been gay? It’s so subtly homophobic, but significant nonetheless. You can deconstruct the toxic masculinity of denying men close friendships without throwing queer men under the bus.



So my advice is to look at this similar question and do exactly what you would do if your philia pair was a guy and a girl. Don’t make jokes to brush it off. Don't worry about shippers. People are still going to ship them no matter what, and that’s valid. There’s no need to be put off by it.






share|improve this answer


















  • 3




    +1 Unless the OP intends to address "gay panic", the answers at the other question about platonic friends all apply. Your answer addresses the real issue behind the question. Not showing their friendship, but making sure everyone knows "they're not gay". Does it make any difference to the story if it is mutually platonic, unrequited, or friends with benefits? HOW does it change the story? Why is it important to let everyone know this detail, is it the normal assumption of the storyworld? Will both characters be explaining this to their parents who keep hoping for wedding bells?
    – wetcircuit
    yesterday






  • 1




    @wetcircuit I think it DOES make a difference to the story if there is erotic attraction or not; and it makes a difference in reader expectations, which an author has an explicit agenda and responsibility to manage. If the reader is given to expect these guys will end up lovers, they may be disappointed when it doesn't happen, and their dissatisfaction with the ending is as much of a problem for the author as a deus ex machina or illogical ending. Most writers here hope to sell a story, not write only for themselves. This question is about managing reader expectations, for a satisfying ending.
    – Amadeus
    yesterday






  • 1




    @eyeballfrog Discomfort because of falsehoods being spoken about you and discomfort and offense because of internalised homophobia are different. I'm speaking of the latter.
    – sudowoodo
    yesterday






  • 4




    @Amadeus I don't think wetcircuit is saying it doesn't matter, but asking why OP thinks this might be an issue to begin with. As you've said, same sex Philia and same sex Eros are very distinct, and the average reader will not jump immediately from 'these guys are buddies' to 'these guys are boning.' The average reader doesn't mistake Kirk and Spock's Philia as Eros. But shippers are always going to ship, whether it has sound footing in canon or not. You can't stop it, nor should you want to.
    – sudowoodo
    yesterday







  • 1




    @sudowoodo They are different, but the way your post is worded makes it sound like the only reason a person would be uncomfortable with being mistaken for gay is internalized homophobia. If that was not your intention, fair enough, though you might want to be more clear about that.
    – eyeballfrog
    13 hours ago

















up vote
9
down vote













I don't know if this helps, but I think war movies do this very well. The Deer Hunter, Saving Private Ryan, some movies involving gangs, or cops on a mission. The series Vikings has elements of this brotherly love too. Many police movies and series show the same thing amongst fellow cops without making it sexual; on NCIS we don't think the main character Jethro Gibbs is in romantic love with any of the several men he has had close relationships with, or even lived with. But he is stoic, doesn't like to talk, and all these men have been in the trenches with him, in either war or police work. When they hang out, they do male things, eat steak and watch football (a metaphor for war).



I'm analyzing off the top of my head, so your own interpretation is as valid as mine, but I think the lethal consequences of conflict can plausibly offset any Eros in the relationship and the risks taken together or for each other prove the "love" aspect you are looking for.



Any form of tenderness (holding hands, kissing, banging it out) is just not in the cards in such situations; and the male characters never have any "tender moments" with each other, they aren't gazing into each other's eyes. Typically when relating any emotional back story, men are not looking at each other, and if one gets emotional the other responds more stoically, and briefly without elaboration. "That sucks, dude." That's it.



The love between them is seldom stated, it is proven by heroic action when the other is in trouble. From memory, I believe they most commonly refer to each other as brothers, not friends, to emphasize the greater commitment. It's a handy tool, because it also reduces any expectation of homosexuality and most people are more ready to accept brothers (or a father and son if the age difference is great enough) can have a deeper non-sexual relationship. You can see this in the film Four Brothers, with Mark Wahlberg: four men (two black, two white), all adopted by the same woman, come together for her funeral ... and to kill the man that murdered her. A war movie of sorts, but you never feel like these men were ever lovers. For one they are all too callous (playing against common gay stereotypes) and secondly the story gives us a very good reason for them to love each other, they grew up together in a rough neighborhood and despite their lethal toughness, they all loved the same kind mother.



IN general I'd say you need a good reason for this philial friendship to exist, and to be plausible, it likely needs to involve mutual protection and co-dependence in response to a dangerous environment. Either one in the past which they both survived, or one in the present where they need each other to survive.



Also, "dangerous" could be metaphorical; entailing political or financial or social survival. In the original premise of "Suits", the friendship of Mike and Harvey is philial, but they share a lie that can cost them a fortune and their careers. (The risk taken by Harvey in not exposing Mike's lie proves his philial love for Mike.)






share|improve this answer
















  • 2




    Of course the two things I'm working on right now are a sci-fi war novel with a gay MC couple, and a fantasy novel where two childhood friends share a strong philia bond, and do "manly" things like being together in the Hammam. :D Your answer is actually helpful: since it seems I must work against readers' expectations, it helps to see what those expectations are.
    – Galastel
    yesterday






  • 1




    @Galastel For the fantasy friends, some past mutual bailouts in adventures as children can serve. give them something to talk about in the Hammam; "I saved your ass in the cave," vs "So I could save your ass on the cliff!". But with more imagination. For male friends it is often important to feel like equals, or in some way equally superior: e.g. I have one cool skill, my friend has a different cool skill, and we both know and acknowledge that. So neither feels subordinated to the other, or resents the advantages of the other. They want to feel better as a team tackling the world together.
    – Amadeus
    yesterday










  • Gibbs being so much as referenced is enough to warrant a +1. That said, I do like the angle you took this. Using less frequently homo-erotically romanticized characters is a great way to make suggestions for this. That said, I think it also helps that the demographic for these examples tend to also be a bit older, with some exceptions (late 20s and up).
    – Sora Tamashii
    yesterday

















up vote
7
down vote













Shippers will always mistake close friendships as homosexual, because of all the natural chemistry that comes with written close friendships. Folks will have 'shipping goggles' on no matter what, and open affection between guys (who in fiction and real life alike are expected to be cold, distant and aloof to anyone that isn't their romantic interest) is often just the fuel shippers need.



In terms of how to deal with the phenomenon that is shipping goggles, I'd recommend lampshading it from time to time; accept that it's going to happen and that you can't mind-control readers prone to that sort of thing.



I have a pair of vitriolic best buds in my story, one being a naturally gentle, intellectual and paternal man who's thrust into a leadership position and the other a confrontational, callous, extremely talented archer who can't teach archery to save his life because his skill's largely innate. They argue all the time, but underneath it all, they both like each other and uncompromisingly act in each other's best interests.



When they have a particularly bad argument at one point in the story, they hug it out after making up. Here is where I lay the acknowledgement of the shippers; the callous, brusque one puts on fake machismo saying 'this is so inverted' (the in-universe term for homoexuality; 'this is pretty gay' is the modern equivalent), and the gentle, paternal one then saying 'you don't have to dismiss friendship as inverted, just accept the hug and move on'.



Essentially I both acknowledge the shipping goggles present and roundly mock the idea of it being canon in one fell swoop, while also having a thematic exploration in-universe (namely, deconstructing the idea that all men have to be unfeeling to their friends).






share|improve this answer




















  • "Shippers"? What's that?
    – Ken Mohnkern
    yesterday






  • 3




    @KenMohnkern People that are invested in the romantic relationships (shortened to 'ships') in fiction. They're everywhere. For example, with the modern series Sherlock, it's just an assumption that 80% of the female fandom ships Sherlock and Watson.
    – Matthew Dave
    yesterday






  • 6




    Note that preventing shipping is completely impossible in the general case. Some readers will happily ship characters that have never met, have nothing in common, are of widely differing ages, have repeatedly tried to kill one another, etc., and there's nothing the author can do to stop it.
    – Kevin
    yesterday







  • 2




    Shipping is an important extreme to consider, but most shippers don't usually write slashfics. A lot do, but only a fringe percentage actually get to that point. To me, the OP seems more concerned about the fujoshi/fudanshi subset of shippers as opposed to the unit on whole.
    – Sora Tamashii
    yesterday










  • "Hang a lampshade on it." Acknowledge it so it can be dismissed, then move on.
    – wetcircuit
    16 hours ago

















up vote
7
down vote













It's not you, it's readers




How can I indicate that a particular relationship is all Philia, no Eros involved?




You can't. It's not you; it's them.



When someone ships Spock and Kirk or the Winchesters or Batman and Robin, they are not saying anything about how the characters were written. They are saying that they perceive characteristics about the characters that they would like to see the characters together.



The same thing is true of opposite sex shipping. Many times fans will want to pair characters even if there is no reason to put the two together. Part of this is that movies and TV tend to include romantic relationships to broaden the story's impact. People who don't like the main plot may still enjoy the subplot. They may identify with half of the pair and be attracted to the other half. Speculating about such relationships then becomes part of the attraction of watching movies. The relationships may make no sense otherwise (dwarf/elf relations in Tolkien?). But movie logic says that some pairing is going to be shipped.



Slash shipping also has an extra component. It may be that the shipper is saying that both characters are attractive to the shipper. Shipping them allows for erotic fantasies involving both. Without that, the fantasy would have to pick between the cool, logical Spock and the demonstrative and passionate Kirk. Slash shipping offers both in the same fantasy.



Male vs. female slash




But for some reason, a strong bond between female friends is accepted, whereas whenever men are involved, sexual overtones get added in.




I think that you are just wrong on this. A quick Google finds at least one example, Supergirl Recap: Kara and Lena Practically Beg for Slash Fiction About Them in “Luthors”:




I adore Kara and Lena’s friendship. And the chemistry between her and Melissa Benoist as Kara is off the chain. And yes, I know, they’re just becoming close friends … but when they were sitting on the couch together and Lena was thanking her profusely for believing in her … tell me you didn’t think Lena was going to lean in for a kiss. Was it just me? Maybe it was the leather top Lena was wearing, I dunno.




There is no evidence that the show intends Kara and Lena to be lovers. Both have shown interest only in men (including the same man, both have dated Jimmy Olsen). If one were to have a lesbian relationship, Alex (short for Alexandra for those who don't watch the show) seems like a far more appropriate partner. This is especially so for Kara, as her dating any other woman might well be seen as a rejection of Alex. Listen to Alex describing her perfect woman sometime, and then think about how many of those boxes that Kara fits.



This also touches on a big problem that homosexuals (and heterosexuals) have. It's not always obvious whether someone is interested in you in the same way that you are interested in the other person. Alex may be sexually attracted to this beautiful woman with whom she has had close contact for years. Alex may be just now recognizing that she is attracted to women (not universal but not uncommon among homosexuals). It may be hard for her to recognize how she feels about Kara. And if she does recognize it, how would she interpret Kara's actions? If Kara behaves the same way as Alex when Alex recognizes that in her case, it's romantic interest, isn't it reasonable to think that Kara feels the same way?



It's not the Supergirl writers who are shipping these relationships. It's the fans.



The point is that people do slash ship female relationships. Off the top of my head, Xena/Gabrielle comes to mind as well. But so much fiction has male leads that you may just be seeing a natural concentration on those characters. Quite often female slash shipping is seen as intentional while male slash shipping is more obviously not.



Child sexual abuse



People who have been sexually abused as children sexualize non-romantic relationships. They had their own non-romantic relationships with their uncles, aunts, babysitters, etc. sexualized. This colors the rest of their relationships and their perceptions of relationships in fiction.



You didn't abuse them (at least I hope not), but they will still view your work in terms of their lives. This is not stoppable by anything that you do. You have no control how others perceive your work.



General vs. specific



It may be true that there is something that you may be doing in this specific work where you are encouraging readers to view the characters together. That's really impossible to analyze without the work itself. Let people read the work. If they start slash shipments, ask them why. Address their points with appropriate rewriting if you think their interpretation will be common.



In general though, slash shipping is not about the author's writing but about the reader. It is out of the author's control.






share|improve this answer



























    up vote
    5
    down vote













    Have them act like male philos friends and not eros lovers.



    For example, if they call each other "Fatso" and "Bullet-head", readers will tend to think of them as friends. If they call each other "Darling" and "Honey-buns", readers will think of them as lovers.



    Maybe that's obvious, but I can think of many more subtle examples. If they have an argument and then make up and they hug, that will be a possible sign that they're lovers. If they have an argument and then make up and they say, "Hey, sorry Fred" and "I get it. We're good.", that's more like friends. Could two philos friends hug? Of course? Could too lovers say "sorry" and "that's ok"? Sure. But it's the sort of thing that adds up. If I read a book -- or saw two real men -- who did one "maybe lover" thing and ten "probably friend" things, I'd likely conclude they're friends, not lovers. And vice versa.



    I've read plenty of books, seen plenty of movies, etc, where two men are friends and it never occurred to me to think they might be gay lovers, because they never act romantic towards each other.



    I think that to the average heterosexual, the idea that two men might be in a gay relationship is out of the ordinary enough that they won't tend to think of it unless you hit them over the head with it. Homosexuals are like 3% of the population, after all. Like, if a story is set in the United States, I'll generally assume that all the characters are American citizens unless you tell me otherwise or give me strong clues. Not because I am prejudiced against non-Americans, but because the statistical reality is that most people in the US are US citizens. I assume that all characters are of roughly average height unless told otherwise, even though I am well aware of the existence of dwarfs. Etc.



    Homosexual readers appear to be more likely to see or imagine homosexual relationships. To an extent I can see this: it's presumably part of their daily lives. (Still: I'm white. But if I read a story set in Nigeria, I think I'd assume the characters are black unless otherwise specified. I wouldn't assume they are white just because I'm white. Whatever.)






    share|improve this answer




















    • +1, but to correct a mis-perception, about 10% to 15% of the population is gay or bisexual. Scientifically speaking, we can measure sexual arousal in a person, and 15% is also about the number that are physically aroused more by pornography featuring two characters of their own sex, than by pornography featuring two heterosexuals or two characters of the opposite sex, whether they report that physical arousal or not. (American study.) More women than men are willing to report same-sex-as-themselves arousal, which might be a cultural phenomenon in a place not too friendly to male homosexuals.
      – Amadeus
      yesterday






    • 1




      @Amadeus A study by the National Institute of Health found that 1.6% of Americans self-identify as gay or lesbian, and 0.7% as bisexual. cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr077.pdf Other studies have similar results. I'm sure one can debate methodologies, but that would be a different question, probably not appropriate to this forum. I based my statement on studies such as this.
      – Jay
      yesterday






    • 1




      "self-identify" means they are willing to admit this in an interview; both to themselves and to strangers. Those that DO self-identify as homosexuals also have physiological reactions consistent with homosexuality as I described. I believe the physiological reactions are far more revealing of actual attraction than the self-reports, especially in countries where homosexuality is heavily stigmatized (as it still is in much of the USA) or even illegal, as it was in all the USA before 1962, and in 14 states as recently as 2003. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States
      – Amadeus
      yesterday






    • 2




      Amadeus, as Jay said, if you want to continue this chat, you should take it to a chatroom. Comments are not for extended discussion. That said, the methodologies of these studies may be interesting to compare before you two talk. Share your studies in a chat and discuss it there. As for my comment: Jay, sorry, but due to Supernatural doing exactly what you suggest and the result still turning out how they did... I don't think this idea works to outright prevent misinterpretation, just reduce the number of people who misinterpret.
      – Sora Tamashii
      yesterday










    • @SoraTamashii Sure. The goal of 0% misinterpretation of a story is probably near impossible to achieve -- on this subject or others. I've heard people give many interpretations that I find quite bizarre and totally removed from anything in the text. If a reader insists on believing that Harry Potter is really an allegory about the conflict between Apple and Android phones, he's going to find all sorts of subtle clues hidden throughout the books, and he will reply to any effort you make to prove to him that that is not what the author intended by saying that just proves how subtle it is.
      – Jay
      12 hours ago

















    up vote
    4
    down vote













    There are three frames of reference here: The author's intention, the way the audience receives the characters, and, arguably (but controversially) whatever reality the characters take on in themselves.



    Of the three, you're really only responsible for (and fully in control of) the first. Write the characters in whatever way makes sense to you, and seems most true to their own reality as you perceive it, and the story you want to tell. Fans who want to see a relationship between ANY two characters can always build a case to support that, no matter what you do. Part of the issue is that many of the aspects of a strong platonic relationship are similar to that of a romantic relationship, and the ones that are not are the same ones that would be repressed or hidden in a clandestine relationship, or in the case of unwanted feelings. The more you, or your characters, try to deny a romantic side to this relationship, the more convinced people are that it exists. Ironically, the best real-life signal that a relationship is genuinely platonic is a lack of tension or conflict around the topic. When two friends aren't worried or bothered at all by being perceived as a couple, it usually means they aren't one. You can even lampshade this a bit by having the friends joke about how everyone thinks they're secretly involved.



    A lot also depends on context. A historical novel, or one placed in a setting where relationships are more often homosocial than homosexual will have less of a challenge in justifying the kind of relationship you want to present.






    share|improve this answer





























      up vote
      2
      down vote













      The problem is, you CAN'T prevent people from making slashfics about your characters. Supernatural is the greatest proof of this you could ever have.



      Sam and Dean Winchester are brothers. Not even half, step-, or adopted brothers. They are 100% blood brothers, and the show makes sure to remind us of this constantly. Still, Win-cest fics are some of the most popular slashfics for Supernatural fans, alongside Destiel fics. You can't avoid it.



      There's a term in Japanese for these types: 腐女子 (pronounced: fujoshi). It refers to girls who avidly read yaoi or "boys love" stories. In the most extreme cases, the ones that made the term a "necessity" of sorts, fujoshis take even the most mundane, ordinary interactions between two males and fantasize about as many possible sexual undertones their words and actions could possibly have, no matter how deluded the fantasy may be. Of course, these types know that with real people (unless the objects of the fantasy are celebrities), they're just fantasizing, but once they start reading or watching fiction, they'll make every justification for why they're right, why they should be right, or why it's just right for their fantasies to be reality. (This actually got to such a point, an anime called "Kiss Him, Not Me" starring a fujoshi main character was released making fun of the personality type, while also humanizing it.) This term also can work to describe western slashfic writers too. (The term "fudanshi" is the male equivalent of this word. For simplicity, I'll generally only use "fujoshi" in this, but "fudanshi" are included in my intent/meaning.)



      This isn't to say a little healthy imagination can't be a good thing, but with the (hopefully) fringe members of this already extreme group, so much as walking past each other and not saying a word is confirmation in the fujoshi's mind. I repeat, this is for the extreme and only in regards to fiction (and celebrities). (If you want proof of fujoshis in regards to celebrities, take a look at the Markiplier x Jacksepticeye slashfics.)



      When it comes down to it, most slashfic writers tend to be the more avid fans of a work, so it makes sense that they'd be avid fans of other things as well. If two characters of the same sex have any kind of relationship, no matter the type, you won't be able to avoid a fujoshi's mislabeling of the relationship. It's an unwritten sub-law of rule 34 of the internet.




      "If it exists, there is porn of it. No exceptions."



      • "If there's any form of relationship between two characters of the same sex, a fujoshi/fudanshi has written a slashfic of it. No exceptions."



      Now the sub-law has been written. It's worth noting



      If you want to minimize the risk, your best bet is to minimize the exposure your story gets. Fujoshi and fudanshi are everywhere nowadays. If your story gets read by only a few people, you can probably avoid fujoshis/fudanshis from mislabeling relationships. However, it's safe to assume that the larger your readership gets, the more likely a fujoshi/fudanshi will romanticize/sexualize otherwise innocuous relationships.






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Sora Tamashii is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.
























        up vote
        1
        down vote













        Another famous fictional pair with this philia bond was Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, protagonists of stories that added up to a half dozen books by Fritz Leiber. He explicitly explored the distinction in one of his later stories, collected in Swords and Ice Magic (I think it was either "The Curse of the Smalls and the Stars" or "The Mouser goes Under", but I don't have my books where I can reach them at present).



        An examination of how Leiber wrote this pair of heroes over four decades ought to give a fine example of how to write philia between two men.






        share|improve this answer




















        • You should expand on how Leiber actually does what OP is asking about in his works (or at least provide a brief summary), rather than just saying "Leiber did it, go read his works".
          – V2Blast
          3 hours ago

















        up vote
        0
        down vote













        Explain why are your characters more devoted to each other then to their wives



        Marriage supposed to be closest bond between two human beings. Of course, that is the theory, in practice things often end up differently. Your characters could have various problems in marriage, for example they could have married based on good looks and those looks are gone, they could have devoted to much time to kids and kids have grown up etc ... Since they are very close friends they could discus these problems with each other, and thus establish they are still attracted to female sex.



        One usual and somewhat lazy plot device to establish two characters as heterosexual red-blooded males is to set them up to make comments about other women ("Catherine is a hot piece of tail ..."). This of course could be altered to sound more sophisticated ("Catherine is indeed one exquisite woman ..."), depending on circumstances of your story.



        Key would be not to overdo it, and not to make your story some politically correct garbage were you would write some long-winded explanation why your characters are not homosexual, but still support their rights as you do as an author. Instead, simply throw few casual sentences that establish them as heterosexuals and move on.






        share|improve this answer




















          Your Answer







          StackExchange.ready(function()
          var channelOptions =
          tags: "".split(" "),
          id: "166"
          ;
          initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

          StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
          // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
          if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
          StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
          createEditor();
          );

          else
          createEditor();

          );

          function createEditor()
          StackExchange.prepareEditor(
          heartbeatType: 'answer',
          convertImagesToLinks: false,
          noModals: false,
          showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
          reputationToPostImages: null,
          bindNavPrevention: true,
          postfix: "",
          noCode: true, onDemand: true,
          discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
          ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
          );



          );













           

          draft saved


          draft discarded


















          StackExchange.ready(
          function ()
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fwriting.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f39669%2fhow-can-i-indicate-that-a-particular-relationship-between-two-male-characters-is%23new-answer', 'question_page');

          );

          Post as a guest

















          9 Answers
          9






          active

          oldest

          votes








          9 Answers
          9






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes








          up vote
          17
          down vote














          But for some reason, a strong bond between female friends is accepted,
          whereas whenever men are involved, sexual overtones get added in




          I hear this a lot. ‘Let men just be friends!’ And I’m all for it. Men should be free to show affection, vulnerability, and closeness in their friendships just the way women are. It is so uncommon (in western society, at least), that some people find it jarring and immediately jump to the idea that the relationship must be romantic/sexual, because men are only supposed to act that way with their romantic/sexual partners.



          On the other hand, have you ever heard a queer woman tell a story of the many times her partner was determinedly referred to as her friend in various scenarios, at a dinner date, holding hands walking down the street, shopping for a bed in IKEA? It’s funny isn’t it? If you want readers to believe your two female characters are falling in love, you better beat them over the head with it. But the lines between friendship and romance may be more blurry than we realise.



          So let’s try an exercise. Imagine one of your characters is a woman, the other still a man, and no other aspect of the relationship has changed. Do you think readers would be able to discern the platonic nature? Might the reader still expect this friendship to evolve into romance later, because that’s just what happens in stories?



          The common perception of shippers is that they’re squealing schoolgirls who just want to see boys kiss. But there is a significant audience of LGBT folk who simply ship because it feels natural and normal for two same sex characters with a strong bond to fall in love, just as it will feel natural and normal to a straight audience for a male-female friendship to tend that way. The difference is, we don't get to see a whole lot of it in media. Shipping is our representation. Sometimes it's the representation all we have.



          The other difference is in the reaction to that assumption. If someone was to ask a man and woman with a close friendship if they are a couple, they will probably just deny it while laughing it off. When it’s two men with a close friendship, there’s discomfort. There’s offense. There’s this whole ‘Let men just be friends without it being gay!’ thing. Well, what's wrong if it had been gay? It’s so subtly homophobic, but significant nonetheless. You can deconstruct the toxic masculinity of denying men close friendships without throwing queer men under the bus.



          So my advice is to look at this similar question and do exactly what you would do if your philia pair was a guy and a girl. Don’t make jokes to brush it off. Don't worry about shippers. People are still going to ship them no matter what, and that’s valid. There’s no need to be put off by it.






          share|improve this answer


















          • 3




            +1 Unless the OP intends to address "gay panic", the answers at the other question about platonic friends all apply. Your answer addresses the real issue behind the question. Not showing their friendship, but making sure everyone knows "they're not gay". Does it make any difference to the story if it is mutually platonic, unrequited, or friends with benefits? HOW does it change the story? Why is it important to let everyone know this detail, is it the normal assumption of the storyworld? Will both characters be explaining this to their parents who keep hoping for wedding bells?
            – wetcircuit
            yesterday






          • 1




            @wetcircuit I think it DOES make a difference to the story if there is erotic attraction or not; and it makes a difference in reader expectations, which an author has an explicit agenda and responsibility to manage. If the reader is given to expect these guys will end up lovers, they may be disappointed when it doesn't happen, and their dissatisfaction with the ending is as much of a problem for the author as a deus ex machina or illogical ending. Most writers here hope to sell a story, not write only for themselves. This question is about managing reader expectations, for a satisfying ending.
            – Amadeus
            yesterday






          • 1




            @eyeballfrog Discomfort because of falsehoods being spoken about you and discomfort and offense because of internalised homophobia are different. I'm speaking of the latter.
            – sudowoodo
            yesterday






          • 4




            @Amadeus I don't think wetcircuit is saying it doesn't matter, but asking why OP thinks this might be an issue to begin with. As you've said, same sex Philia and same sex Eros are very distinct, and the average reader will not jump immediately from 'these guys are buddies' to 'these guys are boning.' The average reader doesn't mistake Kirk and Spock's Philia as Eros. But shippers are always going to ship, whether it has sound footing in canon or not. You can't stop it, nor should you want to.
            – sudowoodo
            yesterday







          • 1




            @sudowoodo They are different, but the way your post is worded makes it sound like the only reason a person would be uncomfortable with being mistaken for gay is internalized homophobia. If that was not your intention, fair enough, though you might want to be more clear about that.
            – eyeballfrog
            13 hours ago














          up vote
          17
          down vote














          But for some reason, a strong bond between female friends is accepted,
          whereas whenever men are involved, sexual overtones get added in




          I hear this a lot. ‘Let men just be friends!’ And I’m all for it. Men should be free to show affection, vulnerability, and closeness in their friendships just the way women are. It is so uncommon (in western society, at least), that some people find it jarring and immediately jump to the idea that the relationship must be romantic/sexual, because men are only supposed to act that way with their romantic/sexual partners.



          On the other hand, have you ever heard a queer woman tell a story of the many times her partner was determinedly referred to as her friend in various scenarios, at a dinner date, holding hands walking down the street, shopping for a bed in IKEA? It’s funny isn’t it? If you want readers to believe your two female characters are falling in love, you better beat them over the head with it. But the lines between friendship and romance may be more blurry than we realise.



          So let’s try an exercise. Imagine one of your characters is a woman, the other still a man, and no other aspect of the relationship has changed. Do you think readers would be able to discern the platonic nature? Might the reader still expect this friendship to evolve into romance later, because that’s just what happens in stories?



          The common perception of shippers is that they’re squealing schoolgirls who just want to see boys kiss. But there is a significant audience of LGBT folk who simply ship because it feels natural and normal for two same sex characters with a strong bond to fall in love, just as it will feel natural and normal to a straight audience for a male-female friendship to tend that way. The difference is, we don't get to see a whole lot of it in media. Shipping is our representation. Sometimes it's the representation all we have.



          The other difference is in the reaction to that assumption. If someone was to ask a man and woman with a close friendship if they are a couple, they will probably just deny it while laughing it off. When it’s two men with a close friendship, there’s discomfort. There’s offense. There’s this whole ‘Let men just be friends without it being gay!’ thing. Well, what's wrong if it had been gay? It’s so subtly homophobic, but significant nonetheless. You can deconstruct the toxic masculinity of denying men close friendships without throwing queer men under the bus.



          So my advice is to look at this similar question and do exactly what you would do if your philia pair was a guy and a girl. Don’t make jokes to brush it off. Don't worry about shippers. People are still going to ship them no matter what, and that’s valid. There’s no need to be put off by it.






          share|improve this answer


















          • 3




            +1 Unless the OP intends to address "gay panic", the answers at the other question about platonic friends all apply. Your answer addresses the real issue behind the question. Not showing their friendship, but making sure everyone knows "they're not gay". Does it make any difference to the story if it is mutually platonic, unrequited, or friends with benefits? HOW does it change the story? Why is it important to let everyone know this detail, is it the normal assumption of the storyworld? Will both characters be explaining this to their parents who keep hoping for wedding bells?
            – wetcircuit
            yesterday






          • 1




            @wetcircuit I think it DOES make a difference to the story if there is erotic attraction or not; and it makes a difference in reader expectations, which an author has an explicit agenda and responsibility to manage. If the reader is given to expect these guys will end up lovers, they may be disappointed when it doesn't happen, and their dissatisfaction with the ending is as much of a problem for the author as a deus ex machina or illogical ending. Most writers here hope to sell a story, not write only for themselves. This question is about managing reader expectations, for a satisfying ending.
            – Amadeus
            yesterday






          • 1




            @eyeballfrog Discomfort because of falsehoods being spoken about you and discomfort and offense because of internalised homophobia are different. I'm speaking of the latter.
            – sudowoodo
            yesterday






          • 4




            @Amadeus I don't think wetcircuit is saying it doesn't matter, but asking why OP thinks this might be an issue to begin with. As you've said, same sex Philia and same sex Eros are very distinct, and the average reader will not jump immediately from 'these guys are buddies' to 'these guys are boning.' The average reader doesn't mistake Kirk and Spock's Philia as Eros. But shippers are always going to ship, whether it has sound footing in canon or not. You can't stop it, nor should you want to.
            – sudowoodo
            yesterday







          • 1




            @sudowoodo They are different, but the way your post is worded makes it sound like the only reason a person would be uncomfortable with being mistaken for gay is internalized homophobia. If that was not your intention, fair enough, though you might want to be more clear about that.
            – eyeballfrog
            13 hours ago












          up vote
          17
          down vote










          up vote
          17
          down vote










          But for some reason, a strong bond between female friends is accepted,
          whereas whenever men are involved, sexual overtones get added in




          I hear this a lot. ‘Let men just be friends!’ And I’m all for it. Men should be free to show affection, vulnerability, and closeness in their friendships just the way women are. It is so uncommon (in western society, at least), that some people find it jarring and immediately jump to the idea that the relationship must be romantic/sexual, because men are only supposed to act that way with their romantic/sexual partners.



          On the other hand, have you ever heard a queer woman tell a story of the many times her partner was determinedly referred to as her friend in various scenarios, at a dinner date, holding hands walking down the street, shopping for a bed in IKEA? It’s funny isn’t it? If you want readers to believe your two female characters are falling in love, you better beat them over the head with it. But the lines between friendship and romance may be more blurry than we realise.



          So let’s try an exercise. Imagine one of your characters is a woman, the other still a man, and no other aspect of the relationship has changed. Do you think readers would be able to discern the platonic nature? Might the reader still expect this friendship to evolve into romance later, because that’s just what happens in stories?



          The common perception of shippers is that they’re squealing schoolgirls who just want to see boys kiss. But there is a significant audience of LGBT folk who simply ship because it feels natural and normal for two same sex characters with a strong bond to fall in love, just as it will feel natural and normal to a straight audience for a male-female friendship to tend that way. The difference is, we don't get to see a whole lot of it in media. Shipping is our representation. Sometimes it's the representation all we have.



          The other difference is in the reaction to that assumption. If someone was to ask a man and woman with a close friendship if they are a couple, they will probably just deny it while laughing it off. When it’s two men with a close friendship, there’s discomfort. There’s offense. There’s this whole ‘Let men just be friends without it being gay!’ thing. Well, what's wrong if it had been gay? It’s so subtly homophobic, but significant nonetheless. You can deconstruct the toxic masculinity of denying men close friendships without throwing queer men under the bus.



          So my advice is to look at this similar question and do exactly what you would do if your philia pair was a guy and a girl. Don’t make jokes to brush it off. Don't worry about shippers. People are still going to ship them no matter what, and that’s valid. There’s no need to be put off by it.






          share|improve this answer















          But for some reason, a strong bond between female friends is accepted,
          whereas whenever men are involved, sexual overtones get added in




          I hear this a lot. ‘Let men just be friends!’ And I’m all for it. Men should be free to show affection, vulnerability, and closeness in their friendships just the way women are. It is so uncommon (in western society, at least), that some people find it jarring and immediately jump to the idea that the relationship must be romantic/sexual, because men are only supposed to act that way with their romantic/sexual partners.



          On the other hand, have you ever heard a queer woman tell a story of the many times her partner was determinedly referred to as her friend in various scenarios, at a dinner date, holding hands walking down the street, shopping for a bed in IKEA? It’s funny isn’t it? If you want readers to believe your two female characters are falling in love, you better beat them over the head with it. But the lines between friendship and romance may be more blurry than we realise.



          So let’s try an exercise. Imagine one of your characters is a woman, the other still a man, and no other aspect of the relationship has changed. Do you think readers would be able to discern the platonic nature? Might the reader still expect this friendship to evolve into romance later, because that’s just what happens in stories?



          The common perception of shippers is that they’re squealing schoolgirls who just want to see boys kiss. But there is a significant audience of LGBT folk who simply ship because it feels natural and normal for two same sex characters with a strong bond to fall in love, just as it will feel natural and normal to a straight audience for a male-female friendship to tend that way. The difference is, we don't get to see a whole lot of it in media. Shipping is our representation. Sometimes it's the representation all we have.



          The other difference is in the reaction to that assumption. If someone was to ask a man and woman with a close friendship if they are a couple, they will probably just deny it while laughing it off. When it’s two men with a close friendship, there’s discomfort. There’s offense. There’s this whole ‘Let men just be friends without it being gay!’ thing. Well, what's wrong if it had been gay? It’s so subtly homophobic, but significant nonetheless. You can deconstruct the toxic masculinity of denying men close friendships without throwing queer men under the bus.



          So my advice is to look at this similar question and do exactly what you would do if your philia pair was a guy and a girl. Don’t make jokes to brush it off. Don't worry about shippers. People are still going to ship them no matter what, and that’s valid. There’s no need to be put off by it.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 1 hour ago









          kubanczyk

          1032




          1032










          answered yesterday









          sudowoodo

          1,1771626




          1,1771626







          • 3




            +1 Unless the OP intends to address "gay panic", the answers at the other question about platonic friends all apply. Your answer addresses the real issue behind the question. Not showing their friendship, but making sure everyone knows "they're not gay". Does it make any difference to the story if it is mutually platonic, unrequited, or friends with benefits? HOW does it change the story? Why is it important to let everyone know this detail, is it the normal assumption of the storyworld? Will both characters be explaining this to their parents who keep hoping for wedding bells?
            – wetcircuit
            yesterday






          • 1




            @wetcircuit I think it DOES make a difference to the story if there is erotic attraction or not; and it makes a difference in reader expectations, which an author has an explicit agenda and responsibility to manage. If the reader is given to expect these guys will end up lovers, they may be disappointed when it doesn't happen, and their dissatisfaction with the ending is as much of a problem for the author as a deus ex machina or illogical ending. Most writers here hope to sell a story, not write only for themselves. This question is about managing reader expectations, for a satisfying ending.
            – Amadeus
            yesterday






          • 1




            @eyeballfrog Discomfort because of falsehoods being spoken about you and discomfort and offense because of internalised homophobia are different. I'm speaking of the latter.
            – sudowoodo
            yesterday






          • 4




            @Amadeus I don't think wetcircuit is saying it doesn't matter, but asking why OP thinks this might be an issue to begin with. As you've said, same sex Philia and same sex Eros are very distinct, and the average reader will not jump immediately from 'these guys are buddies' to 'these guys are boning.' The average reader doesn't mistake Kirk and Spock's Philia as Eros. But shippers are always going to ship, whether it has sound footing in canon or not. You can't stop it, nor should you want to.
            – sudowoodo
            yesterday







          • 1




            @sudowoodo They are different, but the way your post is worded makes it sound like the only reason a person would be uncomfortable with being mistaken for gay is internalized homophobia. If that was not your intention, fair enough, though you might want to be more clear about that.
            – eyeballfrog
            13 hours ago












          • 3




            +1 Unless the OP intends to address "gay panic", the answers at the other question about platonic friends all apply. Your answer addresses the real issue behind the question. Not showing their friendship, but making sure everyone knows "they're not gay". Does it make any difference to the story if it is mutually platonic, unrequited, or friends with benefits? HOW does it change the story? Why is it important to let everyone know this detail, is it the normal assumption of the storyworld? Will both characters be explaining this to their parents who keep hoping for wedding bells?
            – wetcircuit
            yesterday






          • 1




            @wetcircuit I think it DOES make a difference to the story if there is erotic attraction or not; and it makes a difference in reader expectations, which an author has an explicit agenda and responsibility to manage. If the reader is given to expect these guys will end up lovers, they may be disappointed when it doesn't happen, and their dissatisfaction with the ending is as much of a problem for the author as a deus ex machina or illogical ending. Most writers here hope to sell a story, not write only for themselves. This question is about managing reader expectations, for a satisfying ending.
            – Amadeus
            yesterday






          • 1




            @eyeballfrog Discomfort because of falsehoods being spoken about you and discomfort and offense because of internalised homophobia are different. I'm speaking of the latter.
            – sudowoodo
            yesterday






          • 4




            @Amadeus I don't think wetcircuit is saying it doesn't matter, but asking why OP thinks this might be an issue to begin with. As you've said, same sex Philia and same sex Eros are very distinct, and the average reader will not jump immediately from 'these guys are buddies' to 'these guys are boning.' The average reader doesn't mistake Kirk and Spock's Philia as Eros. But shippers are always going to ship, whether it has sound footing in canon or not. You can't stop it, nor should you want to.
            – sudowoodo
            yesterday







          • 1




            @sudowoodo They are different, but the way your post is worded makes it sound like the only reason a person would be uncomfortable with being mistaken for gay is internalized homophobia. If that was not your intention, fair enough, though you might want to be more clear about that.
            – eyeballfrog
            13 hours ago







          3




          3




          +1 Unless the OP intends to address "gay panic", the answers at the other question about platonic friends all apply. Your answer addresses the real issue behind the question. Not showing their friendship, but making sure everyone knows "they're not gay". Does it make any difference to the story if it is mutually platonic, unrequited, or friends with benefits? HOW does it change the story? Why is it important to let everyone know this detail, is it the normal assumption of the storyworld? Will both characters be explaining this to their parents who keep hoping for wedding bells?
          – wetcircuit
          yesterday




          +1 Unless the OP intends to address "gay panic", the answers at the other question about platonic friends all apply. Your answer addresses the real issue behind the question. Not showing their friendship, but making sure everyone knows "they're not gay". Does it make any difference to the story if it is mutually platonic, unrequited, or friends with benefits? HOW does it change the story? Why is it important to let everyone know this detail, is it the normal assumption of the storyworld? Will both characters be explaining this to their parents who keep hoping for wedding bells?
          – wetcircuit
          yesterday




          1




          1




          @wetcircuit I think it DOES make a difference to the story if there is erotic attraction or not; and it makes a difference in reader expectations, which an author has an explicit agenda and responsibility to manage. If the reader is given to expect these guys will end up lovers, they may be disappointed when it doesn't happen, and their dissatisfaction with the ending is as much of a problem for the author as a deus ex machina or illogical ending. Most writers here hope to sell a story, not write only for themselves. This question is about managing reader expectations, for a satisfying ending.
          – Amadeus
          yesterday




          @wetcircuit I think it DOES make a difference to the story if there is erotic attraction or not; and it makes a difference in reader expectations, which an author has an explicit agenda and responsibility to manage. If the reader is given to expect these guys will end up lovers, they may be disappointed when it doesn't happen, and their dissatisfaction with the ending is as much of a problem for the author as a deus ex machina or illogical ending. Most writers here hope to sell a story, not write only for themselves. This question is about managing reader expectations, for a satisfying ending.
          – Amadeus
          yesterday




          1




          1




          @eyeballfrog Discomfort because of falsehoods being spoken about you and discomfort and offense because of internalised homophobia are different. I'm speaking of the latter.
          – sudowoodo
          yesterday




          @eyeballfrog Discomfort because of falsehoods being spoken about you and discomfort and offense because of internalised homophobia are different. I'm speaking of the latter.
          – sudowoodo
          yesterday




          4




          4




          @Amadeus I don't think wetcircuit is saying it doesn't matter, but asking why OP thinks this might be an issue to begin with. As you've said, same sex Philia and same sex Eros are very distinct, and the average reader will not jump immediately from 'these guys are buddies' to 'these guys are boning.' The average reader doesn't mistake Kirk and Spock's Philia as Eros. But shippers are always going to ship, whether it has sound footing in canon or not. You can't stop it, nor should you want to.
          – sudowoodo
          yesterday





          @Amadeus I don't think wetcircuit is saying it doesn't matter, but asking why OP thinks this might be an issue to begin with. As you've said, same sex Philia and same sex Eros are very distinct, and the average reader will not jump immediately from 'these guys are buddies' to 'these guys are boning.' The average reader doesn't mistake Kirk and Spock's Philia as Eros. But shippers are always going to ship, whether it has sound footing in canon or not. You can't stop it, nor should you want to.
          – sudowoodo
          yesterday





          1




          1




          @sudowoodo They are different, but the way your post is worded makes it sound like the only reason a person would be uncomfortable with being mistaken for gay is internalized homophobia. If that was not your intention, fair enough, though you might want to be more clear about that.
          – eyeballfrog
          13 hours ago




          @sudowoodo They are different, but the way your post is worded makes it sound like the only reason a person would be uncomfortable with being mistaken for gay is internalized homophobia. If that was not your intention, fair enough, though you might want to be more clear about that.
          – eyeballfrog
          13 hours ago










          up vote
          9
          down vote













          I don't know if this helps, but I think war movies do this very well. The Deer Hunter, Saving Private Ryan, some movies involving gangs, or cops on a mission. The series Vikings has elements of this brotherly love too. Many police movies and series show the same thing amongst fellow cops without making it sexual; on NCIS we don't think the main character Jethro Gibbs is in romantic love with any of the several men he has had close relationships with, or even lived with. But he is stoic, doesn't like to talk, and all these men have been in the trenches with him, in either war or police work. When they hang out, they do male things, eat steak and watch football (a metaphor for war).



          I'm analyzing off the top of my head, so your own interpretation is as valid as mine, but I think the lethal consequences of conflict can plausibly offset any Eros in the relationship and the risks taken together or for each other prove the "love" aspect you are looking for.



          Any form of tenderness (holding hands, kissing, banging it out) is just not in the cards in such situations; and the male characters never have any "tender moments" with each other, they aren't gazing into each other's eyes. Typically when relating any emotional back story, men are not looking at each other, and if one gets emotional the other responds more stoically, and briefly without elaboration. "That sucks, dude." That's it.



          The love between them is seldom stated, it is proven by heroic action when the other is in trouble. From memory, I believe they most commonly refer to each other as brothers, not friends, to emphasize the greater commitment. It's a handy tool, because it also reduces any expectation of homosexuality and most people are more ready to accept brothers (or a father and son if the age difference is great enough) can have a deeper non-sexual relationship. You can see this in the film Four Brothers, with Mark Wahlberg: four men (two black, two white), all adopted by the same woman, come together for her funeral ... and to kill the man that murdered her. A war movie of sorts, but you never feel like these men were ever lovers. For one they are all too callous (playing against common gay stereotypes) and secondly the story gives us a very good reason for them to love each other, they grew up together in a rough neighborhood and despite their lethal toughness, they all loved the same kind mother.



          IN general I'd say you need a good reason for this philial friendship to exist, and to be plausible, it likely needs to involve mutual protection and co-dependence in response to a dangerous environment. Either one in the past which they both survived, or one in the present where they need each other to survive.



          Also, "dangerous" could be metaphorical; entailing political or financial or social survival. In the original premise of "Suits", the friendship of Mike and Harvey is philial, but they share a lie that can cost them a fortune and their careers. (The risk taken by Harvey in not exposing Mike's lie proves his philial love for Mike.)






          share|improve this answer
















          • 2




            Of course the two things I'm working on right now are a sci-fi war novel with a gay MC couple, and a fantasy novel where two childhood friends share a strong philia bond, and do "manly" things like being together in the Hammam. :D Your answer is actually helpful: since it seems I must work against readers' expectations, it helps to see what those expectations are.
            – Galastel
            yesterday






          • 1




            @Galastel For the fantasy friends, some past mutual bailouts in adventures as children can serve. give them something to talk about in the Hammam; "I saved your ass in the cave," vs "So I could save your ass on the cliff!". But with more imagination. For male friends it is often important to feel like equals, or in some way equally superior: e.g. I have one cool skill, my friend has a different cool skill, and we both know and acknowledge that. So neither feels subordinated to the other, or resents the advantages of the other. They want to feel better as a team tackling the world together.
            – Amadeus
            yesterday










          • Gibbs being so much as referenced is enough to warrant a +1. That said, I do like the angle you took this. Using less frequently homo-erotically romanticized characters is a great way to make suggestions for this. That said, I think it also helps that the demographic for these examples tend to also be a bit older, with some exceptions (late 20s and up).
            – Sora Tamashii
            yesterday














          up vote
          9
          down vote













          I don't know if this helps, but I think war movies do this very well. The Deer Hunter, Saving Private Ryan, some movies involving gangs, or cops on a mission. The series Vikings has elements of this brotherly love too. Many police movies and series show the same thing amongst fellow cops without making it sexual; on NCIS we don't think the main character Jethro Gibbs is in romantic love with any of the several men he has had close relationships with, or even lived with. But he is stoic, doesn't like to talk, and all these men have been in the trenches with him, in either war or police work. When they hang out, they do male things, eat steak and watch football (a metaphor for war).



          I'm analyzing off the top of my head, so your own interpretation is as valid as mine, but I think the lethal consequences of conflict can plausibly offset any Eros in the relationship and the risks taken together or for each other prove the "love" aspect you are looking for.



          Any form of tenderness (holding hands, kissing, banging it out) is just not in the cards in such situations; and the male characters never have any "tender moments" with each other, they aren't gazing into each other's eyes. Typically when relating any emotional back story, men are not looking at each other, and if one gets emotional the other responds more stoically, and briefly without elaboration. "That sucks, dude." That's it.



          The love between them is seldom stated, it is proven by heroic action when the other is in trouble. From memory, I believe they most commonly refer to each other as brothers, not friends, to emphasize the greater commitment. It's a handy tool, because it also reduces any expectation of homosexuality and most people are more ready to accept brothers (or a father and son if the age difference is great enough) can have a deeper non-sexual relationship. You can see this in the film Four Brothers, with Mark Wahlberg: four men (two black, two white), all adopted by the same woman, come together for her funeral ... and to kill the man that murdered her. A war movie of sorts, but you never feel like these men were ever lovers. For one they are all too callous (playing against common gay stereotypes) and secondly the story gives us a very good reason for them to love each other, they grew up together in a rough neighborhood and despite their lethal toughness, they all loved the same kind mother.



          IN general I'd say you need a good reason for this philial friendship to exist, and to be plausible, it likely needs to involve mutual protection and co-dependence in response to a dangerous environment. Either one in the past which they both survived, or one in the present where they need each other to survive.



          Also, "dangerous" could be metaphorical; entailing political or financial or social survival. In the original premise of "Suits", the friendship of Mike and Harvey is philial, but they share a lie that can cost them a fortune and their careers. (The risk taken by Harvey in not exposing Mike's lie proves his philial love for Mike.)






          share|improve this answer
















          • 2




            Of course the two things I'm working on right now are a sci-fi war novel with a gay MC couple, and a fantasy novel where two childhood friends share a strong philia bond, and do "manly" things like being together in the Hammam. :D Your answer is actually helpful: since it seems I must work against readers' expectations, it helps to see what those expectations are.
            – Galastel
            yesterday






          • 1




            @Galastel For the fantasy friends, some past mutual bailouts in adventures as children can serve. give them something to talk about in the Hammam; "I saved your ass in the cave," vs "So I could save your ass on the cliff!". But with more imagination. For male friends it is often important to feel like equals, or in some way equally superior: e.g. I have one cool skill, my friend has a different cool skill, and we both know and acknowledge that. So neither feels subordinated to the other, or resents the advantages of the other. They want to feel better as a team tackling the world together.
            – Amadeus
            yesterday










          • Gibbs being so much as referenced is enough to warrant a +1. That said, I do like the angle you took this. Using less frequently homo-erotically romanticized characters is a great way to make suggestions for this. That said, I think it also helps that the demographic for these examples tend to also be a bit older, with some exceptions (late 20s and up).
            – Sora Tamashii
            yesterday












          up vote
          9
          down vote










          up vote
          9
          down vote









          I don't know if this helps, but I think war movies do this very well. The Deer Hunter, Saving Private Ryan, some movies involving gangs, or cops on a mission. The series Vikings has elements of this brotherly love too. Many police movies and series show the same thing amongst fellow cops without making it sexual; on NCIS we don't think the main character Jethro Gibbs is in romantic love with any of the several men he has had close relationships with, or even lived with. But he is stoic, doesn't like to talk, and all these men have been in the trenches with him, in either war or police work. When they hang out, they do male things, eat steak and watch football (a metaphor for war).



          I'm analyzing off the top of my head, so your own interpretation is as valid as mine, but I think the lethal consequences of conflict can plausibly offset any Eros in the relationship and the risks taken together or for each other prove the "love" aspect you are looking for.



          Any form of tenderness (holding hands, kissing, banging it out) is just not in the cards in such situations; and the male characters never have any "tender moments" with each other, they aren't gazing into each other's eyes. Typically when relating any emotional back story, men are not looking at each other, and if one gets emotional the other responds more stoically, and briefly without elaboration. "That sucks, dude." That's it.



          The love between them is seldom stated, it is proven by heroic action when the other is in trouble. From memory, I believe they most commonly refer to each other as brothers, not friends, to emphasize the greater commitment. It's a handy tool, because it also reduces any expectation of homosexuality and most people are more ready to accept brothers (or a father and son if the age difference is great enough) can have a deeper non-sexual relationship. You can see this in the film Four Brothers, with Mark Wahlberg: four men (two black, two white), all adopted by the same woman, come together for her funeral ... and to kill the man that murdered her. A war movie of sorts, but you never feel like these men were ever lovers. For one they are all too callous (playing against common gay stereotypes) and secondly the story gives us a very good reason for them to love each other, they grew up together in a rough neighborhood and despite their lethal toughness, they all loved the same kind mother.



          IN general I'd say you need a good reason for this philial friendship to exist, and to be plausible, it likely needs to involve mutual protection and co-dependence in response to a dangerous environment. Either one in the past which they both survived, or one in the present where they need each other to survive.



          Also, "dangerous" could be metaphorical; entailing political or financial or social survival. In the original premise of "Suits", the friendship of Mike and Harvey is philial, but they share a lie that can cost them a fortune and their careers. (The risk taken by Harvey in not exposing Mike's lie proves his philial love for Mike.)






          share|improve this answer












          I don't know if this helps, but I think war movies do this very well. The Deer Hunter, Saving Private Ryan, some movies involving gangs, or cops on a mission. The series Vikings has elements of this brotherly love too. Many police movies and series show the same thing amongst fellow cops without making it sexual; on NCIS we don't think the main character Jethro Gibbs is in romantic love with any of the several men he has had close relationships with, or even lived with. But he is stoic, doesn't like to talk, and all these men have been in the trenches with him, in either war or police work. When they hang out, they do male things, eat steak and watch football (a metaphor for war).



          I'm analyzing off the top of my head, so your own interpretation is as valid as mine, but I think the lethal consequences of conflict can plausibly offset any Eros in the relationship and the risks taken together or for each other prove the "love" aspect you are looking for.



          Any form of tenderness (holding hands, kissing, banging it out) is just not in the cards in such situations; and the male characters never have any "tender moments" with each other, they aren't gazing into each other's eyes. Typically when relating any emotional back story, men are not looking at each other, and if one gets emotional the other responds more stoically, and briefly without elaboration. "That sucks, dude." That's it.



          The love between them is seldom stated, it is proven by heroic action when the other is in trouble. From memory, I believe they most commonly refer to each other as brothers, not friends, to emphasize the greater commitment. It's a handy tool, because it also reduces any expectation of homosexuality and most people are more ready to accept brothers (or a father and son if the age difference is great enough) can have a deeper non-sexual relationship. You can see this in the film Four Brothers, with Mark Wahlberg: four men (two black, two white), all adopted by the same woman, come together for her funeral ... and to kill the man that murdered her. A war movie of sorts, but you never feel like these men were ever lovers. For one they are all too callous (playing against common gay stereotypes) and secondly the story gives us a very good reason for them to love each other, they grew up together in a rough neighborhood and despite their lethal toughness, they all loved the same kind mother.



          IN general I'd say you need a good reason for this philial friendship to exist, and to be plausible, it likely needs to involve mutual protection and co-dependence in response to a dangerous environment. Either one in the past which they both survived, or one in the present where they need each other to survive.



          Also, "dangerous" could be metaphorical; entailing political or financial or social survival. In the original premise of "Suits", the friendship of Mike and Harvey is philial, but they share a lie that can cost them a fortune and their careers. (The risk taken by Harvey in not exposing Mike's lie proves his philial love for Mike.)







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered yesterday









          Amadeus

          41.3k250132




          41.3k250132







          • 2




            Of course the two things I'm working on right now are a sci-fi war novel with a gay MC couple, and a fantasy novel where two childhood friends share a strong philia bond, and do "manly" things like being together in the Hammam. :D Your answer is actually helpful: since it seems I must work against readers' expectations, it helps to see what those expectations are.
            – Galastel
            yesterday






          • 1




            @Galastel For the fantasy friends, some past mutual bailouts in adventures as children can serve. give them something to talk about in the Hammam; "I saved your ass in the cave," vs "So I could save your ass on the cliff!". But with more imagination. For male friends it is often important to feel like equals, or in some way equally superior: e.g. I have one cool skill, my friend has a different cool skill, and we both know and acknowledge that. So neither feels subordinated to the other, or resents the advantages of the other. They want to feel better as a team tackling the world together.
            – Amadeus
            yesterday










          • Gibbs being so much as referenced is enough to warrant a +1. That said, I do like the angle you took this. Using less frequently homo-erotically romanticized characters is a great way to make suggestions for this. That said, I think it also helps that the demographic for these examples tend to also be a bit older, with some exceptions (late 20s and up).
            – Sora Tamashii
            yesterday












          • 2




            Of course the two things I'm working on right now are a sci-fi war novel with a gay MC couple, and a fantasy novel where two childhood friends share a strong philia bond, and do "manly" things like being together in the Hammam. :D Your answer is actually helpful: since it seems I must work against readers' expectations, it helps to see what those expectations are.
            – Galastel
            yesterday






          • 1




            @Galastel For the fantasy friends, some past mutual bailouts in adventures as children can serve. give them something to talk about in the Hammam; "I saved your ass in the cave," vs "So I could save your ass on the cliff!". But with more imagination. For male friends it is often important to feel like equals, or in some way equally superior: e.g. I have one cool skill, my friend has a different cool skill, and we both know and acknowledge that. So neither feels subordinated to the other, or resents the advantages of the other. They want to feel better as a team tackling the world together.
            – Amadeus
            yesterday










          • Gibbs being so much as referenced is enough to warrant a +1. That said, I do like the angle you took this. Using less frequently homo-erotically romanticized characters is a great way to make suggestions for this. That said, I think it also helps that the demographic for these examples tend to also be a bit older, with some exceptions (late 20s and up).
            – Sora Tamashii
            yesterday







          2




          2




          Of course the two things I'm working on right now are a sci-fi war novel with a gay MC couple, and a fantasy novel where two childhood friends share a strong philia bond, and do "manly" things like being together in the Hammam. :D Your answer is actually helpful: since it seems I must work against readers' expectations, it helps to see what those expectations are.
          – Galastel
          yesterday




          Of course the two things I'm working on right now are a sci-fi war novel with a gay MC couple, and a fantasy novel where two childhood friends share a strong philia bond, and do "manly" things like being together in the Hammam. :D Your answer is actually helpful: since it seems I must work against readers' expectations, it helps to see what those expectations are.
          – Galastel
          yesterday




          1




          1




          @Galastel For the fantasy friends, some past mutual bailouts in adventures as children can serve. give them something to talk about in the Hammam; "I saved your ass in the cave," vs "So I could save your ass on the cliff!". But with more imagination. For male friends it is often important to feel like equals, or in some way equally superior: e.g. I have one cool skill, my friend has a different cool skill, and we both know and acknowledge that. So neither feels subordinated to the other, or resents the advantages of the other. They want to feel better as a team tackling the world together.
          – Amadeus
          yesterday




          @Galastel For the fantasy friends, some past mutual bailouts in adventures as children can serve. give them something to talk about in the Hammam; "I saved your ass in the cave," vs "So I could save your ass on the cliff!". But with more imagination. For male friends it is often important to feel like equals, or in some way equally superior: e.g. I have one cool skill, my friend has a different cool skill, and we both know and acknowledge that. So neither feels subordinated to the other, or resents the advantages of the other. They want to feel better as a team tackling the world together.
          – Amadeus
          yesterday












          Gibbs being so much as referenced is enough to warrant a +1. That said, I do like the angle you took this. Using less frequently homo-erotically romanticized characters is a great way to make suggestions for this. That said, I think it also helps that the demographic for these examples tend to also be a bit older, with some exceptions (late 20s and up).
          – Sora Tamashii
          yesterday




          Gibbs being so much as referenced is enough to warrant a +1. That said, I do like the angle you took this. Using less frequently homo-erotically romanticized characters is a great way to make suggestions for this. That said, I think it also helps that the demographic for these examples tend to also be a bit older, with some exceptions (late 20s and up).
          – Sora Tamashii
          yesterday










          up vote
          7
          down vote













          Shippers will always mistake close friendships as homosexual, because of all the natural chemistry that comes with written close friendships. Folks will have 'shipping goggles' on no matter what, and open affection between guys (who in fiction and real life alike are expected to be cold, distant and aloof to anyone that isn't their romantic interest) is often just the fuel shippers need.



          In terms of how to deal with the phenomenon that is shipping goggles, I'd recommend lampshading it from time to time; accept that it's going to happen and that you can't mind-control readers prone to that sort of thing.



          I have a pair of vitriolic best buds in my story, one being a naturally gentle, intellectual and paternal man who's thrust into a leadership position and the other a confrontational, callous, extremely talented archer who can't teach archery to save his life because his skill's largely innate. They argue all the time, but underneath it all, they both like each other and uncompromisingly act in each other's best interests.



          When they have a particularly bad argument at one point in the story, they hug it out after making up. Here is where I lay the acknowledgement of the shippers; the callous, brusque one puts on fake machismo saying 'this is so inverted' (the in-universe term for homoexuality; 'this is pretty gay' is the modern equivalent), and the gentle, paternal one then saying 'you don't have to dismiss friendship as inverted, just accept the hug and move on'.



          Essentially I both acknowledge the shipping goggles present and roundly mock the idea of it being canon in one fell swoop, while also having a thematic exploration in-universe (namely, deconstructing the idea that all men have to be unfeeling to their friends).






          share|improve this answer




















          • "Shippers"? What's that?
            – Ken Mohnkern
            yesterday






          • 3




            @KenMohnkern People that are invested in the romantic relationships (shortened to 'ships') in fiction. They're everywhere. For example, with the modern series Sherlock, it's just an assumption that 80% of the female fandom ships Sherlock and Watson.
            – Matthew Dave
            yesterday






          • 6




            Note that preventing shipping is completely impossible in the general case. Some readers will happily ship characters that have never met, have nothing in common, are of widely differing ages, have repeatedly tried to kill one another, etc., and there's nothing the author can do to stop it.
            – Kevin
            yesterday







          • 2




            Shipping is an important extreme to consider, but most shippers don't usually write slashfics. A lot do, but only a fringe percentage actually get to that point. To me, the OP seems more concerned about the fujoshi/fudanshi subset of shippers as opposed to the unit on whole.
            – Sora Tamashii
            yesterday










          • "Hang a lampshade on it." Acknowledge it so it can be dismissed, then move on.
            – wetcircuit
            16 hours ago














          up vote
          7
          down vote













          Shippers will always mistake close friendships as homosexual, because of all the natural chemistry that comes with written close friendships. Folks will have 'shipping goggles' on no matter what, and open affection between guys (who in fiction and real life alike are expected to be cold, distant and aloof to anyone that isn't their romantic interest) is often just the fuel shippers need.



          In terms of how to deal with the phenomenon that is shipping goggles, I'd recommend lampshading it from time to time; accept that it's going to happen and that you can't mind-control readers prone to that sort of thing.



          I have a pair of vitriolic best buds in my story, one being a naturally gentle, intellectual and paternal man who's thrust into a leadership position and the other a confrontational, callous, extremely talented archer who can't teach archery to save his life because his skill's largely innate. They argue all the time, but underneath it all, they both like each other and uncompromisingly act in each other's best interests.



          When they have a particularly bad argument at one point in the story, they hug it out after making up. Here is where I lay the acknowledgement of the shippers; the callous, brusque one puts on fake machismo saying 'this is so inverted' (the in-universe term for homoexuality; 'this is pretty gay' is the modern equivalent), and the gentle, paternal one then saying 'you don't have to dismiss friendship as inverted, just accept the hug and move on'.



          Essentially I both acknowledge the shipping goggles present and roundly mock the idea of it being canon in one fell swoop, while also having a thematic exploration in-universe (namely, deconstructing the idea that all men have to be unfeeling to their friends).






          share|improve this answer




















          • "Shippers"? What's that?
            – Ken Mohnkern
            yesterday






          • 3




            @KenMohnkern People that are invested in the romantic relationships (shortened to 'ships') in fiction. They're everywhere. For example, with the modern series Sherlock, it's just an assumption that 80% of the female fandom ships Sherlock and Watson.
            – Matthew Dave
            yesterday






          • 6




            Note that preventing shipping is completely impossible in the general case. Some readers will happily ship characters that have never met, have nothing in common, are of widely differing ages, have repeatedly tried to kill one another, etc., and there's nothing the author can do to stop it.
            – Kevin
            yesterday







          • 2




            Shipping is an important extreme to consider, but most shippers don't usually write slashfics. A lot do, but only a fringe percentage actually get to that point. To me, the OP seems more concerned about the fujoshi/fudanshi subset of shippers as opposed to the unit on whole.
            – Sora Tamashii
            yesterday










          • "Hang a lampshade on it." Acknowledge it so it can be dismissed, then move on.
            – wetcircuit
            16 hours ago












          up vote
          7
          down vote










          up vote
          7
          down vote









          Shippers will always mistake close friendships as homosexual, because of all the natural chemistry that comes with written close friendships. Folks will have 'shipping goggles' on no matter what, and open affection between guys (who in fiction and real life alike are expected to be cold, distant and aloof to anyone that isn't their romantic interest) is often just the fuel shippers need.



          In terms of how to deal with the phenomenon that is shipping goggles, I'd recommend lampshading it from time to time; accept that it's going to happen and that you can't mind-control readers prone to that sort of thing.



          I have a pair of vitriolic best buds in my story, one being a naturally gentle, intellectual and paternal man who's thrust into a leadership position and the other a confrontational, callous, extremely talented archer who can't teach archery to save his life because his skill's largely innate. They argue all the time, but underneath it all, they both like each other and uncompromisingly act in each other's best interests.



          When they have a particularly bad argument at one point in the story, they hug it out after making up. Here is where I lay the acknowledgement of the shippers; the callous, brusque one puts on fake machismo saying 'this is so inverted' (the in-universe term for homoexuality; 'this is pretty gay' is the modern equivalent), and the gentle, paternal one then saying 'you don't have to dismiss friendship as inverted, just accept the hug and move on'.



          Essentially I both acknowledge the shipping goggles present and roundly mock the idea of it being canon in one fell swoop, while also having a thematic exploration in-universe (namely, deconstructing the idea that all men have to be unfeeling to their friends).






          share|improve this answer












          Shippers will always mistake close friendships as homosexual, because of all the natural chemistry that comes with written close friendships. Folks will have 'shipping goggles' on no matter what, and open affection between guys (who in fiction and real life alike are expected to be cold, distant and aloof to anyone that isn't their romantic interest) is often just the fuel shippers need.



          In terms of how to deal with the phenomenon that is shipping goggles, I'd recommend lampshading it from time to time; accept that it's going to happen and that you can't mind-control readers prone to that sort of thing.



          I have a pair of vitriolic best buds in my story, one being a naturally gentle, intellectual and paternal man who's thrust into a leadership position and the other a confrontational, callous, extremely talented archer who can't teach archery to save his life because his skill's largely innate. They argue all the time, but underneath it all, they both like each other and uncompromisingly act in each other's best interests.



          When they have a particularly bad argument at one point in the story, they hug it out after making up. Here is where I lay the acknowledgement of the shippers; the callous, brusque one puts on fake machismo saying 'this is so inverted' (the in-universe term for homoexuality; 'this is pretty gay' is the modern equivalent), and the gentle, paternal one then saying 'you don't have to dismiss friendship as inverted, just accept the hug and move on'.



          Essentially I both acknowledge the shipping goggles present and roundly mock the idea of it being canon in one fell swoop, while also having a thematic exploration in-universe (namely, deconstructing the idea that all men have to be unfeeling to their friends).







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 2 days ago









          Matthew Dave

          4,469732




          4,469732











          • "Shippers"? What's that?
            – Ken Mohnkern
            yesterday






          • 3




            @KenMohnkern People that are invested in the romantic relationships (shortened to 'ships') in fiction. They're everywhere. For example, with the modern series Sherlock, it's just an assumption that 80% of the female fandom ships Sherlock and Watson.
            – Matthew Dave
            yesterday






          • 6




            Note that preventing shipping is completely impossible in the general case. Some readers will happily ship characters that have never met, have nothing in common, are of widely differing ages, have repeatedly tried to kill one another, etc., and there's nothing the author can do to stop it.
            – Kevin
            yesterday







          • 2




            Shipping is an important extreme to consider, but most shippers don't usually write slashfics. A lot do, but only a fringe percentage actually get to that point. To me, the OP seems more concerned about the fujoshi/fudanshi subset of shippers as opposed to the unit on whole.
            – Sora Tamashii
            yesterday










          • "Hang a lampshade on it." Acknowledge it so it can be dismissed, then move on.
            – wetcircuit
            16 hours ago
















          • "Shippers"? What's that?
            – Ken Mohnkern
            yesterday






          • 3




            @KenMohnkern People that are invested in the romantic relationships (shortened to 'ships') in fiction. They're everywhere. For example, with the modern series Sherlock, it's just an assumption that 80% of the female fandom ships Sherlock and Watson.
            – Matthew Dave
            yesterday






          • 6




            Note that preventing shipping is completely impossible in the general case. Some readers will happily ship characters that have never met, have nothing in common, are of widely differing ages, have repeatedly tried to kill one another, etc., and there's nothing the author can do to stop it.
            – Kevin
            yesterday







          • 2




            Shipping is an important extreme to consider, but most shippers don't usually write slashfics. A lot do, but only a fringe percentage actually get to that point. To me, the OP seems more concerned about the fujoshi/fudanshi subset of shippers as opposed to the unit on whole.
            – Sora Tamashii
            yesterday










          • "Hang a lampshade on it." Acknowledge it so it can be dismissed, then move on.
            – wetcircuit
            16 hours ago















          "Shippers"? What's that?
          – Ken Mohnkern
          yesterday




          "Shippers"? What's that?
          – Ken Mohnkern
          yesterday




          3




          3




          @KenMohnkern People that are invested in the romantic relationships (shortened to 'ships') in fiction. They're everywhere. For example, with the modern series Sherlock, it's just an assumption that 80% of the female fandom ships Sherlock and Watson.
          – Matthew Dave
          yesterday




          @KenMohnkern People that are invested in the romantic relationships (shortened to 'ships') in fiction. They're everywhere. For example, with the modern series Sherlock, it's just an assumption that 80% of the female fandom ships Sherlock and Watson.
          – Matthew Dave
          yesterday




          6




          6




          Note that preventing shipping is completely impossible in the general case. Some readers will happily ship characters that have never met, have nothing in common, are of widely differing ages, have repeatedly tried to kill one another, etc., and there's nothing the author can do to stop it.
          – Kevin
          yesterday





          Note that preventing shipping is completely impossible in the general case. Some readers will happily ship characters that have never met, have nothing in common, are of widely differing ages, have repeatedly tried to kill one another, etc., and there's nothing the author can do to stop it.
          – Kevin
          yesterday





          2




          2




          Shipping is an important extreme to consider, but most shippers don't usually write slashfics. A lot do, but only a fringe percentage actually get to that point. To me, the OP seems more concerned about the fujoshi/fudanshi subset of shippers as opposed to the unit on whole.
          – Sora Tamashii
          yesterday




          Shipping is an important extreme to consider, but most shippers don't usually write slashfics. A lot do, but only a fringe percentage actually get to that point. To me, the OP seems more concerned about the fujoshi/fudanshi subset of shippers as opposed to the unit on whole.
          – Sora Tamashii
          yesterday












          "Hang a lampshade on it." Acknowledge it so it can be dismissed, then move on.
          – wetcircuit
          16 hours ago




          "Hang a lampshade on it." Acknowledge it so it can be dismissed, then move on.
          – wetcircuit
          16 hours ago










          up vote
          7
          down vote













          It's not you, it's readers




          How can I indicate that a particular relationship is all Philia, no Eros involved?




          You can't. It's not you; it's them.



          When someone ships Spock and Kirk or the Winchesters or Batman and Robin, they are not saying anything about how the characters were written. They are saying that they perceive characteristics about the characters that they would like to see the characters together.



          The same thing is true of opposite sex shipping. Many times fans will want to pair characters even if there is no reason to put the two together. Part of this is that movies and TV tend to include romantic relationships to broaden the story's impact. People who don't like the main plot may still enjoy the subplot. They may identify with half of the pair and be attracted to the other half. Speculating about such relationships then becomes part of the attraction of watching movies. The relationships may make no sense otherwise (dwarf/elf relations in Tolkien?). But movie logic says that some pairing is going to be shipped.



          Slash shipping also has an extra component. It may be that the shipper is saying that both characters are attractive to the shipper. Shipping them allows for erotic fantasies involving both. Without that, the fantasy would have to pick between the cool, logical Spock and the demonstrative and passionate Kirk. Slash shipping offers both in the same fantasy.



          Male vs. female slash




          But for some reason, a strong bond between female friends is accepted, whereas whenever men are involved, sexual overtones get added in.




          I think that you are just wrong on this. A quick Google finds at least one example, Supergirl Recap: Kara and Lena Practically Beg for Slash Fiction About Them in “Luthors”:




          I adore Kara and Lena’s friendship. And the chemistry between her and Melissa Benoist as Kara is off the chain. And yes, I know, they’re just becoming close friends … but when they were sitting on the couch together and Lena was thanking her profusely for believing in her … tell me you didn’t think Lena was going to lean in for a kiss. Was it just me? Maybe it was the leather top Lena was wearing, I dunno.




          There is no evidence that the show intends Kara and Lena to be lovers. Both have shown interest only in men (including the same man, both have dated Jimmy Olsen). If one were to have a lesbian relationship, Alex (short for Alexandra for those who don't watch the show) seems like a far more appropriate partner. This is especially so for Kara, as her dating any other woman might well be seen as a rejection of Alex. Listen to Alex describing her perfect woman sometime, and then think about how many of those boxes that Kara fits.



          This also touches on a big problem that homosexuals (and heterosexuals) have. It's not always obvious whether someone is interested in you in the same way that you are interested in the other person. Alex may be sexually attracted to this beautiful woman with whom she has had close contact for years. Alex may be just now recognizing that she is attracted to women (not universal but not uncommon among homosexuals). It may be hard for her to recognize how she feels about Kara. And if she does recognize it, how would she interpret Kara's actions? If Kara behaves the same way as Alex when Alex recognizes that in her case, it's romantic interest, isn't it reasonable to think that Kara feels the same way?



          It's not the Supergirl writers who are shipping these relationships. It's the fans.



          The point is that people do slash ship female relationships. Off the top of my head, Xena/Gabrielle comes to mind as well. But so much fiction has male leads that you may just be seeing a natural concentration on those characters. Quite often female slash shipping is seen as intentional while male slash shipping is more obviously not.



          Child sexual abuse



          People who have been sexually abused as children sexualize non-romantic relationships. They had their own non-romantic relationships with their uncles, aunts, babysitters, etc. sexualized. This colors the rest of their relationships and their perceptions of relationships in fiction.



          You didn't abuse them (at least I hope not), but they will still view your work in terms of their lives. This is not stoppable by anything that you do. You have no control how others perceive your work.



          General vs. specific



          It may be true that there is something that you may be doing in this specific work where you are encouraging readers to view the characters together. That's really impossible to analyze without the work itself. Let people read the work. If they start slash shipments, ask them why. Address their points with appropriate rewriting if you think their interpretation will be common.



          In general though, slash shipping is not about the author's writing but about the reader. It is out of the author's control.






          share|improve this answer
























            up vote
            7
            down vote













            It's not you, it's readers




            How can I indicate that a particular relationship is all Philia, no Eros involved?




            You can't. It's not you; it's them.



            When someone ships Spock and Kirk or the Winchesters or Batman and Robin, they are not saying anything about how the characters were written. They are saying that they perceive characteristics about the characters that they would like to see the characters together.



            The same thing is true of opposite sex shipping. Many times fans will want to pair characters even if there is no reason to put the two together. Part of this is that movies and TV tend to include romantic relationships to broaden the story's impact. People who don't like the main plot may still enjoy the subplot. They may identify with half of the pair and be attracted to the other half. Speculating about such relationships then becomes part of the attraction of watching movies. The relationships may make no sense otherwise (dwarf/elf relations in Tolkien?). But movie logic says that some pairing is going to be shipped.



            Slash shipping also has an extra component. It may be that the shipper is saying that both characters are attractive to the shipper. Shipping them allows for erotic fantasies involving both. Without that, the fantasy would have to pick between the cool, logical Spock and the demonstrative and passionate Kirk. Slash shipping offers both in the same fantasy.



            Male vs. female slash




            But for some reason, a strong bond between female friends is accepted, whereas whenever men are involved, sexual overtones get added in.




            I think that you are just wrong on this. A quick Google finds at least one example, Supergirl Recap: Kara and Lena Practically Beg for Slash Fiction About Them in “Luthors”:




            I adore Kara and Lena’s friendship. And the chemistry between her and Melissa Benoist as Kara is off the chain. And yes, I know, they’re just becoming close friends … but when they were sitting on the couch together and Lena was thanking her profusely for believing in her … tell me you didn’t think Lena was going to lean in for a kiss. Was it just me? Maybe it was the leather top Lena was wearing, I dunno.




            There is no evidence that the show intends Kara and Lena to be lovers. Both have shown interest only in men (including the same man, both have dated Jimmy Olsen). If one were to have a lesbian relationship, Alex (short for Alexandra for those who don't watch the show) seems like a far more appropriate partner. This is especially so for Kara, as her dating any other woman might well be seen as a rejection of Alex. Listen to Alex describing her perfect woman sometime, and then think about how many of those boxes that Kara fits.



            This also touches on a big problem that homosexuals (and heterosexuals) have. It's not always obvious whether someone is interested in you in the same way that you are interested in the other person. Alex may be sexually attracted to this beautiful woman with whom she has had close contact for years. Alex may be just now recognizing that she is attracted to women (not universal but not uncommon among homosexuals). It may be hard for her to recognize how she feels about Kara. And if she does recognize it, how would she interpret Kara's actions? If Kara behaves the same way as Alex when Alex recognizes that in her case, it's romantic interest, isn't it reasonable to think that Kara feels the same way?



            It's not the Supergirl writers who are shipping these relationships. It's the fans.



            The point is that people do slash ship female relationships. Off the top of my head, Xena/Gabrielle comes to mind as well. But so much fiction has male leads that you may just be seeing a natural concentration on those characters. Quite often female slash shipping is seen as intentional while male slash shipping is more obviously not.



            Child sexual abuse



            People who have been sexually abused as children sexualize non-romantic relationships. They had their own non-romantic relationships with their uncles, aunts, babysitters, etc. sexualized. This colors the rest of their relationships and their perceptions of relationships in fiction.



            You didn't abuse them (at least I hope not), but they will still view your work in terms of their lives. This is not stoppable by anything that you do. You have no control how others perceive your work.



            General vs. specific



            It may be true that there is something that you may be doing in this specific work where you are encouraging readers to view the characters together. That's really impossible to analyze without the work itself. Let people read the work. If they start slash shipments, ask them why. Address their points with appropriate rewriting if you think their interpretation will be common.



            In general though, slash shipping is not about the author's writing but about the reader. It is out of the author's control.






            share|improve this answer






















              up vote
              7
              down vote










              up vote
              7
              down vote









              It's not you, it's readers




              How can I indicate that a particular relationship is all Philia, no Eros involved?




              You can't. It's not you; it's them.



              When someone ships Spock and Kirk or the Winchesters or Batman and Robin, they are not saying anything about how the characters were written. They are saying that they perceive characteristics about the characters that they would like to see the characters together.



              The same thing is true of opposite sex shipping. Many times fans will want to pair characters even if there is no reason to put the two together. Part of this is that movies and TV tend to include romantic relationships to broaden the story's impact. People who don't like the main plot may still enjoy the subplot. They may identify with half of the pair and be attracted to the other half. Speculating about such relationships then becomes part of the attraction of watching movies. The relationships may make no sense otherwise (dwarf/elf relations in Tolkien?). But movie logic says that some pairing is going to be shipped.



              Slash shipping also has an extra component. It may be that the shipper is saying that both characters are attractive to the shipper. Shipping them allows for erotic fantasies involving both. Without that, the fantasy would have to pick between the cool, logical Spock and the demonstrative and passionate Kirk. Slash shipping offers both in the same fantasy.



              Male vs. female slash




              But for some reason, a strong bond between female friends is accepted, whereas whenever men are involved, sexual overtones get added in.




              I think that you are just wrong on this. A quick Google finds at least one example, Supergirl Recap: Kara and Lena Practically Beg for Slash Fiction About Them in “Luthors”:




              I adore Kara and Lena’s friendship. And the chemistry between her and Melissa Benoist as Kara is off the chain. And yes, I know, they’re just becoming close friends … but when they were sitting on the couch together and Lena was thanking her profusely for believing in her … tell me you didn’t think Lena was going to lean in for a kiss. Was it just me? Maybe it was the leather top Lena was wearing, I dunno.




              There is no evidence that the show intends Kara and Lena to be lovers. Both have shown interest only in men (including the same man, both have dated Jimmy Olsen). If one were to have a lesbian relationship, Alex (short for Alexandra for those who don't watch the show) seems like a far more appropriate partner. This is especially so for Kara, as her dating any other woman might well be seen as a rejection of Alex. Listen to Alex describing her perfect woman sometime, and then think about how many of those boxes that Kara fits.



              This also touches on a big problem that homosexuals (and heterosexuals) have. It's not always obvious whether someone is interested in you in the same way that you are interested in the other person. Alex may be sexually attracted to this beautiful woman with whom she has had close contact for years. Alex may be just now recognizing that she is attracted to women (not universal but not uncommon among homosexuals). It may be hard for her to recognize how she feels about Kara. And if she does recognize it, how would she interpret Kara's actions? If Kara behaves the same way as Alex when Alex recognizes that in her case, it's romantic interest, isn't it reasonable to think that Kara feels the same way?



              It's not the Supergirl writers who are shipping these relationships. It's the fans.



              The point is that people do slash ship female relationships. Off the top of my head, Xena/Gabrielle comes to mind as well. But so much fiction has male leads that you may just be seeing a natural concentration on those characters. Quite often female slash shipping is seen as intentional while male slash shipping is more obviously not.



              Child sexual abuse



              People who have been sexually abused as children sexualize non-romantic relationships. They had their own non-romantic relationships with their uncles, aunts, babysitters, etc. sexualized. This colors the rest of their relationships and their perceptions of relationships in fiction.



              You didn't abuse them (at least I hope not), but they will still view your work in terms of their lives. This is not stoppable by anything that you do. You have no control how others perceive your work.



              General vs. specific



              It may be true that there is something that you may be doing in this specific work where you are encouraging readers to view the characters together. That's really impossible to analyze without the work itself. Let people read the work. If they start slash shipments, ask them why. Address their points with appropriate rewriting if you think their interpretation will be common.



              In general though, slash shipping is not about the author's writing but about the reader. It is out of the author's control.






              share|improve this answer












              It's not you, it's readers




              How can I indicate that a particular relationship is all Philia, no Eros involved?




              You can't. It's not you; it's them.



              When someone ships Spock and Kirk or the Winchesters or Batman and Robin, they are not saying anything about how the characters were written. They are saying that they perceive characteristics about the characters that they would like to see the characters together.



              The same thing is true of opposite sex shipping. Many times fans will want to pair characters even if there is no reason to put the two together. Part of this is that movies and TV tend to include romantic relationships to broaden the story's impact. People who don't like the main plot may still enjoy the subplot. They may identify with half of the pair and be attracted to the other half. Speculating about such relationships then becomes part of the attraction of watching movies. The relationships may make no sense otherwise (dwarf/elf relations in Tolkien?). But movie logic says that some pairing is going to be shipped.



              Slash shipping also has an extra component. It may be that the shipper is saying that both characters are attractive to the shipper. Shipping them allows for erotic fantasies involving both. Without that, the fantasy would have to pick between the cool, logical Spock and the demonstrative and passionate Kirk. Slash shipping offers both in the same fantasy.



              Male vs. female slash




              But for some reason, a strong bond between female friends is accepted, whereas whenever men are involved, sexual overtones get added in.




              I think that you are just wrong on this. A quick Google finds at least one example, Supergirl Recap: Kara and Lena Practically Beg for Slash Fiction About Them in “Luthors”:




              I adore Kara and Lena’s friendship. And the chemistry between her and Melissa Benoist as Kara is off the chain. And yes, I know, they’re just becoming close friends … but when they were sitting on the couch together and Lena was thanking her profusely for believing in her … tell me you didn’t think Lena was going to lean in for a kiss. Was it just me? Maybe it was the leather top Lena was wearing, I dunno.




              There is no evidence that the show intends Kara and Lena to be lovers. Both have shown interest only in men (including the same man, both have dated Jimmy Olsen). If one were to have a lesbian relationship, Alex (short for Alexandra for those who don't watch the show) seems like a far more appropriate partner. This is especially so for Kara, as her dating any other woman might well be seen as a rejection of Alex. Listen to Alex describing her perfect woman sometime, and then think about how many of those boxes that Kara fits.



              This also touches on a big problem that homosexuals (and heterosexuals) have. It's not always obvious whether someone is interested in you in the same way that you are interested in the other person. Alex may be sexually attracted to this beautiful woman with whom she has had close contact for years. Alex may be just now recognizing that she is attracted to women (not universal but not uncommon among homosexuals). It may be hard for her to recognize how she feels about Kara. And if she does recognize it, how would she interpret Kara's actions? If Kara behaves the same way as Alex when Alex recognizes that in her case, it's romantic interest, isn't it reasonable to think that Kara feels the same way?



              It's not the Supergirl writers who are shipping these relationships. It's the fans.



              The point is that people do slash ship female relationships. Off the top of my head, Xena/Gabrielle comes to mind as well. But so much fiction has male leads that you may just be seeing a natural concentration on those characters. Quite often female slash shipping is seen as intentional while male slash shipping is more obviously not.



              Child sexual abuse



              People who have been sexually abused as children sexualize non-romantic relationships. They had their own non-romantic relationships with their uncles, aunts, babysitters, etc. sexualized. This colors the rest of their relationships and their perceptions of relationships in fiction.



              You didn't abuse them (at least I hope not), but they will still view your work in terms of their lives. This is not stoppable by anything that you do. You have no control how others perceive your work.



              General vs. specific



              It may be true that there is something that you may be doing in this specific work where you are encouraging readers to view the characters together. That's really impossible to analyze without the work itself. Let people read the work. If they start slash shipments, ask them why. Address their points with appropriate rewriting if you think their interpretation will be common.



              In general though, slash shipping is not about the author's writing but about the reader. It is out of the author's control.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered yesterday









              Brythan

              2012




              2012




















                  up vote
                  5
                  down vote













                  Have them act like male philos friends and not eros lovers.



                  For example, if they call each other "Fatso" and "Bullet-head", readers will tend to think of them as friends. If they call each other "Darling" and "Honey-buns", readers will think of them as lovers.



                  Maybe that's obvious, but I can think of many more subtle examples. If they have an argument and then make up and they hug, that will be a possible sign that they're lovers. If they have an argument and then make up and they say, "Hey, sorry Fred" and "I get it. We're good.", that's more like friends. Could two philos friends hug? Of course? Could too lovers say "sorry" and "that's ok"? Sure. But it's the sort of thing that adds up. If I read a book -- or saw two real men -- who did one "maybe lover" thing and ten "probably friend" things, I'd likely conclude they're friends, not lovers. And vice versa.



                  I've read plenty of books, seen plenty of movies, etc, where two men are friends and it never occurred to me to think they might be gay lovers, because they never act romantic towards each other.



                  I think that to the average heterosexual, the idea that two men might be in a gay relationship is out of the ordinary enough that they won't tend to think of it unless you hit them over the head with it. Homosexuals are like 3% of the population, after all. Like, if a story is set in the United States, I'll generally assume that all the characters are American citizens unless you tell me otherwise or give me strong clues. Not because I am prejudiced against non-Americans, but because the statistical reality is that most people in the US are US citizens. I assume that all characters are of roughly average height unless told otherwise, even though I am well aware of the existence of dwarfs. Etc.



                  Homosexual readers appear to be more likely to see or imagine homosexual relationships. To an extent I can see this: it's presumably part of their daily lives. (Still: I'm white. But if I read a story set in Nigeria, I think I'd assume the characters are black unless otherwise specified. I wouldn't assume they are white just because I'm white. Whatever.)






                  share|improve this answer




















                  • +1, but to correct a mis-perception, about 10% to 15% of the population is gay or bisexual. Scientifically speaking, we can measure sexual arousal in a person, and 15% is also about the number that are physically aroused more by pornography featuring two characters of their own sex, than by pornography featuring two heterosexuals or two characters of the opposite sex, whether they report that physical arousal or not. (American study.) More women than men are willing to report same-sex-as-themselves arousal, which might be a cultural phenomenon in a place not too friendly to male homosexuals.
                    – Amadeus
                    yesterday






                  • 1




                    @Amadeus A study by the National Institute of Health found that 1.6% of Americans self-identify as gay or lesbian, and 0.7% as bisexual. cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr077.pdf Other studies have similar results. I'm sure one can debate methodologies, but that would be a different question, probably not appropriate to this forum. I based my statement on studies such as this.
                    – Jay
                    yesterday






                  • 1




                    "self-identify" means they are willing to admit this in an interview; both to themselves and to strangers. Those that DO self-identify as homosexuals also have physiological reactions consistent with homosexuality as I described. I believe the physiological reactions are far more revealing of actual attraction than the self-reports, especially in countries where homosexuality is heavily stigmatized (as it still is in much of the USA) or even illegal, as it was in all the USA before 1962, and in 14 states as recently as 2003. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States
                    – Amadeus
                    yesterday






                  • 2




                    Amadeus, as Jay said, if you want to continue this chat, you should take it to a chatroom. Comments are not for extended discussion. That said, the methodologies of these studies may be interesting to compare before you two talk. Share your studies in a chat and discuss it there. As for my comment: Jay, sorry, but due to Supernatural doing exactly what you suggest and the result still turning out how they did... I don't think this idea works to outright prevent misinterpretation, just reduce the number of people who misinterpret.
                    – Sora Tamashii
                    yesterday










                  • @SoraTamashii Sure. The goal of 0% misinterpretation of a story is probably near impossible to achieve -- on this subject or others. I've heard people give many interpretations that I find quite bizarre and totally removed from anything in the text. If a reader insists on believing that Harry Potter is really an allegory about the conflict between Apple and Android phones, he's going to find all sorts of subtle clues hidden throughout the books, and he will reply to any effort you make to prove to him that that is not what the author intended by saying that just proves how subtle it is.
                    – Jay
                    12 hours ago














                  up vote
                  5
                  down vote













                  Have them act like male philos friends and not eros lovers.



                  For example, if they call each other "Fatso" and "Bullet-head", readers will tend to think of them as friends. If they call each other "Darling" and "Honey-buns", readers will think of them as lovers.



                  Maybe that's obvious, but I can think of many more subtle examples. If they have an argument and then make up and they hug, that will be a possible sign that they're lovers. If they have an argument and then make up and they say, "Hey, sorry Fred" and "I get it. We're good.", that's more like friends. Could two philos friends hug? Of course? Could too lovers say "sorry" and "that's ok"? Sure. But it's the sort of thing that adds up. If I read a book -- or saw two real men -- who did one "maybe lover" thing and ten "probably friend" things, I'd likely conclude they're friends, not lovers. And vice versa.



                  I've read plenty of books, seen plenty of movies, etc, where two men are friends and it never occurred to me to think they might be gay lovers, because they never act romantic towards each other.



                  I think that to the average heterosexual, the idea that two men might be in a gay relationship is out of the ordinary enough that they won't tend to think of it unless you hit them over the head with it. Homosexuals are like 3% of the population, after all. Like, if a story is set in the United States, I'll generally assume that all the characters are American citizens unless you tell me otherwise or give me strong clues. Not because I am prejudiced against non-Americans, but because the statistical reality is that most people in the US are US citizens. I assume that all characters are of roughly average height unless told otherwise, even though I am well aware of the existence of dwarfs. Etc.



                  Homosexual readers appear to be more likely to see or imagine homosexual relationships. To an extent I can see this: it's presumably part of their daily lives. (Still: I'm white. But if I read a story set in Nigeria, I think I'd assume the characters are black unless otherwise specified. I wouldn't assume they are white just because I'm white. Whatever.)






                  share|improve this answer




















                  • +1, but to correct a mis-perception, about 10% to 15% of the population is gay or bisexual. Scientifically speaking, we can measure sexual arousal in a person, and 15% is also about the number that are physically aroused more by pornography featuring two characters of their own sex, than by pornography featuring two heterosexuals or two characters of the opposite sex, whether they report that physical arousal or not. (American study.) More women than men are willing to report same-sex-as-themselves arousal, which might be a cultural phenomenon in a place not too friendly to male homosexuals.
                    – Amadeus
                    yesterday






                  • 1




                    @Amadeus A study by the National Institute of Health found that 1.6% of Americans self-identify as gay or lesbian, and 0.7% as bisexual. cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr077.pdf Other studies have similar results. I'm sure one can debate methodologies, but that would be a different question, probably not appropriate to this forum. I based my statement on studies such as this.
                    – Jay
                    yesterday






                  • 1




                    "self-identify" means they are willing to admit this in an interview; both to themselves and to strangers. Those that DO self-identify as homosexuals also have physiological reactions consistent with homosexuality as I described. I believe the physiological reactions are far more revealing of actual attraction than the self-reports, especially in countries where homosexuality is heavily stigmatized (as it still is in much of the USA) or even illegal, as it was in all the USA before 1962, and in 14 states as recently as 2003. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States
                    – Amadeus
                    yesterday






                  • 2




                    Amadeus, as Jay said, if you want to continue this chat, you should take it to a chatroom. Comments are not for extended discussion. That said, the methodologies of these studies may be interesting to compare before you two talk. Share your studies in a chat and discuss it there. As for my comment: Jay, sorry, but due to Supernatural doing exactly what you suggest and the result still turning out how they did... I don't think this idea works to outright prevent misinterpretation, just reduce the number of people who misinterpret.
                    – Sora Tamashii
                    yesterday










                  • @SoraTamashii Sure. The goal of 0% misinterpretation of a story is probably near impossible to achieve -- on this subject or others. I've heard people give many interpretations that I find quite bizarre and totally removed from anything in the text. If a reader insists on believing that Harry Potter is really an allegory about the conflict between Apple and Android phones, he's going to find all sorts of subtle clues hidden throughout the books, and he will reply to any effort you make to prove to him that that is not what the author intended by saying that just proves how subtle it is.
                    – Jay
                    12 hours ago












                  up vote
                  5
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  5
                  down vote









                  Have them act like male philos friends and not eros lovers.



                  For example, if they call each other "Fatso" and "Bullet-head", readers will tend to think of them as friends. If they call each other "Darling" and "Honey-buns", readers will think of them as lovers.



                  Maybe that's obvious, but I can think of many more subtle examples. If they have an argument and then make up and they hug, that will be a possible sign that they're lovers. If they have an argument and then make up and they say, "Hey, sorry Fred" and "I get it. We're good.", that's more like friends. Could two philos friends hug? Of course? Could too lovers say "sorry" and "that's ok"? Sure. But it's the sort of thing that adds up. If I read a book -- or saw two real men -- who did one "maybe lover" thing and ten "probably friend" things, I'd likely conclude they're friends, not lovers. And vice versa.



                  I've read plenty of books, seen plenty of movies, etc, where two men are friends and it never occurred to me to think they might be gay lovers, because they never act romantic towards each other.



                  I think that to the average heterosexual, the idea that two men might be in a gay relationship is out of the ordinary enough that they won't tend to think of it unless you hit them over the head with it. Homosexuals are like 3% of the population, after all. Like, if a story is set in the United States, I'll generally assume that all the characters are American citizens unless you tell me otherwise or give me strong clues. Not because I am prejudiced against non-Americans, but because the statistical reality is that most people in the US are US citizens. I assume that all characters are of roughly average height unless told otherwise, even though I am well aware of the existence of dwarfs. Etc.



                  Homosexual readers appear to be more likely to see or imagine homosexual relationships. To an extent I can see this: it's presumably part of their daily lives. (Still: I'm white. But if I read a story set in Nigeria, I think I'd assume the characters are black unless otherwise specified. I wouldn't assume they are white just because I'm white. Whatever.)






                  share|improve this answer












                  Have them act like male philos friends and not eros lovers.



                  For example, if they call each other "Fatso" and "Bullet-head", readers will tend to think of them as friends. If they call each other "Darling" and "Honey-buns", readers will think of them as lovers.



                  Maybe that's obvious, but I can think of many more subtle examples. If they have an argument and then make up and they hug, that will be a possible sign that they're lovers. If they have an argument and then make up and they say, "Hey, sorry Fred" and "I get it. We're good.", that's more like friends. Could two philos friends hug? Of course? Could too lovers say "sorry" and "that's ok"? Sure. But it's the sort of thing that adds up. If I read a book -- or saw two real men -- who did one "maybe lover" thing and ten "probably friend" things, I'd likely conclude they're friends, not lovers. And vice versa.



                  I've read plenty of books, seen plenty of movies, etc, where two men are friends and it never occurred to me to think they might be gay lovers, because they never act romantic towards each other.



                  I think that to the average heterosexual, the idea that two men might be in a gay relationship is out of the ordinary enough that they won't tend to think of it unless you hit them over the head with it. Homosexuals are like 3% of the population, after all. Like, if a story is set in the United States, I'll generally assume that all the characters are American citizens unless you tell me otherwise or give me strong clues. Not because I am prejudiced against non-Americans, but because the statistical reality is that most people in the US are US citizens. I assume that all characters are of roughly average height unless told otherwise, even though I am well aware of the existence of dwarfs. Etc.



                  Homosexual readers appear to be more likely to see or imagine homosexual relationships. To an extent I can see this: it's presumably part of their daily lives. (Still: I'm white. But if I read a story set in Nigeria, I think I'd assume the characters are black unless otherwise specified. I wouldn't assume they are white just because I'm white. Whatever.)







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered yesterday









                  Jay

                  17.6k1444




                  17.6k1444











                  • +1, but to correct a mis-perception, about 10% to 15% of the population is gay or bisexual. Scientifically speaking, we can measure sexual arousal in a person, and 15% is also about the number that are physically aroused more by pornography featuring two characters of their own sex, than by pornography featuring two heterosexuals or two characters of the opposite sex, whether they report that physical arousal or not. (American study.) More women than men are willing to report same-sex-as-themselves arousal, which might be a cultural phenomenon in a place not too friendly to male homosexuals.
                    – Amadeus
                    yesterday






                  • 1




                    @Amadeus A study by the National Institute of Health found that 1.6% of Americans self-identify as gay or lesbian, and 0.7% as bisexual. cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr077.pdf Other studies have similar results. I'm sure one can debate methodologies, but that would be a different question, probably not appropriate to this forum. I based my statement on studies such as this.
                    – Jay
                    yesterday






                  • 1




                    "self-identify" means they are willing to admit this in an interview; both to themselves and to strangers. Those that DO self-identify as homosexuals also have physiological reactions consistent with homosexuality as I described. I believe the physiological reactions are far more revealing of actual attraction than the self-reports, especially in countries where homosexuality is heavily stigmatized (as it still is in much of the USA) or even illegal, as it was in all the USA before 1962, and in 14 states as recently as 2003. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States
                    – Amadeus
                    yesterday






                  • 2




                    Amadeus, as Jay said, if you want to continue this chat, you should take it to a chatroom. Comments are not for extended discussion. That said, the methodologies of these studies may be interesting to compare before you two talk. Share your studies in a chat and discuss it there. As for my comment: Jay, sorry, but due to Supernatural doing exactly what you suggest and the result still turning out how they did... I don't think this idea works to outright prevent misinterpretation, just reduce the number of people who misinterpret.
                    – Sora Tamashii
                    yesterday










                  • @SoraTamashii Sure. The goal of 0% misinterpretation of a story is probably near impossible to achieve -- on this subject or others. I've heard people give many interpretations that I find quite bizarre and totally removed from anything in the text. If a reader insists on believing that Harry Potter is really an allegory about the conflict between Apple and Android phones, he's going to find all sorts of subtle clues hidden throughout the books, and he will reply to any effort you make to prove to him that that is not what the author intended by saying that just proves how subtle it is.
                    – Jay
                    12 hours ago
















                  • +1, but to correct a mis-perception, about 10% to 15% of the population is gay or bisexual. Scientifically speaking, we can measure sexual arousal in a person, and 15% is also about the number that are physically aroused more by pornography featuring two characters of their own sex, than by pornography featuring two heterosexuals or two characters of the opposite sex, whether they report that physical arousal or not. (American study.) More women than men are willing to report same-sex-as-themselves arousal, which might be a cultural phenomenon in a place not too friendly to male homosexuals.
                    – Amadeus
                    yesterday






                  • 1




                    @Amadeus A study by the National Institute of Health found that 1.6% of Americans self-identify as gay or lesbian, and 0.7% as bisexual. cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr077.pdf Other studies have similar results. I'm sure one can debate methodologies, but that would be a different question, probably not appropriate to this forum. I based my statement on studies such as this.
                    – Jay
                    yesterday






                  • 1




                    "self-identify" means they are willing to admit this in an interview; both to themselves and to strangers. Those that DO self-identify as homosexuals also have physiological reactions consistent with homosexuality as I described. I believe the physiological reactions are far more revealing of actual attraction than the self-reports, especially in countries where homosexuality is heavily stigmatized (as it still is in much of the USA) or even illegal, as it was in all the USA before 1962, and in 14 states as recently as 2003. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States
                    – Amadeus
                    yesterday






                  • 2




                    Amadeus, as Jay said, if you want to continue this chat, you should take it to a chatroom. Comments are not for extended discussion. That said, the methodologies of these studies may be interesting to compare before you two talk. Share your studies in a chat and discuss it there. As for my comment: Jay, sorry, but due to Supernatural doing exactly what you suggest and the result still turning out how they did... I don't think this idea works to outright prevent misinterpretation, just reduce the number of people who misinterpret.
                    – Sora Tamashii
                    yesterday










                  • @SoraTamashii Sure. The goal of 0% misinterpretation of a story is probably near impossible to achieve -- on this subject or others. I've heard people give many interpretations that I find quite bizarre and totally removed from anything in the text. If a reader insists on believing that Harry Potter is really an allegory about the conflict between Apple and Android phones, he's going to find all sorts of subtle clues hidden throughout the books, and he will reply to any effort you make to prove to him that that is not what the author intended by saying that just proves how subtle it is.
                    – Jay
                    12 hours ago















                  +1, but to correct a mis-perception, about 10% to 15% of the population is gay or bisexual. Scientifically speaking, we can measure sexual arousal in a person, and 15% is also about the number that are physically aroused more by pornography featuring two characters of their own sex, than by pornography featuring two heterosexuals or two characters of the opposite sex, whether they report that physical arousal or not. (American study.) More women than men are willing to report same-sex-as-themselves arousal, which might be a cultural phenomenon in a place not too friendly to male homosexuals.
                  – Amadeus
                  yesterday




                  +1, but to correct a mis-perception, about 10% to 15% of the population is gay or bisexual. Scientifically speaking, we can measure sexual arousal in a person, and 15% is also about the number that are physically aroused more by pornography featuring two characters of their own sex, than by pornography featuring two heterosexuals or two characters of the opposite sex, whether they report that physical arousal or not. (American study.) More women than men are willing to report same-sex-as-themselves arousal, which might be a cultural phenomenon in a place not too friendly to male homosexuals.
                  – Amadeus
                  yesterday




                  1




                  1




                  @Amadeus A study by the National Institute of Health found that 1.6% of Americans self-identify as gay or lesbian, and 0.7% as bisexual. cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr077.pdf Other studies have similar results. I'm sure one can debate methodologies, but that would be a different question, probably not appropriate to this forum. I based my statement on studies such as this.
                  – Jay
                  yesterday




                  @Amadeus A study by the National Institute of Health found that 1.6% of Americans self-identify as gay or lesbian, and 0.7% as bisexual. cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr077.pdf Other studies have similar results. I'm sure one can debate methodologies, but that would be a different question, probably not appropriate to this forum. I based my statement on studies such as this.
                  – Jay
                  yesterday




                  1




                  1




                  "self-identify" means they are willing to admit this in an interview; both to themselves and to strangers. Those that DO self-identify as homosexuals also have physiological reactions consistent with homosexuality as I described. I believe the physiological reactions are far more revealing of actual attraction than the self-reports, especially in countries where homosexuality is heavily stigmatized (as it still is in much of the USA) or even illegal, as it was in all the USA before 1962, and in 14 states as recently as 2003. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States
                  – Amadeus
                  yesterday




                  "self-identify" means they are willing to admit this in an interview; both to themselves and to strangers. Those that DO self-identify as homosexuals also have physiological reactions consistent with homosexuality as I described. I believe the physiological reactions are far more revealing of actual attraction than the self-reports, especially in countries where homosexuality is heavily stigmatized (as it still is in much of the USA) or even illegal, as it was in all the USA before 1962, and in 14 states as recently as 2003. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States
                  – Amadeus
                  yesterday




                  2




                  2




                  Amadeus, as Jay said, if you want to continue this chat, you should take it to a chatroom. Comments are not for extended discussion. That said, the methodologies of these studies may be interesting to compare before you two talk. Share your studies in a chat and discuss it there. As for my comment: Jay, sorry, but due to Supernatural doing exactly what you suggest and the result still turning out how they did... I don't think this idea works to outright prevent misinterpretation, just reduce the number of people who misinterpret.
                  – Sora Tamashii
                  yesterday




                  Amadeus, as Jay said, if you want to continue this chat, you should take it to a chatroom. Comments are not for extended discussion. That said, the methodologies of these studies may be interesting to compare before you two talk. Share your studies in a chat and discuss it there. As for my comment: Jay, sorry, but due to Supernatural doing exactly what you suggest and the result still turning out how they did... I don't think this idea works to outright prevent misinterpretation, just reduce the number of people who misinterpret.
                  – Sora Tamashii
                  yesterday












                  @SoraTamashii Sure. The goal of 0% misinterpretation of a story is probably near impossible to achieve -- on this subject or others. I've heard people give many interpretations that I find quite bizarre and totally removed from anything in the text. If a reader insists on believing that Harry Potter is really an allegory about the conflict between Apple and Android phones, he's going to find all sorts of subtle clues hidden throughout the books, and he will reply to any effort you make to prove to him that that is not what the author intended by saying that just proves how subtle it is.
                  – Jay
                  12 hours ago




                  @SoraTamashii Sure. The goal of 0% misinterpretation of a story is probably near impossible to achieve -- on this subject or others. I've heard people give many interpretations that I find quite bizarre and totally removed from anything in the text. If a reader insists on believing that Harry Potter is really an allegory about the conflict between Apple and Android phones, he's going to find all sorts of subtle clues hidden throughout the books, and he will reply to any effort you make to prove to him that that is not what the author intended by saying that just proves how subtle it is.
                  – Jay
                  12 hours ago










                  up vote
                  4
                  down vote













                  There are three frames of reference here: The author's intention, the way the audience receives the characters, and, arguably (but controversially) whatever reality the characters take on in themselves.



                  Of the three, you're really only responsible for (and fully in control of) the first. Write the characters in whatever way makes sense to you, and seems most true to their own reality as you perceive it, and the story you want to tell. Fans who want to see a relationship between ANY two characters can always build a case to support that, no matter what you do. Part of the issue is that many of the aspects of a strong platonic relationship are similar to that of a romantic relationship, and the ones that are not are the same ones that would be repressed or hidden in a clandestine relationship, or in the case of unwanted feelings. The more you, or your characters, try to deny a romantic side to this relationship, the more convinced people are that it exists. Ironically, the best real-life signal that a relationship is genuinely platonic is a lack of tension or conflict around the topic. When two friends aren't worried or bothered at all by being perceived as a couple, it usually means they aren't one. You can even lampshade this a bit by having the friends joke about how everyone thinks they're secretly involved.



                  A lot also depends on context. A historical novel, or one placed in a setting where relationships are more often homosocial than homosexual will have less of a challenge in justifying the kind of relationship you want to present.






                  share|improve this answer


























                    up vote
                    4
                    down vote













                    There are three frames of reference here: The author's intention, the way the audience receives the characters, and, arguably (but controversially) whatever reality the characters take on in themselves.



                    Of the three, you're really only responsible for (and fully in control of) the first. Write the characters in whatever way makes sense to you, and seems most true to their own reality as you perceive it, and the story you want to tell. Fans who want to see a relationship between ANY two characters can always build a case to support that, no matter what you do. Part of the issue is that many of the aspects of a strong platonic relationship are similar to that of a romantic relationship, and the ones that are not are the same ones that would be repressed or hidden in a clandestine relationship, or in the case of unwanted feelings. The more you, or your characters, try to deny a romantic side to this relationship, the more convinced people are that it exists. Ironically, the best real-life signal that a relationship is genuinely platonic is a lack of tension or conflict around the topic. When two friends aren't worried or bothered at all by being perceived as a couple, it usually means they aren't one. You can even lampshade this a bit by having the friends joke about how everyone thinks they're secretly involved.



                    A lot also depends on context. A historical novel, or one placed in a setting where relationships are more often homosocial than homosexual will have less of a challenge in justifying the kind of relationship you want to present.






                    share|improve this answer
























                      up vote
                      4
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      4
                      down vote









                      There are three frames of reference here: The author's intention, the way the audience receives the characters, and, arguably (but controversially) whatever reality the characters take on in themselves.



                      Of the three, you're really only responsible for (and fully in control of) the first. Write the characters in whatever way makes sense to you, and seems most true to their own reality as you perceive it, and the story you want to tell. Fans who want to see a relationship between ANY two characters can always build a case to support that, no matter what you do. Part of the issue is that many of the aspects of a strong platonic relationship are similar to that of a romantic relationship, and the ones that are not are the same ones that would be repressed or hidden in a clandestine relationship, or in the case of unwanted feelings. The more you, or your characters, try to deny a romantic side to this relationship, the more convinced people are that it exists. Ironically, the best real-life signal that a relationship is genuinely platonic is a lack of tension or conflict around the topic. When two friends aren't worried or bothered at all by being perceived as a couple, it usually means they aren't one. You can even lampshade this a bit by having the friends joke about how everyone thinks they're secretly involved.



                      A lot also depends on context. A historical novel, or one placed in a setting where relationships are more often homosocial than homosexual will have less of a challenge in justifying the kind of relationship you want to present.






                      share|improve this answer














                      There are three frames of reference here: The author's intention, the way the audience receives the characters, and, arguably (but controversially) whatever reality the characters take on in themselves.



                      Of the three, you're really only responsible for (and fully in control of) the first. Write the characters in whatever way makes sense to you, and seems most true to their own reality as you perceive it, and the story you want to tell. Fans who want to see a relationship between ANY two characters can always build a case to support that, no matter what you do. Part of the issue is that many of the aspects of a strong platonic relationship are similar to that of a romantic relationship, and the ones that are not are the same ones that would be repressed or hidden in a clandestine relationship, or in the case of unwanted feelings. The more you, or your characters, try to deny a romantic side to this relationship, the more convinced people are that it exists. Ironically, the best real-life signal that a relationship is genuinely platonic is a lack of tension or conflict around the topic. When two friends aren't worried or bothered at all by being perceived as a couple, it usually means they aren't one. You can even lampshade this a bit by having the friends joke about how everyone thinks they're secretly involved.



                      A lot also depends on context. A historical novel, or one placed in a setting where relationships are more often homosocial than homosexual will have less of a challenge in justifying the kind of relationship you want to present.







                      share|improve this answer














                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited yesterday

























                      answered yesterday









                      Chris Sunami

                      25.7k33197




                      25.7k33197




















                          up vote
                          2
                          down vote













                          The problem is, you CAN'T prevent people from making slashfics about your characters. Supernatural is the greatest proof of this you could ever have.



                          Sam and Dean Winchester are brothers. Not even half, step-, or adopted brothers. They are 100% blood brothers, and the show makes sure to remind us of this constantly. Still, Win-cest fics are some of the most popular slashfics for Supernatural fans, alongside Destiel fics. You can't avoid it.



                          There's a term in Japanese for these types: 腐女子 (pronounced: fujoshi). It refers to girls who avidly read yaoi or "boys love" stories. In the most extreme cases, the ones that made the term a "necessity" of sorts, fujoshis take even the most mundane, ordinary interactions between two males and fantasize about as many possible sexual undertones their words and actions could possibly have, no matter how deluded the fantasy may be. Of course, these types know that with real people (unless the objects of the fantasy are celebrities), they're just fantasizing, but once they start reading or watching fiction, they'll make every justification for why they're right, why they should be right, or why it's just right for their fantasies to be reality. (This actually got to such a point, an anime called "Kiss Him, Not Me" starring a fujoshi main character was released making fun of the personality type, while also humanizing it.) This term also can work to describe western slashfic writers too. (The term "fudanshi" is the male equivalent of this word. For simplicity, I'll generally only use "fujoshi" in this, but "fudanshi" are included in my intent/meaning.)



                          This isn't to say a little healthy imagination can't be a good thing, but with the (hopefully) fringe members of this already extreme group, so much as walking past each other and not saying a word is confirmation in the fujoshi's mind. I repeat, this is for the extreme and only in regards to fiction (and celebrities). (If you want proof of fujoshis in regards to celebrities, take a look at the Markiplier x Jacksepticeye slashfics.)



                          When it comes down to it, most slashfic writers tend to be the more avid fans of a work, so it makes sense that they'd be avid fans of other things as well. If two characters of the same sex have any kind of relationship, no matter the type, you won't be able to avoid a fujoshi's mislabeling of the relationship. It's an unwritten sub-law of rule 34 of the internet.




                          "If it exists, there is porn of it. No exceptions."



                          • "If there's any form of relationship between two characters of the same sex, a fujoshi/fudanshi has written a slashfic of it. No exceptions."



                          Now the sub-law has been written. It's worth noting



                          If you want to minimize the risk, your best bet is to minimize the exposure your story gets. Fujoshi and fudanshi are everywhere nowadays. If your story gets read by only a few people, you can probably avoid fujoshis/fudanshis from mislabeling relationships. However, it's safe to assume that the larger your readership gets, the more likely a fujoshi/fudanshi will romanticize/sexualize otherwise innocuous relationships.






                          share|improve this answer








                          New contributor




                          Sora Tamashii is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                          Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                            up vote
                            2
                            down vote













                            The problem is, you CAN'T prevent people from making slashfics about your characters. Supernatural is the greatest proof of this you could ever have.



                            Sam and Dean Winchester are brothers. Not even half, step-, or adopted brothers. They are 100% blood brothers, and the show makes sure to remind us of this constantly. Still, Win-cest fics are some of the most popular slashfics for Supernatural fans, alongside Destiel fics. You can't avoid it.



                            There's a term in Japanese for these types: 腐女子 (pronounced: fujoshi). It refers to girls who avidly read yaoi or "boys love" stories. In the most extreme cases, the ones that made the term a "necessity" of sorts, fujoshis take even the most mundane, ordinary interactions between two males and fantasize about as many possible sexual undertones their words and actions could possibly have, no matter how deluded the fantasy may be. Of course, these types know that with real people (unless the objects of the fantasy are celebrities), they're just fantasizing, but once they start reading or watching fiction, they'll make every justification for why they're right, why they should be right, or why it's just right for their fantasies to be reality. (This actually got to such a point, an anime called "Kiss Him, Not Me" starring a fujoshi main character was released making fun of the personality type, while also humanizing it.) This term also can work to describe western slashfic writers too. (The term "fudanshi" is the male equivalent of this word. For simplicity, I'll generally only use "fujoshi" in this, but "fudanshi" are included in my intent/meaning.)



                            This isn't to say a little healthy imagination can't be a good thing, but with the (hopefully) fringe members of this already extreme group, so much as walking past each other and not saying a word is confirmation in the fujoshi's mind. I repeat, this is for the extreme and only in regards to fiction (and celebrities). (If you want proof of fujoshis in regards to celebrities, take a look at the Markiplier x Jacksepticeye slashfics.)



                            When it comes down to it, most slashfic writers tend to be the more avid fans of a work, so it makes sense that they'd be avid fans of other things as well. If two characters of the same sex have any kind of relationship, no matter the type, you won't be able to avoid a fujoshi's mislabeling of the relationship. It's an unwritten sub-law of rule 34 of the internet.




                            "If it exists, there is porn of it. No exceptions."



                            • "If there's any form of relationship between two characters of the same sex, a fujoshi/fudanshi has written a slashfic of it. No exceptions."



                            Now the sub-law has been written. It's worth noting



                            If you want to minimize the risk, your best bet is to minimize the exposure your story gets. Fujoshi and fudanshi are everywhere nowadays. If your story gets read by only a few people, you can probably avoid fujoshis/fudanshis from mislabeling relationships. However, it's safe to assume that the larger your readership gets, the more likely a fujoshi/fudanshi will romanticize/sexualize otherwise innocuous relationships.






                            share|improve this answer








                            New contributor




                            Sora Tamashii is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.



















                              up vote
                              2
                              down vote










                              up vote
                              2
                              down vote









                              The problem is, you CAN'T prevent people from making slashfics about your characters. Supernatural is the greatest proof of this you could ever have.



                              Sam and Dean Winchester are brothers. Not even half, step-, or adopted brothers. They are 100% blood brothers, and the show makes sure to remind us of this constantly. Still, Win-cest fics are some of the most popular slashfics for Supernatural fans, alongside Destiel fics. You can't avoid it.



                              There's a term in Japanese for these types: 腐女子 (pronounced: fujoshi). It refers to girls who avidly read yaoi or "boys love" stories. In the most extreme cases, the ones that made the term a "necessity" of sorts, fujoshis take even the most mundane, ordinary interactions between two males and fantasize about as many possible sexual undertones their words and actions could possibly have, no matter how deluded the fantasy may be. Of course, these types know that with real people (unless the objects of the fantasy are celebrities), they're just fantasizing, but once they start reading or watching fiction, they'll make every justification for why they're right, why they should be right, or why it's just right for their fantasies to be reality. (This actually got to such a point, an anime called "Kiss Him, Not Me" starring a fujoshi main character was released making fun of the personality type, while also humanizing it.) This term also can work to describe western slashfic writers too. (The term "fudanshi" is the male equivalent of this word. For simplicity, I'll generally only use "fujoshi" in this, but "fudanshi" are included in my intent/meaning.)



                              This isn't to say a little healthy imagination can't be a good thing, but with the (hopefully) fringe members of this already extreme group, so much as walking past each other and not saying a word is confirmation in the fujoshi's mind. I repeat, this is for the extreme and only in regards to fiction (and celebrities). (If you want proof of fujoshis in regards to celebrities, take a look at the Markiplier x Jacksepticeye slashfics.)



                              When it comes down to it, most slashfic writers tend to be the more avid fans of a work, so it makes sense that they'd be avid fans of other things as well. If two characters of the same sex have any kind of relationship, no matter the type, you won't be able to avoid a fujoshi's mislabeling of the relationship. It's an unwritten sub-law of rule 34 of the internet.




                              "If it exists, there is porn of it. No exceptions."



                              • "If there's any form of relationship between two characters of the same sex, a fujoshi/fudanshi has written a slashfic of it. No exceptions."



                              Now the sub-law has been written. It's worth noting



                              If you want to minimize the risk, your best bet is to minimize the exposure your story gets. Fujoshi and fudanshi are everywhere nowadays. If your story gets read by only a few people, you can probably avoid fujoshis/fudanshis from mislabeling relationships. However, it's safe to assume that the larger your readership gets, the more likely a fujoshi/fudanshi will romanticize/sexualize otherwise innocuous relationships.






                              share|improve this answer








                              New contributor




                              Sora Tamashii is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.









                              The problem is, you CAN'T prevent people from making slashfics about your characters. Supernatural is the greatest proof of this you could ever have.



                              Sam and Dean Winchester are brothers. Not even half, step-, or adopted brothers. They are 100% blood brothers, and the show makes sure to remind us of this constantly. Still, Win-cest fics are some of the most popular slashfics for Supernatural fans, alongside Destiel fics. You can't avoid it.



                              There's a term in Japanese for these types: 腐女子 (pronounced: fujoshi). It refers to girls who avidly read yaoi or "boys love" stories. In the most extreme cases, the ones that made the term a "necessity" of sorts, fujoshis take even the most mundane, ordinary interactions between two males and fantasize about as many possible sexual undertones their words and actions could possibly have, no matter how deluded the fantasy may be. Of course, these types know that with real people (unless the objects of the fantasy are celebrities), they're just fantasizing, but once they start reading or watching fiction, they'll make every justification for why they're right, why they should be right, or why it's just right for their fantasies to be reality. (This actually got to such a point, an anime called "Kiss Him, Not Me" starring a fujoshi main character was released making fun of the personality type, while also humanizing it.) This term also can work to describe western slashfic writers too. (The term "fudanshi" is the male equivalent of this word. For simplicity, I'll generally only use "fujoshi" in this, but "fudanshi" are included in my intent/meaning.)



                              This isn't to say a little healthy imagination can't be a good thing, but with the (hopefully) fringe members of this already extreme group, so much as walking past each other and not saying a word is confirmation in the fujoshi's mind. I repeat, this is for the extreme and only in regards to fiction (and celebrities). (If you want proof of fujoshis in regards to celebrities, take a look at the Markiplier x Jacksepticeye slashfics.)



                              When it comes down to it, most slashfic writers tend to be the more avid fans of a work, so it makes sense that they'd be avid fans of other things as well. If two characters of the same sex have any kind of relationship, no matter the type, you won't be able to avoid a fujoshi's mislabeling of the relationship. It's an unwritten sub-law of rule 34 of the internet.




                              "If it exists, there is porn of it. No exceptions."



                              • "If there's any form of relationship between two characters of the same sex, a fujoshi/fudanshi has written a slashfic of it. No exceptions."



                              Now the sub-law has been written. It's worth noting



                              If you want to minimize the risk, your best bet is to minimize the exposure your story gets. Fujoshi and fudanshi are everywhere nowadays. If your story gets read by only a few people, you can probably avoid fujoshis/fudanshis from mislabeling relationships. However, it's safe to assume that the larger your readership gets, the more likely a fujoshi/fudanshi will romanticize/sexualize otherwise innocuous relationships.







                              share|improve this answer








                              New contributor




                              Sora Tamashii is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.









                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer






                              New contributor




                              Sora Tamashii is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.









                              answered yesterday









                              Sora Tamashii

                              1512




                              1512




                              New contributor




                              Sora Tamashii is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.





                              New contributor





                              Sora Tamashii is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.






                              Sora Tamashii is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.




















                                  up vote
                                  1
                                  down vote













                                  Another famous fictional pair with this philia bond was Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, protagonists of stories that added up to a half dozen books by Fritz Leiber. He explicitly explored the distinction in one of his later stories, collected in Swords and Ice Magic (I think it was either "The Curse of the Smalls and the Stars" or "The Mouser goes Under", but I don't have my books where I can reach them at present).



                                  An examination of how Leiber wrote this pair of heroes over four decades ought to give a fine example of how to write philia between two men.






                                  share|improve this answer




















                                  • You should expand on how Leiber actually does what OP is asking about in his works (or at least provide a brief summary), rather than just saying "Leiber did it, go read his works".
                                    – V2Blast
                                    3 hours ago














                                  up vote
                                  1
                                  down vote













                                  Another famous fictional pair with this philia bond was Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, protagonists of stories that added up to a half dozen books by Fritz Leiber. He explicitly explored the distinction in one of his later stories, collected in Swords and Ice Magic (I think it was either "The Curse of the Smalls and the Stars" or "The Mouser goes Under", but I don't have my books where I can reach them at present).



                                  An examination of how Leiber wrote this pair of heroes over four decades ought to give a fine example of how to write philia between two men.






                                  share|improve this answer




















                                  • You should expand on how Leiber actually does what OP is asking about in his works (or at least provide a brief summary), rather than just saying "Leiber did it, go read his works".
                                    – V2Blast
                                    3 hours ago












                                  up vote
                                  1
                                  down vote










                                  up vote
                                  1
                                  down vote









                                  Another famous fictional pair with this philia bond was Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, protagonists of stories that added up to a half dozen books by Fritz Leiber. He explicitly explored the distinction in one of his later stories, collected in Swords and Ice Magic (I think it was either "The Curse of the Smalls and the Stars" or "The Mouser goes Under", but I don't have my books where I can reach them at present).



                                  An examination of how Leiber wrote this pair of heroes over four decades ought to give a fine example of how to write philia between two men.






                                  share|improve this answer












                                  Another famous fictional pair with this philia bond was Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, protagonists of stories that added up to a half dozen books by Fritz Leiber. He explicitly explored the distinction in one of his later stories, collected in Swords and Ice Magic (I think it was either "The Curse of the Smalls and the Stars" or "The Mouser goes Under", but I don't have my books where I can reach them at present).



                                  An examination of how Leiber wrote this pair of heroes over four decades ought to give a fine example of how to write philia between two men.







                                  share|improve this answer












                                  share|improve this answer



                                  share|improve this answer










                                  answered yesterday









                                  Zeiss Ikon

                                  2,1152622




                                  2,1152622











                                  • You should expand on how Leiber actually does what OP is asking about in his works (or at least provide a brief summary), rather than just saying "Leiber did it, go read his works".
                                    – V2Blast
                                    3 hours ago
















                                  • You should expand on how Leiber actually does what OP is asking about in his works (or at least provide a brief summary), rather than just saying "Leiber did it, go read his works".
                                    – V2Blast
                                    3 hours ago















                                  You should expand on how Leiber actually does what OP is asking about in his works (or at least provide a brief summary), rather than just saying "Leiber did it, go read his works".
                                  – V2Blast
                                  3 hours ago




                                  You should expand on how Leiber actually does what OP is asking about in his works (or at least provide a brief summary), rather than just saying "Leiber did it, go read his works".
                                  – V2Blast
                                  3 hours ago










                                  up vote
                                  0
                                  down vote













                                  Explain why are your characters more devoted to each other then to their wives



                                  Marriage supposed to be closest bond between two human beings. Of course, that is the theory, in practice things often end up differently. Your characters could have various problems in marriage, for example they could have married based on good looks and those looks are gone, they could have devoted to much time to kids and kids have grown up etc ... Since they are very close friends they could discus these problems with each other, and thus establish they are still attracted to female sex.



                                  One usual and somewhat lazy plot device to establish two characters as heterosexual red-blooded males is to set them up to make comments about other women ("Catherine is a hot piece of tail ..."). This of course could be altered to sound more sophisticated ("Catherine is indeed one exquisite woman ..."), depending on circumstances of your story.



                                  Key would be not to overdo it, and not to make your story some politically correct garbage were you would write some long-winded explanation why your characters are not homosexual, but still support their rights as you do as an author. Instead, simply throw few casual sentences that establish them as heterosexuals and move on.






                                  share|improve this answer
























                                    up vote
                                    0
                                    down vote













                                    Explain why are your characters more devoted to each other then to their wives



                                    Marriage supposed to be closest bond between two human beings. Of course, that is the theory, in practice things often end up differently. Your characters could have various problems in marriage, for example they could have married based on good looks and those looks are gone, they could have devoted to much time to kids and kids have grown up etc ... Since they are very close friends they could discus these problems with each other, and thus establish they are still attracted to female sex.



                                    One usual and somewhat lazy plot device to establish two characters as heterosexual red-blooded males is to set them up to make comments about other women ("Catherine is a hot piece of tail ..."). This of course could be altered to sound more sophisticated ("Catherine is indeed one exquisite woman ..."), depending on circumstances of your story.



                                    Key would be not to overdo it, and not to make your story some politically correct garbage were you would write some long-winded explanation why your characters are not homosexual, but still support their rights as you do as an author. Instead, simply throw few casual sentences that establish them as heterosexuals and move on.






                                    share|improve this answer






















                                      up vote
                                      0
                                      down vote










                                      up vote
                                      0
                                      down vote









                                      Explain why are your characters more devoted to each other then to their wives



                                      Marriage supposed to be closest bond between two human beings. Of course, that is the theory, in practice things often end up differently. Your characters could have various problems in marriage, for example they could have married based on good looks and those looks are gone, they could have devoted to much time to kids and kids have grown up etc ... Since they are very close friends they could discus these problems with each other, and thus establish they are still attracted to female sex.



                                      One usual and somewhat lazy plot device to establish two characters as heterosexual red-blooded males is to set them up to make comments about other women ("Catherine is a hot piece of tail ..."). This of course could be altered to sound more sophisticated ("Catherine is indeed one exquisite woman ..."), depending on circumstances of your story.



                                      Key would be not to overdo it, and not to make your story some politically correct garbage were you would write some long-winded explanation why your characters are not homosexual, but still support their rights as you do as an author. Instead, simply throw few casual sentences that establish them as heterosexuals and move on.






                                      share|improve this answer












                                      Explain why are your characters more devoted to each other then to their wives



                                      Marriage supposed to be closest bond between two human beings. Of course, that is the theory, in practice things often end up differently. Your characters could have various problems in marriage, for example they could have married based on good looks and those looks are gone, they could have devoted to much time to kids and kids have grown up etc ... Since they are very close friends they could discus these problems with each other, and thus establish they are still attracted to female sex.



                                      One usual and somewhat lazy plot device to establish two characters as heterosexual red-blooded males is to set them up to make comments about other women ("Catherine is a hot piece of tail ..."). This of course could be altered to sound more sophisticated ("Catherine is indeed one exquisite woman ..."), depending on circumstances of your story.



                                      Key would be not to overdo it, and not to make your story some politically correct garbage were you would write some long-winded explanation why your characters are not homosexual, but still support their rights as you do as an author. Instead, simply throw few casual sentences that establish them as heterosexuals and move on.







                                      share|improve this answer












                                      share|improve this answer



                                      share|improve this answer










                                      answered 1 hour ago









                                      rs.29

                                      101




                                      101



























                                           

                                          draft saved


                                          draft discarded















































                                           


                                          draft saved


                                          draft discarded














                                          StackExchange.ready(
                                          function ()
                                          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fwriting.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f39669%2fhow-can-i-indicate-that-a-particular-relationship-between-two-male-characters-is%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                                          );

                                          Post as a guest
































































                                          Comments

                                          Post a Comment

                                          Popular posts from this blog

                                          What does second last employer means? [closed]

                                          Image
                                          Clash Royale CLAN TAG #URR8PPP .everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0; up vote -3 down vote favorite Say, for example I have worked in the following companies, Company A => 2010 - 2011 Company B => 2011 - 2012 Company C => 2012 - Till Date Company D => Have offer Now assume Company D is asking to submit documents from my second last employer. So from the list of companies given, which company would be qualified as second last employer? software-industry employer share | improve this question asked Aug 10 '14 at 5:16 Rajaprabhu Aravindasamy 559 1 6 13 closed as off-topic by Jim G., jmort253 ♦ Aug 11 '14 at 1:58 This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason: "Questions seeking advice on company-specific regulations, agreements, or policies should be directed to your manager or HR department. Questions that address...
                                          Read more

                                          List of Gilmore Girls characters

                                          Image
                                          The season three cast—(Back row): Lane, Michel, Paris, Emily, Richard, Sookie, Miss Patty, Kirk; Front row: Jess, Luke, Lorelai, Rory, Dean This is a list of characters for the comedy-drama television series Gilmore Girls . Contents 1 Main characters 1.1 Lorelai Gilmore 1.2 Rory Gilmore 1.3 Sookie St. James 1.4 Lane Kim 1.5 Michel Gerard 1.6 Luke Danes 1.7 Emily Gilmore 1.8 Richard Gilmore 1.9 Paris Geller 1.10 Dean Forester 1.11 Jess Mariano 1.12 Kirk Gleason 1.13 Jason Stiles 1.14 Logan Huntzberger 2 Major recurring characters 2.1 Christopher Hayden 2.2 Jackson Belleville 2.3 Mrs. Kim 2.4 Tristin DuGray 2.5 Max Medina 2.6 Taylor Doose 2.7 Dave Rygalski 2.8 Marty 3 Recurring characters 3.1 Stars Hollow 3.2 Chilton 3.3 Yale 3.4 Other 4 Notable guest stars 5 Unseen characters 6 Notes 7 References Main characters Actor Character Appearances Season 1 Season 2 Season 3 Season 4 Season 5 Season 6 Season 7 A Year in the Life Lauren Graham Lorelai Gilmore...
                                          Read more

                                          Confectionery

                                          Image
                                          Prepared foods made with a lot of sugar or other cabohydrates "Sweetmeat" redirects here. For the racehorse, see Sweetmeat (horse). Not to be confused with Sweetbread. This Kransekake is a traditional Scandinavian baker's confection. Confectionery is the art of making confections , which are food items that are rich in sugar and carbohydrates. Exact definitions are difficult. [1] In general, though, confectionery is divided into two broad and somewhat overlapping categories, bakers' confections and sugar confections. [2] Bakers' confectionery, also called flour confections , includes principally sweet pastries, cakes, and similar baked goods. Sugar confectionery includes candies ( sweets in British English), candied nuts, chocolates, chewing gum, bubble gum, pastillage, and other confections that are made primarily of sugar. In some cases, chocolate confections (confections made of chocolate) are treated as a separate category, as are sugar-free versions of ...
                                          Read more