Hesychius quote: where are those words from?
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Sappho Voigt 117A Campbell 117A number 2 (Campbell has two 117As, one is a quotation from Michael of Italy, the same as Voigt 194A, and the other one is Voigt 117A) is a quote from Hesychius, which reads:
ÃÂÿìýÃÂý ÃÂÃÂÿøÃÂÃÂÃÂý÷ á¼ÂþõÃÂüÃÂýÃÂý
Campbell translates it as:
Smooth doorways, i.e. polished
What I was wondering was: where do those words come from? I mean, þÃÂñýÿàis, I assume, an otherwise unattested word, so why translate it as "smooth"? Or is it otherwise attested, just not recorded in Perseus's LSJ digitalization? Wait: þÃÂñýÿý is a noun meaning "carved image" or "musical instrument"? How does it fit here with another noun? I mean, I guess ÃÂÃÂÃÂøàÃÂÿàcould be an adjective meaning "(placed) before the door", but that doesn't match Campbell's translation, so⦠And á¼ÂþõÃÂüÃÂýÃÂý appears to be a perfect participle, but of which verb? Maybe á¼ÂþÃÂöÿüñù? Not on Perseus, and neither is á¼Âþïöÿüñù⦠What is up here?
vocabulary greek
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Sappho Voigt 117A Campbell 117A number 2 (Campbell has two 117As, one is a quotation from Michael of Italy, the same as Voigt 194A, and the other one is Voigt 117A) is a quote from Hesychius, which reads:
ÃÂÿìýÃÂý ÃÂÃÂÿøÃÂÃÂÃÂý÷ á¼ÂþõÃÂüÃÂýÃÂý
Campbell translates it as:
Smooth doorways, i.e. polished
What I was wondering was: where do those words come from? I mean, þÃÂñýÿàis, I assume, an otherwise unattested word, so why translate it as "smooth"? Or is it otherwise attested, just not recorded in Perseus's LSJ digitalization? Wait: þÃÂñýÿý is a noun meaning "carved image" or "musical instrument"? How does it fit here with another noun? I mean, I guess ÃÂÃÂÃÂøàÃÂÿàcould be an adjective meaning "(placed) before the door", but that doesn't match Campbell's translation, so⦠And á¼ÂþõÃÂüÃÂýÃÂý appears to be a perfect participle, but of which verb? Maybe á¼ÂþÃÂöÿüñù? Not on Perseus, and neither is á¼Âþïöÿüñù⦠What is up here?
vocabulary greek
varro has answered all of your questions. :)
â Alex B.
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
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up vote
2
down vote
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Sappho Voigt 117A Campbell 117A number 2 (Campbell has two 117As, one is a quotation from Michael of Italy, the same as Voigt 194A, and the other one is Voigt 117A) is a quote from Hesychius, which reads:
ÃÂÿìýÃÂý ÃÂÃÂÿøÃÂÃÂÃÂý÷ á¼ÂþõÃÂüÃÂýÃÂý
Campbell translates it as:
Smooth doorways, i.e. polished
What I was wondering was: where do those words come from? I mean, þÃÂñýÿàis, I assume, an otherwise unattested word, so why translate it as "smooth"? Or is it otherwise attested, just not recorded in Perseus's LSJ digitalization? Wait: þÃÂñýÿý is a noun meaning "carved image" or "musical instrument"? How does it fit here with another noun? I mean, I guess ÃÂÃÂÃÂøàÃÂÿàcould be an adjective meaning "(placed) before the door", but that doesn't match Campbell's translation, so⦠And á¼ÂþõÃÂüÃÂýÃÂý appears to be a perfect participle, but of which verb? Maybe á¼ÂþÃÂöÿüñù? Not on Perseus, and neither is á¼Âþïöÿüñù⦠What is up here?
vocabulary greek
Sappho Voigt 117A Campbell 117A number 2 (Campbell has two 117As, one is a quotation from Michael of Italy, the same as Voigt 194A, and the other one is Voigt 117A) is a quote from Hesychius, which reads:
ÃÂÿìýÃÂý ÃÂÃÂÿøÃÂÃÂÃÂý÷ á¼ÂþõÃÂüÃÂýÃÂý
Campbell translates it as:
Smooth doorways, i.e. polished
What I was wondering was: where do those words come from? I mean, þÃÂñýÿàis, I assume, an otherwise unattested word, so why translate it as "smooth"? Or is it otherwise attested, just not recorded in Perseus's LSJ digitalization? Wait: þÃÂñýÿý is a noun meaning "carved image" or "musical instrument"? How does it fit here with another noun? I mean, I guess ÃÂÃÂÃÂøàÃÂÿàcould be an adjective meaning "(placed) before the door", but that doesn't match Campbell's translation, so⦠And á¼ÂþõÃÂüÃÂýÃÂý appears to be a perfect participle, but of which verb? Maybe á¼ÂþÃÂöÿüñù? Not on Perseus, and neither is á¼Âþïöÿüñù⦠What is up here?
vocabulary greek
vocabulary greek
asked 4 hours ago
MickG
1,519513
1,519513
varro has answered all of your questions. :)
â Alex B.
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
varro has answered all of your questions. :)
â Alex B.
3 hours ago
varro has answered all of your questions. :)
â Alex B.
3 hours ago
varro has answered all of your questions. :)
â Alex B.
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
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up vote
2
down vote
accepted
Here's at least a partial answer:
ÃÂόñýÿý, "carved image" looks like it comes from þÿá¿ÂÃÂ, "sculptor's chisel", which in turn comes from þέõùý, "to smooth or polish by scraping". It looks like á¼ÂþõÃÂüέýÿý is a passive participle of the latter verb.
So, at least the general idea of polishing (by scraping) is present in both þÿάýÃÂý and á¼ÂþõÃÂüέýÃÂý, although the details of the construction are not completely clear to me.
Actually, ÃÂÃÂόøàÃÂÿý means "front door", so one can see how þÿάýÃÂý ÃÂÃÂÿøύÃÂÃÂý could have the meaning "polished doors".
One correction though. þÃÂñýÿý is an adjective here - see my screenshot from Latte 1952 (this reference is mentioned in Voigt of course, but MickG decided not to mention such an important thing though).
â Alex B.
3 hours ago
@AlexB.: yes, I was unsure whether it should be construed as a adjective or a noun in apposition.
â varro
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Correction, based on Latte 1952
<<Es ist der einzige unmittelbar erhaltene Beleg für das von xéà  abgeleitete Adjektivum xà Âanós (gebildet wie pithanós steganós epsanós), während sonst nur das Substantivum xóanà Ân "Schnitzbild" vorkommt.>>, aka <<It is the only directly obtained evidence for the adjective xà Âanós derived from xéà  (built like pithanós, steganós, epsanós), while otherwise onlythe noun xóanà Ân, "carved image", occurs>>.
â MickG
2 hours ago
@MickG and? How much was actually preserved from Sappho? Mostly fragments.
â Alex B.
29 mins ago
I was just translating for those (me in primis) who have a hard or impossible time reading German. After working on Sappho so long, I very well know how fragmentary the preservation of her poems is. What did you think I was insinuating with that translation :)?
â MickG
26 mins ago
@MickG I see. Thanks for the English translation then! I thought you were trying to say it was a hapax legomenon.
â Alex B.
23 mins ago
Well, technically it is, as far as we know, isn't it? I mean, the sentence I translated seems to say so... In any case, being attested only once may draw skepticism, but when the adjective is kind of expected, and in a quotation like this where the known noun doesn't fit, I think the only way to make sense of the passage is to posit the adjective. Besides, Hesychius glosses it with an adjective, and he cannot be glossing prothýrà Ân with that, another anti-skepticisim observation.
â MickG
4 mins ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
Here's at least a partial answer:
ÃÂόñýÿý, "carved image" looks like it comes from þÿá¿ÂÃÂ, "sculptor's chisel", which in turn comes from þέõùý, "to smooth or polish by scraping". It looks like á¼ÂþõÃÂüέýÿý is a passive participle of the latter verb.
So, at least the general idea of polishing (by scraping) is present in both þÿάýÃÂý and á¼ÂþõÃÂüέýÃÂý, although the details of the construction are not completely clear to me.
Actually, ÃÂÃÂόøàÃÂÿý means "front door", so one can see how þÿάýÃÂý ÃÂÃÂÿøύÃÂÃÂý could have the meaning "polished doors".
One correction though. þÃÂñýÿý is an adjective here - see my screenshot from Latte 1952 (this reference is mentioned in Voigt of course, but MickG decided not to mention such an important thing though).
â Alex B.
3 hours ago
@AlexB.: yes, I was unsure whether it should be construed as a adjective or a noun in apposition.
â varro
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
Here's at least a partial answer:
ÃÂόñýÿý, "carved image" looks like it comes from þÿá¿ÂÃÂ, "sculptor's chisel", which in turn comes from þέõùý, "to smooth or polish by scraping". It looks like á¼ÂþõÃÂüέýÿý is a passive participle of the latter verb.
So, at least the general idea of polishing (by scraping) is present in both þÿάýÃÂý and á¼ÂþõÃÂüέýÃÂý, although the details of the construction are not completely clear to me.
Actually, ÃÂÃÂόøàÃÂÿý means "front door", so one can see how þÿάýÃÂý ÃÂÃÂÿøύÃÂÃÂý could have the meaning "polished doors".
One correction though. þÃÂñýÿý is an adjective here - see my screenshot from Latte 1952 (this reference is mentioned in Voigt of course, but MickG decided not to mention such an important thing though).
â Alex B.
3 hours ago
@AlexB.: yes, I was unsure whether it should be construed as a adjective or a noun in apposition.
â varro
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
Here's at least a partial answer:
ÃÂόñýÿý, "carved image" looks like it comes from þÿá¿ÂÃÂ, "sculptor's chisel", which in turn comes from þέõùý, "to smooth or polish by scraping". It looks like á¼ÂþõÃÂüέýÿý is a passive participle of the latter verb.
So, at least the general idea of polishing (by scraping) is present in both þÿάýÃÂý and á¼ÂþõÃÂüέýÃÂý, although the details of the construction are not completely clear to me.
Actually, ÃÂÃÂόøàÃÂÿý means "front door", so one can see how þÿάýÃÂý ÃÂÃÂÿøύÃÂÃÂý could have the meaning "polished doors".
Here's at least a partial answer:
ÃÂόñýÿý, "carved image" looks like it comes from þÿá¿ÂÃÂ, "sculptor's chisel", which in turn comes from þέõùý, "to smooth or polish by scraping". It looks like á¼ÂþõÃÂüέýÿý is a passive participle of the latter verb.
So, at least the general idea of polishing (by scraping) is present in both þÿάýÃÂý and á¼ÂþõÃÂüέýÃÂý, although the details of the construction are not completely clear to me.
Actually, ÃÂÃÂόøàÃÂÿý means "front door", so one can see how þÿάýÃÂý ÃÂÃÂÿøύÃÂÃÂý could have the meaning "polished doors".
edited 3 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
varro
2,9031212
2,9031212
One correction though. þÃÂñýÿý is an adjective here - see my screenshot from Latte 1952 (this reference is mentioned in Voigt of course, but MickG decided not to mention such an important thing though).
â Alex B.
3 hours ago
@AlexB.: yes, I was unsure whether it should be construed as a adjective or a noun in apposition.
â varro
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
One correction though. þÃÂñýÿý is an adjective here - see my screenshot from Latte 1952 (this reference is mentioned in Voigt of course, but MickG decided not to mention such an important thing though).
â Alex B.
3 hours ago
@AlexB.: yes, I was unsure whether it should be construed as a adjective or a noun in apposition.
â varro
3 hours ago
One correction though. þÃÂñýÿý is an adjective here - see my screenshot from Latte 1952 (this reference is mentioned in Voigt of course, but MickG decided not to mention such an important thing though).
â Alex B.
3 hours ago
One correction though. þÃÂñýÿý is an adjective here - see my screenshot from Latte 1952 (this reference is mentioned in Voigt of course, but MickG decided not to mention such an important thing though).
â Alex B.
3 hours ago
@AlexB.: yes, I was unsure whether it should be construed as a adjective or a noun in apposition.
â varro
3 hours ago
@AlexB.: yes, I was unsure whether it should be construed as a adjective or a noun in apposition.
â varro
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Correction, based on Latte 1952
<<Es ist der einzige unmittelbar erhaltene Beleg für das von xéà  abgeleitete Adjektivum xà Âanós (gebildet wie pithanós steganós epsanós), während sonst nur das Substantivum xóanà Ân "Schnitzbild" vorkommt.>>, aka <<It is the only directly obtained evidence for the adjective xà Âanós derived from xéà  (built like pithanós, steganós, epsanós), while otherwise onlythe noun xóanà Ân, "carved image", occurs>>.
â MickG
2 hours ago
@MickG and? How much was actually preserved from Sappho? Mostly fragments.
â Alex B.
29 mins ago
I was just translating for those (me in primis) who have a hard or impossible time reading German. After working on Sappho so long, I very well know how fragmentary the preservation of her poems is. What did you think I was insinuating with that translation :)?
â MickG
26 mins ago
@MickG I see. Thanks for the English translation then! I thought you were trying to say it was a hapax legomenon.
â Alex B.
23 mins ago
Well, technically it is, as far as we know, isn't it? I mean, the sentence I translated seems to say so... In any case, being attested only once may draw skepticism, but when the adjective is kind of expected, and in a quotation like this where the known noun doesn't fit, I think the only way to make sense of the passage is to posit the adjective. Besides, Hesychius glosses it with an adjective, and he cannot be glossing prothýrà Ân with that, another anti-skepticisim observation.
â MickG
4 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Correction, based on Latte 1952
<<Es ist der einzige unmittelbar erhaltene Beleg für das von xéà  abgeleitete Adjektivum xà Âanós (gebildet wie pithanós steganós epsanós), während sonst nur das Substantivum xóanà Ân "Schnitzbild" vorkommt.>>, aka <<It is the only directly obtained evidence for the adjective xà Âanós derived from xéà  (built like pithanós, steganós, epsanós), while otherwise onlythe noun xóanà Ân, "carved image", occurs>>.
â MickG
2 hours ago
@MickG and? How much was actually preserved from Sappho? Mostly fragments.
â Alex B.
29 mins ago
I was just translating for those (me in primis) who have a hard or impossible time reading German. After working on Sappho so long, I very well know how fragmentary the preservation of her poems is. What did you think I was insinuating with that translation :)?
â MickG
26 mins ago
@MickG I see. Thanks for the English translation then! I thought you were trying to say it was a hapax legomenon.
â Alex B.
23 mins ago
Well, technically it is, as far as we know, isn't it? I mean, the sentence I translated seems to say so... In any case, being attested only once may draw skepticism, but when the adjective is kind of expected, and in a quotation like this where the known noun doesn't fit, I think the only way to make sense of the passage is to posit the adjective. Besides, Hesychius glosses it with an adjective, and he cannot be glossing prothýrà Ân with that, another anti-skepticisim observation.
â MickG
4 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
Correction, based on Latte 1952
Correction, based on Latte 1952
answered 3 hours ago
Alex B.
7,36911327
7,36911327
<<Es ist der einzige unmittelbar erhaltene Beleg für das von xéà  abgeleitete Adjektivum xà Âanós (gebildet wie pithanós steganós epsanós), während sonst nur das Substantivum xóanà Ân "Schnitzbild" vorkommt.>>, aka <<It is the only directly obtained evidence for the adjective xà Âanós derived from xéà  (built like pithanós, steganós, epsanós), while otherwise onlythe noun xóanà Ân, "carved image", occurs>>.
â MickG
2 hours ago
@MickG and? How much was actually preserved from Sappho? Mostly fragments.
â Alex B.
29 mins ago
I was just translating for those (me in primis) who have a hard or impossible time reading German. After working on Sappho so long, I very well know how fragmentary the preservation of her poems is. What did you think I was insinuating with that translation :)?
â MickG
26 mins ago
@MickG I see. Thanks for the English translation then! I thought you were trying to say it was a hapax legomenon.
â Alex B.
23 mins ago
Well, technically it is, as far as we know, isn't it? I mean, the sentence I translated seems to say so... In any case, being attested only once may draw skepticism, but when the adjective is kind of expected, and in a quotation like this where the known noun doesn't fit, I think the only way to make sense of the passage is to posit the adjective. Besides, Hesychius glosses it with an adjective, and he cannot be glossing prothýrà Ân with that, another anti-skepticisim observation.
â MickG
4 mins ago
add a comment |Â
<<Es ist der einzige unmittelbar erhaltene Beleg für das von xéà  abgeleitete Adjektivum xà Âanós (gebildet wie pithanós steganós epsanós), während sonst nur das Substantivum xóanà Ân "Schnitzbild" vorkommt.>>, aka <<It is the only directly obtained evidence for the adjective xà Âanós derived from xéà  (built like pithanós, steganós, epsanós), while otherwise onlythe noun xóanà Ân, "carved image", occurs>>.
â MickG
2 hours ago
@MickG and? How much was actually preserved from Sappho? Mostly fragments.
â Alex B.
29 mins ago
I was just translating for those (me in primis) who have a hard or impossible time reading German. After working on Sappho so long, I very well know how fragmentary the preservation of her poems is. What did you think I was insinuating with that translation :)?
â MickG
26 mins ago
@MickG I see. Thanks for the English translation then! I thought you were trying to say it was a hapax legomenon.
â Alex B.
23 mins ago
Well, technically it is, as far as we know, isn't it? I mean, the sentence I translated seems to say so... In any case, being attested only once may draw skepticism, but when the adjective is kind of expected, and in a quotation like this where the known noun doesn't fit, I think the only way to make sense of the passage is to posit the adjective. Besides, Hesychius glosses it with an adjective, and he cannot be glossing prothýrà Ân with that, another anti-skepticisim observation.
â MickG
4 mins ago
<<Es ist der einzige unmittelbar erhaltene Beleg für das von xéà  abgeleitete Adjektivum xà Âanós (gebildet wie pithanós steganós epsanós), während sonst nur das Substantivum xóanà Ân "Schnitzbild" vorkommt.>>, aka <<It is the only directly obtained evidence for the adjective xà Âanós derived from xéà  (built like pithanós, steganós, epsanós), while otherwise onlythe noun xóanà Ân, "carved image", occurs>>.
â MickG
2 hours ago
<<Es ist der einzige unmittelbar erhaltene Beleg für das von xéà  abgeleitete Adjektivum xà Âanós (gebildet wie pithanós steganós epsanós), während sonst nur das Substantivum xóanà Ân "Schnitzbild" vorkommt.>>, aka <<It is the only directly obtained evidence for the adjective xà Âanós derived from xéà  (built like pithanós, steganós, epsanós), while otherwise onlythe noun xóanà Ân, "carved image", occurs>>.
â MickG
2 hours ago
@MickG and? How much was actually preserved from Sappho? Mostly fragments.
â Alex B.
29 mins ago
@MickG and? How much was actually preserved from Sappho? Mostly fragments.
â Alex B.
29 mins ago
I was just translating for those (me in primis) who have a hard or impossible time reading German. After working on Sappho so long, I very well know how fragmentary the preservation of her poems is. What did you think I was insinuating with that translation :)?
â MickG
26 mins ago
I was just translating for those (me in primis) who have a hard or impossible time reading German. After working on Sappho so long, I very well know how fragmentary the preservation of her poems is. What did you think I was insinuating with that translation :)?
â MickG
26 mins ago
@MickG I see. Thanks for the English translation then! I thought you were trying to say it was a hapax legomenon.
â Alex B.
23 mins ago
@MickG I see. Thanks for the English translation then! I thought you were trying to say it was a hapax legomenon.
â Alex B.
23 mins ago
Well, technically it is, as far as we know, isn't it? I mean, the sentence I translated seems to say so... In any case, being attested only once may draw skepticism, but when the adjective is kind of expected, and in a quotation like this where the known noun doesn't fit, I think the only way to make sense of the passage is to posit the adjective. Besides, Hesychius glosses it with an adjective, and he cannot be glossing prothýrà Ân with that, another anti-skepticisim observation.
â MickG
4 mins ago
Well, technically it is, as far as we know, isn't it? I mean, the sentence I translated seems to say so... In any case, being attested only once may draw skepticism, but when the adjective is kind of expected, and in a quotation like this where the known noun doesn't fit, I think the only way to make sense of the passage is to posit the adjective. Besides, Hesychius glosses it with an adjective, and he cannot be glossing prothýrà Ân with that, another anti-skepticisim observation.
â MickG
4 mins ago
add a comment |Â
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varro has answered all of your questions. :)
â Alex B.
3 hours ago