Mixing
Exactly how much refrigerant is in there?
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
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A concern that comes up regularly when troubleshooting A/C problems is whether an A/C system has too little (hello leaks) or too much refrigerant (hello overcharging).
The traditional way to do this involves drawing out all the refrigerant (often with expensive, specialist equipment), which adds considerable overhead to a DIY-er like me as I then have to worry about sourcing compressor oil or recycling the existing refrigerant.
So, is there an environmentally-conscious way to determine the amount of refrigerant present inside an A/C system that does not rely on complete evacuation?
ac diagnostics diy
asked 1 hour ago
Zaid
31.8k2594228
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
A concern that comes up regularly when troubleshooting A/C problems is whether an A/C system has too little (hello leaks) or too much refrigerant (hello overcharging).
The traditional way to do this involves drawing out all the refrigerant (often with expensive, specialist equipment), which adds considerable overhead to a DIY-er like me as I then have to worry about sourcing compressor oil or recycling the existing refrigerant.
So, is there an environmentally-conscious way to determine the amount of refrigerant present inside an A/C system that does not rely on complete evacuation?
ac diagnostics diy
asked 1 hour ago
Zaid
31.8k2594228
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
A concern that comes up regularly when troubleshooting A/C problems is whether an A/C system has too little (hello leaks) or too much refrigerant (hello overcharging).
The traditional way to do this involves drawing out all the refrigerant (often with expensive, specialist equipment), which adds considerable overhead to a DIY-er like me as I then have to worry about sourcing compressor oil or recycling the existing refrigerant.
So, is there an environmentally-conscious way to determine the amount of refrigerant present inside an A/C system that does not rely on complete evacuation?
ac diagnostics diy
asked 1 hour ago
Zaid
31.8k2594228
A concern that comes up regularly when troubleshooting A/C problems is whether an A/C system has too little (hello leaks) or too much refrigerant (hello overcharging).
The traditional way to do this involves drawing out all the refrigerant (often with expensive, specialist equipment), which adds considerable overhead to a DIY-er like me as I then have to worry about sourcing compressor oil or recycling the existing refrigerant.
So, is there an environmentally-conscious way to determine the amount of refrigerant present inside an A/C system that does not rely on complete evacuation?
ac diagnostics diy
ac diagnostics diy
asked 1 hour ago
Zaid
31.8k2594228
asked 1 hour ago
Zaid
31.8k2594228
asked 1 hour ago
Zaid
31.8k2594228
asked 1 hour ago
Zaid
31.8k2594228
asked 1 hour ago
Zaid
31.8k2594228
31.8k2594228
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
TL;DR
Surprisingly yes, it is possible.
For the price of a small fraction of refrigerant it is possible to know how much total refrigerant is inside the A/C system with a few choice measurements.
What's more, it doesn't require equipment that's out of an automotive DIY-er's reach.
Theory
Idealspeak
The Ideal Gas Law can be cajoled into returning the mass of an ideal gas:
m = PVM / RT
where,
m = mass of refrigerant
P = refrigerant pressure
V = A/C system volume (constant)
M = molecular weight of refrigerant (constant)
R = universal gas constant (constant)
T = refrigerant temperature
Both P and T can be measured with a gauge and thermometer respectively. Likewise M and R are known values that do not change.
The thing that prevents us from using this equation directly is the unknown volume of the A/C system, V, a quantity which is practically impossible to measure. In mathematical terms, there are two unknowns and one equation; the system is under-determined.
Determination pays off
Adding a second equation will allow both unknowns, m and V, to be determined.
The second equation can be obtained by removing a known amount of refrigerant (Δm) and measuring new values for P and T.
The initial mass of the system, m1, is given by the following equation:
m1 = P1 * ( T2 / T1 ) * Δm / ( P2 - P1 )
All quantities on the right-hand side of the equation are measured:
- P1 = absolute pressure before refrigerant removal
- T1 = absolute temperature before refrigerant removal
- P2 = absolute pressure after refrigerant removal
- T2 = absolute temperature after refrigerant removal
- ∆m = mass of refrigerant removed
What's cool about this equation is that it doesn't make any assumptions about the type of refrigerant or system volume.
Procedure
Equipment Needed
- Mass scale/luggage scale
- A/C refrigerant mainfold pressure gauge + hoses
- Laser thermometer
- Empty refrigerant bottle
Steps
All measurements are to be done with the A/C off (compressor disengaged). The idea is to have the system at pressure equilibrium as much as possible.
Pre-check
Make sure that the empty bottle is sufficiently empty. Since the system is going to be passively discharged into the bottle, you need to ensure that a sufficient pressure differential exists between system and bottle.
Measure P1
Use the high-side pressure gauge to measure the equilibrium system pressure. Convert gauge to absolute pressure.
Measure T1
Measure the temperature of the high-side port with the laser thermometer. Convert to absolute temperature.
Attach empty bottle
With both gauge valves shut, connect the empty bottle to the manifold pressure gauge's recharge port. DO NOT ADD REFRIGERANT just yet.
Measure mA - initial bottle mass
Determine the mass of the empty bottle with hose. The average of several readings may be necessary to account for measurement uncertainties. This is mA.
Remove some refrigerant
Open one of the valves (high-side will be more convenient) to transfer some refrigerant from the A/C system to the bottle. There will be a limit to the amount of refrigerant that can be transferred.
Measure mB - final bottle mass
Remeasure the mass of the empty bottle (with hose) again. Again, the average of several readings may be necessary to account for uncertainties. This is mB.
Calculate ∆m∆m = mB - mA
Measure P2
Remeasure the equilibrium pressure of the system using the high-side gauge. Convert gauge to absolute pressure.
Measure T2
Remeasure the temperature of the high-side port with the laser thermometer. Convert to absolute temperature; this is T2.
Calculate m1
All the necessary measurements will have been collected by this point.
Caveats & Limitations
- Remember that the formula above estimates the mass of refrigerant before extracting refrigerant, so
m1-∆mworth of refrigerant is left in the system - All pressures and temperatures need to be in absolute units for the calculation to work correctly.
- Results are only going to be as good as the accuracy and resolution of the measurement devices. This is especially true of the mass balance; I found it useful to have a resolution of ±0.005 kg.
- For vehicles with independent front and rear A/C lines and evaporators, be aware that you may be measuring the mass of just part of the system.
- Use the high-pressure gauge for measuring system pressure. The low-pressure gauge will not have sufficient range to measure the equilibrium pressure of a properly charged system.
- It is true that T1 and T2 are not actual measurements of the gas, but port temperatures approximate them well enough.
- If the A/C system needs replenishing at the end of the procedure, it is better to use a separate refrigerant source to top up the system to avoid the risk of contamination from whatever might be inside the empty bottle.
answered 1 hour ago
Zaid
31.8k2594228
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
TL;DR
Surprisingly yes, it is possible.
For the price of a small fraction of refrigerant it is possible to know how much total refrigerant is inside the A/C system with a few choice measurements.
What's more, it doesn't require equipment that's out of an automotive DIY-er's reach.
Theory
Idealspeak
The Ideal Gas Law can be cajoled into returning the mass of an ideal gas:
m = PVM / RT
where,
m = mass of refrigerant
P = refrigerant pressure
V = A/C system volume (constant)
M = molecular weight of refrigerant (constant)
R = universal gas constant (constant)
T = refrigerant temperature
Both P and T can be measured with a gauge and thermometer respectively. Likewise M and R are known values that do not change.
The thing that prevents us from using this equation directly is the unknown volume of the A/C system, V, a quantity which is practically impossible to measure. In mathematical terms, there are two unknowns and one equation; the system is under-determined.
Determination pays off
Adding a second equation will allow both unknowns, m and V, to be determined.
The second equation can be obtained by removing a known amount of refrigerant (Δm) and measuring new values for P and T.
The initial mass of the system, m1, is given by the following equation:
m1 = P1 * ( T2 / T1 ) * Δm / ( P2 - P1 )
All quantities on the right-hand side of the equation are measured:
- P1 = absolute pressure before refrigerant removal
- T1 = absolute temperature before refrigerant removal
- P2 = absolute pressure after refrigerant removal
- T2 = absolute temperature after refrigerant removal
- ∆m = mass of refrigerant removed
What's cool about this equation is that it doesn't make any assumptions about the type of refrigerant or system volume.
Procedure
Equipment Needed
- Mass scale/luggage scale
- A/C refrigerant mainfold pressure gauge + hoses
- Laser thermometer
- Empty refrigerant bottle
Steps
All measurements are to be done with the A/C off (compressor disengaged). The idea is to have the system at pressure equilibrium as much as possible.
Pre-check
Make sure that the empty bottle is sufficiently empty. Since the system is going to be passively discharged into the bottle, you need to ensure that a sufficient pressure differential exists between system and bottle.
Measure P1
Use the high-side pressure gauge to measure the equilibrium system pressure. Convert gauge to absolute pressure.
Measure T1
Measure the temperature of the high-side port with the laser thermometer. Convert to absolute temperature.
Attach empty bottle
With both gauge valves shut, connect the empty bottle to the manifold pressure gauge's recharge port. DO NOT ADD REFRIGERANT just yet.
Measure mA - initial bottle mass
Determine the mass of the empty bottle with hose. The average of several readings may be necessary to account for measurement uncertainties. This is mA.
Remove some refrigerant
Open one of the valves (high-side will be more convenient) to transfer some refrigerant from the A/C system to the bottle. There will be a limit to the amount of refrigerant that can be transferred.
Measure mB - final bottle mass
Remeasure the mass of the empty bottle (with hose) again. Again, the average of several readings may be necessary to account for uncertainties. This is mB.
Calculate ∆m∆m = mB - mA
Measure P2
Remeasure the equilibrium pressure of the system using the high-side gauge. Convert gauge to absolute pressure.
Measure T2
Remeasure the temperature of the high-side port with the laser thermometer. Convert to absolute temperature; this is T2.
Calculate m1
All the necessary measurements will have been collected by this point.
Caveats & Limitations
- Remember that the formula above estimates the mass of refrigerant before extracting refrigerant, so
m1-∆mworth of refrigerant is left in the system - All pressures and temperatures need to be in absolute units for the calculation to work correctly.
- Results are only going to be as good as the accuracy and resolution of the measurement devices. This is especially true of the mass balance; I found it useful to have a resolution of ±0.005 kg.
- For vehicles with independent front and rear A/C lines and evaporators, be aware that you may be measuring the mass of just part of the system.
- Use the high-pressure gauge for measuring system pressure. The low-pressure gauge will not have sufficient range to measure the equilibrium pressure of a properly charged system.
- It is true that T1 and T2 are not actual measurements of the gas, but port temperatures approximate them well enough.
- If the A/C system needs replenishing at the end of the procedure, it is better to use a separate refrigerant source to top up the system to avoid the risk of contamination from whatever might be inside the empty bottle.
answered 1 hour ago
Zaid
31.8k2594228
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
TL;DR
Surprisingly yes, it is possible.
For the price of a small fraction of refrigerant it is possible to know how much total refrigerant is inside the A/C system with a few choice measurements.
What's more, it doesn't require equipment that's out of an automotive DIY-er's reach.
Theory
Idealspeak
The Ideal Gas Law can be cajoled into returning the mass of an ideal gas:
m = PVM / RT
where,
m = mass of refrigerant
P = refrigerant pressure
V = A/C system volume (constant)
M = molecular weight of refrigerant (constant)
R = universal gas constant (constant)
T = refrigerant temperature
Both P and T can be measured with a gauge and thermometer respectively. Likewise M and R are known values that do not change.
The thing that prevents us from using this equation directly is the unknown volume of the A/C system, V, a quantity which is practically impossible to measure. In mathematical terms, there are two unknowns and one equation; the system is under-determined.
Determination pays off
Adding a second equation will allow both unknowns, m and V, to be determined.
The second equation can be obtained by removing a known amount of refrigerant (Δm) and measuring new values for P and T.
The initial mass of the system, m1, is given by the following equation:
m1 = P1 * ( T2 / T1 ) * Δm / ( P2 - P1 )
All quantities on the right-hand side of the equation are measured:
- P1 = absolute pressure before refrigerant removal
- T1 = absolute temperature before refrigerant removal
- P2 = absolute pressure after refrigerant removal
- T2 = absolute temperature after refrigerant removal
- ∆m = mass of refrigerant removed
What's cool about this equation is that it doesn't make any assumptions about the type of refrigerant or system volume.
Procedure
Equipment Needed
- Mass scale/luggage scale
- A/C refrigerant mainfold pressure gauge + hoses
- Laser thermometer
- Empty refrigerant bottle
Steps
All measurements are to be done with the A/C off (compressor disengaged). The idea is to have the system at pressure equilibrium as much as possible.
Pre-check
Make sure that the empty bottle is sufficiently empty. Since the system is going to be passively discharged into the bottle, you need to ensure that a sufficient pressure differential exists between system and bottle.
Measure P1
Use the high-side pressure gauge to measure the equilibrium system pressure. Convert gauge to absolute pressure.
Measure T1
Measure the temperature of the high-side port with the laser thermometer. Convert to absolute temperature.
Attach empty bottle
With both gauge valves shut, connect the empty bottle to the manifold pressure gauge's recharge port. DO NOT ADD REFRIGERANT just yet.
Measure mA - initial bottle mass
Determine the mass of the empty bottle with hose. The average of several readings may be necessary to account for measurement uncertainties. This is mA.
Remove some refrigerant
Open one of the valves (high-side will be more convenient) to transfer some refrigerant from the A/C system to the bottle. There will be a limit to the amount of refrigerant that can be transferred.
Measure mB - final bottle mass
Remeasure the mass of the empty bottle (with hose) again. Again, the average of several readings may be necessary to account for uncertainties. This is mB.
Calculate ∆m∆m = mB - mA
Measure P2
Remeasure the equilibrium pressure of the system using the high-side gauge. Convert gauge to absolute pressure.
Measure T2
Remeasure the temperature of the high-side port with the laser thermometer. Convert to absolute temperature; this is T2.
Calculate m1
All the necessary measurements will have been collected by this point.
Caveats & Limitations
- Remember that the formula above estimates the mass of refrigerant before extracting refrigerant, so
m1-∆mworth of refrigerant is left in the system - All pressures and temperatures need to be in absolute units for the calculation to work correctly.
- Results are only going to be as good as the accuracy and resolution of the measurement devices. This is especially true of the mass balance; I found it useful to have a resolution of ±0.005 kg.
- For vehicles with independent front and rear A/C lines and evaporators, be aware that you may be measuring the mass of just part of the system.
- Use the high-pressure gauge for measuring system pressure. The low-pressure gauge will not have sufficient range to measure the equilibrium pressure of a properly charged system.
- It is true that T1 and T2 are not actual measurements of the gas, but port temperatures approximate them well enough.
- If the A/C system needs replenishing at the end of the procedure, it is better to use a separate refrigerant source to top up the system to avoid the risk of contamination from whatever might be inside the empty bottle.
answered 1 hour ago
Zaid
31.8k2594228
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
TL;DR
Surprisingly yes, it is possible.
For the price of a small fraction of refrigerant it is possible to know how much total refrigerant is inside the A/C system with a few choice measurements.
What's more, it doesn't require equipment that's out of an automotive DIY-er's reach.
Theory
Idealspeak
The Ideal Gas Law can be cajoled into returning the mass of an ideal gas:
m = PVM / RT
where,
m = mass of refrigerant
P = refrigerant pressure
V = A/C system volume (constant)
M = molecular weight of refrigerant (constant)
R = universal gas constant (constant)
T = refrigerant temperature
Both P and T can be measured with a gauge and thermometer respectively. Likewise M and R are known values that do not change.
The thing that prevents us from using this equation directly is the unknown volume of the A/C system, V, a quantity which is practically impossible to measure. In mathematical terms, there are two unknowns and one equation; the system is under-determined.
Determination pays off
Adding a second equation will allow both unknowns, m and V, to be determined.
The second equation can be obtained by removing a known amount of refrigerant (Δm) and measuring new values for P and T.
The initial mass of the system, m1, is given by the following equation:
m1 = P1 * ( T2 / T1 ) * Δm / ( P2 - P1 )
All quantities on the right-hand side of the equation are measured:
- P1 = absolute pressure before refrigerant removal
- T1 = absolute temperature before refrigerant removal
- P2 = absolute pressure after refrigerant removal
- T2 = absolute temperature after refrigerant removal
- ∆m = mass of refrigerant removed
What's cool about this equation is that it doesn't make any assumptions about the type of refrigerant or system volume.
Procedure
Equipment Needed
- Mass scale/luggage scale
- A/C refrigerant mainfold pressure gauge + hoses
- Laser thermometer
- Empty refrigerant bottle
Steps
All measurements are to be done with the A/C off (compressor disengaged). The idea is to have the system at pressure equilibrium as much as possible.
Pre-check
Make sure that the empty bottle is sufficiently empty. Since the system is going to be passively discharged into the bottle, you need to ensure that a sufficient pressure differential exists between system and bottle.
Measure P1
Use the high-side pressure gauge to measure the equilibrium system pressure. Convert gauge to absolute pressure.
Measure T1
Measure the temperature of the high-side port with the laser thermometer. Convert to absolute temperature.
Attach empty bottle
With both gauge valves shut, connect the empty bottle to the manifold pressure gauge's recharge port. DO NOT ADD REFRIGERANT just yet.
Measure mA - initial bottle mass
Determine the mass of the empty bottle with hose. The average of several readings may be necessary to account for measurement uncertainties. This is mA.
Remove some refrigerant
Open one of the valves (high-side will be more convenient) to transfer some refrigerant from the A/C system to the bottle. There will be a limit to the amount of refrigerant that can be transferred.
Measure mB - final bottle mass
Remeasure the mass of the empty bottle (with hose) again. Again, the average of several readings may be necessary to account for uncertainties. This is mB.
Calculate ∆m∆m = mB - mA
Measure P2
Remeasure the equilibrium pressure of the system using the high-side gauge. Convert gauge to absolute pressure.
Measure T2
Remeasure the temperature of the high-side port with the laser thermometer. Convert to absolute temperature; this is T2.
Calculate m1
All the necessary measurements will have been collected by this point.
Caveats & Limitations
- Remember that the formula above estimates the mass of refrigerant before extracting refrigerant, so
m1-∆mworth of refrigerant is left in the system - All pressures and temperatures need to be in absolute units for the calculation to work correctly.
- Results are only going to be as good as the accuracy and resolution of the measurement devices. This is especially true of the mass balance; I found it useful to have a resolution of ±0.005 kg.
- For vehicles with independent front and rear A/C lines and evaporators, be aware that you may be measuring the mass of just part of the system.
- Use the high-pressure gauge for measuring system pressure. The low-pressure gauge will not have sufficient range to measure the equilibrium pressure of a properly charged system.
- It is true that T1 and T2 are not actual measurements of the gas, but port temperatures approximate them well enough.
- If the A/C system needs replenishing at the end of the procedure, it is better to use a separate refrigerant source to top up the system to avoid the risk of contamination from whatever might be inside the empty bottle.
answered 1 hour ago
Zaid
31.8k2594228
TL;DR
Surprisingly yes, it is possible.
For the price of a small fraction of refrigerant it is possible to know how much total refrigerant is inside the A/C system with a few choice measurements.
What's more, it doesn't require equipment that's out of an automotive DIY-er's reach.
Theory
Idealspeak
The Ideal Gas Law can be cajoled into returning the mass of an ideal gas:
m = PVM / RT
where,
m = mass of refrigerant
P = refrigerant pressure
V = A/C system volume (constant)
M = molecular weight of refrigerant (constant)
R = universal gas constant (constant)
T = refrigerant temperature
Both P and T can be measured with a gauge and thermometer respectively. Likewise M and R are known values that do not change.
The thing that prevents us from using this equation directly is the unknown volume of the A/C system, V, a quantity which is practically impossible to measure. In mathematical terms, there are two unknowns and one equation; the system is under-determined.
Determination pays off
Adding a second equation will allow both unknowns, m and V, to be determined.
The second equation can be obtained by removing a known amount of refrigerant (Δm) and measuring new values for P and T.
The initial mass of the system, m1, is given by the following equation:
m1 = P1 * ( T2 / T1 ) * Δm / ( P2 - P1 )
All quantities on the right-hand side of the equation are measured:
- P1 = absolute pressure before refrigerant removal
- T1 = absolute temperature before refrigerant removal
- P2 = absolute pressure after refrigerant removal
- T2 = absolute temperature after refrigerant removal
- ∆m = mass of refrigerant removed
What's cool about this equation is that it doesn't make any assumptions about the type of refrigerant or system volume.
Procedure
Equipment Needed
- Mass scale/luggage scale
- A/C refrigerant mainfold pressure gauge + hoses
- Laser thermometer
- Empty refrigerant bottle
Steps
All measurements are to be done with the A/C off (compressor disengaged). The idea is to have the system at pressure equilibrium as much as possible.
Pre-check
Make sure that the empty bottle is sufficiently empty. Since the system is going to be passively discharged into the bottle, you need to ensure that a sufficient pressure differential exists between system and bottle.
Measure P1
Use the high-side pressure gauge to measure the equilibrium system pressure. Convert gauge to absolute pressure.
Measure T1
Measure the temperature of the high-side port with the laser thermometer. Convert to absolute temperature.
Attach empty bottle
With both gauge valves shut, connect the empty bottle to the manifold pressure gauge's recharge port. DO NOT ADD REFRIGERANT just yet.
Measure mA - initial bottle mass
Determine the mass of the empty bottle with hose. The average of several readings may be necessary to account for measurement uncertainties. This is mA.
Remove some refrigerant
Open one of the valves (high-side will be more convenient) to transfer some refrigerant from the A/C system to the bottle. There will be a limit to the amount of refrigerant that can be transferred.
Measure mB - final bottle mass
Remeasure the mass of the empty bottle (with hose) again. Again, the average of several readings may be necessary to account for uncertainties. This is mB.
Calculate ∆m∆m = mB - mA
Measure P2
Remeasure the equilibrium pressure of the system using the high-side gauge. Convert gauge to absolute pressure.
Measure T2
Remeasure the temperature of the high-side port with the laser thermometer. Convert to absolute temperature; this is T2.
Calculate m1
All the necessary measurements will have been collected by this point.
Caveats & Limitations
- Remember that the formula above estimates the mass of refrigerant before extracting refrigerant, so
m1-∆mworth of refrigerant is left in the system - All pressures and temperatures need to be in absolute units for the calculation to work correctly.
- Results are only going to be as good as the accuracy and resolution of the measurement devices. This is especially true of the mass balance; I found it useful to have a resolution of ±0.005 kg.
- For vehicles with independent front and rear A/C lines and evaporators, be aware that you may be measuring the mass of just part of the system.
- Use the high-pressure gauge for measuring system pressure. The low-pressure gauge will not have sufficient range to measure the equilibrium pressure of a properly charged system.
- It is true that T1 and T2 are not actual measurements of the gas, but port temperatures approximate them well enough.
- If the A/C system needs replenishing at the end of the procedure, it is better to use a separate refrigerant source to top up the system to avoid the risk of contamination from whatever might be inside the empty bottle.
answered 1 hour ago
Zaid
31.8k2594228
answered 1 hour ago
Zaid
31.8k2594228
answered 1 hour ago
Zaid
31.8k2594228
answered 1 hour ago
Zaid
31.8k2594228
31.8k2594228
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
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