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Misdirection for suspense/plot twists - what's acceptable and what's dishonest?
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
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Note: I'm primarily asking this question because while Surtsey, the original asker of the question didn't actually ask a thing (and instead copy-pasted an excerpt of a novel) I believe it's a worthwhile question to ask. With that in mind, let's begin.
Sometimes, tension, drama, or a twist can only be preserved by withholding certain information from the reader. This can be done via a variety of means, such as using a limited POV (where the drama/tension/twisted is experienced by both a character and the reader, as they both know as little as each other) or setting up a red herring, a form of misdirection. There are other kinds of misdirection, but too much of it, and a twist can be considered an 'Ass Pull', that is, pulled from a writer's arse.
A good example of this would be in M Night Shamaylan's Devil, in which several sinners are trapped in an elevator, dying one by one. It's obvious that it's the Devil doing this, but for an extra 'twist', it's revealed a random pickpocketing old lady previously killed was, in fact, the devil, despite there being no previous indication of this (or indeed, there being a need for any of those people to be the Devil considering he's a supernatural entity).
So, with this in mind, where is the line drawn between 'cheating' and 'fair play' with regards to misdirection? I personally have a few takes on the issue:
- Outright lying to the reader is a no-no. A POV character can come to an erroneous conclusion, but it must be honest as far as the POV character knows.
- Any information a POV character knows should not be arbitrarily hidden just to preserve tension. If the plot twist is just magically known all along by every in-universe, but not the reader, it reads as odd.
- Red herrings are legitimate, but should not be egregious. If every piece of evidence points to the red herring and none to the truth, even upon a re-reading, it's a poorly-constructed drama/mystery.
What do you lot think? Is there an objective line, and if so, where is it drawn?
style plotting
asked 4 hours ago
Matthew Dave
2,814425
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
Note: I'm primarily asking this question because while Surtsey, the original asker of the question didn't actually ask a thing (and instead copy-pasted an excerpt of a novel) I believe it's a worthwhile question to ask. With that in mind, let's begin.
Sometimes, tension, drama, or a twist can only be preserved by withholding certain information from the reader. This can be done via a variety of means, such as using a limited POV (where the drama/tension/twisted is experienced by both a character and the reader, as they both know as little as each other) or setting up a red herring, a form of misdirection. There are other kinds of misdirection, but too much of it, and a twist can be considered an 'Ass Pull', that is, pulled from a writer's arse.
A good example of this would be in M Night Shamaylan's Devil, in which several sinners are trapped in an elevator, dying one by one. It's obvious that it's the Devil doing this, but for an extra 'twist', it's revealed a random pickpocketing old lady previously killed was, in fact, the devil, despite there being no previous indication of this (or indeed, there being a need for any of those people to be the Devil considering he's a supernatural entity).
So, with this in mind, where is the line drawn between 'cheating' and 'fair play' with regards to misdirection? I personally have a few takes on the issue:
- Outright lying to the reader is a no-no. A POV character can come to an erroneous conclusion, but it must be honest as far as the POV character knows.
- Any information a POV character knows should not be arbitrarily hidden just to preserve tension. If the plot twist is just magically known all along by every in-universe, but not the reader, it reads as odd.
- Red herrings are legitimate, but should not be egregious. If every piece of evidence points to the red herring and none to the truth, even upon a re-reading, it's a poorly-constructed drama/mystery.
What do you lot think? Is there an objective line, and if so, where is it drawn?
style plotting
asked 4 hours ago
Matthew Dave
2,814425
Nope. No objective line. Novels are not life. You tell a good story. It varies by genre. By age. Hell, fairy tales are complete lies and misdirection to the most innocent members of society. How many kids are still waiting for their letters from Hogwarts? my daughter cried when hers didn't come. No rules, except tell a good story.
– DPT
4 hours ago
@DPT I'm not talking about stories having 'misdirected' morals or indeed being fictional at all like you seem to be getting at, I'm talking about how it affects good storytelling. Whether or not a twist feels 'earned', etc.
– Matthew Dave
4 hours ago
Meh. I don't think there's an objective line. I'm working through a craft book now replete with examples of the most ludicrous scenarios in successful fiction--and why they work. I think you can go as far as you want, with misdirection or whatever, if the whole of the story hangs together. I think looking for a boundary is the wrong approach. So, I think 'no.'
– DPT
3 hours ago
@DPT Fair. Want to write an answer with some of those examples? I'm curious to see what they are.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
1
LOLS, no, I don't think so. I miss Mark.
– DPT
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
Note: I'm primarily asking this question because while Surtsey, the original asker of the question didn't actually ask a thing (and instead copy-pasted an excerpt of a novel) I believe it's a worthwhile question to ask. With that in mind, let's begin.
Sometimes, tension, drama, or a twist can only be preserved by withholding certain information from the reader. This can be done via a variety of means, such as using a limited POV (where the drama/tension/twisted is experienced by both a character and the reader, as they both know as little as each other) or setting up a red herring, a form of misdirection. There are other kinds of misdirection, but too much of it, and a twist can be considered an 'Ass Pull', that is, pulled from a writer's arse.
A good example of this would be in M Night Shamaylan's Devil, in which several sinners are trapped in an elevator, dying one by one. It's obvious that it's the Devil doing this, but for an extra 'twist', it's revealed a random pickpocketing old lady previously killed was, in fact, the devil, despite there being no previous indication of this (or indeed, there being a need for any of those people to be the Devil considering he's a supernatural entity).
So, with this in mind, where is the line drawn between 'cheating' and 'fair play' with regards to misdirection? I personally have a few takes on the issue:
- Outright lying to the reader is a no-no. A POV character can come to an erroneous conclusion, but it must be honest as far as the POV character knows.
- Any information a POV character knows should not be arbitrarily hidden just to preserve tension. If the plot twist is just magically known all along by every in-universe, but not the reader, it reads as odd.
- Red herrings are legitimate, but should not be egregious. If every piece of evidence points to the red herring and none to the truth, even upon a re-reading, it's a poorly-constructed drama/mystery.
What do you lot think? Is there an objective line, and if so, where is it drawn?
style plotting
asked 4 hours ago
Matthew Dave
2,814425
Note: I'm primarily asking this question because while Surtsey, the original asker of the question didn't actually ask a thing (and instead copy-pasted an excerpt of a novel) I believe it's a worthwhile question to ask. With that in mind, let's begin.
Sometimes, tension, drama, or a twist can only be preserved by withholding certain information from the reader. This can be done via a variety of means, such as using a limited POV (where the drama/tension/twisted is experienced by both a character and the reader, as they both know as little as each other) or setting up a red herring, a form of misdirection. There are other kinds of misdirection, but too much of it, and a twist can be considered an 'Ass Pull', that is, pulled from a writer's arse.
A good example of this would be in M Night Shamaylan's Devil, in which several sinners are trapped in an elevator, dying one by one. It's obvious that it's the Devil doing this, but for an extra 'twist', it's revealed a random pickpocketing old lady previously killed was, in fact, the devil, despite there being no previous indication of this (or indeed, there being a need for any of those people to be the Devil considering he's a supernatural entity).
So, with this in mind, where is the line drawn between 'cheating' and 'fair play' with regards to misdirection? I personally have a few takes on the issue:
- Outright lying to the reader is a no-no. A POV character can come to an erroneous conclusion, but it must be honest as far as the POV character knows.
- Any information a POV character knows should not be arbitrarily hidden just to preserve tension. If the plot twist is just magically known all along by every in-universe, but not the reader, it reads as odd.
- Red herrings are legitimate, but should not be egregious. If every piece of evidence points to the red herring and none to the truth, even upon a re-reading, it's a poorly-constructed drama/mystery.
What do you lot think? Is there an objective line, and if so, where is it drawn?
style plotting
style plotting
asked 4 hours ago
Matthew Dave
2,814425
asked 4 hours ago
Matthew Dave
2,814425
edited 3 hours ago
asked 4 hours ago
Matthew Dave
2,814425
asked 4 hours ago
Matthew Dave
2,814425
asked 4 hours ago
Matthew Dave
2,814425
2,814425
Nope. No objective line. Novels are not life. You tell a good story. It varies by genre. By age. Hell, fairy tales are complete lies and misdirection to the most innocent members of society. How many kids are still waiting for their letters from Hogwarts? my daughter cried when hers didn't come. No rules, except tell a good story.
– DPT
4 hours ago
@DPT I'm not talking about stories having 'misdirected' morals or indeed being fictional at all like you seem to be getting at, I'm talking about how it affects good storytelling. Whether or not a twist feels 'earned', etc.
– Matthew Dave
4 hours ago
Meh. I don't think there's an objective line. I'm working through a craft book now replete with examples of the most ludicrous scenarios in successful fiction--and why they work. I think you can go as far as you want, with misdirection or whatever, if the whole of the story hangs together. I think looking for a boundary is the wrong approach. So, I think 'no.'
– DPT
3 hours ago
@DPT Fair. Want to write an answer with some of those examples? I'm curious to see what they are.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
1
LOLS, no, I don't think so. I miss Mark.
– DPT
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
Nope. No objective line. Novels are not life. You tell a good story. It varies by genre. By age. Hell, fairy tales are complete lies and misdirection to the most innocent members of society. How many kids are still waiting for their letters from Hogwarts? my daughter cried when hers didn't come. No rules, except tell a good story.
– DPT
4 hours ago
@DPT I'm not talking about stories having 'misdirected' morals or indeed being fictional at all like you seem to be getting at, I'm talking about how it affects good storytelling. Whether or not a twist feels 'earned', etc.
– Matthew Dave
4 hours ago
Meh. I don't think there's an objective line. I'm working through a craft book now replete with examples of the most ludicrous scenarios in successful fiction--and why they work. I think you can go as far as you want, with misdirection or whatever, if the whole of the story hangs together. I think looking for a boundary is the wrong approach. So, I think 'no.'
– DPT
3 hours ago
@DPT Fair. Want to write an answer with some of those examples? I'm curious to see what they are.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
1
LOLS, no, I don't think so. I miss Mark.
– DPT
3 hours ago
Nope. No objective line. Novels are not life. You tell a good story. It varies by genre. By age. Hell, fairy tales are complete lies and misdirection to the most innocent members of society. How many kids are still waiting for their letters from Hogwarts? my daughter cried when hers didn't come. No rules, except tell a good story.
– DPT
4 hours ago
Nope. No objective line. Novels are not life. You tell a good story. It varies by genre. By age. Hell, fairy tales are complete lies and misdirection to the most innocent members of society. How many kids are still waiting for their letters from Hogwarts? my daughter cried when hers didn't come. No rules, except tell a good story.
– DPT
4 hours ago
@DPT I'm not talking about stories having 'misdirected' morals or indeed being fictional at all like you seem to be getting at, I'm talking about how it affects good storytelling. Whether or not a twist feels 'earned', etc.
– Matthew Dave
4 hours ago
@DPT I'm not talking about stories having 'misdirected' morals or indeed being fictional at all like you seem to be getting at, I'm talking about how it affects good storytelling. Whether or not a twist feels 'earned', etc.
– Matthew Dave
4 hours ago
Meh. I don't think there's an objective line. I'm working through a craft book now replete with examples of the most ludicrous scenarios in successful fiction--and why they work. I think you can go as far as you want, with misdirection or whatever, if the whole of the story hangs together. I think looking for a boundary is the wrong approach. So, I think 'no.'
– DPT
3 hours ago
Meh. I don't think there's an objective line. I'm working through a craft book now replete with examples of the most ludicrous scenarios in successful fiction--and why they work. I think you can go as far as you want, with misdirection or whatever, if the whole of the story hangs together. I think looking for a boundary is the wrong approach. So, I think 'no.'
– DPT
3 hours ago
@DPT Fair. Want to write an answer with some of those examples? I'm curious to see what they are.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
@DPT Fair. Want to write an answer with some of those examples? I'm curious to see what they are.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
1
1
LOLS, no, I don't think so. I miss Mark.
– DPT
3 hours ago
LOLS, no, I don't think so. I miss Mark.
– DPT
3 hours ago
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
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3
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I think the line is subjective, and relates to whether the typical reader will feel like the narrator (that is not the author) cheated or tried to trick them.
Of course the author tried to trick them, that isn't the point. It is if the narrator did. So if you are writing 3rd person omniscient, the narrator knows everything, and pretty much all deception is off limits. Perhaps the narrator can give a cryptic clue, like "Mary did not know how wrong she was," but then the reader knows Mary's perception is wrong, the omniscient narrator is not lying by omission and letting the reader believe Mary's logic was sound.
If you are writing 1st person, or 3rdP Limited, then the narrator only knows what the POV character knows, so deceptions have wide range. But then, the stumbling block becomes plausibility, the MC(s) that are deceived must have plausible reasons for being deceived. It can't just sound good and understandable at the point of deception, it must still sound good and understandable after the reveal. It can't seem like "this character would never fall for that." If the reader goes back and reads the scene where the MC was deceived, knowing the MC is being deceived and how, the reader must still finish saying "Okay yeah, that could happen, and this sounds like the MC."
My favorite example of this is "The Sixth Sense." I watched it as soon as it came out, and did not expect the twist. But I also watched it again, immediately, and ... sure enough, every clue was there throughout the film, and I just missed it. There isn't a single instance where MNS cheats us, it is just done so well that we miss the clues that were in plain sight.
answered 36 mins ago
Amadeus
38.4k245125
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up vote
2
down vote
The problem I always have with this question, and any other question that asks, directly or indirectly, about our readers' knowledge is that no two people ever come at a story from exactly the same place. What I see as a pointless attempt to disguise information or build tension for the "big reveal" many another person sees as clever bit of foreshadowing. They don't instantly recognise the clues for what they are saying and I do, and the same is true in reverse in many other cases; other people see the forest while I'm still looking at the trees even after the answer has been revealed.
In short you can't actually write a story that hides/reveals everything you want hidden, or revealed, to the audience. Not in key parts nor in the narrative as a whole. Give readers the information you want them to have and let the chips fall where they may.
answered 3 hours ago
Ash
3,536327
I'm specifically talking about what information to reveal or not, not what information one magically forces the reader to process somehow. I'm asking which info is revealed or not; that is entirely under the control of the writer.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
And I'm telling you, categorically, that it's not under the control of the writer how much information is actually revealed to the reader by what the writer tells them.
– Ash
3 hours ago
2
This kind of invalidates mystery writing as a craft. There's a reason mystery writers are artists of reveals; writers can and do influence what information is available to the reader and the emotional experience of when/how something is revealed/foreshadowed. Yes, each reader's experience is subjective, but if you use this argument, it can be reapplied to literally any debate on literary technique and say 'why bother with debating this, when what a reader actually experiences from this story is on them, not the writer'.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
1
@MatthewDave Why are you writing for anyone other than yourself? The first and last advise of all the widely published writers I've ever spoken to is the same on this topic; write what you want to write, the way you want to write it, or don't bother at all. To that end the right information to give out is whatever the author thinks they should be saying because they can't control the reader.
– Ash
3 hours ago
@MatthewDave Mysteries and detective novels bore me rigid, there is no "reveal" there's only "here's what those pieces meant for those of you who didn't keep up"
– Ash
3 hours ago
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
All right, so there's some clarity coming out of the discussion with Ash, I think.
Matthew--I'd say that there are definitely rules for reveals. Reveals are the endpoints of misdirects. Reveals are the payoffs to the readers. They are the 'honoring of the contract.'
So. Requirement (boundary): You need to set the contract up front. (1)
How to set the contract?
Let's create an example on the fly. Let's say in a fantasy work that the ruling queen of the land is actually a space alien with no claim to the throne at all. We will reveal this somewhere in the second half of the book. Not the first chapter (not if it's intended as a reveal.) So, timing is another reasonable boundary. (2)
No, the first chapter or three will instead set the readers to see the queen as a legitimate ruler. The more strongly this is implied (use all three of narrative, action, and dialogue to reinforce the idea), the more the reader takes it at face value that the queen's legitimacy does not need to be questioned.
So there's another guideline. It is fair (not cheating) to use narrative, dialog, and action to misdirect. (3)
But. Hints should be dropped into the story. Some indication that aliens exist should be dropped into the story. Some consequence of the queen being illegitimate. Anything about the final reveal that does not follow convention must be set up in some manner before the reveal. That's another rule. (4)
I can't think of anything else offhand. But breaking any of those rules could be grounds to call foul. If the reader doesn't know this fantasy work has space aliens in it, and this is otherwise a typical sword-and-sorcery fantasy, then 'revealing' that the queen is a space alien with no claim to the throne breaks a rule.
Now, why is all of the above wrong?
Because it depends on genre. You can write satire or comedy and get away with breaking rules. As the Stranger in a Strange Land said, humor is a wrongness. If something is done well, even if it's done wrong, we'll enjoy it. If it's wrong in the right way, we will laugh.
Consider the vampire bunny in Python's Quest for the Holy Grail. That fearsome beast came out of the blue, there was nothing in the preceding story that hinted carnivorous bunnies with sharp nasty teeth awaited us. BUT, everything in the story hinted that the entire story would break all the rules.
So, my answer to your question is it depends on the exact story, and that story needs to exist in a rough form for a decision to be reached. Beta readers are valuable here. They'll spot the issues.
answered 1 hour ago
DPT
10.9k22171
1
Nasty big pointy teeth. :)
– Galastel
13 mins ago
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3 Answers
3
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
I think the line is subjective, and relates to whether the typical reader will feel like the narrator (that is not the author) cheated or tried to trick them.
Of course the author tried to trick them, that isn't the point. It is if the narrator did. So if you are writing 3rd person omniscient, the narrator knows everything, and pretty much all deception is off limits. Perhaps the narrator can give a cryptic clue, like "Mary did not know how wrong she was," but then the reader knows Mary's perception is wrong, the omniscient narrator is not lying by omission and letting the reader believe Mary's logic was sound.
If you are writing 1st person, or 3rdP Limited, then the narrator only knows what the POV character knows, so deceptions have wide range. But then, the stumbling block becomes plausibility, the MC(s) that are deceived must have plausible reasons for being deceived. It can't just sound good and understandable at the point of deception, it must still sound good and understandable after the reveal. It can't seem like "this character would never fall for that." If the reader goes back and reads the scene where the MC was deceived, knowing the MC is being deceived and how, the reader must still finish saying "Okay yeah, that could happen, and this sounds like the MC."
My favorite example of this is "The Sixth Sense." I watched it as soon as it came out, and did not expect the twist. But I also watched it again, immediately, and ... sure enough, every clue was there throughout the film, and I just missed it. There isn't a single instance where MNS cheats us, it is just done so well that we miss the clues that were in plain sight.
answered 36 mins ago
Amadeus
38.4k245125
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
I think the line is subjective, and relates to whether the typical reader will feel like the narrator (that is not the author) cheated or tried to trick them.
Of course the author tried to trick them, that isn't the point. It is if the narrator did. So if you are writing 3rd person omniscient, the narrator knows everything, and pretty much all deception is off limits. Perhaps the narrator can give a cryptic clue, like "Mary did not know how wrong she was," but then the reader knows Mary's perception is wrong, the omniscient narrator is not lying by omission and letting the reader believe Mary's logic was sound.
If you are writing 1st person, or 3rdP Limited, then the narrator only knows what the POV character knows, so deceptions have wide range. But then, the stumbling block becomes plausibility, the MC(s) that are deceived must have plausible reasons for being deceived. It can't just sound good and understandable at the point of deception, it must still sound good and understandable after the reveal. It can't seem like "this character would never fall for that." If the reader goes back and reads the scene where the MC was deceived, knowing the MC is being deceived and how, the reader must still finish saying "Okay yeah, that could happen, and this sounds like the MC."
My favorite example of this is "The Sixth Sense." I watched it as soon as it came out, and did not expect the twist. But I also watched it again, immediately, and ... sure enough, every clue was there throughout the film, and I just missed it. There isn't a single instance where MNS cheats us, it is just done so well that we miss the clues that were in plain sight.
answered 36 mins ago
Amadeus
38.4k245125
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
I think the line is subjective, and relates to whether the typical reader will feel like the narrator (that is not the author) cheated or tried to trick them.
Of course the author tried to trick them, that isn't the point. It is if the narrator did. So if you are writing 3rd person omniscient, the narrator knows everything, and pretty much all deception is off limits. Perhaps the narrator can give a cryptic clue, like "Mary did not know how wrong she was," but then the reader knows Mary's perception is wrong, the omniscient narrator is not lying by omission and letting the reader believe Mary's logic was sound.
If you are writing 1st person, or 3rdP Limited, then the narrator only knows what the POV character knows, so deceptions have wide range. But then, the stumbling block becomes plausibility, the MC(s) that are deceived must have plausible reasons for being deceived. It can't just sound good and understandable at the point of deception, it must still sound good and understandable after the reveal. It can't seem like "this character would never fall for that." If the reader goes back and reads the scene where the MC was deceived, knowing the MC is being deceived and how, the reader must still finish saying "Okay yeah, that could happen, and this sounds like the MC."
My favorite example of this is "The Sixth Sense." I watched it as soon as it came out, and did not expect the twist. But I also watched it again, immediately, and ... sure enough, every clue was there throughout the film, and I just missed it. There isn't a single instance where MNS cheats us, it is just done so well that we miss the clues that were in plain sight.
answered 36 mins ago
Amadeus
38.4k245125
I think the line is subjective, and relates to whether the typical reader will feel like the narrator (that is not the author) cheated or tried to trick them.
Of course the author tried to trick them, that isn't the point. It is if the narrator did. So if you are writing 3rd person omniscient, the narrator knows everything, and pretty much all deception is off limits. Perhaps the narrator can give a cryptic clue, like "Mary did not know how wrong she was," but then the reader knows Mary's perception is wrong, the omniscient narrator is not lying by omission and letting the reader believe Mary's logic was sound.
If you are writing 1st person, or 3rdP Limited, then the narrator only knows what the POV character knows, so deceptions have wide range. But then, the stumbling block becomes plausibility, the MC(s) that are deceived must have plausible reasons for being deceived. It can't just sound good and understandable at the point of deception, it must still sound good and understandable after the reveal. It can't seem like "this character would never fall for that." If the reader goes back and reads the scene where the MC was deceived, knowing the MC is being deceived and how, the reader must still finish saying "Okay yeah, that could happen, and this sounds like the MC."
My favorite example of this is "The Sixth Sense." I watched it as soon as it came out, and did not expect the twist. But I also watched it again, immediately, and ... sure enough, every clue was there throughout the film, and I just missed it. There isn't a single instance where MNS cheats us, it is just done so well that we miss the clues that were in plain sight.
answered 36 mins ago
Amadeus
38.4k245125
edited 2 mins ago
answered 36 mins ago
Amadeus
38.4k245125
answered 36 mins ago
Amadeus
38.4k245125
answered 36 mins ago
Amadeus
38.4k245125
38.4k245125
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
The problem I always have with this question, and any other question that asks, directly or indirectly, about our readers' knowledge is that no two people ever come at a story from exactly the same place. What I see as a pointless attempt to disguise information or build tension for the "big reveal" many another person sees as clever bit of foreshadowing. They don't instantly recognise the clues for what they are saying and I do, and the same is true in reverse in many other cases; other people see the forest while I'm still looking at the trees even after the answer has been revealed.
In short you can't actually write a story that hides/reveals everything you want hidden, or revealed, to the audience. Not in key parts nor in the narrative as a whole. Give readers the information you want them to have and let the chips fall where they may.
answered 3 hours ago
Ash
3,536327
I'm specifically talking about what information to reveal or not, not what information one magically forces the reader to process somehow. I'm asking which info is revealed or not; that is entirely under the control of the writer.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
And I'm telling you, categorically, that it's not under the control of the writer how much information is actually revealed to the reader by what the writer tells them.
– Ash
3 hours ago
2
This kind of invalidates mystery writing as a craft. There's a reason mystery writers are artists of reveals; writers can and do influence what information is available to the reader and the emotional experience of when/how something is revealed/foreshadowed. Yes, each reader's experience is subjective, but if you use this argument, it can be reapplied to literally any debate on literary technique and say 'why bother with debating this, when what a reader actually experiences from this story is on them, not the writer'.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
1
@MatthewDave Why are you writing for anyone other than yourself? The first and last advise of all the widely published writers I've ever spoken to is the same on this topic; write what you want to write, the way you want to write it, or don't bother at all. To that end the right information to give out is whatever the author thinks they should be saying because they can't control the reader.
– Ash
3 hours ago
@MatthewDave Mysteries and detective novels bore me rigid, there is no "reveal" there's only "here's what those pieces meant for those of you who didn't keep up"
– Ash
3 hours ago
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
The problem I always have with this question, and any other question that asks, directly or indirectly, about our readers' knowledge is that no two people ever come at a story from exactly the same place. What I see as a pointless attempt to disguise information or build tension for the "big reveal" many another person sees as clever bit of foreshadowing. They don't instantly recognise the clues for what they are saying and I do, and the same is true in reverse in many other cases; other people see the forest while I'm still looking at the trees even after the answer has been revealed.
In short you can't actually write a story that hides/reveals everything you want hidden, or revealed, to the audience. Not in key parts nor in the narrative as a whole. Give readers the information you want them to have and let the chips fall where they may.
answered 3 hours ago
Ash
3,536327
I'm specifically talking about what information to reveal or not, not what information one magically forces the reader to process somehow. I'm asking which info is revealed or not; that is entirely under the control of the writer.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
And I'm telling you, categorically, that it's not under the control of the writer how much information is actually revealed to the reader by what the writer tells them.
– Ash
3 hours ago
2
This kind of invalidates mystery writing as a craft. There's a reason mystery writers are artists of reveals; writers can and do influence what information is available to the reader and the emotional experience of when/how something is revealed/foreshadowed. Yes, each reader's experience is subjective, but if you use this argument, it can be reapplied to literally any debate on literary technique and say 'why bother with debating this, when what a reader actually experiences from this story is on them, not the writer'.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
1
@MatthewDave Why are you writing for anyone other than yourself? The first and last advise of all the widely published writers I've ever spoken to is the same on this topic; write what you want to write, the way you want to write it, or don't bother at all. To that end the right information to give out is whatever the author thinks they should be saying because they can't control the reader.
– Ash
3 hours ago
@MatthewDave Mysteries and detective novels bore me rigid, there is no "reveal" there's only "here's what those pieces meant for those of you who didn't keep up"
– Ash
3 hours ago
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
The problem I always have with this question, and any other question that asks, directly or indirectly, about our readers' knowledge is that no two people ever come at a story from exactly the same place. What I see as a pointless attempt to disguise information or build tension for the "big reveal" many another person sees as clever bit of foreshadowing. They don't instantly recognise the clues for what they are saying and I do, and the same is true in reverse in many other cases; other people see the forest while I'm still looking at the trees even after the answer has been revealed.
In short you can't actually write a story that hides/reveals everything you want hidden, or revealed, to the audience. Not in key parts nor in the narrative as a whole. Give readers the information you want them to have and let the chips fall where they may.
answered 3 hours ago
Ash
3,536327
The problem I always have with this question, and any other question that asks, directly or indirectly, about our readers' knowledge is that no two people ever come at a story from exactly the same place. What I see as a pointless attempt to disguise information or build tension for the "big reveal" many another person sees as clever bit of foreshadowing. They don't instantly recognise the clues for what they are saying and I do, and the same is true in reverse in many other cases; other people see the forest while I'm still looking at the trees even after the answer has been revealed.
In short you can't actually write a story that hides/reveals everything you want hidden, or revealed, to the audience. Not in key parts nor in the narrative as a whole. Give readers the information you want them to have and let the chips fall where they may.
answered 3 hours ago
Ash
3,536327
answered 3 hours ago
Ash
3,536327
answered 3 hours ago
Ash
3,536327
answered 3 hours ago
Ash
3,536327
3,536327
I'm specifically talking about what information to reveal or not, not what information one magically forces the reader to process somehow. I'm asking which info is revealed or not; that is entirely under the control of the writer.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
And I'm telling you, categorically, that it's not under the control of the writer how much information is actually revealed to the reader by what the writer tells them.
– Ash
3 hours ago
2
This kind of invalidates mystery writing as a craft. There's a reason mystery writers are artists of reveals; writers can and do influence what information is available to the reader and the emotional experience of when/how something is revealed/foreshadowed. Yes, each reader's experience is subjective, but if you use this argument, it can be reapplied to literally any debate on literary technique and say 'why bother with debating this, when what a reader actually experiences from this story is on them, not the writer'.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
1
@MatthewDave Why are you writing for anyone other than yourself? The first and last advise of all the widely published writers I've ever spoken to is the same on this topic; write what you want to write, the way you want to write it, or don't bother at all. To that end the right information to give out is whatever the author thinks they should be saying because they can't control the reader.
– Ash
3 hours ago
@MatthewDave Mysteries and detective novels bore me rigid, there is no "reveal" there's only "here's what those pieces meant for those of you who didn't keep up"
– Ash
3 hours ago
 |Â
show 9 more comments
I'm specifically talking about what information to reveal or not, not what information one magically forces the reader to process somehow. I'm asking which info is revealed or not; that is entirely under the control of the writer.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
And I'm telling you, categorically, that it's not under the control of the writer how much information is actually revealed to the reader by what the writer tells them.
– Ash
3 hours ago
2
This kind of invalidates mystery writing as a craft. There's a reason mystery writers are artists of reveals; writers can and do influence what information is available to the reader and the emotional experience of when/how something is revealed/foreshadowed. Yes, each reader's experience is subjective, but if you use this argument, it can be reapplied to literally any debate on literary technique and say 'why bother with debating this, when what a reader actually experiences from this story is on them, not the writer'.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
1
@MatthewDave Why are you writing for anyone other than yourself? The first and last advise of all the widely published writers I've ever spoken to is the same on this topic; write what you want to write, the way you want to write it, or don't bother at all. To that end the right information to give out is whatever the author thinks they should be saying because they can't control the reader.
– Ash
3 hours ago
@MatthewDave Mysteries and detective novels bore me rigid, there is no "reveal" there's only "here's what those pieces meant for those of you who didn't keep up"
– Ash
3 hours ago
I'm specifically talking about what information to reveal or not, not what information one magically forces the reader to process somehow. I'm asking which info is revealed or not; that is entirely under the control of the writer.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
I'm specifically talking about what information to reveal or not, not what information one magically forces the reader to process somehow. I'm asking which info is revealed or not; that is entirely under the control of the writer.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
And I'm telling you, categorically, that it's not under the control of the writer how much information is actually revealed to the reader by what the writer tells them.
– Ash
3 hours ago
And I'm telling you, categorically, that it's not under the control of the writer how much information is actually revealed to the reader by what the writer tells them.
– Ash
3 hours ago
2
2
This kind of invalidates mystery writing as a craft. There's a reason mystery writers are artists of reveals; writers can and do influence what information is available to the reader and the emotional experience of when/how something is revealed/foreshadowed. Yes, each reader's experience is subjective, but if you use this argument, it can be reapplied to literally any debate on literary technique and say 'why bother with debating this, when what a reader actually experiences from this story is on them, not the writer'.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
This kind of invalidates mystery writing as a craft. There's a reason mystery writers are artists of reveals; writers can and do influence what information is available to the reader and the emotional experience of when/how something is revealed/foreshadowed. Yes, each reader's experience is subjective, but if you use this argument, it can be reapplied to literally any debate on literary technique and say 'why bother with debating this, when what a reader actually experiences from this story is on them, not the writer'.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
1
1
@MatthewDave Why are you writing for anyone other than yourself? The first and last advise of all the widely published writers I've ever spoken to is the same on this topic; write what you want to write, the way you want to write it, or don't bother at all. To that end the right information to give out is whatever the author thinks they should be saying because they can't control the reader.
– Ash
3 hours ago
@MatthewDave Why are you writing for anyone other than yourself? The first and last advise of all the widely published writers I've ever spoken to is the same on this topic; write what you want to write, the way you want to write it, or don't bother at all. To that end the right information to give out is whatever the author thinks they should be saying because they can't control the reader.
– Ash
3 hours ago
@MatthewDave Mysteries and detective novels bore me rigid, there is no "reveal" there's only "here's what those pieces meant for those of you who didn't keep up"
– Ash
3 hours ago
@MatthewDave Mysteries and detective novels bore me rigid, there is no "reveal" there's only "here's what those pieces meant for those of you who didn't keep up"
– Ash
3 hours ago
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
All right, so there's some clarity coming out of the discussion with Ash, I think.
Matthew--I'd say that there are definitely rules for reveals. Reveals are the endpoints of misdirects. Reveals are the payoffs to the readers. They are the 'honoring of the contract.'
So. Requirement (boundary): You need to set the contract up front. (1)
How to set the contract?
Let's create an example on the fly. Let's say in a fantasy work that the ruling queen of the land is actually a space alien with no claim to the throne at all. We will reveal this somewhere in the second half of the book. Not the first chapter (not if it's intended as a reveal.) So, timing is another reasonable boundary. (2)
No, the first chapter or three will instead set the readers to see the queen as a legitimate ruler. The more strongly this is implied (use all three of narrative, action, and dialogue to reinforce the idea), the more the reader takes it at face value that the queen's legitimacy does not need to be questioned.
So there's another guideline. It is fair (not cheating) to use narrative, dialog, and action to misdirect. (3)
But. Hints should be dropped into the story. Some indication that aliens exist should be dropped into the story. Some consequence of the queen being illegitimate. Anything about the final reveal that does not follow convention must be set up in some manner before the reveal. That's another rule. (4)
I can't think of anything else offhand. But breaking any of those rules could be grounds to call foul. If the reader doesn't know this fantasy work has space aliens in it, and this is otherwise a typical sword-and-sorcery fantasy, then 'revealing' that the queen is a space alien with no claim to the throne breaks a rule.
Now, why is all of the above wrong?
Because it depends on genre. You can write satire or comedy and get away with breaking rules. As the Stranger in a Strange Land said, humor is a wrongness. If something is done well, even if it's done wrong, we'll enjoy it. If it's wrong in the right way, we will laugh.
Consider the vampire bunny in Python's Quest for the Holy Grail. That fearsome beast came out of the blue, there was nothing in the preceding story that hinted carnivorous bunnies with sharp nasty teeth awaited us. BUT, everything in the story hinted that the entire story would break all the rules.
So, my answer to your question is it depends on the exact story, and that story needs to exist in a rough form for a decision to be reached. Beta readers are valuable here. They'll spot the issues.
answered 1 hour ago
DPT
10.9k22171
1
Nasty big pointy teeth. :)
– Galastel
13 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
All right, so there's some clarity coming out of the discussion with Ash, I think.
Matthew--I'd say that there are definitely rules for reveals. Reveals are the endpoints of misdirects. Reveals are the payoffs to the readers. They are the 'honoring of the contract.'
So. Requirement (boundary): You need to set the contract up front. (1)
How to set the contract?
Let's create an example on the fly. Let's say in a fantasy work that the ruling queen of the land is actually a space alien with no claim to the throne at all. We will reveal this somewhere in the second half of the book. Not the first chapter (not if it's intended as a reveal.) So, timing is another reasonable boundary. (2)
No, the first chapter or three will instead set the readers to see the queen as a legitimate ruler. The more strongly this is implied (use all three of narrative, action, and dialogue to reinforce the idea), the more the reader takes it at face value that the queen's legitimacy does not need to be questioned.
So there's another guideline. It is fair (not cheating) to use narrative, dialog, and action to misdirect. (3)
But. Hints should be dropped into the story. Some indication that aliens exist should be dropped into the story. Some consequence of the queen being illegitimate. Anything about the final reveal that does not follow convention must be set up in some manner before the reveal. That's another rule. (4)
I can't think of anything else offhand. But breaking any of those rules could be grounds to call foul. If the reader doesn't know this fantasy work has space aliens in it, and this is otherwise a typical sword-and-sorcery fantasy, then 'revealing' that the queen is a space alien with no claim to the throne breaks a rule.
Now, why is all of the above wrong?
Because it depends on genre. You can write satire or comedy and get away with breaking rules. As the Stranger in a Strange Land said, humor is a wrongness. If something is done well, even if it's done wrong, we'll enjoy it. If it's wrong in the right way, we will laugh.
Consider the vampire bunny in Python's Quest for the Holy Grail. That fearsome beast came out of the blue, there was nothing in the preceding story that hinted carnivorous bunnies with sharp nasty teeth awaited us. BUT, everything in the story hinted that the entire story would break all the rules.
So, my answer to your question is it depends on the exact story, and that story needs to exist in a rough form for a decision to be reached. Beta readers are valuable here. They'll spot the issues.
answered 1 hour ago
DPT
10.9k22171
1
Nasty big pointy teeth. :)
– Galastel
13 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
All right, so there's some clarity coming out of the discussion with Ash, I think.
Matthew--I'd say that there are definitely rules for reveals. Reveals are the endpoints of misdirects. Reveals are the payoffs to the readers. They are the 'honoring of the contract.'
So. Requirement (boundary): You need to set the contract up front. (1)
How to set the contract?
Let's create an example on the fly. Let's say in a fantasy work that the ruling queen of the land is actually a space alien with no claim to the throne at all. We will reveal this somewhere in the second half of the book. Not the first chapter (not if it's intended as a reveal.) So, timing is another reasonable boundary. (2)
No, the first chapter or three will instead set the readers to see the queen as a legitimate ruler. The more strongly this is implied (use all three of narrative, action, and dialogue to reinforce the idea), the more the reader takes it at face value that the queen's legitimacy does not need to be questioned.
So there's another guideline. It is fair (not cheating) to use narrative, dialog, and action to misdirect. (3)
But. Hints should be dropped into the story. Some indication that aliens exist should be dropped into the story. Some consequence of the queen being illegitimate. Anything about the final reveal that does not follow convention must be set up in some manner before the reveal. That's another rule. (4)
I can't think of anything else offhand. But breaking any of those rules could be grounds to call foul. If the reader doesn't know this fantasy work has space aliens in it, and this is otherwise a typical sword-and-sorcery fantasy, then 'revealing' that the queen is a space alien with no claim to the throne breaks a rule.
Now, why is all of the above wrong?
Because it depends on genre. You can write satire or comedy and get away with breaking rules. As the Stranger in a Strange Land said, humor is a wrongness. If something is done well, even if it's done wrong, we'll enjoy it. If it's wrong in the right way, we will laugh.
Consider the vampire bunny in Python's Quest for the Holy Grail. That fearsome beast came out of the blue, there was nothing in the preceding story that hinted carnivorous bunnies with sharp nasty teeth awaited us. BUT, everything in the story hinted that the entire story would break all the rules.
So, my answer to your question is it depends on the exact story, and that story needs to exist in a rough form for a decision to be reached. Beta readers are valuable here. They'll spot the issues.
answered 1 hour ago
DPT
10.9k22171
All right, so there's some clarity coming out of the discussion with Ash, I think.
Matthew--I'd say that there are definitely rules for reveals. Reveals are the endpoints of misdirects. Reveals are the payoffs to the readers. They are the 'honoring of the contract.'
So. Requirement (boundary): You need to set the contract up front. (1)
How to set the contract?
Let's create an example on the fly. Let's say in a fantasy work that the ruling queen of the land is actually a space alien with no claim to the throne at all. We will reveal this somewhere in the second half of the book. Not the first chapter (not if it's intended as a reveal.) So, timing is another reasonable boundary. (2)
No, the first chapter or three will instead set the readers to see the queen as a legitimate ruler. The more strongly this is implied (use all three of narrative, action, and dialogue to reinforce the idea), the more the reader takes it at face value that the queen's legitimacy does not need to be questioned.
So there's another guideline. It is fair (not cheating) to use narrative, dialog, and action to misdirect. (3)
But. Hints should be dropped into the story. Some indication that aliens exist should be dropped into the story. Some consequence of the queen being illegitimate. Anything about the final reveal that does not follow convention must be set up in some manner before the reveal. That's another rule. (4)
I can't think of anything else offhand. But breaking any of those rules could be grounds to call foul. If the reader doesn't know this fantasy work has space aliens in it, and this is otherwise a typical sword-and-sorcery fantasy, then 'revealing' that the queen is a space alien with no claim to the throne breaks a rule.
Now, why is all of the above wrong?
Because it depends on genre. You can write satire or comedy and get away with breaking rules. As the Stranger in a Strange Land said, humor is a wrongness. If something is done well, even if it's done wrong, we'll enjoy it. If it's wrong in the right way, we will laugh.
Consider the vampire bunny in Python's Quest for the Holy Grail. That fearsome beast came out of the blue, there was nothing in the preceding story that hinted carnivorous bunnies with sharp nasty teeth awaited us. BUT, everything in the story hinted that the entire story would break all the rules.
So, my answer to your question is it depends on the exact story, and that story needs to exist in a rough form for a decision to be reached. Beta readers are valuable here. They'll spot the issues.
answered 1 hour ago
DPT
10.9k22171
edited 1 hour ago
answered 1 hour ago
DPT
10.9k22171
answered 1 hour ago
DPT
10.9k22171
answered 1 hour ago
DPT
10.9k22171
10.9k22171
1
Nasty big pointy teeth. :)
– Galastel
13 mins ago
add a comment |Â
1
Nasty big pointy teeth. :)
– Galastel
13 mins ago
1
1
Nasty big pointy teeth. :)
– Galastel
13 mins ago
Nasty big pointy teeth. :)
– Galastel
13 mins ago
add a comment |Â
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Nope. No objective line. Novels are not life. You tell a good story. It varies by genre. By age. Hell, fairy tales are complete lies and misdirection to the most innocent members of society. How many kids are still waiting for their letters from Hogwarts? my daughter cried when hers didn't come. No rules, except tell a good story.
– DPT
4 hours ago
@DPT I'm not talking about stories having 'misdirected' morals or indeed being fictional at all like you seem to be getting at, I'm talking about how it affects good storytelling. Whether or not a twist feels 'earned', etc.
– Matthew Dave
4 hours ago
Meh. I don't think there's an objective line. I'm working through a craft book now replete with examples of the most ludicrous scenarios in successful fiction--and why they work. I think you can go as far as you want, with misdirection or whatever, if the whole of the story hangs together. I think looking for a boundary is the wrong approach. So, I think 'no.'
– DPT
3 hours ago
@DPT Fair. Want to write an answer with some of those examples? I'm curious to see what they are.
– Matthew Dave
3 hours ago
1
LOLS, no, I don't think so. I miss Mark.
– DPT
3 hours ago