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1.5 years later, how to make sure unprofessional behaviour by former mentor has consequences?
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I was a post doc at a large US university for a year and after took another postdoc position in my home country. My mentor was a tenure track assistant professor. It pretty soon became clear that working together was going to be difficult due to different ideas on how to approach and manage projects. Furthermore, I might eventually not have been the best fit for that position given the somewhat different topic of my PhD work. This ended in a complicated work relationship, in which several requests on my side calling for meetings to discuss ways to improve the situation were ignored.
All the while, in my opinion, I was treated abusively: in group meetings in front of the whole lab, I felt humiliated by unconstructive discussions and was called out for the too little progress I made. In smaller meetings with up to two other lab members, I was shouted at by my mentor and told I didn't deserve my PhD etc. Sometimes, reasonable questions of mine were answered in a passive-aggressive way. Furthermore, the significant amount of time I spent in helping more junior lab members in their (very ambitious) projects was not appreciated.
At the time, I asked a university official in charge of postdoc affairs for advice. I was being told that a formal complaint at HR or the department head would most likely have no direct consequences. I furthermore feared retaliation, mostly because my J1 visa and housing depended on that position. For these reasons, I did not take any further action.
At one point, I decided to quit the lab after the initial agreed-upon one-year duration of my stay. Two and a half months before I wanted to inform my mentor in a one-to-one meeting about my decision, but two e-mail requests for that meeting ("to discuss the fact that my contract ends", which is how I worded it) were ignored. I eventually managed to get hold of my mentor after a group meeting and in the following conversation, after asking me why I think the whole thing didn't work out, they did not acknowledge any wrongdoing or unprofessional behavior on their part, even after I brought up several examples.
Other, more junior lab members (PhD and master students; I was the first and only postdoc) reported similar incidents of unprofessional behavior, but also didn't speak up. My guess is that they, too, were fearing retaliation and didn't want to jeopardize the relationship with their supervisor.
My question now is how to achieve the following (in decreasing order of importance):
- have my former mentor improve their behavior so that they treat future students and employees better
- if that doesn't happen, make sure their propensity for unprofessional behavior is known to the tenure committee
- be sure the other professors in the department know that both sides are to blame for what happened; that is, restore my reputation
- find closure: I'm going to quit academia for industry soon, but feel my academic career could have been more successful and my stay in the great city this lab is located in had it not been for the terrible time at work (although this might possibly be hard to answer and / or worth of its own question)
While I am aware that there are several questions on this site about similar issues, I believe mine is different because I left that lab already one and a half years ago. I fear that, after such a long time, simply contacting, say, the department chair, comes across as bitter and and as wanting to retaliate at the end of my academic career.
Please let me know if I can make this question better by adding / removing details.
postdocs tenure-track interpersonal-issues supervision
asked 2 hours ago
user96212
313
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user96212 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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up vote
6
down vote
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I was a post doc at a large US university for a year and after took another postdoc position in my home country. My mentor was a tenure track assistant professor. It pretty soon became clear that working together was going to be difficult due to different ideas on how to approach and manage projects. Furthermore, I might eventually not have been the best fit for that position given the somewhat different topic of my PhD work. This ended in a complicated work relationship, in which several requests on my side calling for meetings to discuss ways to improve the situation were ignored.
All the while, in my opinion, I was treated abusively: in group meetings in front of the whole lab, I felt humiliated by unconstructive discussions and was called out for the too little progress I made. In smaller meetings with up to two other lab members, I was shouted at by my mentor and told I didn't deserve my PhD etc. Sometimes, reasonable questions of mine were answered in a passive-aggressive way. Furthermore, the significant amount of time I spent in helping more junior lab members in their (very ambitious) projects was not appreciated.
At the time, I asked a university official in charge of postdoc affairs for advice. I was being told that a formal complaint at HR or the department head would most likely have no direct consequences. I furthermore feared retaliation, mostly because my J1 visa and housing depended on that position. For these reasons, I did not take any further action.
At one point, I decided to quit the lab after the initial agreed-upon one-year duration of my stay. Two and a half months before I wanted to inform my mentor in a one-to-one meeting about my decision, but two e-mail requests for that meeting ("to discuss the fact that my contract ends", which is how I worded it) were ignored. I eventually managed to get hold of my mentor after a group meeting and in the following conversation, after asking me why I think the whole thing didn't work out, they did not acknowledge any wrongdoing or unprofessional behavior on their part, even after I brought up several examples.
Other, more junior lab members (PhD and master students; I was the first and only postdoc) reported similar incidents of unprofessional behavior, but also didn't speak up. My guess is that they, too, were fearing retaliation and didn't want to jeopardize the relationship with their supervisor.
My question now is how to achieve the following (in decreasing order of importance):
- have my former mentor improve their behavior so that they treat future students and employees better
- if that doesn't happen, make sure their propensity for unprofessional behavior is known to the tenure committee
- be sure the other professors in the department know that both sides are to blame for what happened; that is, restore my reputation
- find closure: I'm going to quit academia for industry soon, but feel my academic career could have been more successful and my stay in the great city this lab is located in had it not been for the terrible time at work (although this might possibly be hard to answer and / or worth of its own question)
While I am aware that there are several questions on this site about similar issues, I believe mine is different because I left that lab already one and a half years ago. I fear that, after such a long time, simply contacting, say, the department chair, comes across as bitter and and as wanting to retaliate at the end of my academic career.
Please let me know if I can make this question better by adding / removing details.
postdocs tenure-track interpersonal-issues supervision
asked 2 hours ago
user96212
313
New contributor
user96212 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Were you payed for this year? Have you produced any research outputs to account for the salary you received?
– Dmitry Savostyanov
2 hours ago
Yes, I got an average postdoc salary. I worked hard and produced research output, both from my project and from collaborating with my mentor's students. But none of that resulted in a publication, which was, of course, what my mentor was mostly after, given their early career status. I am aware that, in large parts because of the toxic work relationship, I might have underperformed.
– user96212
2 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
favorite
up vote
6
down vote
favorite
I was a post doc at a large US university for a year and after took another postdoc position in my home country. My mentor was a tenure track assistant professor. It pretty soon became clear that working together was going to be difficult due to different ideas on how to approach and manage projects. Furthermore, I might eventually not have been the best fit for that position given the somewhat different topic of my PhD work. This ended in a complicated work relationship, in which several requests on my side calling for meetings to discuss ways to improve the situation were ignored.
All the while, in my opinion, I was treated abusively: in group meetings in front of the whole lab, I felt humiliated by unconstructive discussions and was called out for the too little progress I made. In smaller meetings with up to two other lab members, I was shouted at by my mentor and told I didn't deserve my PhD etc. Sometimes, reasonable questions of mine were answered in a passive-aggressive way. Furthermore, the significant amount of time I spent in helping more junior lab members in their (very ambitious) projects was not appreciated.
At the time, I asked a university official in charge of postdoc affairs for advice. I was being told that a formal complaint at HR or the department head would most likely have no direct consequences. I furthermore feared retaliation, mostly because my J1 visa and housing depended on that position. For these reasons, I did not take any further action.
At one point, I decided to quit the lab after the initial agreed-upon one-year duration of my stay. Two and a half months before I wanted to inform my mentor in a one-to-one meeting about my decision, but two e-mail requests for that meeting ("to discuss the fact that my contract ends", which is how I worded it) were ignored. I eventually managed to get hold of my mentor after a group meeting and in the following conversation, after asking me why I think the whole thing didn't work out, they did not acknowledge any wrongdoing or unprofessional behavior on their part, even after I brought up several examples.
Other, more junior lab members (PhD and master students; I was the first and only postdoc) reported similar incidents of unprofessional behavior, but also didn't speak up. My guess is that they, too, were fearing retaliation and didn't want to jeopardize the relationship with their supervisor.
My question now is how to achieve the following (in decreasing order of importance):
- have my former mentor improve their behavior so that they treat future students and employees better
- if that doesn't happen, make sure their propensity for unprofessional behavior is known to the tenure committee
- be sure the other professors in the department know that both sides are to blame for what happened; that is, restore my reputation
- find closure: I'm going to quit academia for industry soon, but feel my academic career could have been more successful and my stay in the great city this lab is located in had it not been for the terrible time at work (although this might possibly be hard to answer and / or worth of its own question)
While I am aware that there are several questions on this site about similar issues, I believe mine is different because I left that lab already one and a half years ago. I fear that, after such a long time, simply contacting, say, the department chair, comes across as bitter and and as wanting to retaliate at the end of my academic career.
Please let me know if I can make this question better by adding / removing details.
postdocs tenure-track interpersonal-issues supervision
asked 2 hours ago
user96212
313
New contributor
user96212 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
I was a post doc at a large US university for a year and after took another postdoc position in my home country. My mentor was a tenure track assistant professor. It pretty soon became clear that working together was going to be difficult due to different ideas on how to approach and manage projects. Furthermore, I might eventually not have been the best fit for that position given the somewhat different topic of my PhD work. This ended in a complicated work relationship, in which several requests on my side calling for meetings to discuss ways to improve the situation were ignored.
All the while, in my opinion, I was treated abusively: in group meetings in front of the whole lab, I felt humiliated by unconstructive discussions and was called out for the too little progress I made. In smaller meetings with up to two other lab members, I was shouted at by my mentor and told I didn't deserve my PhD etc. Sometimes, reasonable questions of mine were answered in a passive-aggressive way. Furthermore, the significant amount of time I spent in helping more junior lab members in their (very ambitious) projects was not appreciated.
At the time, I asked a university official in charge of postdoc affairs for advice. I was being told that a formal complaint at HR or the department head would most likely have no direct consequences. I furthermore feared retaliation, mostly because my J1 visa and housing depended on that position. For these reasons, I did not take any further action.
At one point, I decided to quit the lab after the initial agreed-upon one-year duration of my stay. Two and a half months before I wanted to inform my mentor in a one-to-one meeting about my decision, but two e-mail requests for that meeting ("to discuss the fact that my contract ends", which is how I worded it) were ignored. I eventually managed to get hold of my mentor after a group meeting and in the following conversation, after asking me why I think the whole thing didn't work out, they did not acknowledge any wrongdoing or unprofessional behavior on their part, even after I brought up several examples.
Other, more junior lab members (PhD and master students; I was the first and only postdoc) reported similar incidents of unprofessional behavior, but also didn't speak up. My guess is that they, too, were fearing retaliation and didn't want to jeopardize the relationship with their supervisor.
My question now is how to achieve the following (in decreasing order of importance):
- have my former mentor improve their behavior so that they treat future students and employees better
- if that doesn't happen, make sure their propensity for unprofessional behavior is known to the tenure committee
- be sure the other professors in the department know that both sides are to blame for what happened; that is, restore my reputation
- find closure: I'm going to quit academia for industry soon, but feel my academic career could have been more successful and my stay in the great city this lab is located in had it not been for the terrible time at work (although this might possibly be hard to answer and / or worth of its own question)
While I am aware that there are several questions on this site about similar issues, I believe mine is different because I left that lab already one and a half years ago. I fear that, after such a long time, simply contacting, say, the department chair, comes across as bitter and and as wanting to retaliate at the end of my academic career.
Please let me know if I can make this question better by adding / removing details.
postdocs tenure-track interpersonal-issues supervision
postdocs tenure-track interpersonal-issues supervision
asked 2 hours ago
user96212
313
New contributor
user96212 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 2 hours ago
user96212
313
New contributor
user96212 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 2 hours ago
user96212
313
New contributor
user96212 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 2 hours ago
user96212
313
asked 2 hours ago
user96212
313
313
New contributor
user96212 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
user96212 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
user96212 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Were you payed for this year? Have you produced any research outputs to account for the salary you received?
– Dmitry Savostyanov
2 hours ago
Yes, I got an average postdoc salary. I worked hard and produced research output, both from my project and from collaborating with my mentor's students. But none of that resulted in a publication, which was, of course, what my mentor was mostly after, given their early career status. I am aware that, in large parts because of the toxic work relationship, I might have underperformed.
– user96212
2 hours ago
add a comment |Â
Were you payed for this year? Have you produced any research outputs to account for the salary you received?
– Dmitry Savostyanov
2 hours ago
Yes, I got an average postdoc salary. I worked hard and produced research output, both from my project and from collaborating with my mentor's students. But none of that resulted in a publication, which was, of course, what my mentor was mostly after, given their early career status. I am aware that, in large parts because of the toxic work relationship, I might have underperformed.
– user96212
2 hours ago
Were you payed for this year? Have you produced any research outputs to account for the salary you received?
– Dmitry Savostyanov
2 hours ago
Were you payed for this year? Have you produced any research outputs to account for the salary you received?
– Dmitry Savostyanov
2 hours ago
Yes, I got an average postdoc salary. I worked hard and produced research output, both from my project and from collaborating with my mentor's students. But none of that resulted in a publication, which was, of course, what my mentor was mostly after, given their early career status. I am aware that, in large parts because of the toxic work relationship, I might have underperformed.
– user96212
2 hours ago
Yes, I got an average postdoc salary. I worked hard and produced research output, both from my project and from collaborating with my mentor's students. But none of that resulted in a publication, which was, of course, what my mentor was mostly after, given their early career status. I am aware that, in large parts because of the toxic work relationship, I might have underperformed.
– user96212
2 hours ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
Academia is built on professionalism and goodwill. In academia people are expected to be experts of highest possible calibre, excellent in both teaching and research, capable of managing funding and people, communicate complex ideas to various audience, mitigate risks, meet and exceed expectations, and remain calm and smile all the time. This is a glamoured picture of academia, produced by the success-centred culture of modern society.
Reality, of course, is somewhat different: academics are people, too. We have strengths in some areas, but we need time to pick up the some other skills. Your PI was good in secure external funding but not so good in managing meetings. You were good in helping other students but not so good in achieving the goals set for you. From what I see, you both under-performed in your roles.
I understand that you are frustrated and want to make sure there are consequences for your former PI for not standing up to your expectations. I assure you, not meeting the publication goals of the first grant is going to result in quite real consequences for your PI, i.e. it will be very difficult for them to secure another grant, which is very likely to result in failing to secure a tenure. Your PI's actions were possibly explained (but not justified) by this pressure.
Some years later, this brief encounter with your former PI will be only a small insignificant episode for you. I am not sure what you want to achieve for yourself by going after your former PI in the way you described. You want them to fail in their career? — arguably, you already did quite well in it.
I would suggest to reflect on this episode and think about your future career. What could've you done better to reduce the unprofessional criticism and tunnel it into a more constructive way? How would you respond if a similar situation happen in industry? What procedures does your future company have to help resolve such issues? What makes a better professional and how you can become one?
I wish you good luck in your future career.
answered 1 hour ago
Dmitry Savostyanov
18.9k64492
Thanks for your honest answer, with which I partly agree. I admit some frustration on my part and agree that we likely both underperformed. I, however, strongly reject your notion that I'm looking to "go after my PI". I want them to have the career they work hard for, but most of all I'd like future employees and student to be treated appropriately by them. As for your last paragraph, I think this is an important point. I agree that there are quite a few lessons to be learned from this experience which will help me in my future career.
– user96212
48 mins ago
@user96212 Not only you want to change your PI's behaviour, but also inform PI's tenure panel and colleagues of his/her lack of professionalism. Tenure panel would not "improve" your PI, it will simply deny them tenure and kick them out of academia, what else do you expect? Seriously, if this is not retaliation, then what is?
– Dmitry Savostyanov
37 mins ago
Please read my bullet points again: if my former PI doesn't improve their behavior, then the tenure committee should know that. If they learned from that episode, then great! I'll be (in fact, am) happy in another job and they will be in theirs. But (repeatedly) treating one's subordinates in such a fashion is, IMHO, not a "weakness", but a disqualification for this (and any other) profession. I realize, though, that evaluating whether they improved their employee management skills is not my responsibility, probably rendering this specific bullet point moot.
– user96212
23 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
First, there is probably little that you can do to change anything. It has been too long. People won't remember, and as you say, it will sound like sour grapes.
Second, find a way to heal yourself and put the experience in the past. Seething anger, even when justified, will probably hurt you more than resolve the past abuse. Make sure that you go into future positions with open eyes, after exploring the environment before you dive in.
Third, while this doesn't excuse the behavior, your mentor was then very likely under a huge amount of stress and had no experience with the situation he was in. A tenure-track assistant professor is under a lot of pressure to produce for himself. That pressure alone, combined with inexperience might explain (not excuse) blow ups and inappropriate behavior. It may be that his own fear of failure was such that any provocation, no matter how slight, caused an overreaction. Perhaps he knows more now and is in a different place in which abuse of colleagues isn't his first response anymore. You can hope that is the case, but you can't affect it much. There are jerks (and worse) in academia.
There is no excuse for the situation you faced, of course. But if the institution isn't willing to address it, there is little you can do effectively and without blow-back on yourself.
answered 2 hours ago
Buffy
16.6k55191
Thank you for your answer. It is in line with my suspicion that there's little I can do. I agree that my mentor was (is) under a lot of pressure. Their complete lack of self-reflection in the exit conversation and other information I have gotten since make me doubt that they know better now. As for your last paragraph, I am not sure the institution knows, as also the official I talked to did, on my request, not take any action. It is well possible, though, that word about these and similar incidents spread in the department.
– user96212
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
Academia is built on professionalism and goodwill. In academia people are expected to be experts of highest possible calibre, excellent in both teaching and research, capable of managing funding and people, communicate complex ideas to various audience, mitigate risks, meet and exceed expectations, and remain calm and smile all the time. This is a glamoured picture of academia, produced by the success-centred culture of modern society.
Reality, of course, is somewhat different: academics are people, too. We have strengths in some areas, but we need time to pick up the some other skills. Your PI was good in secure external funding but not so good in managing meetings. You were good in helping other students but not so good in achieving the goals set for you. From what I see, you both under-performed in your roles.
I understand that you are frustrated and want to make sure there are consequences for your former PI for not standing up to your expectations. I assure you, not meeting the publication goals of the first grant is going to result in quite real consequences for your PI, i.e. it will be very difficult for them to secure another grant, which is very likely to result in failing to secure a tenure. Your PI's actions were possibly explained (but not justified) by this pressure.
Some years later, this brief encounter with your former PI will be only a small insignificant episode for you. I am not sure what you want to achieve for yourself by going after your former PI in the way you described. You want them to fail in their career? — arguably, you already did quite well in it.
I would suggest to reflect on this episode and think about your future career. What could've you done better to reduce the unprofessional criticism and tunnel it into a more constructive way? How would you respond if a similar situation happen in industry? What procedures does your future company have to help resolve such issues? What makes a better professional and how you can become one?
I wish you good luck in your future career.
answered 1 hour ago
Dmitry Savostyanov
18.9k64492
Thanks for your honest answer, with which I partly agree. I admit some frustration on my part and agree that we likely both underperformed. I, however, strongly reject your notion that I'm looking to "go after my PI". I want them to have the career they work hard for, but most of all I'd like future employees and student to be treated appropriately by them. As for your last paragraph, I think this is an important point. I agree that there are quite a few lessons to be learned from this experience which will help me in my future career.
– user96212
48 mins ago
@user96212 Not only you want to change your PI's behaviour, but also inform PI's tenure panel and colleagues of his/her lack of professionalism. Tenure panel would not "improve" your PI, it will simply deny them tenure and kick them out of academia, what else do you expect? Seriously, if this is not retaliation, then what is?
– Dmitry Savostyanov
37 mins ago
Please read my bullet points again: if my former PI doesn't improve their behavior, then the tenure committee should know that. If they learned from that episode, then great! I'll be (in fact, am) happy in another job and they will be in theirs. But (repeatedly) treating one's subordinates in such a fashion is, IMHO, not a "weakness", but a disqualification for this (and any other) profession. I realize, though, that evaluating whether they improved their employee management skills is not my responsibility, probably rendering this specific bullet point moot.
– user96212
23 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
Academia is built on professionalism and goodwill. In academia people are expected to be experts of highest possible calibre, excellent in both teaching and research, capable of managing funding and people, communicate complex ideas to various audience, mitigate risks, meet and exceed expectations, and remain calm and smile all the time. This is a glamoured picture of academia, produced by the success-centred culture of modern society.
Reality, of course, is somewhat different: academics are people, too. We have strengths in some areas, but we need time to pick up the some other skills. Your PI was good in secure external funding but not so good in managing meetings. You were good in helping other students but not so good in achieving the goals set for you. From what I see, you both under-performed in your roles.
I understand that you are frustrated and want to make sure there are consequences for your former PI for not standing up to your expectations. I assure you, not meeting the publication goals of the first grant is going to result in quite real consequences for your PI, i.e. it will be very difficult for them to secure another grant, which is very likely to result in failing to secure a tenure. Your PI's actions were possibly explained (but not justified) by this pressure.
Some years later, this brief encounter with your former PI will be only a small insignificant episode for you. I am not sure what you want to achieve for yourself by going after your former PI in the way you described. You want them to fail in their career? — arguably, you already did quite well in it.
I would suggest to reflect on this episode and think about your future career. What could've you done better to reduce the unprofessional criticism and tunnel it into a more constructive way? How would you respond if a similar situation happen in industry? What procedures does your future company have to help resolve such issues? What makes a better professional and how you can become one?
I wish you good luck in your future career.
answered 1 hour ago
Dmitry Savostyanov
18.9k64492
Thanks for your honest answer, with which I partly agree. I admit some frustration on my part and agree that we likely both underperformed. I, however, strongly reject your notion that I'm looking to "go after my PI". I want them to have the career they work hard for, but most of all I'd like future employees and student to be treated appropriately by them. As for your last paragraph, I think this is an important point. I agree that there are quite a few lessons to be learned from this experience which will help me in my future career.
– user96212
48 mins ago
@user96212 Not only you want to change your PI's behaviour, but also inform PI's tenure panel and colleagues of his/her lack of professionalism. Tenure panel would not "improve" your PI, it will simply deny them tenure and kick them out of academia, what else do you expect? Seriously, if this is not retaliation, then what is?
– Dmitry Savostyanov
37 mins ago
Please read my bullet points again: if my former PI doesn't improve their behavior, then the tenure committee should know that. If they learned from that episode, then great! I'll be (in fact, am) happy in another job and they will be in theirs. But (repeatedly) treating one's subordinates in such a fashion is, IMHO, not a "weakness", but a disqualification for this (and any other) profession. I realize, though, that evaluating whether they improved their employee management skills is not my responsibility, probably rendering this specific bullet point moot.
– user96212
23 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
Academia is built on professionalism and goodwill. In academia people are expected to be experts of highest possible calibre, excellent in both teaching and research, capable of managing funding and people, communicate complex ideas to various audience, mitigate risks, meet and exceed expectations, and remain calm and smile all the time. This is a glamoured picture of academia, produced by the success-centred culture of modern society.
Reality, of course, is somewhat different: academics are people, too. We have strengths in some areas, but we need time to pick up the some other skills. Your PI was good in secure external funding but not so good in managing meetings. You were good in helping other students but not so good in achieving the goals set for you. From what I see, you both under-performed in your roles.
I understand that you are frustrated and want to make sure there are consequences for your former PI for not standing up to your expectations. I assure you, not meeting the publication goals of the first grant is going to result in quite real consequences for your PI, i.e. it will be very difficult for them to secure another grant, which is very likely to result in failing to secure a tenure. Your PI's actions were possibly explained (but not justified) by this pressure.
Some years later, this brief encounter with your former PI will be only a small insignificant episode for you. I am not sure what you want to achieve for yourself by going after your former PI in the way you described. You want them to fail in their career? — arguably, you already did quite well in it.
I would suggest to reflect on this episode and think about your future career. What could've you done better to reduce the unprofessional criticism and tunnel it into a more constructive way? How would you respond if a similar situation happen in industry? What procedures does your future company have to help resolve such issues? What makes a better professional and how you can become one?
I wish you good luck in your future career.
answered 1 hour ago
Dmitry Savostyanov
18.9k64492
Academia is built on professionalism and goodwill. In academia people are expected to be experts of highest possible calibre, excellent in both teaching and research, capable of managing funding and people, communicate complex ideas to various audience, mitigate risks, meet and exceed expectations, and remain calm and smile all the time. This is a glamoured picture of academia, produced by the success-centred culture of modern society.
Reality, of course, is somewhat different: academics are people, too. We have strengths in some areas, but we need time to pick up the some other skills. Your PI was good in secure external funding but not so good in managing meetings. You were good in helping other students but not so good in achieving the goals set for you. From what I see, you both under-performed in your roles.
I understand that you are frustrated and want to make sure there are consequences for your former PI for not standing up to your expectations. I assure you, not meeting the publication goals of the first grant is going to result in quite real consequences for your PI, i.e. it will be very difficult for them to secure another grant, which is very likely to result in failing to secure a tenure. Your PI's actions were possibly explained (but not justified) by this pressure.
Some years later, this brief encounter with your former PI will be only a small insignificant episode for you. I am not sure what you want to achieve for yourself by going after your former PI in the way you described. You want them to fail in their career? — arguably, you already did quite well in it.
I would suggest to reflect on this episode and think about your future career. What could've you done better to reduce the unprofessional criticism and tunnel it into a more constructive way? How would you respond if a similar situation happen in industry? What procedures does your future company have to help resolve such issues? What makes a better professional and how you can become one?
I wish you good luck in your future career.
answered 1 hour ago
Dmitry Savostyanov
18.9k64492
edited 57 mins ago
answered 1 hour ago
Dmitry Savostyanov
18.9k64492
answered 1 hour ago
Dmitry Savostyanov
18.9k64492
answered 1 hour ago
Dmitry Savostyanov
18.9k64492
18.9k64492
Thanks for your honest answer, with which I partly agree. I admit some frustration on my part and agree that we likely both underperformed. I, however, strongly reject your notion that I'm looking to "go after my PI". I want them to have the career they work hard for, but most of all I'd like future employees and student to be treated appropriately by them. As for your last paragraph, I think this is an important point. I agree that there are quite a few lessons to be learned from this experience which will help me in my future career.
– user96212
48 mins ago
@user96212 Not only you want to change your PI's behaviour, but also inform PI's tenure panel and colleagues of his/her lack of professionalism. Tenure panel would not "improve" your PI, it will simply deny them tenure and kick them out of academia, what else do you expect? Seriously, if this is not retaliation, then what is?
– Dmitry Savostyanov
37 mins ago
Please read my bullet points again: if my former PI doesn't improve their behavior, then the tenure committee should know that. If they learned from that episode, then great! I'll be (in fact, am) happy in another job and they will be in theirs. But (repeatedly) treating one's subordinates in such a fashion is, IMHO, not a "weakness", but a disqualification for this (and any other) profession. I realize, though, that evaluating whether they improved their employee management skills is not my responsibility, probably rendering this specific bullet point moot.
– user96212
23 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Thanks for your honest answer, with which I partly agree. I admit some frustration on my part and agree that we likely both underperformed. I, however, strongly reject your notion that I'm looking to "go after my PI". I want them to have the career they work hard for, but most of all I'd like future employees and student to be treated appropriately by them. As for your last paragraph, I think this is an important point. I agree that there are quite a few lessons to be learned from this experience which will help me in my future career.
– user96212
48 mins ago
@user96212 Not only you want to change your PI's behaviour, but also inform PI's tenure panel and colleagues of his/her lack of professionalism. Tenure panel would not "improve" your PI, it will simply deny them tenure and kick them out of academia, what else do you expect? Seriously, if this is not retaliation, then what is?
– Dmitry Savostyanov
37 mins ago
Please read my bullet points again: if my former PI doesn't improve their behavior, then the tenure committee should know that. If they learned from that episode, then great! I'll be (in fact, am) happy in another job and they will be in theirs. But (repeatedly) treating one's subordinates in such a fashion is, IMHO, not a "weakness", but a disqualification for this (and any other) profession. I realize, though, that evaluating whether they improved their employee management skills is not my responsibility, probably rendering this specific bullet point moot.
– user96212
23 mins ago
Thanks for your honest answer, with which I partly agree. I admit some frustration on my part and agree that we likely both underperformed. I, however, strongly reject your notion that I'm looking to "go after my PI". I want them to have the career they work hard for, but most of all I'd like future employees and student to be treated appropriately by them. As for your last paragraph, I think this is an important point. I agree that there are quite a few lessons to be learned from this experience which will help me in my future career.
– user96212
48 mins ago
Thanks for your honest answer, with which I partly agree. I admit some frustration on my part and agree that we likely both underperformed. I, however, strongly reject your notion that I'm looking to "go after my PI". I want them to have the career they work hard for, but most of all I'd like future employees and student to be treated appropriately by them. As for your last paragraph, I think this is an important point. I agree that there are quite a few lessons to be learned from this experience which will help me in my future career.
– user96212
48 mins ago
@user96212 Not only you want to change your PI's behaviour, but also inform PI's tenure panel and colleagues of his/her lack of professionalism. Tenure panel would not "improve" your PI, it will simply deny them tenure and kick them out of academia, what else do you expect? Seriously, if this is not retaliation, then what is?
– Dmitry Savostyanov
37 mins ago
@user96212 Not only you want to change your PI's behaviour, but also inform PI's tenure panel and colleagues of his/her lack of professionalism. Tenure panel would not "improve" your PI, it will simply deny them tenure and kick them out of academia, what else do you expect? Seriously, if this is not retaliation, then what is?
– Dmitry Savostyanov
37 mins ago
Please read my bullet points again: if my former PI doesn't improve their behavior, then the tenure committee should know that. If they learned from that episode, then great! I'll be (in fact, am) happy in another job and they will be in theirs. But (repeatedly) treating one's subordinates in such a fashion is, IMHO, not a "weakness", but a disqualification for this (and any other) profession. I realize, though, that evaluating whether they improved their employee management skills is not my responsibility, probably rendering this specific bullet point moot.
– user96212
23 mins ago
Please read my bullet points again: if my former PI doesn't improve their behavior, then the tenure committee should know that. If they learned from that episode, then great! I'll be (in fact, am) happy in another job and they will be in theirs. But (repeatedly) treating one's subordinates in such a fashion is, IMHO, not a "weakness", but a disqualification for this (and any other) profession. I realize, though, that evaluating whether they improved their employee management skills is not my responsibility, probably rendering this specific bullet point moot.
– user96212
23 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
First, there is probably little that you can do to change anything. It has been too long. People won't remember, and as you say, it will sound like sour grapes.
Second, find a way to heal yourself and put the experience in the past. Seething anger, even when justified, will probably hurt you more than resolve the past abuse. Make sure that you go into future positions with open eyes, after exploring the environment before you dive in.
Third, while this doesn't excuse the behavior, your mentor was then very likely under a huge amount of stress and had no experience with the situation he was in. A tenure-track assistant professor is under a lot of pressure to produce for himself. That pressure alone, combined with inexperience might explain (not excuse) blow ups and inappropriate behavior. It may be that his own fear of failure was such that any provocation, no matter how slight, caused an overreaction. Perhaps he knows more now and is in a different place in which abuse of colleagues isn't his first response anymore. You can hope that is the case, but you can't affect it much. There are jerks (and worse) in academia.
There is no excuse for the situation you faced, of course. But if the institution isn't willing to address it, there is little you can do effectively and without blow-back on yourself.
answered 2 hours ago
Buffy
16.6k55191
Thank you for your answer. It is in line with my suspicion that there's little I can do. I agree that my mentor was (is) under a lot of pressure. Their complete lack of self-reflection in the exit conversation and other information I have gotten since make me doubt that they know better now. As for your last paragraph, I am not sure the institution knows, as also the official I talked to did, on my request, not take any action. It is well possible, though, that word about these and similar incidents spread in the department.
– user96212
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
First, there is probably little that you can do to change anything. It has been too long. People won't remember, and as you say, it will sound like sour grapes.
Second, find a way to heal yourself and put the experience in the past. Seething anger, even when justified, will probably hurt you more than resolve the past abuse. Make sure that you go into future positions with open eyes, after exploring the environment before you dive in.
Third, while this doesn't excuse the behavior, your mentor was then very likely under a huge amount of stress and had no experience with the situation he was in. A tenure-track assistant professor is under a lot of pressure to produce for himself. That pressure alone, combined with inexperience might explain (not excuse) blow ups and inappropriate behavior. It may be that his own fear of failure was such that any provocation, no matter how slight, caused an overreaction. Perhaps he knows more now and is in a different place in which abuse of colleagues isn't his first response anymore. You can hope that is the case, but you can't affect it much. There are jerks (and worse) in academia.
There is no excuse for the situation you faced, of course. But if the institution isn't willing to address it, there is little you can do effectively and without blow-back on yourself.
answered 2 hours ago
Buffy
16.6k55191
Thank you for your answer. It is in line with my suspicion that there's little I can do. I agree that my mentor was (is) under a lot of pressure. Their complete lack of self-reflection in the exit conversation and other information I have gotten since make me doubt that they know better now. As for your last paragraph, I am not sure the institution knows, as also the official I talked to did, on my request, not take any action. It is well possible, though, that word about these and similar incidents spread in the department.
– user96212
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
First, there is probably little that you can do to change anything. It has been too long. People won't remember, and as you say, it will sound like sour grapes.
Second, find a way to heal yourself and put the experience in the past. Seething anger, even when justified, will probably hurt you more than resolve the past abuse. Make sure that you go into future positions with open eyes, after exploring the environment before you dive in.
Third, while this doesn't excuse the behavior, your mentor was then very likely under a huge amount of stress and had no experience with the situation he was in. A tenure-track assistant professor is under a lot of pressure to produce for himself. That pressure alone, combined with inexperience might explain (not excuse) blow ups and inappropriate behavior. It may be that his own fear of failure was such that any provocation, no matter how slight, caused an overreaction. Perhaps he knows more now and is in a different place in which abuse of colleagues isn't his first response anymore. You can hope that is the case, but you can't affect it much. There are jerks (and worse) in academia.
There is no excuse for the situation you faced, of course. But if the institution isn't willing to address it, there is little you can do effectively and without blow-back on yourself.
answered 2 hours ago
Buffy
16.6k55191
First, there is probably little that you can do to change anything. It has been too long. People won't remember, and as you say, it will sound like sour grapes.
Second, find a way to heal yourself and put the experience in the past. Seething anger, even when justified, will probably hurt you more than resolve the past abuse. Make sure that you go into future positions with open eyes, after exploring the environment before you dive in.
Third, while this doesn't excuse the behavior, your mentor was then very likely under a huge amount of stress and had no experience with the situation he was in. A tenure-track assistant professor is under a lot of pressure to produce for himself. That pressure alone, combined with inexperience might explain (not excuse) blow ups and inappropriate behavior. It may be that his own fear of failure was such that any provocation, no matter how slight, caused an overreaction. Perhaps he knows more now and is in a different place in which abuse of colleagues isn't his first response anymore. You can hope that is the case, but you can't affect it much. There are jerks (and worse) in academia.
There is no excuse for the situation you faced, of course. But if the institution isn't willing to address it, there is little you can do effectively and without blow-back on yourself.
answered 2 hours ago
Buffy
16.6k55191
answered 2 hours ago
Buffy
16.6k55191
answered 2 hours ago
Buffy
16.6k55191
answered 2 hours ago
Buffy
16.6k55191
16.6k55191
Thank you for your answer. It is in line with my suspicion that there's little I can do. I agree that my mentor was (is) under a lot of pressure. Their complete lack of self-reflection in the exit conversation and other information I have gotten since make me doubt that they know better now. As for your last paragraph, I am not sure the institution knows, as also the official I talked to did, on my request, not take any action. It is well possible, though, that word about these and similar incidents spread in the department.
– user96212
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
Thank you for your answer. It is in line with my suspicion that there's little I can do. I agree that my mentor was (is) under a lot of pressure. Their complete lack of self-reflection in the exit conversation and other information I have gotten since make me doubt that they know better now. As for your last paragraph, I am not sure the institution knows, as also the official I talked to did, on my request, not take any action. It is well possible, though, that word about these and similar incidents spread in the department.
– user96212
1 hour ago
Thank you for your answer. It is in line with my suspicion that there's little I can do. I agree that my mentor was (is) under a lot of pressure. Their complete lack of self-reflection in the exit conversation and other information I have gotten since make me doubt that they know better now. As for your last paragraph, I am not sure the institution knows, as also the official I talked to did, on my request, not take any action. It is well possible, though, that word about these and similar incidents spread in the department.
– user96212
1 hour ago
Thank you for your answer. It is in line with my suspicion that there's little I can do. I agree that my mentor was (is) under a lot of pressure. Their complete lack of self-reflection in the exit conversation and other information I have gotten since make me doubt that they know better now. As for your last paragraph, I am not sure the institution knows, as also the official I talked to did, on my request, not take any action. It is well possible, though, that word about these and similar incidents spread in the department.
– user96212
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
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Were you payed for this year? Have you produced any research outputs to account for the salary you received?
– Dmitry Savostyanov
2 hours ago
Yes, I got an average postdoc salary. I worked hard and produced research output, both from my project and from collaborating with my mentor's students. But none of that resulted in a publication, which was, of course, what my mentor was mostly after, given their early career status. I am aware that, in large parts because of the toxic work relationship, I might have underperformed.
– user96212
2 hours ago