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2 % of 'the rich' pay 50 % of taxes in Germany
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A statement made by a user under a news article claims that 50 % of all taxes are paid by 'rich people' being defined as making more than 70.000 €/a.
(...) 2% der "Reichen" zahlen 50% der Steuern in Deutschland. (...)
This freely translates into:
2% of "the rich" pay 50% of the taxes in Germany.
Can this be backed up?
I could not find any reliable sources but I'm also not very good with statistics and stuff :)
germany taxes wealth
asked 6 hours ago
OddDev
783247
 |Â
show 7 more comments
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
A statement made by a user under a news article claims that 50 % of all taxes are paid by 'rich people' being defined as making more than 70.000 €/a.
(...) 2% der "Reichen" zahlen 50% der Steuern in Deutschland. (...)
This freely translates into:
2% of "the rich" pay 50% of the taxes in Germany.
Can this be backed up?
I could not find any reliable sources but I'm also not very good with statistics and stuff :)
germany taxes wealth
asked 6 hours ago
OddDev
783247
1
It's not a notable claim if some random guy posted it in a forum. It's also not well defined. The vast majority of taxed is paid by companies so are the 2% the owners of these companies?
– FooBar
6 hours ago
1
"The rich people", "Of all taxes..." -- Both terms are so woefully weak that it will be nearly impossible to answer ("correctly"). Who is "rich people"? By income? By wealth? What is "wealth", exactly? What is "all taxes"? Income tax, property tax, VAT is more or less a given, but the latter will be hard to get exact numbers for. How much of business tax or capital tax payed by companies controlled by individuals is calculated as "being payed" by said individual? What about inheritance tax, how do you figure that?
– DevSolar
6 hours ago
1
@DevSolar Oh, true. Totally missed that. Can be 2 % of the population or only 2 % of the people having more than 70.000 €/a. Or as you stated something completely different. You are right.
– OddDev
6 hours ago
1
Ah, see? The reading that he's actually talking about 2% of the rich has escaped me. But anyway, I wouldn't approach his reasoning from the numbers perspective at all, because that would just lend credibility to the larger sociological statement being made (which is bogus).
– DevSolar
5 hours ago
3
@DevSolar Then I think the claim itself is too sloppy and confused to be a good claim. I've pointed out a similar (much clearer) claim from the UK. And I disagree that it is worth analysing such claims as they are a big issue in setting tax policy the details of which are rarely understood by the public.
– matt_black
4 hours ago
 |Â
show 7 more comments
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
A statement made by a user under a news article claims that 50 % of all taxes are paid by 'rich people' being defined as making more than 70.000 €/a.
(...) 2% der "Reichen" zahlen 50% der Steuern in Deutschland. (...)
This freely translates into:
2% of "the rich" pay 50% of the taxes in Germany.
Can this be backed up?
I could not find any reliable sources but I'm also not very good with statistics and stuff :)
germany taxes wealth
asked 6 hours ago
OddDev
783247
A statement made by a user under a news article claims that 50 % of all taxes are paid by 'rich people' being defined as making more than 70.000 €/a.
(...) 2% der "Reichen" zahlen 50% der Steuern in Deutschland. (...)
This freely translates into:
2% of "the rich" pay 50% of the taxes in Germany.
Can this be backed up?
I could not find any reliable sources but I'm also not very good with statistics and stuff :)
germany taxes wealth
germany taxes wealth
asked 6 hours ago
OddDev
783247
asked 6 hours ago
OddDev
783247
asked 6 hours ago
OddDev
783247
asked 6 hours ago
OddDev
783247
asked 6 hours ago
OddDev
783247
783247
1
It's not a notable claim if some random guy posted it in a forum. It's also not well defined. The vast majority of taxed is paid by companies so are the 2% the owners of these companies?
– FooBar
6 hours ago
1
"The rich people", "Of all taxes..." -- Both terms are so woefully weak that it will be nearly impossible to answer ("correctly"). Who is "rich people"? By income? By wealth? What is "wealth", exactly? What is "all taxes"? Income tax, property tax, VAT is more or less a given, but the latter will be hard to get exact numbers for. How much of business tax or capital tax payed by companies controlled by individuals is calculated as "being payed" by said individual? What about inheritance tax, how do you figure that?
– DevSolar
6 hours ago
1
@DevSolar Oh, true. Totally missed that. Can be 2 % of the population or only 2 % of the people having more than 70.000 €/a. Or as you stated something completely different. You are right.
– OddDev
6 hours ago
1
Ah, see? The reading that he's actually talking about 2% of the rich has escaped me. But anyway, I wouldn't approach his reasoning from the numbers perspective at all, because that would just lend credibility to the larger sociological statement being made (which is bogus).
– DevSolar
5 hours ago
3
@DevSolar Then I think the claim itself is too sloppy and confused to be a good claim. I've pointed out a similar (much clearer) claim from the UK. And I disagree that it is worth analysing such claims as they are a big issue in setting tax policy the details of which are rarely understood by the public.
– matt_black
4 hours ago
 |Â
show 7 more comments
1
It's not a notable claim if some random guy posted it in a forum. It's also not well defined. The vast majority of taxed is paid by companies so are the 2% the owners of these companies?
– FooBar
6 hours ago
1
"The rich people", "Of all taxes..." -- Both terms are so woefully weak that it will be nearly impossible to answer ("correctly"). Who is "rich people"? By income? By wealth? What is "wealth", exactly? What is "all taxes"? Income tax, property tax, VAT is more or less a given, but the latter will be hard to get exact numbers for. How much of business tax or capital tax payed by companies controlled by individuals is calculated as "being payed" by said individual? What about inheritance tax, how do you figure that?
– DevSolar
6 hours ago
1
@DevSolar Oh, true. Totally missed that. Can be 2 % of the population or only 2 % of the people having more than 70.000 €/a. Or as you stated something completely different. You are right.
– OddDev
6 hours ago
1
Ah, see? The reading that he's actually talking about 2% of the rich has escaped me. But anyway, I wouldn't approach his reasoning from the numbers perspective at all, because that would just lend credibility to the larger sociological statement being made (which is bogus).
– DevSolar
5 hours ago
3
@DevSolar Then I think the claim itself is too sloppy and confused to be a good claim. I've pointed out a similar (much clearer) claim from the UK. And I disagree that it is worth analysing such claims as they are a big issue in setting tax policy the details of which are rarely understood by the public.
– matt_black
4 hours ago
1
1
It's not a notable claim if some random guy posted it in a forum. It's also not well defined. The vast majority of taxed is paid by companies so are the 2% the owners of these companies?
– FooBar
6 hours ago
It's not a notable claim if some random guy posted it in a forum. It's also not well defined. The vast majority of taxed is paid by companies so are the 2% the owners of these companies?
– FooBar
6 hours ago
1
1
"The rich people", "Of all taxes..." -- Both terms are so woefully weak that it will be nearly impossible to answer ("correctly"). Who is "rich people"? By income? By wealth? What is "wealth", exactly? What is "all taxes"? Income tax, property tax, VAT is more or less a given, but the latter will be hard to get exact numbers for. How much of business tax or capital tax payed by companies controlled by individuals is calculated as "being payed" by said individual? What about inheritance tax, how do you figure that?
– DevSolar
6 hours ago
"The rich people", "Of all taxes..." -- Both terms are so woefully weak that it will be nearly impossible to answer ("correctly"). Who is "rich people"? By income? By wealth? What is "wealth", exactly? What is "all taxes"? Income tax, property tax, VAT is more or less a given, but the latter will be hard to get exact numbers for. How much of business tax or capital tax payed by companies controlled by individuals is calculated as "being payed" by said individual? What about inheritance tax, how do you figure that?
– DevSolar
6 hours ago
1
1
@DevSolar Oh, true. Totally missed that. Can be 2 % of the population or only 2 % of the people having more than 70.000 €/a. Or as you stated something completely different. You are right.
– OddDev
6 hours ago
@DevSolar Oh, true. Totally missed that. Can be 2 % of the population or only 2 % of the people having more than 70.000 €/a. Or as you stated something completely different. You are right.
– OddDev
6 hours ago
1
1
Ah, see? The reading that he's actually talking about 2% of the rich has escaped me. But anyway, I wouldn't approach his reasoning from the numbers perspective at all, because that would just lend credibility to the larger sociological statement being made (which is bogus).
– DevSolar
5 hours ago
Ah, see? The reading that he's actually talking about 2% of the rich has escaped me. But anyway, I wouldn't approach his reasoning from the numbers perspective at all, because that would just lend credibility to the larger sociological statement being made (which is bogus).
– DevSolar
5 hours ago
3
3
@DevSolar Then I think the claim itself is too sloppy and confused to be a good claim. I've pointed out a similar (much clearer) claim from the UK. And I disagree that it is worth analysing such claims as they are a big issue in setting tax policy the details of which are rarely understood by the public.
– matt_black
4 hours ago
@DevSolar Then I think the claim itself is too sloppy and confused to be a good claim. I've pointed out a similar (much clearer) claim from the UK. And I disagree that it is worth analysing such claims as they are a big issue in setting tax policy the details of which are rarely understood by the public.
– matt_black
4 hours ago
 |Â
show 7 more comments
2 Answers
2
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oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
accepted
The top 20% of income earners pay 50% of Einkommensteuer&Lohnsteuer (income tax), which in turn accounts for 33% of total tax income for the state. (Lohn and Einkommen are separate here, because Lohn references income from paid employ, while Einkommen can be any monies you get apart from paid employ)
People with more than 37.500€ per year paid 80% of the income tax, while people with less than 23.00€ paid 4%.
To frame this another way: the poorest 10% of households paid 20% of their income as tax (any tax) while the richest 10% of households paid 8% of their income as tax (any tax)
So no, not even close.
Sources:
A 2007 Frankfurter Allgemeine article
German Wikipedia's Steueraufkommen page
*: https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/wirtschaft/millionaerssteuer-so-viel-steuern-zahlen-menschen-mit-hohem-einkommen-27875330
*: http://www.taz.de/!5176731/
answered 6 hours ago
bukwyrm
1745
3
What about other taxes?
– Communisty
5 hours ago
This graph is a bit weird. "Lohnsteuer" is generally the primary income tax. "Einkommensteuer" is the combination of all income type taxes (I.e. Lohnsteuer, taxes from investment profits etc.). I suspect the graph added all other taxes, which are part of the income tax into the "Einkommensteuer" field, except for its primary element. So to be correct, you should add Lohnsteuer and Einkommensteuer up, as 1/3 of the total tax income is what the income tax really is worth.
– Dulkan
2 hours ago
@Dulkan: Thanks, corrected!
– bukwyrm
45 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
As written (2 % of 'the rich' pay 50 % of taxes in Germany) this is not true no matter how you spin it. The top 10% of income earners do pay a substantial amount in taxes, true. But that is by far not the whole story to it. Their share in carrying the state finances as a whoöle is much smaller than this number implies and the actual burden put on their shoulders is even quite low.
The statistics just don't give that result from the claim. This is right-wing spin, often repeated. But usually this is claimed with a bit more precision. Like "10 % of 'the rich' pay 50 % of the overall income taxes in Germany" or the like. But even that is only marginally better and almost never backed up by anything. To put a comment from under the question on its feet: But the claim is indeed about tax policy, it is about "hey, we rich pay all the taxes, so shut up about inequality", "and lower the taxes already"… –– Who carries the weight, who can carry how much? And the details of these statics can be interpreted in more than one way.
Another spin on the claim would be the "top 50 percent pay 95 percent of the tax" like Bild newspaper did some time ago. Or like the FAZ did with "10 Prozent zahlen 50 Prozent".
Even if that claim is really just about the income tax, without making it explicit, is that actually true, too? Then the answer is quite clearly: no. But what percentage do the rich pay?
Unfortunately, this cannot be calculated in a simple manner and there are no official statistics to be read with a clear answer. Fortunately we have the Rheinisch-Westfälisches Institut für Wirtschaftsforschung e.V. (RWI). The researchers have looked at an extensive study from the year 2011.
The top 50 percent actually pay in income tax 95 percent of the total.
But that's not the only tax. For the main indirect taxes – VAT, car tax and energy tax – the proportion of the top 50% of households drops to 69 percent.
Now it goes on. The total tax revenue from wage and income tax amounted to 186 billion euros. The Revenue from VAT (excluding import VAT) as well as value added tax and car tax amounts to 189 billion euros. Makes a total of 375 billion euros.
That means then: The top 50 percent pay a total of 81 percent of the tax revenue.
The calculation: 95 percent of 186 billion is 176 billion and 69 percent of 189 billion results in 130 billion. That makes up 306 billion euros. And that's 81 percent of 375 billion euros. (Strictly speaking, an aggregation is problematic for reasons of data material but it is an approximation here). Social security contributions are not even included in this calculation, but the picture is not likely to change significantly.
One important thing to consider: Is that really much or little? It sounds like much or a very great amount. But: it depends on what relation the tax burden is to income. If – an extreme case – the poor do not make money, they cannot contribute to the financing of the State either. The top 50 percent united now around 80 percent of the total income. So one could say that 80 percent of the income also bear 80 percent of the tax burden. Somehow it doesn't sound like the rich fleeced.
On the contary. The lowest economic part cannot contribute much from the start. The highest earners profit from flat taxes like VAT and have many possibilities for legal tax evasion. Plus illegal tax evasion. If the topic is taxes, social security financing has to be included, even if it is not legally defined as a tax, it is one in effect. Then the picture changes drastically. In terms of load and in terms of absolute value the middle part contributes much more than the claims about rich people paying almost all implies.
For indirect taxes, this is quite impressively illustrated:
"The rich" can or could pay much more, as they are much less effected from such a burden. The changes in laws in the last 25 years were almost exclusively to lower the burden on the rich.
Source: Boris Beimann, Rainer Kambeck, Tanja Kasten and Lars-H. Siemers: "Wer trägt den Staat?
Eine Analyse von Steuer- und Abgabenlasten", RWI Position #43 vom 1. April 2011.
answered 31 mins ago
LangLangC
11.6k45569
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
accepted
The top 20% of income earners pay 50% of Einkommensteuer&Lohnsteuer (income tax), which in turn accounts for 33% of total tax income for the state. (Lohn and Einkommen are separate here, because Lohn references income from paid employ, while Einkommen can be any monies you get apart from paid employ)
People with more than 37.500€ per year paid 80% of the income tax, while people with less than 23.00€ paid 4%.
To frame this another way: the poorest 10% of households paid 20% of their income as tax (any tax) while the richest 10% of households paid 8% of their income as tax (any tax)
So no, not even close.
Sources:
A 2007 Frankfurter Allgemeine article
German Wikipedia's Steueraufkommen page
*: https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/wirtschaft/millionaerssteuer-so-viel-steuern-zahlen-menschen-mit-hohem-einkommen-27875330
*: http://www.taz.de/!5176731/
answered 6 hours ago
bukwyrm
1745
3
What about other taxes?
– Communisty
5 hours ago
This graph is a bit weird. "Lohnsteuer" is generally the primary income tax. "Einkommensteuer" is the combination of all income type taxes (I.e. Lohnsteuer, taxes from investment profits etc.). I suspect the graph added all other taxes, which are part of the income tax into the "Einkommensteuer" field, except for its primary element. So to be correct, you should add Lohnsteuer and Einkommensteuer up, as 1/3 of the total tax income is what the income tax really is worth.
– Dulkan
2 hours ago
@Dulkan: Thanks, corrected!
– bukwyrm
45 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
accepted
The top 20% of income earners pay 50% of Einkommensteuer&Lohnsteuer (income tax), which in turn accounts for 33% of total tax income for the state. (Lohn and Einkommen are separate here, because Lohn references income from paid employ, while Einkommen can be any monies you get apart from paid employ)
People with more than 37.500€ per year paid 80% of the income tax, while people with less than 23.00€ paid 4%.
To frame this another way: the poorest 10% of households paid 20% of their income as tax (any tax) while the richest 10% of households paid 8% of their income as tax (any tax)
So no, not even close.
Sources:
A 2007 Frankfurter Allgemeine article
German Wikipedia's Steueraufkommen page
*: https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/wirtschaft/millionaerssteuer-so-viel-steuern-zahlen-menschen-mit-hohem-einkommen-27875330
*: http://www.taz.de/!5176731/
answered 6 hours ago
bukwyrm
1745
3
What about other taxes?
– Communisty
5 hours ago
This graph is a bit weird. "Lohnsteuer" is generally the primary income tax. "Einkommensteuer" is the combination of all income type taxes (I.e. Lohnsteuer, taxes from investment profits etc.). I suspect the graph added all other taxes, which are part of the income tax into the "Einkommensteuer" field, except for its primary element. So to be correct, you should add Lohnsteuer and Einkommensteuer up, as 1/3 of the total tax income is what the income tax really is worth.
– Dulkan
2 hours ago
@Dulkan: Thanks, corrected!
– bukwyrm
45 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
accepted
up vote
4
down vote
accepted
The top 20% of income earners pay 50% of Einkommensteuer&Lohnsteuer (income tax), which in turn accounts for 33% of total tax income for the state. (Lohn and Einkommen are separate here, because Lohn references income from paid employ, while Einkommen can be any monies you get apart from paid employ)
People with more than 37.500€ per year paid 80% of the income tax, while people with less than 23.00€ paid 4%.
To frame this another way: the poorest 10% of households paid 20% of their income as tax (any tax) while the richest 10% of households paid 8% of their income as tax (any tax)
So no, not even close.
Sources:
A 2007 Frankfurter Allgemeine article
German Wikipedia's Steueraufkommen page
*: https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/wirtschaft/millionaerssteuer-so-viel-steuern-zahlen-menschen-mit-hohem-einkommen-27875330
*: http://www.taz.de/!5176731/
answered 6 hours ago
bukwyrm
1745
The top 20% of income earners pay 50% of Einkommensteuer&Lohnsteuer (income tax), which in turn accounts for 33% of total tax income for the state. (Lohn and Einkommen are separate here, because Lohn references income from paid employ, while Einkommen can be any monies you get apart from paid employ)
People with more than 37.500€ per year paid 80% of the income tax, while people with less than 23.00€ paid 4%.
To frame this another way: the poorest 10% of households paid 20% of their income as tax (any tax) while the richest 10% of households paid 8% of their income as tax (any tax)
So no, not even close.
Sources:
A 2007 Frankfurter Allgemeine article
German Wikipedia's Steueraufkommen page
*: https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/wirtschaft/millionaerssteuer-so-viel-steuern-zahlen-menschen-mit-hohem-einkommen-27875330
*: http://www.taz.de/!5176731/
answered 6 hours ago
bukwyrm
1745
edited 1 hour ago
answered 6 hours ago
bukwyrm
1745
answered 6 hours ago
bukwyrm
1745
answered 6 hours ago
bukwyrm
1745
1745
3
What about other taxes?
– Communisty
5 hours ago
This graph is a bit weird. "Lohnsteuer" is generally the primary income tax. "Einkommensteuer" is the combination of all income type taxes (I.e. Lohnsteuer, taxes from investment profits etc.). I suspect the graph added all other taxes, which are part of the income tax into the "Einkommensteuer" field, except for its primary element. So to be correct, you should add Lohnsteuer and Einkommensteuer up, as 1/3 of the total tax income is what the income tax really is worth.
– Dulkan
2 hours ago
@Dulkan: Thanks, corrected!
– bukwyrm
45 mins ago
add a comment |Â
3
What about other taxes?
– Communisty
5 hours ago
This graph is a bit weird. "Lohnsteuer" is generally the primary income tax. "Einkommensteuer" is the combination of all income type taxes (I.e. Lohnsteuer, taxes from investment profits etc.). I suspect the graph added all other taxes, which are part of the income tax into the "Einkommensteuer" field, except for its primary element. So to be correct, you should add Lohnsteuer and Einkommensteuer up, as 1/3 of the total tax income is what the income tax really is worth.
– Dulkan
2 hours ago
@Dulkan: Thanks, corrected!
– bukwyrm
45 mins ago
3
3
What about other taxes?
– Communisty
5 hours ago
What about other taxes?
– Communisty
5 hours ago
This graph is a bit weird. "Lohnsteuer" is generally the primary income tax. "Einkommensteuer" is the combination of all income type taxes (I.e. Lohnsteuer, taxes from investment profits etc.). I suspect the graph added all other taxes, which are part of the income tax into the "Einkommensteuer" field, except for its primary element. So to be correct, you should add Lohnsteuer and Einkommensteuer up, as 1/3 of the total tax income is what the income tax really is worth.
– Dulkan
2 hours ago
This graph is a bit weird. "Lohnsteuer" is generally the primary income tax. "Einkommensteuer" is the combination of all income type taxes (I.e. Lohnsteuer, taxes from investment profits etc.). I suspect the graph added all other taxes, which are part of the income tax into the "Einkommensteuer" field, except for its primary element. So to be correct, you should add Lohnsteuer and Einkommensteuer up, as 1/3 of the total tax income is what the income tax really is worth.
– Dulkan
2 hours ago
@Dulkan: Thanks, corrected!
– bukwyrm
45 mins ago
@Dulkan: Thanks, corrected!
– bukwyrm
45 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
As written (2 % of 'the rich' pay 50 % of taxes in Germany) this is not true no matter how you spin it. The top 10% of income earners do pay a substantial amount in taxes, true. But that is by far not the whole story to it. Their share in carrying the state finances as a whoöle is much smaller than this number implies and the actual burden put on their shoulders is even quite low.
The statistics just don't give that result from the claim. This is right-wing spin, often repeated. But usually this is claimed with a bit more precision. Like "10 % of 'the rich' pay 50 % of the overall income taxes in Germany" or the like. But even that is only marginally better and almost never backed up by anything. To put a comment from under the question on its feet: But the claim is indeed about tax policy, it is about "hey, we rich pay all the taxes, so shut up about inequality", "and lower the taxes already"… –– Who carries the weight, who can carry how much? And the details of these statics can be interpreted in more than one way.
Another spin on the claim would be the "top 50 percent pay 95 percent of the tax" like Bild newspaper did some time ago. Or like the FAZ did with "10 Prozent zahlen 50 Prozent".
Even if that claim is really just about the income tax, without making it explicit, is that actually true, too? Then the answer is quite clearly: no. But what percentage do the rich pay?
Unfortunately, this cannot be calculated in a simple manner and there are no official statistics to be read with a clear answer. Fortunately we have the Rheinisch-Westfälisches Institut für Wirtschaftsforschung e.V. (RWI). The researchers have looked at an extensive study from the year 2011.
The top 50 percent actually pay in income tax 95 percent of the total.
But that's not the only tax. For the main indirect taxes – VAT, car tax and energy tax – the proportion of the top 50% of households drops to 69 percent.
Now it goes on. The total tax revenue from wage and income tax amounted to 186 billion euros. The Revenue from VAT (excluding import VAT) as well as value added tax and car tax amounts to 189 billion euros. Makes a total of 375 billion euros.
That means then: The top 50 percent pay a total of 81 percent of the tax revenue.
The calculation: 95 percent of 186 billion is 176 billion and 69 percent of 189 billion results in 130 billion. That makes up 306 billion euros. And that's 81 percent of 375 billion euros. (Strictly speaking, an aggregation is problematic for reasons of data material but it is an approximation here). Social security contributions are not even included in this calculation, but the picture is not likely to change significantly.
One important thing to consider: Is that really much or little? It sounds like much or a very great amount. But: it depends on what relation the tax burden is to income. If – an extreme case – the poor do not make money, they cannot contribute to the financing of the State either. The top 50 percent united now around 80 percent of the total income. So one could say that 80 percent of the income also bear 80 percent of the tax burden. Somehow it doesn't sound like the rich fleeced.
On the contary. The lowest economic part cannot contribute much from the start. The highest earners profit from flat taxes like VAT and have many possibilities for legal tax evasion. Plus illegal tax evasion. If the topic is taxes, social security financing has to be included, even if it is not legally defined as a tax, it is one in effect. Then the picture changes drastically. In terms of load and in terms of absolute value the middle part contributes much more than the claims about rich people paying almost all implies.
For indirect taxes, this is quite impressively illustrated:
"The rich" can or could pay much more, as they are much less effected from such a burden. The changes in laws in the last 25 years were almost exclusively to lower the burden on the rich.
Source: Boris Beimann, Rainer Kambeck, Tanja Kasten and Lars-H. Siemers: "Wer trägt den Staat?
Eine Analyse von Steuer- und Abgabenlasten", RWI Position #43 vom 1. April 2011.
answered 31 mins ago
LangLangC
11.6k45569
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
As written (2 % of 'the rich' pay 50 % of taxes in Germany) this is not true no matter how you spin it. The top 10% of income earners do pay a substantial amount in taxes, true. But that is by far not the whole story to it. Their share in carrying the state finances as a whoöle is much smaller than this number implies and the actual burden put on their shoulders is even quite low.
The statistics just don't give that result from the claim. This is right-wing spin, often repeated. But usually this is claimed with a bit more precision. Like "10 % of 'the rich' pay 50 % of the overall income taxes in Germany" or the like. But even that is only marginally better and almost never backed up by anything. To put a comment from under the question on its feet: But the claim is indeed about tax policy, it is about "hey, we rich pay all the taxes, so shut up about inequality", "and lower the taxes already"… –– Who carries the weight, who can carry how much? And the details of these statics can be interpreted in more than one way.
Another spin on the claim would be the "top 50 percent pay 95 percent of the tax" like Bild newspaper did some time ago. Or like the FAZ did with "10 Prozent zahlen 50 Prozent".
Even if that claim is really just about the income tax, without making it explicit, is that actually true, too? Then the answer is quite clearly: no. But what percentage do the rich pay?
Unfortunately, this cannot be calculated in a simple manner and there are no official statistics to be read with a clear answer. Fortunately we have the Rheinisch-Westfälisches Institut für Wirtschaftsforschung e.V. (RWI). The researchers have looked at an extensive study from the year 2011.
The top 50 percent actually pay in income tax 95 percent of the total.
But that's not the only tax. For the main indirect taxes – VAT, car tax and energy tax – the proportion of the top 50% of households drops to 69 percent.
Now it goes on. The total tax revenue from wage and income tax amounted to 186 billion euros. The Revenue from VAT (excluding import VAT) as well as value added tax and car tax amounts to 189 billion euros. Makes a total of 375 billion euros.
That means then: The top 50 percent pay a total of 81 percent of the tax revenue.
The calculation: 95 percent of 186 billion is 176 billion and 69 percent of 189 billion results in 130 billion. That makes up 306 billion euros. And that's 81 percent of 375 billion euros. (Strictly speaking, an aggregation is problematic for reasons of data material but it is an approximation here). Social security contributions are not even included in this calculation, but the picture is not likely to change significantly.
One important thing to consider: Is that really much or little? It sounds like much or a very great amount. But: it depends on what relation the tax burden is to income. If – an extreme case – the poor do not make money, they cannot contribute to the financing of the State either. The top 50 percent united now around 80 percent of the total income. So one could say that 80 percent of the income also bear 80 percent of the tax burden. Somehow it doesn't sound like the rich fleeced.
On the contary. The lowest economic part cannot contribute much from the start. The highest earners profit from flat taxes like VAT and have many possibilities for legal tax evasion. Plus illegal tax evasion. If the topic is taxes, social security financing has to be included, even if it is not legally defined as a tax, it is one in effect. Then the picture changes drastically. In terms of load and in terms of absolute value the middle part contributes much more than the claims about rich people paying almost all implies.
For indirect taxes, this is quite impressively illustrated:
"The rich" can or could pay much more, as they are much less effected from such a burden. The changes in laws in the last 25 years were almost exclusively to lower the burden on the rich.
Source: Boris Beimann, Rainer Kambeck, Tanja Kasten and Lars-H. Siemers: "Wer trägt den Staat?
Eine Analyse von Steuer- und Abgabenlasten", RWI Position #43 vom 1. April 2011.
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LangLangC
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As written (2 % of 'the rich' pay 50 % of taxes in Germany) this is not true no matter how you spin it. The top 10% of income earners do pay a substantial amount in taxes, true. But that is by far not the whole story to it. Their share in carrying the state finances as a whoöle is much smaller than this number implies and the actual burden put on their shoulders is even quite low.
The statistics just don't give that result from the claim. This is right-wing spin, often repeated. But usually this is claimed with a bit more precision. Like "10 % of 'the rich' pay 50 % of the overall income taxes in Germany" or the like. But even that is only marginally better and almost never backed up by anything. To put a comment from under the question on its feet: But the claim is indeed about tax policy, it is about "hey, we rich pay all the taxes, so shut up about inequality", "and lower the taxes already"… –– Who carries the weight, who can carry how much? And the details of these statics can be interpreted in more than one way.
Another spin on the claim would be the "top 50 percent pay 95 percent of the tax" like Bild newspaper did some time ago. Or like the FAZ did with "10 Prozent zahlen 50 Prozent".
Even if that claim is really just about the income tax, without making it explicit, is that actually true, too? Then the answer is quite clearly: no. But what percentage do the rich pay?
Unfortunately, this cannot be calculated in a simple manner and there are no official statistics to be read with a clear answer. Fortunately we have the Rheinisch-Westfälisches Institut für Wirtschaftsforschung e.V. (RWI). The researchers have looked at an extensive study from the year 2011.
The top 50 percent actually pay in income tax 95 percent of the total.
But that's not the only tax. For the main indirect taxes – VAT, car tax and energy tax – the proportion of the top 50% of households drops to 69 percent.
Now it goes on. The total tax revenue from wage and income tax amounted to 186 billion euros. The Revenue from VAT (excluding import VAT) as well as value added tax and car tax amounts to 189 billion euros. Makes a total of 375 billion euros.
That means then: The top 50 percent pay a total of 81 percent of the tax revenue.
The calculation: 95 percent of 186 billion is 176 billion and 69 percent of 189 billion results in 130 billion. That makes up 306 billion euros. And that's 81 percent of 375 billion euros. (Strictly speaking, an aggregation is problematic for reasons of data material but it is an approximation here). Social security contributions are not even included in this calculation, but the picture is not likely to change significantly.
One important thing to consider: Is that really much or little? It sounds like much or a very great amount. But: it depends on what relation the tax burden is to income. If – an extreme case – the poor do not make money, they cannot contribute to the financing of the State either. The top 50 percent united now around 80 percent of the total income. So one could say that 80 percent of the income also bear 80 percent of the tax burden. Somehow it doesn't sound like the rich fleeced.
On the contary. The lowest economic part cannot contribute much from the start. The highest earners profit from flat taxes like VAT and have many possibilities for legal tax evasion. Plus illegal tax evasion. If the topic is taxes, social security financing has to be included, even if it is not legally defined as a tax, it is one in effect. Then the picture changes drastically. In terms of load and in terms of absolute value the middle part contributes much more than the claims about rich people paying almost all implies.
For indirect taxes, this is quite impressively illustrated:
"The rich" can or could pay much more, as they are much less effected from such a burden. The changes in laws in the last 25 years were almost exclusively to lower the burden on the rich.
Source: Boris Beimann, Rainer Kambeck, Tanja Kasten and Lars-H. Siemers: "Wer trägt den Staat?
Eine Analyse von Steuer- und Abgabenlasten", RWI Position #43 vom 1. April 2011.
answered 31 mins ago
LangLangC
11.6k45569
As written (2 % of 'the rich' pay 50 % of taxes in Germany) this is not true no matter how you spin it. The top 10% of income earners do pay a substantial amount in taxes, true. But that is by far not the whole story to it. Their share in carrying the state finances as a whoöle is much smaller than this number implies and the actual burden put on their shoulders is even quite low.
The statistics just don't give that result from the claim. This is right-wing spin, often repeated. But usually this is claimed with a bit more precision. Like "10 % of 'the rich' pay 50 % of the overall income taxes in Germany" or the like. But even that is only marginally better and almost never backed up by anything. To put a comment from under the question on its feet: But the claim is indeed about tax policy, it is about "hey, we rich pay all the taxes, so shut up about inequality", "and lower the taxes already"… –– Who carries the weight, who can carry how much? And the details of these statics can be interpreted in more than one way.
Another spin on the claim would be the "top 50 percent pay 95 percent of the tax" like Bild newspaper did some time ago. Or like the FAZ did with "10 Prozent zahlen 50 Prozent".
Even if that claim is really just about the income tax, without making it explicit, is that actually true, too? Then the answer is quite clearly: no. But what percentage do the rich pay?
Unfortunately, this cannot be calculated in a simple manner and there are no official statistics to be read with a clear answer. Fortunately we have the Rheinisch-Westfälisches Institut für Wirtschaftsforschung e.V. (RWI). The researchers have looked at an extensive study from the year 2011.
The top 50 percent actually pay in income tax 95 percent of the total.
But that's not the only tax. For the main indirect taxes – VAT, car tax and energy tax – the proportion of the top 50% of households drops to 69 percent.
Now it goes on. The total tax revenue from wage and income tax amounted to 186 billion euros. The Revenue from VAT (excluding import VAT) as well as value added tax and car tax amounts to 189 billion euros. Makes a total of 375 billion euros.
That means then: The top 50 percent pay a total of 81 percent of the tax revenue.
The calculation: 95 percent of 186 billion is 176 billion and 69 percent of 189 billion results in 130 billion. That makes up 306 billion euros. And that's 81 percent of 375 billion euros. (Strictly speaking, an aggregation is problematic for reasons of data material but it is an approximation here). Social security contributions are not even included in this calculation, but the picture is not likely to change significantly.
One important thing to consider: Is that really much or little? It sounds like much or a very great amount. But: it depends on what relation the tax burden is to income. If – an extreme case – the poor do not make money, they cannot contribute to the financing of the State either. The top 50 percent united now around 80 percent of the total income. So one could say that 80 percent of the income also bear 80 percent of the tax burden. Somehow it doesn't sound like the rich fleeced.
On the contary. The lowest economic part cannot contribute much from the start. The highest earners profit from flat taxes like VAT and have many possibilities for legal tax evasion. Plus illegal tax evasion. If the topic is taxes, social security financing has to be included, even if it is not legally defined as a tax, it is one in effect. Then the picture changes drastically. In terms of load and in terms of absolute value the middle part contributes much more than the claims about rich people paying almost all implies.
For indirect taxes, this is quite impressively illustrated:
"The rich" can or could pay much more, as they are much less effected from such a burden. The changes in laws in the last 25 years were almost exclusively to lower the burden on the rich.
Source: Boris Beimann, Rainer Kambeck, Tanja Kasten and Lars-H. Siemers: "Wer trägt den Staat?
Eine Analyse von Steuer- und Abgabenlasten", RWI Position #43 vom 1. April 2011.
answered 31 mins ago
LangLangC
11.6k45569
answered 31 mins ago
LangLangC
11.6k45569
answered 31 mins ago
LangLangC
11.6k45569
answered 31 mins ago
LangLangC
11.6k45569
11.6k45569
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1
It's not a notable claim if some random guy posted it in a forum. It's also not well defined. The vast majority of taxed is paid by companies so are the 2% the owners of these companies?
– FooBar
6 hours ago
1
"The rich people", "Of all taxes..." -- Both terms are so woefully weak that it will be nearly impossible to answer ("correctly"). Who is "rich people"? By income? By wealth? What is "wealth", exactly? What is "all taxes"? Income tax, property tax, VAT is more or less a given, but the latter will be hard to get exact numbers for. How much of business tax or capital tax payed by companies controlled by individuals is calculated as "being payed" by said individual? What about inheritance tax, how do you figure that?
– DevSolar
6 hours ago
1
@DevSolar Oh, true. Totally missed that. Can be 2 % of the population or only 2 % of the people having more than 70.000 €/a. Or as you stated something completely different. You are right.
– OddDev
6 hours ago
1
Ah, see? The reading that he's actually talking about 2% of the rich has escaped me. But anyway, I wouldn't approach his reasoning from the numbers perspective at all, because that would just lend credibility to the larger sociological statement being made (which is bogus).
– DevSolar
5 hours ago
3
@DevSolar Then I think the claim itself is too sloppy and confused to be a good claim. I've pointed out a similar (much clearer) claim from the UK. And I disagree that it is worth analysing such claims as they are a big issue in setting tax policy the details of which are rarely understood by the public.
– matt_black
4 hours ago