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Am I the only one to hear Cb instead of B here?
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This comes from BWV 847 (the C minor fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier).
Look at the third beat from measure 28.
I can't help but hear an A flat minor chord here, that is Eb, Cb, Ab. Especially when playing with an "organ" sound on a synthesizer or something rich (because of the harmonics of the Eb at the bass, I suppose). Try to add the Eb above middle C to the chord to see what I mean.
I know that the harmony is supposed to be a G dominant over the Eb (that is a vanilla V/I movement over the Eb), and you can suppress any tentative to think otherwise by adding the D to the chord (I even have an edition at home which suggest that there is at least one manuscript where the copier added this D).
Am I the only one to hear this "C flat" ? Is there any actual example of chromatic mediant movement in Bach by the way ? Would you add the D to the chord ?
EDIT: here I can hear it a lot :
(at 3:28)
harmony hearing
asked 1 hour ago
Alexandre C.
24115
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
This comes from BWV 847 (the C minor fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier).
Look at the third beat from measure 28.
I can't help but hear an A flat minor chord here, that is Eb, Cb, Ab. Especially when playing with an "organ" sound on a synthesizer or something rich (because of the harmonics of the Eb at the bass, I suppose). Try to add the Eb above middle C to the chord to see what I mean.
I know that the harmony is supposed to be a G dominant over the Eb (that is a vanilla V/I movement over the Eb), and you can suppress any tentative to think otherwise by adding the D to the chord (I even have an edition at home which suggest that there is at least one manuscript where the copier added this D).
Am I the only one to hear this "C flat" ? Is there any actual example of chromatic mediant movement in Bach by the way ? Would you add the D to the chord ?
EDIT: here I can hear it a lot :
(at 3:28)
harmony hearing
asked 1 hour ago
Alexandre C.
24115
Did you mean an Abm chord?
– Tim
59 mins ago
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
– Alexandre C.
48 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
This comes from BWV 847 (the C minor fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier).
Look at the third beat from measure 28.
I can't help but hear an A flat minor chord here, that is Eb, Cb, Ab. Especially when playing with an "organ" sound on a synthesizer or something rich (because of the harmonics of the Eb at the bass, I suppose). Try to add the Eb above middle C to the chord to see what I mean.
I know that the harmony is supposed to be a G dominant over the Eb (that is a vanilla V/I movement over the Eb), and you can suppress any tentative to think otherwise by adding the D to the chord (I even have an edition at home which suggest that there is at least one manuscript where the copier added this D).
Am I the only one to hear this "C flat" ? Is there any actual example of chromatic mediant movement in Bach by the way ? Would you add the D to the chord ?
EDIT: here I can hear it a lot :
(at 3:28)
harmony hearing
asked 1 hour ago
Alexandre C.
24115
This comes from BWV 847 (the C minor fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier).
Look at the third beat from measure 28.
I can't help but hear an A flat minor chord here, that is Eb, Cb, Ab. Especially when playing with an "organ" sound on a synthesizer or something rich (because of the harmonics of the Eb at the bass, I suppose). Try to add the Eb above middle C to the chord to see what I mean.
I know that the harmony is supposed to be a G dominant over the Eb (that is a vanilla V/I movement over the Eb), and you can suppress any tentative to think otherwise by adding the D to the chord (I even have an edition at home which suggest that there is at least one manuscript where the copier added this D).
Am I the only one to hear this "C flat" ? Is there any actual example of chromatic mediant movement in Bach by the way ? Would you add the D to the chord ?
EDIT: here I can hear it a lot :
(at 3:28)
harmony hearing
harmony hearing
asked 1 hour ago
Alexandre C.
24115
asked 1 hour ago
Alexandre C.
24115
edited 31 mins ago
asked 1 hour ago
Alexandre C.
24115
asked 1 hour ago
Alexandre C.
24115
asked 1 hour ago
Alexandre C.
24115
24115
Did you mean an Abm chord?
– Tim
59 mins ago
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
– Alexandre C.
48 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Did you mean an Abm chord?
– Tim
59 mins ago
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
– Alexandre C.
48 mins ago
Did you mean an Abm chord?
– Tim
59 mins ago
Did you mean an Abm chord?
– Tim
59 mins ago
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
– Alexandre C.
48 mins ago
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
– Alexandre C.
48 mins ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.
And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.
answered 1 hour ago
Scott Wallace
3,775715
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
– Alexandre C.
46 mins ago
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
– Scott Wallace
27 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."
I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.
That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:
answered 1 hour ago
Ben I.
988415
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
– Alexandre C.
48 mins ago
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
– Scott Wallace
31 mins ago
@ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
– Alexandre C.
27 mins ago
@AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
– Scott Wallace
24 mins ago
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
– Ben I.
23 mins ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.
And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.
answered 1 hour ago
Scott Wallace
3,775715
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
– Alexandre C.
46 mins ago
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
– Scott Wallace
27 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.
And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.
answered 1 hour ago
Scott Wallace
3,775715
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
– Alexandre C.
46 mins ago
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
– Scott Wallace
27 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.
And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.
answered 1 hour ago
Scott Wallace
3,775715
Sure, if you listen to this chord out of context, it sounds like a 2nd inversion Ab minor chord. But in context, at least to me, the chord and its resolution on the second eighth note seem to be a perfectly straightforward, and typical for Bach, dominant to tonic motion, where the dominant is a dimished seventh chord (missing its third and fifth), and the tonic is in the first inversion and anticipated in the bass.
And there's no room for a D in the chord- this is a three voice fugue.
answered 1 hour ago
Scott Wallace
3,775715
answered 1 hour ago
Scott Wallace
3,775715
answered 1 hour ago
Scott Wallace
3,775715
answered 1 hour ago
Scott Wallace
3,775715
3,775715
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
– Alexandre C.
46 mins ago
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
– Scott Wallace
27 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
– Alexandre C.
46 mins ago
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
– Scott Wallace
27 mins ago
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
– Alexandre C.
46 mins ago
Yeah, it's a 3 voice fugue, but if I were to disambiguate, that's what I would do (adding F to the chord would imply resolving onto a doubled Eb -- not good).
– Alexandre C.
46 mins ago
1
1
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
– Scott Wallace
27 mins ago
@AlexandreC. - yes, adding a D to the chord would strengthen the dominant feeling. But it would disrupt the fugue.
– Scott Wallace
27 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."
I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.
That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:
answered 1 hour ago
Ben I.
988415
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
– Alexandre C.
48 mins ago
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
– Scott Wallace
31 mins ago
@ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
– Alexandre C.
27 mins ago
@AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
– Scott Wallace
24 mins ago
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
– Ben I.
23 mins ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
3
down vote
The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."
I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.
That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:
answered 1 hour ago
Ben I.
988415
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
– Alexandre C.
48 mins ago
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
– Scott Wallace
31 mins ago
@ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
– Alexandre C.
27 mins ago
@AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
– Scott Wallace
24 mins ago
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
– Ben I.
23 mins ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."
I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.
That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:
answered 1 hour ago
Ben I.
988415
The way you've phrased your question is a little strange, since the only possible answer would be "no, you are undoubtedly not the only one."
I hear it a little differently from Scott, but it doesn't really make sense as a full chord. I hear the B and the Ab as simple accented non-chord tones, with a chromatic rise (B-C) and descent (Ab-G) to the expected i6 chord.
That seems fairly clear to me on reading it, and is also how I hear it when performed:
answered 1 hour ago
Ben I.
988415
answered 1 hour ago
Ben I.
988415
answered 1 hour ago
Ben I.
988415
answered 1 hour ago
Ben I.
988415
988415
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
– Alexandre C.
48 mins ago
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
– Scott Wallace
31 mins ago
@ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
– Alexandre C.
27 mins ago
@AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
– Scott Wallace
24 mins ago
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
– Ben I.
23 mins ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
– Alexandre C.
48 mins ago
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
– Scott Wallace
31 mins ago
@ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
– Alexandre C.
27 mins ago
@AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
– Scott Wallace
24 mins ago
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
– Ben I.
23 mins ago
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
– Alexandre C.
48 mins ago
It depends on the instrument. Eg. youtube.com/watch?v=3ceiQadblRQ (at 3:28)
– Alexandre C.
48 mins ago
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
– Scott Wallace
31 mins ago
Ben- I suspect I hear it pretty much the same as you. I hear the i6 chord with two accented non-chord tones as well. It's just that the non-chord tones imply a dominant to me.
– Scott Wallace
31 mins ago
@ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
– Alexandre C.
27 mins ago
@ScottWallace: On the piano, I would agree that I have to force myself to hear it differently. On the organ though, (see link just above) those two notes imply something very different to me -- the B doesn't feel like a leading tone but rather as the third of the implied harmony (Cb).
– Alexandre C.
27 mins ago
@AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
– Scott Wallace
24 mins ago
@AlexandreC. - of course, we all hear things differently. But even in the organ version, since the B goes up to C, and because a dominant makes harmonic sense in the context, I still hear it that way.
– Scott Wallace
24 mins ago
1
1
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
– Ben I.
23 mins ago
@ScottWallace Ah, I see. For some reason, I didn't catch that from your answer. Then we are in total agreement, because the two NCTs are certainly dominant-ish :)
– Ben I.
23 mins ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
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Did you mean an Abm chord?
– Tim
59 mins ago
@Tim Yeah, of course. Fixed.
– Alexandre C.
48 mins ago