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To flap or not to flap?
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
up vote
2
down vote
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I am learning to fly an Ikarus-C42. The instructor I have recommends to all students that they land without flaps, because it is less to think about and because it gives you more airspeed, thus less chance of stalling or losing control on approach.
Now, I'm not one to second guess someone much more experienced than me, but I do have to ask - is this truly best practice?
I have conducted some reading on the subject and it seems that not using flaps and the consequent high speed landings performed by many students is one of the main reasons for the high incident rate that involve overshooting runways (not to mention the excessive wear on the brakes). Additionally, it doesn't seem to prep you well for the 'real world'. I can't imagine telling your F.O on a 737 'Don't worry about flaps today, it's too much to think about' :D
landing flaps ikarus-c42
asked 4 hours ago
Cloud
2,35211340
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
I am learning to fly an Ikarus-C42. The instructor I have recommends to all students that they land without flaps, because it is less to think about and because it gives you more airspeed, thus less chance of stalling or losing control on approach.
Now, I'm not one to second guess someone much more experienced than me, but I do have to ask - is this truly best practice?
I have conducted some reading on the subject and it seems that not using flaps and the consequent high speed landings performed by many students is one of the main reasons for the high incident rate that involve overshooting runways (not to mention the excessive wear on the brakes). Additionally, it doesn't seem to prep you well for the 'real world'. I can't imagine telling your F.O on a 737 'Don't worry about flaps today, it's too much to think about' :D
landing flaps ikarus-c42
asked 4 hours ago
Cloud
2,35211340
I think at least one answer should say "If offered the choice between doing what your instructor says, and what some guys on the internet say, go with your instructor."
– DJClayworth
18 mins ago
@DJClayworth I think mine comes fairly close. I didn't use those exact words, but the sentiment is there.
– Î± CVn
4 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
I am learning to fly an Ikarus-C42. The instructor I have recommends to all students that they land without flaps, because it is less to think about and because it gives you more airspeed, thus less chance of stalling or losing control on approach.
Now, I'm not one to second guess someone much more experienced than me, but I do have to ask - is this truly best practice?
I have conducted some reading on the subject and it seems that not using flaps and the consequent high speed landings performed by many students is one of the main reasons for the high incident rate that involve overshooting runways (not to mention the excessive wear on the brakes). Additionally, it doesn't seem to prep you well for the 'real world'. I can't imagine telling your F.O on a 737 'Don't worry about flaps today, it's too much to think about' :D
landing flaps ikarus-c42
asked 4 hours ago
Cloud
2,35211340
I am learning to fly an Ikarus-C42. The instructor I have recommends to all students that they land without flaps, because it is less to think about and because it gives you more airspeed, thus less chance of stalling or losing control on approach.
Now, I'm not one to second guess someone much more experienced than me, but I do have to ask - is this truly best practice?
I have conducted some reading on the subject and it seems that not using flaps and the consequent high speed landings performed by many students is one of the main reasons for the high incident rate that involve overshooting runways (not to mention the excessive wear on the brakes). Additionally, it doesn't seem to prep you well for the 'real world'. I can't imagine telling your F.O on a 737 'Don't worry about flaps today, it's too much to think about' :D
landing flaps ikarus-c42
landing flaps ikarus-c42
asked 4 hours ago
Cloud
2,35211340
asked 4 hours ago
Cloud
2,35211340
asked 4 hours ago
Cloud
2,35211340
asked 4 hours ago
Cloud
2,35211340
asked 4 hours ago
Cloud
2,35211340
2,35211340
I think at least one answer should say "If offered the choice between doing what your instructor says, and what some guys on the internet say, go with your instructor."
– DJClayworth
18 mins ago
@DJClayworth I think mine comes fairly close. I didn't use those exact words, but the sentiment is there.
– Î± CVn
4 mins ago
add a comment |Â
I think at least one answer should say "If offered the choice between doing what your instructor says, and what some guys on the internet say, go with your instructor."
– DJClayworth
18 mins ago
@DJClayworth I think mine comes fairly close. I didn't use those exact words, but the sentiment is there.
– Î± CVn
4 mins ago
I think at least one answer should say "If offered the choice between doing what your instructor says, and what some guys on the internet say, go with your instructor."
– DJClayworth
18 mins ago
I think at least one answer should say "If offered the choice between doing what your instructor says, and what some guys on the internet say, go with your instructor."
– DJClayworth
18 mins ago
@DJClayworth I think mine comes fairly close. I didn't use those exact words, but the sentiment is there.
– Î± CVn
4 mins ago
@DJClayworth I think mine comes fairly close. I didn't use those exact words, but the sentiment is there.
– Î± CVn
4 mins ago
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
It's an unusual practice but, in view of the Ikarus's very light control forces combined with a heavy and awkward flap lever, I am going to guess that the instructor has found that students have difficulty controlling the airplane's pitch and trim while manhandling the flap handle and it's less grief during initial training to simply leave flaps out of it until the student's skill progresses. The very light wing loading and small flap area means there is not a huge difference in flaps up flaps down performance, so it's not so big a deal compared to say a 152, where landing flapless is considered a more advanced exercise.
Their use will in introduced in a few lessons.
answered 3 hours ago
John K
9,9771030
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
You don't say which variant you're flying, but the C42B is perfectly capable of both taking off and landing with zero flaps on a reasonable-length runway. I've done it on several occasions with huge margin even for touch-and-gos on my home field's 1300 m asphalt runway. You do need to adjust the angle of attack (via pitch), but if you're flying the airspeed you'll basically be doing that anyway, so no big deal.
Extending flaps give you better flying characteristics at low airspeed, but increases drag. If you're flying the approach at reasonably high speed, then you likely don't particularly need the extra lift, and in fact it might even be detrimental especially once you're wheels on runway and trying to slow down. With flaps extended, you also need to monitor your airspeed more closely to make sure you aren't exceeding VFE.
On the flip (flap?) side, the C42 flaps lever manipulates the flaps directly -- it's just a cable going through the fuselage. Any time you're handling the lever, you are fighting directly against the airflow around the wing, with no help from e.g. elevator trim, let alone hydraulics or even electrics. I know that the effects of this came as a bit of a surprise for me the first few times I retracted flaps in flight; it's very easy to end up with a rough flaps retraction if you aren't prepared for the force involved.
You're supposed to be flying the airplane all the way to the ground, and only bleed off the flying airspeed very late during the landing, in the flare when you should end up at stall speed with the wheels just barely above the runway.
It's possible that your instructor feels that the added complexity of also handling the flaps lever (and the resultant drag changes) simply may risk being overwhelming at first. It's not like there isn't already a lot going on during a standard traffic pattern coming in to land; there's airspeed, altitude, auxiliary pump, carb heat, scanning for traffic, radio communications, keeping good tabs on your position relative to the runway, lining up for final approach mind the wind, ...
Your instructor likely has a plan for how to introduce the use of flaps during landing; you are most likely going to need them by the time you're doing short-field work, if not before. You also can, and should, discuss with your instructor anything where you don't feel that you understand the instructor's rationale. Asking strangers on the Internet for advice is fine, and can provide additional insight (which can be quite valuable!), but should never be a replacement for asking your instructor.
Additionally, it doesn't seem to prep you well for the 'real world'. I can't imagine telling your F.O on a 737 'Don't worry about flaps today, it's too much to think about' :D
I know you added a smiley, but it's no joking matter. Don't treat, or think of, the C42 like a commercial jetliner. Don't think learning to fly a C42 will allow you to just drop into the cockpit of a jetliner (even a realistically simulated one) and fly the latter. It isn't, it will never be, it won't, and the C42 handles quite differently from the big iron. That doesn't make the C42 any less "real world".
answered 51 mins ago
α CVn
3,21021645
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
The Ikarus C42 is much lighter than a comparable Cessna 152, with a much lower stall speed, even with no flaps. If there is ample room to land, keeping it simple may be best for now. However, busy instructors sometimes may miss something that is very important to you. So, if you want to include flaps in your flying, let them know and include it next time out. Smaller, lighter planes many times simply do not need them.
answered 3 hours ago
Robert DiGiovanni
60029
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
It's an unusual practice but, in view of the Ikarus's very light control forces combined with a heavy and awkward flap lever, I am going to guess that the instructor has found that students have difficulty controlling the airplane's pitch and trim while manhandling the flap handle and it's less grief during initial training to simply leave flaps out of it until the student's skill progresses. The very light wing loading and small flap area means there is not a huge difference in flaps up flaps down performance, so it's not so big a deal compared to say a 152, where landing flapless is considered a more advanced exercise.
Their use will in introduced in a few lessons.
answered 3 hours ago
John K
9,9771030
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
It's an unusual practice but, in view of the Ikarus's very light control forces combined with a heavy and awkward flap lever, I am going to guess that the instructor has found that students have difficulty controlling the airplane's pitch and trim while manhandling the flap handle and it's less grief during initial training to simply leave flaps out of it until the student's skill progresses. The very light wing loading and small flap area means there is not a huge difference in flaps up flaps down performance, so it's not so big a deal compared to say a 152, where landing flapless is considered a more advanced exercise.
Their use will in introduced in a few lessons.
answered 3 hours ago
John K
9,9771030
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
It's an unusual practice but, in view of the Ikarus's very light control forces combined with a heavy and awkward flap lever, I am going to guess that the instructor has found that students have difficulty controlling the airplane's pitch and trim while manhandling the flap handle and it's less grief during initial training to simply leave flaps out of it until the student's skill progresses. The very light wing loading and small flap area means there is not a huge difference in flaps up flaps down performance, so it's not so big a deal compared to say a 152, where landing flapless is considered a more advanced exercise.
Their use will in introduced in a few lessons.
answered 3 hours ago
John K
9,9771030
It's an unusual practice but, in view of the Ikarus's very light control forces combined with a heavy and awkward flap lever, I am going to guess that the instructor has found that students have difficulty controlling the airplane's pitch and trim while manhandling the flap handle and it's less grief during initial training to simply leave flaps out of it until the student's skill progresses. The very light wing loading and small flap area means there is not a huge difference in flaps up flaps down performance, so it's not so big a deal compared to say a 152, where landing flapless is considered a more advanced exercise.
Their use will in introduced in a few lessons.
answered 3 hours ago
John K
9,9771030
answered 3 hours ago
John K
9,9771030
answered 3 hours ago
John K
9,9771030
answered 3 hours ago
John K
9,9771030
9,9771030
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
You don't say which variant you're flying, but the C42B is perfectly capable of both taking off and landing with zero flaps on a reasonable-length runway. I've done it on several occasions with huge margin even for touch-and-gos on my home field's 1300 m asphalt runway. You do need to adjust the angle of attack (via pitch), but if you're flying the airspeed you'll basically be doing that anyway, so no big deal.
Extending flaps give you better flying characteristics at low airspeed, but increases drag. If you're flying the approach at reasonably high speed, then you likely don't particularly need the extra lift, and in fact it might even be detrimental especially once you're wheels on runway and trying to slow down. With flaps extended, you also need to monitor your airspeed more closely to make sure you aren't exceeding VFE.
On the flip (flap?) side, the C42 flaps lever manipulates the flaps directly -- it's just a cable going through the fuselage. Any time you're handling the lever, you are fighting directly against the airflow around the wing, with no help from e.g. elevator trim, let alone hydraulics or even electrics. I know that the effects of this came as a bit of a surprise for me the first few times I retracted flaps in flight; it's very easy to end up with a rough flaps retraction if you aren't prepared for the force involved.
You're supposed to be flying the airplane all the way to the ground, and only bleed off the flying airspeed very late during the landing, in the flare when you should end up at stall speed with the wheels just barely above the runway.
It's possible that your instructor feels that the added complexity of also handling the flaps lever (and the resultant drag changes) simply may risk being overwhelming at first. It's not like there isn't already a lot going on during a standard traffic pattern coming in to land; there's airspeed, altitude, auxiliary pump, carb heat, scanning for traffic, radio communications, keeping good tabs on your position relative to the runway, lining up for final approach mind the wind, ...
Your instructor likely has a plan for how to introduce the use of flaps during landing; you are most likely going to need them by the time you're doing short-field work, if not before. You also can, and should, discuss with your instructor anything where you don't feel that you understand the instructor's rationale. Asking strangers on the Internet for advice is fine, and can provide additional insight (which can be quite valuable!), but should never be a replacement for asking your instructor.
Additionally, it doesn't seem to prep you well for the 'real world'. I can't imagine telling your F.O on a 737 'Don't worry about flaps today, it's too much to think about' :D
I know you added a smiley, but it's no joking matter. Don't treat, or think of, the C42 like a commercial jetliner. Don't think learning to fly a C42 will allow you to just drop into the cockpit of a jetliner (even a realistically simulated one) and fly the latter. It isn't, it will never be, it won't, and the C42 handles quite differently from the big iron. That doesn't make the C42 any less "real world".
answered 51 mins ago
α CVn
3,21021645
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
You don't say which variant you're flying, but the C42B is perfectly capable of both taking off and landing with zero flaps on a reasonable-length runway. I've done it on several occasions with huge margin even for touch-and-gos on my home field's 1300 m asphalt runway. You do need to adjust the angle of attack (via pitch), but if you're flying the airspeed you'll basically be doing that anyway, so no big deal.
Extending flaps give you better flying characteristics at low airspeed, but increases drag. If you're flying the approach at reasonably high speed, then you likely don't particularly need the extra lift, and in fact it might even be detrimental especially once you're wheels on runway and trying to slow down. With flaps extended, you also need to monitor your airspeed more closely to make sure you aren't exceeding VFE.
On the flip (flap?) side, the C42 flaps lever manipulates the flaps directly -- it's just a cable going through the fuselage. Any time you're handling the lever, you are fighting directly against the airflow around the wing, with no help from e.g. elevator trim, let alone hydraulics or even electrics. I know that the effects of this came as a bit of a surprise for me the first few times I retracted flaps in flight; it's very easy to end up with a rough flaps retraction if you aren't prepared for the force involved.
You're supposed to be flying the airplane all the way to the ground, and only bleed off the flying airspeed very late during the landing, in the flare when you should end up at stall speed with the wheels just barely above the runway.
It's possible that your instructor feels that the added complexity of also handling the flaps lever (and the resultant drag changes) simply may risk being overwhelming at first. It's not like there isn't already a lot going on during a standard traffic pattern coming in to land; there's airspeed, altitude, auxiliary pump, carb heat, scanning for traffic, radio communications, keeping good tabs on your position relative to the runway, lining up for final approach mind the wind, ...
Your instructor likely has a plan for how to introduce the use of flaps during landing; you are most likely going to need them by the time you're doing short-field work, if not before. You also can, and should, discuss with your instructor anything where you don't feel that you understand the instructor's rationale. Asking strangers on the Internet for advice is fine, and can provide additional insight (which can be quite valuable!), but should never be a replacement for asking your instructor.
Additionally, it doesn't seem to prep you well for the 'real world'. I can't imagine telling your F.O on a 737 'Don't worry about flaps today, it's too much to think about' :D
I know you added a smiley, but it's no joking matter. Don't treat, or think of, the C42 like a commercial jetliner. Don't think learning to fly a C42 will allow you to just drop into the cockpit of a jetliner (even a realistically simulated one) and fly the latter. It isn't, it will never be, it won't, and the C42 handles quite differently from the big iron. That doesn't make the C42 any less "real world".
answered 51 mins ago
α CVn
3,21021645
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
You don't say which variant you're flying, but the C42B is perfectly capable of both taking off and landing with zero flaps on a reasonable-length runway. I've done it on several occasions with huge margin even for touch-and-gos on my home field's 1300 m asphalt runway. You do need to adjust the angle of attack (via pitch), but if you're flying the airspeed you'll basically be doing that anyway, so no big deal.
Extending flaps give you better flying characteristics at low airspeed, but increases drag. If you're flying the approach at reasonably high speed, then you likely don't particularly need the extra lift, and in fact it might even be detrimental especially once you're wheels on runway and trying to slow down. With flaps extended, you also need to monitor your airspeed more closely to make sure you aren't exceeding VFE.
On the flip (flap?) side, the C42 flaps lever manipulates the flaps directly -- it's just a cable going through the fuselage. Any time you're handling the lever, you are fighting directly against the airflow around the wing, with no help from e.g. elevator trim, let alone hydraulics or even electrics. I know that the effects of this came as a bit of a surprise for me the first few times I retracted flaps in flight; it's very easy to end up with a rough flaps retraction if you aren't prepared for the force involved.
You're supposed to be flying the airplane all the way to the ground, and only bleed off the flying airspeed very late during the landing, in the flare when you should end up at stall speed with the wheels just barely above the runway.
It's possible that your instructor feels that the added complexity of also handling the flaps lever (and the resultant drag changes) simply may risk being overwhelming at first. It's not like there isn't already a lot going on during a standard traffic pattern coming in to land; there's airspeed, altitude, auxiliary pump, carb heat, scanning for traffic, radio communications, keeping good tabs on your position relative to the runway, lining up for final approach mind the wind, ...
Your instructor likely has a plan for how to introduce the use of flaps during landing; you are most likely going to need them by the time you're doing short-field work, if not before. You also can, and should, discuss with your instructor anything where you don't feel that you understand the instructor's rationale. Asking strangers on the Internet for advice is fine, and can provide additional insight (which can be quite valuable!), but should never be a replacement for asking your instructor.
Additionally, it doesn't seem to prep you well for the 'real world'. I can't imagine telling your F.O on a 737 'Don't worry about flaps today, it's too much to think about' :D
I know you added a smiley, but it's no joking matter. Don't treat, or think of, the C42 like a commercial jetliner. Don't think learning to fly a C42 will allow you to just drop into the cockpit of a jetliner (even a realistically simulated one) and fly the latter. It isn't, it will never be, it won't, and the C42 handles quite differently from the big iron. That doesn't make the C42 any less "real world".
answered 51 mins ago
α CVn
3,21021645
You don't say which variant you're flying, but the C42B is perfectly capable of both taking off and landing with zero flaps on a reasonable-length runway. I've done it on several occasions with huge margin even for touch-and-gos on my home field's 1300 m asphalt runway. You do need to adjust the angle of attack (via pitch), but if you're flying the airspeed you'll basically be doing that anyway, so no big deal.
Extending flaps give you better flying characteristics at low airspeed, but increases drag. If you're flying the approach at reasonably high speed, then you likely don't particularly need the extra lift, and in fact it might even be detrimental especially once you're wheels on runway and trying to slow down. With flaps extended, you also need to monitor your airspeed more closely to make sure you aren't exceeding VFE.
On the flip (flap?) side, the C42 flaps lever manipulates the flaps directly -- it's just a cable going through the fuselage. Any time you're handling the lever, you are fighting directly against the airflow around the wing, with no help from e.g. elevator trim, let alone hydraulics or even electrics. I know that the effects of this came as a bit of a surprise for me the first few times I retracted flaps in flight; it's very easy to end up with a rough flaps retraction if you aren't prepared for the force involved.
You're supposed to be flying the airplane all the way to the ground, and only bleed off the flying airspeed very late during the landing, in the flare when you should end up at stall speed with the wheels just barely above the runway.
It's possible that your instructor feels that the added complexity of also handling the flaps lever (and the resultant drag changes) simply may risk being overwhelming at first. It's not like there isn't already a lot going on during a standard traffic pattern coming in to land; there's airspeed, altitude, auxiliary pump, carb heat, scanning for traffic, radio communications, keeping good tabs on your position relative to the runway, lining up for final approach mind the wind, ...
Your instructor likely has a plan for how to introduce the use of flaps during landing; you are most likely going to need them by the time you're doing short-field work, if not before. You also can, and should, discuss with your instructor anything where you don't feel that you understand the instructor's rationale. Asking strangers on the Internet for advice is fine, and can provide additional insight (which can be quite valuable!), but should never be a replacement for asking your instructor.
Additionally, it doesn't seem to prep you well for the 'real world'. I can't imagine telling your F.O on a 737 'Don't worry about flaps today, it's too much to think about' :D
I know you added a smiley, but it's no joking matter. Don't treat, or think of, the C42 like a commercial jetliner. Don't think learning to fly a C42 will allow you to just drop into the cockpit of a jetliner (even a realistically simulated one) and fly the latter. It isn't, it will never be, it won't, and the C42 handles quite differently from the big iron. That doesn't make the C42 any less "real world".
answered 51 mins ago
α CVn
3,21021645
edited 15 mins ago
answered 51 mins ago
α CVn
3,21021645
answered 51 mins ago
α CVn
3,21021645
answered 51 mins ago
α CVn
3,21021645
3,21021645
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
The Ikarus C42 is much lighter than a comparable Cessna 152, with a much lower stall speed, even with no flaps. If there is ample room to land, keeping it simple may be best for now. However, busy instructors sometimes may miss something that is very important to you. So, if you want to include flaps in your flying, let them know and include it next time out. Smaller, lighter planes many times simply do not need them.
answered 3 hours ago
Robert DiGiovanni
60029
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
The Ikarus C42 is much lighter than a comparable Cessna 152, with a much lower stall speed, even with no flaps. If there is ample room to land, keeping it simple may be best for now. However, busy instructors sometimes may miss something that is very important to you. So, if you want to include flaps in your flying, let them know and include it next time out. Smaller, lighter planes many times simply do not need them.
answered 3 hours ago
Robert DiGiovanni
60029
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
The Ikarus C42 is much lighter than a comparable Cessna 152, with a much lower stall speed, even with no flaps. If there is ample room to land, keeping it simple may be best for now. However, busy instructors sometimes may miss something that is very important to you. So, if you want to include flaps in your flying, let them know and include it next time out. Smaller, lighter planes many times simply do not need them.
answered 3 hours ago
Robert DiGiovanni
60029
The Ikarus C42 is much lighter than a comparable Cessna 152, with a much lower stall speed, even with no flaps. If there is ample room to land, keeping it simple may be best for now. However, busy instructors sometimes may miss something that is very important to you. So, if you want to include flaps in your flying, let them know and include it next time out. Smaller, lighter planes many times simply do not need them.
answered 3 hours ago
Robert DiGiovanni
60029
answered 3 hours ago
Robert DiGiovanni
60029
answered 3 hours ago
Robert DiGiovanni
60029
answered 3 hours ago
Robert DiGiovanni
60029
60029
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
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I think at least one answer should say "If offered the choice between doing what your instructor says, and what some guys on the internet say, go with your instructor."
– DJClayworth
18 mins ago
@DJClayworth I think mine comes fairly close. I didn't use those exact words, but the sentiment is there.
– Î± CVn
4 mins ago