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Do Catholics eat the substance of the Father during “communion�
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The reason I am raising this question is not so much to understand communion as to understand:
- "one substance with the Father" (since that seems at odds with Hebrews 1:1-3 to me)
- "consubstantiation"
- "transubstantiation"
My thought is by understanding this specific I might have a better idea of what they might mean.
So if someone eats Jesus' body does "same substance", "consubstantiation" or "transubstantiation" suggest that Catholics are they eating the Father's substance?
Again, these are probably ignorant questions but the answers might clarify for me what the Catholic theologians are on about.
catholicism nature-of-god trinity communion transubstantiation
asked 3 hours ago
Ruminator
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up vote
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The reason I am raising this question is not so much to understand communion as to understand:
- "one substance with the Father" (since that seems at odds with Hebrews 1:1-3 to me)
- "consubstantiation"
- "transubstantiation"
My thought is by understanding this specific I might have a better idea of what they might mean.
So if someone eats Jesus' body does "same substance", "consubstantiation" or "transubstantiation" suggest that Catholics are they eating the Father's substance?
Again, these are probably ignorant questions but the answers might clarify for me what the Catholic theologians are on about.
catholicism nature-of-god trinity communion transubstantiation
asked 3 hours ago
Ruminator
484112
I'd want someone more knowledgeable with Catholic theology to confirm, but I expect the answer is that it is the divine nature of Christ the Son of God that is consubstantial with the Father, whereas it is only the human nature of Christ that is consumed in the eucharist.
– curiousdannii
2 hours ago
Also, consubstantiation is considered heresy by the Catholic Church, but is accepted by some Lutherans.
– curiousdannii
2 hours ago
Oh boy. Well I'll have to modify my question then; thanks.
– Ruminator
2 hours ago
@curiousdannii the rote answer to what the Eucharist is is that it is Jesus' "Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity" that being said, I don't know the nuanced answer to this question off-hand. Unless it's not a nuanced answer and "The Father and I are One" is the answer.
– Peter Turner♦
2 hours ago
Great question! I believe Christ is present "body soul and divinity" in the Eucharist. I'll see where this question leads.
– Joseph Hinkle
2 hours ago
 |Â
show 4 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
The reason I am raising this question is not so much to understand communion as to understand:
- "one substance with the Father" (since that seems at odds with Hebrews 1:1-3 to me)
- "consubstantiation"
- "transubstantiation"
My thought is by understanding this specific I might have a better idea of what they might mean.
So if someone eats Jesus' body does "same substance", "consubstantiation" or "transubstantiation" suggest that Catholics are they eating the Father's substance?
Again, these are probably ignorant questions but the answers might clarify for me what the Catholic theologians are on about.
catholicism nature-of-god trinity communion transubstantiation
asked 3 hours ago
Ruminator
484112
The reason I am raising this question is not so much to understand communion as to understand:
- "one substance with the Father" (since that seems at odds with Hebrews 1:1-3 to me)
- "consubstantiation"
- "transubstantiation"
My thought is by understanding this specific I might have a better idea of what they might mean.
So if someone eats Jesus' body does "same substance", "consubstantiation" or "transubstantiation" suggest that Catholics are they eating the Father's substance?
Again, these are probably ignorant questions but the answers might clarify for me what the Catholic theologians are on about.
catholicism nature-of-god trinity communion transubstantiation
catholicism nature-of-god trinity communion transubstantiation
asked 3 hours ago
Ruminator
484112
asked 3 hours ago
Ruminator
484112
edited 2 hours ago
asked 3 hours ago
Ruminator
484112
asked 3 hours ago
Ruminator
484112
asked 3 hours ago
Ruminator
484112
484112
I'd want someone more knowledgeable with Catholic theology to confirm, but I expect the answer is that it is the divine nature of Christ the Son of God that is consubstantial with the Father, whereas it is only the human nature of Christ that is consumed in the eucharist.
– curiousdannii
2 hours ago
Also, consubstantiation is considered heresy by the Catholic Church, but is accepted by some Lutherans.
– curiousdannii
2 hours ago
Oh boy. Well I'll have to modify my question then; thanks.
– Ruminator
2 hours ago
@curiousdannii the rote answer to what the Eucharist is is that it is Jesus' "Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity" that being said, I don't know the nuanced answer to this question off-hand. Unless it's not a nuanced answer and "The Father and I are One" is the answer.
– Peter Turner♦
2 hours ago
Great question! I believe Christ is present "body soul and divinity" in the Eucharist. I'll see where this question leads.
– Joseph Hinkle
2 hours ago
 |Â
show 4 more comments
I'd want someone more knowledgeable with Catholic theology to confirm, but I expect the answer is that it is the divine nature of Christ the Son of God that is consubstantial with the Father, whereas it is only the human nature of Christ that is consumed in the eucharist.
– curiousdannii
2 hours ago
Also, consubstantiation is considered heresy by the Catholic Church, but is accepted by some Lutherans.
– curiousdannii
2 hours ago
Oh boy. Well I'll have to modify my question then; thanks.
– Ruminator
2 hours ago
@curiousdannii the rote answer to what the Eucharist is is that it is Jesus' "Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity" that being said, I don't know the nuanced answer to this question off-hand. Unless it's not a nuanced answer and "The Father and I are One" is the answer.
– Peter Turner♦
2 hours ago
Great question! I believe Christ is present "body soul and divinity" in the Eucharist. I'll see where this question leads.
– Joseph Hinkle
2 hours ago
I'd want someone more knowledgeable with Catholic theology to confirm, but I expect the answer is that it is the divine nature of Christ the Son of God that is consubstantial with the Father, whereas it is only the human nature of Christ that is consumed in the eucharist.
– curiousdannii
2 hours ago
I'd want someone more knowledgeable with Catholic theology to confirm, but I expect the answer is that it is the divine nature of Christ the Son of God that is consubstantial with the Father, whereas it is only the human nature of Christ that is consumed in the eucharist.
– curiousdannii
2 hours ago
Also, consubstantiation is considered heresy by the Catholic Church, but is accepted by some Lutherans.
– curiousdannii
2 hours ago
Also, consubstantiation is considered heresy by the Catholic Church, but is accepted by some Lutherans.
– curiousdannii
2 hours ago
Oh boy. Well I'll have to modify my question then; thanks.
– Ruminator
2 hours ago
Oh boy. Well I'll have to modify my question then; thanks.
– Ruminator
2 hours ago
@curiousdannii the rote answer to what the Eucharist is is that it is Jesus' "Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity" that being said, I don't know the nuanced answer to this question off-hand. Unless it's not a nuanced answer and "The Father and I are One" is the answer.
– Peter Turner♦
2 hours ago
@curiousdannii the rote answer to what the Eucharist is is that it is Jesus' "Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity" that being said, I don't know the nuanced answer to this question off-hand. Unless it's not a nuanced answer and "The Father and I are One" is the answer.
– Peter Turner♦
2 hours ago
Great question! I believe Christ is present "body soul and divinity" in the Eucharist. I'll see where this question leads.
– Joseph Hinkle
2 hours ago
Great question! I believe Christ is present "body soul and divinity" in the Eucharist. I'll see where this question leads.
– Joseph Hinkle
2 hours ago
 |Â
show 4 more comments
2 Answers
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Transubstantiation
Transubstantiation is a Latin word consisting of trans (a transition or change) and substantia (substance, or what [makes a thing what] a thing is). Properly, then, it means 'change of what it is.'
This was naturally adopted by a Christians (the East use the Greek equivalent, however, metaousia), who believed that the words of consecration, "This is my body" were literally true of the bread, but not that this demanded the makeup of bread to disappear from it physically—it was a change by God of what the thing now is.
St. Cyril of Jerusalem's words sum this belief up quite well (Catechetical Lectures, 22):
For you have just heard him say distinctly, That our Lord Jesus Christ in the night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks He broke it, and gave to His disciples, saying, Take, eat, this is My Body: and having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, Take, drink, this is My Blood. Since then He Himself declared and said of the Bread, This is My Body, who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has Himself affirmed and said, This is My Blood, who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood? ... Consider therefore the Bread and the Wine not as bare elements, for they are, according to the Lord's declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ; for even though sense suggests this to you, yet let faith establish you. Judge not the matter from the taste, but from faith be fully assured without misgiving, that the Body and Blood of Christ have been vouchsafed to you.
As such, Catholics don't believe that Jesus' body is of one substance with the Father (but that the Son is). The Son is distinct from the body He assumed, given what this sentence just said. Nor do they even believe that Jesus is of one substance with His body (the Son and the body being conflated in such a case). They believe that the substance of the bread has become the substance of the body of Jesus, which is united to His soul and divinity (given that He is a real man with a soul, and the incarnate God).
In other words, they believe it is true when Jesus says, "This is my body" (not 'this bread' is my body; nor a game of charades).
(All accusations of 'cannabalism' will fall on deaf ears, too, when it comes to Catholics, since we know and have always known that there is no change in the accidents—the bread is the same to us before and after and to our body, physically. What has changed alone is the spiritual benefit when recieved, since "God has called" (Acts 10:15; Luke 22:19) it the Bread of Life, which is "[Jesus] flesh" (John 6:51). And so it is in all but appearance.)
answered 2 hours ago
Sola Gratia
2,707617
Okay, so my supposition that "consubstantiation" and "transubstantiation" speak of the same thing as "same substance with the Father" is off; they speak of the body only and that in complex terms but ultimately expressing the idea of a "symbol" acting as proxy for something else?
– Ruminator
1 hour ago
Consubstantiation is not the same thing, no. Consubstantiation is the 'withizing' of something in Latin, since it means 'with the substance.' Christ's body isn't 'with' the bread, the bread becomes (changes substance) the body of Christ. Consubstantiation would be a Lutheran doctrine which says Christ is 'with' what remains bread. And once again, that the Son shares one and the same divine nature with the Father is not the same as his body being one substance with the Father. The Eucharist is not a symbol of the body of Christ in Catholicism or Orthodoxy. It is such.
– Sola Gratia
1 hour ago
I'm reminded of the Talmud where such discussions are routine. Okay, thanks.
– Ruminator
1 hour ago
@ruminator I agree that it is a bit confusing, especially since the Nicene Creed says Jesus is "Consubstantial with the Father". You might remember consubstantial be translated "One in being" (after Vatican II), but went back to being "Consubstantial" (in 2008 or thereabouts) since apparently those two ideas are not consubstantial.
– Peter Turner♦
4 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Catholics believe in transubstantiation, that the substance of the bread and wine is, after consecration, completely replaced by that of Christ's Body and Blood, respectively.
Consubstantiation (or impanation) is a heresy.
Perhaps you're confusing "consubstantiation" with "consubstantial." The latter term is used to describe that the Persons of the Holy Trinity have the same divine essence.
Do Catholics eat the substance of the Father during “communionâ€�
The substance, which immutable because God is immutable, does not perish when one receives Communion.
As St. Thomas Aquinas commentates on John 6:27:
The food that sustains the body is perishable, since it is converted into the nature of the body; but the food that sustains the spirit is not perishable, because it is not converted into the spirit; rather, the spirit is converted into its food. Hence Augustine says in his Confessions: “I am the food of the great; grow and you will eat me. But you will not change me into yourself, as you do bodily food, but you will be changed into me.â€Â
(source: this answer)
answered 16 mins ago
Geremia
17.1k21951
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
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active
oldest
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active
oldest
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up vote
2
down vote
Transubstantiation
Transubstantiation is a Latin word consisting of trans (a transition or change) and substantia (substance, or what [makes a thing what] a thing is). Properly, then, it means 'change of what it is.'
This was naturally adopted by a Christians (the East use the Greek equivalent, however, metaousia), who believed that the words of consecration, "This is my body" were literally true of the bread, but not that this demanded the makeup of bread to disappear from it physically—it was a change by God of what the thing now is.
St. Cyril of Jerusalem's words sum this belief up quite well (Catechetical Lectures, 22):
For you have just heard him say distinctly, That our Lord Jesus Christ in the night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks He broke it, and gave to His disciples, saying, Take, eat, this is My Body: and having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, Take, drink, this is My Blood. Since then He Himself declared and said of the Bread, This is My Body, who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has Himself affirmed and said, This is My Blood, who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood? ... Consider therefore the Bread and the Wine not as bare elements, for they are, according to the Lord's declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ; for even though sense suggests this to you, yet let faith establish you. Judge not the matter from the taste, but from faith be fully assured without misgiving, that the Body and Blood of Christ have been vouchsafed to you.
As such, Catholics don't believe that Jesus' body is of one substance with the Father (but that the Son is). The Son is distinct from the body He assumed, given what this sentence just said. Nor do they even believe that Jesus is of one substance with His body (the Son and the body being conflated in such a case). They believe that the substance of the bread has become the substance of the body of Jesus, which is united to His soul and divinity (given that He is a real man with a soul, and the incarnate God).
In other words, they believe it is true when Jesus says, "This is my body" (not 'this bread' is my body; nor a game of charades).
(All accusations of 'cannabalism' will fall on deaf ears, too, when it comes to Catholics, since we know and have always known that there is no change in the accidents—the bread is the same to us before and after and to our body, physically. What has changed alone is the spiritual benefit when recieved, since "God has called" (Acts 10:15; Luke 22:19) it the Bread of Life, which is "[Jesus] flesh" (John 6:51). And so it is in all but appearance.)
answered 2 hours ago
Sola Gratia
2,707617
Okay, so my supposition that "consubstantiation" and "transubstantiation" speak of the same thing as "same substance with the Father" is off; they speak of the body only and that in complex terms but ultimately expressing the idea of a "symbol" acting as proxy for something else?
– Ruminator
1 hour ago
Consubstantiation is not the same thing, no. Consubstantiation is the 'withizing' of something in Latin, since it means 'with the substance.' Christ's body isn't 'with' the bread, the bread becomes (changes substance) the body of Christ. Consubstantiation would be a Lutheran doctrine which says Christ is 'with' what remains bread. And once again, that the Son shares one and the same divine nature with the Father is not the same as his body being one substance with the Father. The Eucharist is not a symbol of the body of Christ in Catholicism or Orthodoxy. It is such.
– Sola Gratia
1 hour ago
I'm reminded of the Talmud where such discussions are routine. Okay, thanks.
– Ruminator
1 hour ago
@ruminator I agree that it is a bit confusing, especially since the Nicene Creed says Jesus is "Consubstantial with the Father". You might remember consubstantial be translated "One in being" (after Vatican II), but went back to being "Consubstantial" (in 2008 or thereabouts) since apparently those two ideas are not consubstantial.
– Peter Turner♦
4 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Transubstantiation
Transubstantiation is a Latin word consisting of trans (a transition or change) and substantia (substance, or what [makes a thing what] a thing is). Properly, then, it means 'change of what it is.'
This was naturally adopted by a Christians (the East use the Greek equivalent, however, metaousia), who believed that the words of consecration, "This is my body" were literally true of the bread, but not that this demanded the makeup of bread to disappear from it physically—it was a change by God of what the thing now is.
St. Cyril of Jerusalem's words sum this belief up quite well (Catechetical Lectures, 22):
For you have just heard him say distinctly, That our Lord Jesus Christ in the night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks He broke it, and gave to His disciples, saying, Take, eat, this is My Body: and having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, Take, drink, this is My Blood. Since then He Himself declared and said of the Bread, This is My Body, who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has Himself affirmed and said, This is My Blood, who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood? ... Consider therefore the Bread and the Wine not as bare elements, for they are, according to the Lord's declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ; for even though sense suggests this to you, yet let faith establish you. Judge not the matter from the taste, but from faith be fully assured without misgiving, that the Body and Blood of Christ have been vouchsafed to you.
As such, Catholics don't believe that Jesus' body is of one substance with the Father (but that the Son is). The Son is distinct from the body He assumed, given what this sentence just said. Nor do they even believe that Jesus is of one substance with His body (the Son and the body being conflated in such a case). They believe that the substance of the bread has become the substance of the body of Jesus, which is united to His soul and divinity (given that He is a real man with a soul, and the incarnate God).
In other words, they believe it is true when Jesus says, "This is my body" (not 'this bread' is my body; nor a game of charades).
(All accusations of 'cannabalism' will fall on deaf ears, too, when it comes to Catholics, since we know and have always known that there is no change in the accidents—the bread is the same to us before and after and to our body, physically. What has changed alone is the spiritual benefit when recieved, since "God has called" (Acts 10:15; Luke 22:19) it the Bread of Life, which is "[Jesus] flesh" (John 6:51). And so it is in all but appearance.)
answered 2 hours ago
Sola Gratia
2,707617
Okay, so my supposition that "consubstantiation" and "transubstantiation" speak of the same thing as "same substance with the Father" is off; they speak of the body only and that in complex terms but ultimately expressing the idea of a "symbol" acting as proxy for something else?
– Ruminator
1 hour ago
Consubstantiation is not the same thing, no. Consubstantiation is the 'withizing' of something in Latin, since it means 'with the substance.' Christ's body isn't 'with' the bread, the bread becomes (changes substance) the body of Christ. Consubstantiation would be a Lutheran doctrine which says Christ is 'with' what remains bread. And once again, that the Son shares one and the same divine nature with the Father is not the same as his body being one substance with the Father. The Eucharist is not a symbol of the body of Christ in Catholicism or Orthodoxy. It is such.
– Sola Gratia
1 hour ago
I'm reminded of the Talmud where such discussions are routine. Okay, thanks.
– Ruminator
1 hour ago
@ruminator I agree that it is a bit confusing, especially since the Nicene Creed says Jesus is "Consubstantial with the Father". You might remember consubstantial be translated "One in being" (after Vatican II), but went back to being "Consubstantial" (in 2008 or thereabouts) since apparently those two ideas are not consubstantial.
– Peter Turner♦
4 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Transubstantiation
Transubstantiation is a Latin word consisting of trans (a transition or change) and substantia (substance, or what [makes a thing what] a thing is). Properly, then, it means 'change of what it is.'
This was naturally adopted by a Christians (the East use the Greek equivalent, however, metaousia), who believed that the words of consecration, "This is my body" were literally true of the bread, but not that this demanded the makeup of bread to disappear from it physically—it was a change by God of what the thing now is.
St. Cyril of Jerusalem's words sum this belief up quite well (Catechetical Lectures, 22):
For you have just heard him say distinctly, That our Lord Jesus Christ in the night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks He broke it, and gave to His disciples, saying, Take, eat, this is My Body: and having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, Take, drink, this is My Blood. Since then He Himself declared and said of the Bread, This is My Body, who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has Himself affirmed and said, This is My Blood, who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood? ... Consider therefore the Bread and the Wine not as bare elements, for they are, according to the Lord's declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ; for even though sense suggests this to you, yet let faith establish you. Judge not the matter from the taste, but from faith be fully assured without misgiving, that the Body and Blood of Christ have been vouchsafed to you.
As such, Catholics don't believe that Jesus' body is of one substance with the Father (but that the Son is). The Son is distinct from the body He assumed, given what this sentence just said. Nor do they even believe that Jesus is of one substance with His body (the Son and the body being conflated in such a case). They believe that the substance of the bread has become the substance of the body of Jesus, which is united to His soul and divinity (given that He is a real man with a soul, and the incarnate God).
In other words, they believe it is true when Jesus says, "This is my body" (not 'this bread' is my body; nor a game of charades).
(All accusations of 'cannabalism' will fall on deaf ears, too, when it comes to Catholics, since we know and have always known that there is no change in the accidents—the bread is the same to us before and after and to our body, physically. What has changed alone is the spiritual benefit when recieved, since "God has called" (Acts 10:15; Luke 22:19) it the Bread of Life, which is "[Jesus] flesh" (John 6:51). And so it is in all but appearance.)
answered 2 hours ago
Sola Gratia
2,707617
Transubstantiation
Transubstantiation is a Latin word consisting of trans (a transition or change) and substantia (substance, or what [makes a thing what] a thing is). Properly, then, it means 'change of what it is.'
This was naturally adopted by a Christians (the East use the Greek equivalent, however, metaousia), who believed that the words of consecration, "This is my body" were literally true of the bread, but not that this demanded the makeup of bread to disappear from it physically—it was a change by God of what the thing now is.
St. Cyril of Jerusalem's words sum this belief up quite well (Catechetical Lectures, 22):
For you have just heard him say distinctly, That our Lord Jesus Christ in the night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks He broke it, and gave to His disciples, saying, Take, eat, this is My Body: and having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, Take, drink, this is My Blood. Since then He Himself declared and said of the Bread, This is My Body, who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has Himself affirmed and said, This is My Blood, who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood? ... Consider therefore the Bread and the Wine not as bare elements, for they are, according to the Lord's declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ; for even though sense suggests this to you, yet let faith establish you. Judge not the matter from the taste, but from faith be fully assured without misgiving, that the Body and Blood of Christ have been vouchsafed to you.
As such, Catholics don't believe that Jesus' body is of one substance with the Father (but that the Son is). The Son is distinct from the body He assumed, given what this sentence just said. Nor do they even believe that Jesus is of one substance with His body (the Son and the body being conflated in such a case). They believe that the substance of the bread has become the substance of the body of Jesus, which is united to His soul and divinity (given that He is a real man with a soul, and the incarnate God).
In other words, they believe it is true when Jesus says, "This is my body" (not 'this bread' is my body; nor a game of charades).
(All accusations of 'cannabalism' will fall on deaf ears, too, when it comes to Catholics, since we know and have always known that there is no change in the accidents—the bread is the same to us before and after and to our body, physically. What has changed alone is the spiritual benefit when recieved, since "God has called" (Acts 10:15; Luke 22:19) it the Bread of Life, which is "[Jesus] flesh" (John 6:51). And so it is in all but appearance.)
answered 2 hours ago
Sola Gratia
2,707617
answered 2 hours ago
Sola Gratia
2,707617
answered 2 hours ago
Sola Gratia
2,707617
answered 2 hours ago
Sola Gratia
2,707617
2,707617
Okay, so my supposition that "consubstantiation" and "transubstantiation" speak of the same thing as "same substance with the Father" is off; they speak of the body only and that in complex terms but ultimately expressing the idea of a "symbol" acting as proxy for something else?
– Ruminator
1 hour ago
Consubstantiation is not the same thing, no. Consubstantiation is the 'withizing' of something in Latin, since it means 'with the substance.' Christ's body isn't 'with' the bread, the bread becomes (changes substance) the body of Christ. Consubstantiation would be a Lutheran doctrine which says Christ is 'with' what remains bread. And once again, that the Son shares one and the same divine nature with the Father is not the same as his body being one substance with the Father. The Eucharist is not a symbol of the body of Christ in Catholicism or Orthodoxy. It is such.
– Sola Gratia
1 hour ago
I'm reminded of the Talmud where such discussions are routine. Okay, thanks.
– Ruminator
1 hour ago
@ruminator I agree that it is a bit confusing, especially since the Nicene Creed says Jesus is "Consubstantial with the Father". You might remember consubstantial be translated "One in being" (after Vatican II), but went back to being "Consubstantial" (in 2008 or thereabouts) since apparently those two ideas are not consubstantial.
– Peter Turner♦
4 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Okay, so my supposition that "consubstantiation" and "transubstantiation" speak of the same thing as "same substance with the Father" is off; they speak of the body only and that in complex terms but ultimately expressing the idea of a "symbol" acting as proxy for something else?
– Ruminator
1 hour ago
Consubstantiation is not the same thing, no. Consubstantiation is the 'withizing' of something in Latin, since it means 'with the substance.' Christ's body isn't 'with' the bread, the bread becomes (changes substance) the body of Christ. Consubstantiation would be a Lutheran doctrine which says Christ is 'with' what remains bread. And once again, that the Son shares one and the same divine nature with the Father is not the same as his body being one substance with the Father. The Eucharist is not a symbol of the body of Christ in Catholicism or Orthodoxy. It is such.
– Sola Gratia
1 hour ago
I'm reminded of the Talmud where such discussions are routine. Okay, thanks.
– Ruminator
1 hour ago
@ruminator I agree that it is a bit confusing, especially since the Nicene Creed says Jesus is "Consubstantial with the Father". You might remember consubstantial be translated "One in being" (after Vatican II), but went back to being "Consubstantial" (in 2008 or thereabouts) since apparently those two ideas are not consubstantial.
– Peter Turner♦
4 mins ago
Okay, so my supposition that "consubstantiation" and "transubstantiation" speak of the same thing as "same substance with the Father" is off; they speak of the body only and that in complex terms but ultimately expressing the idea of a "symbol" acting as proxy for something else?
– Ruminator
1 hour ago
Okay, so my supposition that "consubstantiation" and "transubstantiation" speak of the same thing as "same substance with the Father" is off; they speak of the body only and that in complex terms but ultimately expressing the idea of a "symbol" acting as proxy for something else?
– Ruminator
1 hour ago
Consubstantiation is not the same thing, no. Consubstantiation is the 'withizing' of something in Latin, since it means 'with the substance.' Christ's body isn't 'with' the bread, the bread becomes (changes substance) the body of Christ. Consubstantiation would be a Lutheran doctrine which says Christ is 'with' what remains bread. And once again, that the Son shares one and the same divine nature with the Father is not the same as his body being one substance with the Father. The Eucharist is not a symbol of the body of Christ in Catholicism or Orthodoxy. It is such.
– Sola Gratia
1 hour ago
Consubstantiation is not the same thing, no. Consubstantiation is the 'withizing' of something in Latin, since it means 'with the substance.' Christ's body isn't 'with' the bread, the bread becomes (changes substance) the body of Christ. Consubstantiation would be a Lutheran doctrine which says Christ is 'with' what remains bread. And once again, that the Son shares one and the same divine nature with the Father is not the same as his body being one substance with the Father. The Eucharist is not a symbol of the body of Christ in Catholicism or Orthodoxy. It is such.
– Sola Gratia
1 hour ago
I'm reminded of the Talmud where such discussions are routine. Okay, thanks.
– Ruminator
1 hour ago
I'm reminded of the Talmud where such discussions are routine. Okay, thanks.
– Ruminator
1 hour ago
@ruminator I agree that it is a bit confusing, especially since the Nicene Creed says Jesus is "Consubstantial with the Father". You might remember consubstantial be translated "One in being" (after Vatican II), but went back to being "Consubstantial" (in 2008 or thereabouts) since apparently those two ideas are not consubstantial.
– Peter Turner♦
4 mins ago
@ruminator I agree that it is a bit confusing, especially since the Nicene Creed says Jesus is "Consubstantial with the Father". You might remember consubstantial be translated "One in being" (after Vatican II), but went back to being "Consubstantial" (in 2008 or thereabouts) since apparently those two ideas are not consubstantial.
– Peter Turner♦
4 mins ago
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Catholics believe in transubstantiation, that the substance of the bread and wine is, after consecration, completely replaced by that of Christ's Body and Blood, respectively.
Consubstantiation (or impanation) is a heresy.
Perhaps you're confusing "consubstantiation" with "consubstantial." The latter term is used to describe that the Persons of the Holy Trinity have the same divine essence.
Do Catholics eat the substance of the Father during “communionâ€�
The substance, which immutable because God is immutable, does not perish when one receives Communion.
As St. Thomas Aquinas commentates on John 6:27:
The food that sustains the body is perishable, since it is converted into the nature of the body; but the food that sustains the spirit is not perishable, because it is not converted into the spirit; rather, the spirit is converted into its food. Hence Augustine says in his Confessions: “I am the food of the great; grow and you will eat me. But you will not change me into yourself, as you do bodily food, but you will be changed into me.â€Â
(source: this answer)
answered 16 mins ago
Geremia
17.1k21951
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up vote
1
down vote
Catholics believe in transubstantiation, that the substance of the bread and wine is, after consecration, completely replaced by that of Christ's Body and Blood, respectively.
Consubstantiation (or impanation) is a heresy.
Perhaps you're confusing "consubstantiation" with "consubstantial." The latter term is used to describe that the Persons of the Holy Trinity have the same divine essence.
Do Catholics eat the substance of the Father during “communionâ€�
The substance, which immutable because God is immutable, does not perish when one receives Communion.
As St. Thomas Aquinas commentates on John 6:27:
The food that sustains the body is perishable, since it is converted into the nature of the body; but the food that sustains the spirit is not perishable, because it is not converted into the spirit; rather, the spirit is converted into its food. Hence Augustine says in his Confessions: “I am the food of the great; grow and you will eat me. But you will not change me into yourself, as you do bodily food, but you will be changed into me.â€Â
(source: this answer)
answered 16 mins ago
Geremia
17.1k21951
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Catholics believe in transubstantiation, that the substance of the bread and wine is, after consecration, completely replaced by that of Christ's Body and Blood, respectively.
Consubstantiation (or impanation) is a heresy.
Perhaps you're confusing "consubstantiation" with "consubstantial." The latter term is used to describe that the Persons of the Holy Trinity have the same divine essence.
Do Catholics eat the substance of the Father during “communionâ€�
The substance, which immutable because God is immutable, does not perish when one receives Communion.
As St. Thomas Aquinas commentates on John 6:27:
The food that sustains the body is perishable, since it is converted into the nature of the body; but the food that sustains the spirit is not perishable, because it is not converted into the spirit; rather, the spirit is converted into its food. Hence Augustine says in his Confessions: “I am the food of the great; grow and you will eat me. But you will not change me into yourself, as you do bodily food, but you will be changed into me.â€Â
(source: this answer)
answered 16 mins ago
Geremia
17.1k21951
Catholics believe in transubstantiation, that the substance of the bread and wine is, after consecration, completely replaced by that of Christ's Body and Blood, respectively.
Consubstantiation (or impanation) is a heresy.
Perhaps you're confusing "consubstantiation" with "consubstantial." The latter term is used to describe that the Persons of the Holy Trinity have the same divine essence.
Do Catholics eat the substance of the Father during “communionâ€�
The substance, which immutable because God is immutable, does not perish when one receives Communion.
As St. Thomas Aquinas commentates on John 6:27:
The food that sustains the body is perishable, since it is converted into the nature of the body; but the food that sustains the spirit is not perishable, because it is not converted into the spirit; rather, the spirit is converted into its food. Hence Augustine says in his Confessions: “I am the food of the great; grow and you will eat me. But you will not change me into yourself, as you do bodily food, but you will be changed into me.â€Â
(source: this answer)
answered 16 mins ago
Geremia
17.1k21951
edited 10 mins ago
answered 16 mins ago
Geremia
17.1k21951
answered 16 mins ago
Geremia
17.1k21951
answered 16 mins ago
Geremia
17.1k21951
17.1k21951
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
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I'd want someone more knowledgeable with Catholic theology to confirm, but I expect the answer is that it is the divine nature of Christ the Son of God that is consubstantial with the Father, whereas it is only the human nature of Christ that is consumed in the eucharist.
– curiousdannii
2 hours ago
Also, consubstantiation is considered heresy by the Catholic Church, but is accepted by some Lutherans.
– curiousdannii
2 hours ago
Oh boy. Well I'll have to modify my question then; thanks.
– Ruminator
2 hours ago
@curiousdannii the rote answer to what the Eucharist is is that it is Jesus' "Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity" that being said, I don't know the nuanced answer to this question off-hand. Unless it's not a nuanced answer and "The Father and I are One" is the answer.
– Peter Turner♦
2 hours ago
Great question! I believe Christ is present "body soul and divinity" in the Eucharist. I'll see where this question leads.
– Joseph Hinkle
2 hours ago