Mixing
Can Pun-Pun exist in 5e?
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
in chat, today this happened:
Sir Cinnamon - There once was a DnD Player / Who wished to be best goblin slayer/ For stats he rolled dice / The results were not nice / and now he's a humble brick layer
And I thought "wait, there was Pun-Pun, the Kobold, who ascended to godhood at lvl 1 in 3.5... but..."
Can Pun-Pun be made in 5e?
dnd-5e optimization
asked 1 hour ago
Trish
8,5032768
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
in chat, today this happened:
Sir Cinnamon - There once was a DnD Player / Who wished to be best goblin slayer/ For stats he rolled dice / The results were not nice / and now he's a humble brick layer
And I thought "wait, there was Pun-Pun, the Kobold, who ascended to godhood at lvl 1 in 3.5... but..."
Can Pun-Pun be made in 5e?
dnd-5e optimization
asked 1 hour ago
Trish
8,5032768
I know what the answer is, but since I haven't got Volo's Guide to Monsters handy, I can't back it up. Hopefully, someone versed in both 3.5 and 5 can explain why, or why not. (And I could swear we had a Pun Pun question before, I'll find you a link).
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
The link in KRyan's answer is still active, from this question
– KorvinStarmast
50 mins ago
3
Is the question whether or not a character with infinite stats can be made through exploits in 5e, or whether the specific feats and classes used to make Pun-Pun in 3.5 will still interact the same way in 5e?
– Gandalfmeansme
48 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
in chat, today this happened:
Sir Cinnamon - There once was a DnD Player / Who wished to be best goblin slayer/ For stats he rolled dice / The results were not nice / and now he's a humble brick layer
And I thought "wait, there was Pun-Pun, the Kobold, who ascended to godhood at lvl 1 in 3.5... but..."
Can Pun-Pun be made in 5e?
dnd-5e optimization
asked 1 hour ago
Trish
8,5032768
in chat, today this happened:
Sir Cinnamon - There once was a DnD Player / Who wished to be best goblin slayer/ For stats he rolled dice / The results were not nice / and now he's a humble brick layer
And I thought "wait, there was Pun-Pun, the Kobold, who ascended to godhood at lvl 1 in 3.5... but..."
Can Pun-Pun be made in 5e?
dnd-5e optimization
dnd-5e optimization
asked 1 hour ago
Trish
8,5032768
asked 1 hour ago
Trish
8,5032768
asked 1 hour ago
Trish
8,5032768
asked 1 hour ago
Trish
8,5032768
asked 1 hour ago
Trish
8,5032768
8,5032768
I know what the answer is, but since I haven't got Volo's Guide to Monsters handy, I can't back it up. Hopefully, someone versed in both 3.5 and 5 can explain why, or why not. (And I could swear we had a Pun Pun question before, I'll find you a link).
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
The link in KRyan's answer is still active, from this question
– KorvinStarmast
50 mins ago
3
Is the question whether or not a character with infinite stats can be made through exploits in 5e, or whether the specific feats and classes used to make Pun-Pun in 3.5 will still interact the same way in 5e?
– Gandalfmeansme
48 mins ago
add a comment |Â
I know what the answer is, but since I haven't got Volo's Guide to Monsters handy, I can't back it up. Hopefully, someone versed in both 3.5 and 5 can explain why, or why not. (And I could swear we had a Pun Pun question before, I'll find you a link).
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
The link in KRyan's answer is still active, from this question
– KorvinStarmast
50 mins ago
3
Is the question whether or not a character with infinite stats can be made through exploits in 5e, or whether the specific feats and classes used to make Pun-Pun in 3.5 will still interact the same way in 5e?
– Gandalfmeansme
48 mins ago
I know what the answer is, but since I haven't got Volo's Guide to Monsters handy, I can't back it up. Hopefully, someone versed in both 3.5 and 5 can explain why, or why not. (And I could swear we had a Pun Pun question before, I'll find you a link).
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
I know what the answer is, but since I haven't got Volo's Guide to Monsters handy, I can't back it up. Hopefully, someone versed in both 3.5 and 5 can explain why, or why not. (And I could swear we had a Pun Pun question before, I'll find you a link).
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
The link in KRyan's answer is still active, from this question
– KorvinStarmast
50 mins ago
The link in KRyan's answer is still active, from this question
– KorvinStarmast
50 mins ago
3
3
Is the question whether or not a character with infinite stats can be made through exploits in 5e, or whether the specific feats and classes used to make Pun-Pun in 3.5 will still interact the same way in 5e?
– Gandalfmeansme
48 mins ago
Is the question whether or not a character with infinite stats can be made through exploits in 5e, or whether the specific feats and classes used to make Pun-Pun in 3.5 will still interact the same way in 5e?
– Gandalfmeansme
48 mins ago
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
up vote
7
down vote
Pun-pun relies on the very particular wording of the sarrukh’s manipulate form, the shapechange spell, and the share spells feature of familiars.
5e does not have its own printing of the sarrukh, so no wording is available to possibly abuse. The shapechange spell bars you from legendary abilities or lair actions, which manipulate form may well be. And familiars have no ability to share in your spells.
So every single factor that went into Pun-pun in 3.5e does not exist, or at least does not have crucial features. It is extremely unlikely that replacements for any of them will ever be published, either.
answered 38 mins ago
KRyan
210k24523908
Other forms of pun-pun skip out on shapechange and share spell, but require certain details to be true about Candles of Invocation and a specific demon lord (Pazuzu). They fail in very similar ways.
– Ben Barden
31 mins ago
@BenBarden Pazuzu and candles of invocation are just there to make high-level effects available to low-level characters (which is another thing 5e doesn’t really offer). And share spells is important as it gives you an unquestionably-loyal ally and duplicates your (expensive) spell effects—without it, I don’t think the Pun-pun ascension is possible solo. I suppose you could just say two wizards working together or some such, though. But shapechange, or similar (Assume Supernatural ability, master of many forms, metamorphosis), are necessary to access manipulate form.
– KRyan
27 mins ago
you don't need shared spells. You get that off of your familiar anyway. If you pick a viper familiar, it's already a scaled one, and already perfectly loyal. The thing that makes the cheese go is the ability to have two mutually loyal creatures with manipulate form that don't have the sarrukh immunity to same... and I'm pretty sure you can wangle that for one or the other of you out of Pazuzu wishes without need for shapechange cheese. If nothing else, somehow getting the wishes to spit out a temporarily dominated sarrukh should do the trick.
– Ben Barden
17 mins ago
@BenBarden The familiar needs to also use manipulate form on you, that’s kind of the whole trick: you manipulate form your familiar while it’s not a sarrukh, your familiar becomes a sarrukh and you stop being one so it can manipulate form on you, and repeat.
– KRyan
14 mins ago
"A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it." You can use manipulate form... to grant manipulate form. At that point, either you or your pet are a non-sarrukh with manipulate form. Once they recover, return the favor, and now you have it up on both and are good to go.
– Ben Barden
7 mins ago
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
7
down vote
Pun-pun relies on the very particular wording of the sarrukh’s manipulate form, the shapechange spell, and the share spells feature of familiars.
5e does not have its own printing of the sarrukh, so no wording is available to possibly abuse. The shapechange spell bars you from legendary abilities or lair actions, which manipulate form may well be. And familiars have no ability to share in your spells.
So every single factor that went into Pun-pun in 3.5e does not exist, or at least does not have crucial features. It is extremely unlikely that replacements for any of them will ever be published, either.
answered 38 mins ago
KRyan
210k24523908
Other forms of pun-pun skip out on shapechange and share spell, but require certain details to be true about Candles of Invocation and a specific demon lord (Pazuzu). They fail in very similar ways.
– Ben Barden
31 mins ago
@BenBarden Pazuzu and candles of invocation are just there to make high-level effects available to low-level characters (which is another thing 5e doesn’t really offer). And share spells is important as it gives you an unquestionably-loyal ally and duplicates your (expensive) spell effects—without it, I don’t think the Pun-pun ascension is possible solo. I suppose you could just say two wizards working together or some such, though. But shapechange, or similar (Assume Supernatural ability, master of many forms, metamorphosis), are necessary to access manipulate form.
– KRyan
27 mins ago
you don't need shared spells. You get that off of your familiar anyway. If you pick a viper familiar, it's already a scaled one, and already perfectly loyal. The thing that makes the cheese go is the ability to have two mutually loyal creatures with manipulate form that don't have the sarrukh immunity to same... and I'm pretty sure you can wangle that for one or the other of you out of Pazuzu wishes without need for shapechange cheese. If nothing else, somehow getting the wishes to spit out a temporarily dominated sarrukh should do the trick.
– Ben Barden
17 mins ago
@BenBarden The familiar needs to also use manipulate form on you, that’s kind of the whole trick: you manipulate form your familiar while it’s not a sarrukh, your familiar becomes a sarrukh and you stop being one so it can manipulate form on you, and repeat.
– KRyan
14 mins ago
"A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it." You can use manipulate form... to grant manipulate form. At that point, either you or your pet are a non-sarrukh with manipulate form. Once they recover, return the favor, and now you have it up on both and are good to go.
– Ben Barden
7 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
7
down vote
Pun-pun relies on the very particular wording of the sarrukh’s manipulate form, the shapechange spell, and the share spells feature of familiars.
5e does not have its own printing of the sarrukh, so no wording is available to possibly abuse. The shapechange spell bars you from legendary abilities or lair actions, which manipulate form may well be. And familiars have no ability to share in your spells.
So every single factor that went into Pun-pun in 3.5e does not exist, or at least does not have crucial features. It is extremely unlikely that replacements for any of them will ever be published, either.
answered 38 mins ago
KRyan
210k24523908
Other forms of pun-pun skip out on shapechange and share spell, but require certain details to be true about Candles of Invocation and a specific demon lord (Pazuzu). They fail in very similar ways.
– Ben Barden
31 mins ago
@BenBarden Pazuzu and candles of invocation are just there to make high-level effects available to low-level characters (which is another thing 5e doesn’t really offer). And share spells is important as it gives you an unquestionably-loyal ally and duplicates your (expensive) spell effects—without it, I don’t think the Pun-pun ascension is possible solo. I suppose you could just say two wizards working together or some such, though. But shapechange, or similar (Assume Supernatural ability, master of many forms, metamorphosis), are necessary to access manipulate form.
– KRyan
27 mins ago
you don't need shared spells. You get that off of your familiar anyway. If you pick a viper familiar, it's already a scaled one, and already perfectly loyal. The thing that makes the cheese go is the ability to have two mutually loyal creatures with manipulate form that don't have the sarrukh immunity to same... and I'm pretty sure you can wangle that for one or the other of you out of Pazuzu wishes without need for shapechange cheese. If nothing else, somehow getting the wishes to spit out a temporarily dominated sarrukh should do the trick.
– Ben Barden
17 mins ago
@BenBarden The familiar needs to also use manipulate form on you, that’s kind of the whole trick: you manipulate form your familiar while it’s not a sarrukh, your familiar becomes a sarrukh and you stop being one so it can manipulate form on you, and repeat.
– KRyan
14 mins ago
"A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it." You can use manipulate form... to grant manipulate form. At that point, either you or your pet are a non-sarrukh with manipulate form. Once they recover, return the favor, and now you have it up on both and are good to go.
– Ben Barden
7 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
7
down vote
up vote
7
down vote
Pun-pun relies on the very particular wording of the sarrukh’s manipulate form, the shapechange spell, and the share spells feature of familiars.
5e does not have its own printing of the sarrukh, so no wording is available to possibly abuse. The shapechange spell bars you from legendary abilities or lair actions, which manipulate form may well be. And familiars have no ability to share in your spells.
So every single factor that went into Pun-pun in 3.5e does not exist, or at least does not have crucial features. It is extremely unlikely that replacements for any of them will ever be published, either.
answered 38 mins ago
KRyan
210k24523908
Pun-pun relies on the very particular wording of the sarrukh’s manipulate form, the shapechange spell, and the share spells feature of familiars.
5e does not have its own printing of the sarrukh, so no wording is available to possibly abuse. The shapechange spell bars you from legendary abilities or lair actions, which manipulate form may well be. And familiars have no ability to share in your spells.
So every single factor that went into Pun-pun in 3.5e does not exist, or at least does not have crucial features. It is extremely unlikely that replacements for any of them will ever be published, either.
answered 38 mins ago
KRyan
210k24523908
answered 38 mins ago
KRyan
210k24523908
answered 38 mins ago
KRyan
210k24523908
answered 38 mins ago
KRyan
210k24523908
210k24523908
Other forms of pun-pun skip out on shapechange and share spell, but require certain details to be true about Candles of Invocation and a specific demon lord (Pazuzu). They fail in very similar ways.
– Ben Barden
31 mins ago
@BenBarden Pazuzu and candles of invocation are just there to make high-level effects available to low-level characters (which is another thing 5e doesn’t really offer). And share spells is important as it gives you an unquestionably-loyal ally and duplicates your (expensive) spell effects—without it, I don’t think the Pun-pun ascension is possible solo. I suppose you could just say two wizards working together or some such, though. But shapechange, or similar (Assume Supernatural ability, master of many forms, metamorphosis), are necessary to access manipulate form.
– KRyan
27 mins ago
you don't need shared spells. You get that off of your familiar anyway. If you pick a viper familiar, it's already a scaled one, and already perfectly loyal. The thing that makes the cheese go is the ability to have two mutually loyal creatures with manipulate form that don't have the sarrukh immunity to same... and I'm pretty sure you can wangle that for one or the other of you out of Pazuzu wishes without need for shapechange cheese. If nothing else, somehow getting the wishes to spit out a temporarily dominated sarrukh should do the trick.
– Ben Barden
17 mins ago
@BenBarden The familiar needs to also use manipulate form on you, that’s kind of the whole trick: you manipulate form your familiar while it’s not a sarrukh, your familiar becomes a sarrukh and you stop being one so it can manipulate form on you, and repeat.
– KRyan
14 mins ago
"A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it." You can use manipulate form... to grant manipulate form. At that point, either you or your pet are a non-sarrukh with manipulate form. Once they recover, return the favor, and now you have it up on both and are good to go.
– Ben Barden
7 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Other forms of pun-pun skip out on shapechange and share spell, but require certain details to be true about Candles of Invocation and a specific demon lord (Pazuzu). They fail in very similar ways.
– Ben Barden
31 mins ago
@BenBarden Pazuzu and candles of invocation are just there to make high-level effects available to low-level characters (which is another thing 5e doesn’t really offer). And share spells is important as it gives you an unquestionably-loyal ally and duplicates your (expensive) spell effects—without it, I don’t think the Pun-pun ascension is possible solo. I suppose you could just say two wizards working together or some such, though. But shapechange, or similar (Assume Supernatural ability, master of many forms, metamorphosis), are necessary to access manipulate form.
– KRyan
27 mins ago
you don't need shared spells. You get that off of your familiar anyway. If you pick a viper familiar, it's already a scaled one, and already perfectly loyal. The thing that makes the cheese go is the ability to have two mutually loyal creatures with manipulate form that don't have the sarrukh immunity to same... and I'm pretty sure you can wangle that for one or the other of you out of Pazuzu wishes without need for shapechange cheese. If nothing else, somehow getting the wishes to spit out a temporarily dominated sarrukh should do the trick.
– Ben Barden
17 mins ago
@BenBarden The familiar needs to also use manipulate form on you, that’s kind of the whole trick: you manipulate form your familiar while it’s not a sarrukh, your familiar becomes a sarrukh and you stop being one so it can manipulate form on you, and repeat.
– KRyan
14 mins ago
"A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it." You can use manipulate form... to grant manipulate form. At that point, either you or your pet are a non-sarrukh with manipulate form. Once they recover, return the favor, and now you have it up on both and are good to go.
– Ben Barden
7 mins ago
Other forms of pun-pun skip out on shapechange and share spell, but require certain details to be true about Candles of Invocation and a specific demon lord (Pazuzu). They fail in very similar ways.
– Ben Barden
31 mins ago
Other forms of pun-pun skip out on shapechange and share spell, but require certain details to be true about Candles of Invocation and a specific demon lord (Pazuzu). They fail in very similar ways.
– Ben Barden
31 mins ago
@BenBarden Pazuzu and candles of invocation are just there to make high-level effects available to low-level characters (which is another thing 5e doesn’t really offer). And share spells is important as it gives you an unquestionably-loyal ally and duplicates your (expensive) spell effects—without it, I don’t think the Pun-pun ascension is possible solo. I suppose you could just say two wizards working together or some such, though. But shapechange, or similar (Assume Supernatural ability, master of many forms, metamorphosis), are necessary to access manipulate form.
– KRyan
27 mins ago
@BenBarden Pazuzu and candles of invocation are just there to make high-level effects available to low-level characters (which is another thing 5e doesn’t really offer). And share spells is important as it gives you an unquestionably-loyal ally and duplicates your (expensive) spell effects—without it, I don’t think the Pun-pun ascension is possible solo. I suppose you could just say two wizards working together or some such, though. But shapechange, or similar (Assume Supernatural ability, master of many forms, metamorphosis), are necessary to access manipulate form.
– KRyan
27 mins ago
you don't need shared spells. You get that off of your familiar anyway. If you pick a viper familiar, it's already a scaled one, and already perfectly loyal. The thing that makes the cheese go is the ability to have two mutually loyal creatures with manipulate form that don't have the sarrukh immunity to same... and I'm pretty sure you can wangle that for one or the other of you out of Pazuzu wishes without need for shapechange cheese. If nothing else, somehow getting the wishes to spit out a temporarily dominated sarrukh should do the trick.
– Ben Barden
17 mins ago
you don't need shared spells. You get that off of your familiar anyway. If you pick a viper familiar, it's already a scaled one, and already perfectly loyal. The thing that makes the cheese go is the ability to have two mutually loyal creatures with manipulate form that don't have the sarrukh immunity to same... and I'm pretty sure you can wangle that for one or the other of you out of Pazuzu wishes without need for shapechange cheese. If nothing else, somehow getting the wishes to spit out a temporarily dominated sarrukh should do the trick.
– Ben Barden
17 mins ago
@BenBarden The familiar needs to also use manipulate form on you, that’s kind of the whole trick: you manipulate form your familiar while it’s not a sarrukh, your familiar becomes a sarrukh and you stop being one so it can manipulate form on you, and repeat.
– KRyan
14 mins ago
@BenBarden The familiar needs to also use manipulate form on you, that’s kind of the whole trick: you manipulate form your familiar while it’s not a sarrukh, your familiar becomes a sarrukh and you stop being one so it can manipulate form on you, and repeat.
– KRyan
14 mins ago
"A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it." You can use manipulate form... to grant manipulate form. At that point, either you or your pet are a non-sarrukh with manipulate form. Once they recover, return the favor, and now you have it up on both and are good to go.
– Ben Barden
7 mins ago
"A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it." You can use manipulate form... to grant manipulate form. At that point, either you or your pet are a non-sarrukh with manipulate form. Once they recover, return the favor, and now you have it up on both and are good to go.
– Ben Barden
7 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Â
draft saved
draft discarded
Â
draft saved
draft discarded
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f133832%2fcan-pun-pun-exist-in-5e%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
I know what the answer is, but since I haven't got Volo's Guide to Monsters handy, I can't back it up. Hopefully, someone versed in both 3.5 and 5 can explain why, or why not. (And I could swear we had a Pun Pun question before, I'll find you a link).
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
The link in KRyan's answer is still active, from this question
– KorvinStarmast
50 mins ago
3
Is the question whether or not a character with infinite stats can be made through exploits in 5e, or whether the specific feats and classes used to make Pun-Pun in 3.5 will still interact the same way in 5e?
– Gandalfmeansme
48 mins ago