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Why was music such a fascination for philosophers and mathematicians alike?
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Why were ancient philosophers and mathematicians so intrigued by music? Why did philosophers like Plato, Arthur Schopenhaur, Neitsche and etc perceive it differently than other forms of art?
P. S it would be great if you could also give me some sources to read up further on this topic!
plato schopenhauer music
asked 5 hours ago
Aman Trivedi
212
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up vote
4
down vote
favorite
Why were ancient philosophers and mathematicians so intrigued by music? Why did philosophers like Plato, Arthur Schopenhaur, Neitsche and etc perceive it differently than other forms of art?
P. S it would be great if you could also give me some sources to read up further on this topic!
plato schopenhauer music
asked 5 hours ago
Aman Trivedi
212
New contributor
Aman Trivedi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
I don't have an answer but I hope someone does. We communicate with sound (words). Music may be a form of communication. Welcome to this SE!
– Frank Hubeny
5 hours ago
@FrankHubeny, we have written language. Music is hardly merely a form of communication. It is more a source of pleasure.
– rus9384
4 hours ago
2
One might argue that music submits to analysis much more readily than other forms of arts. The philosopher Jerrold Levinson puts it like this: "Intelligible music stands to literal thinking in precisely the same relation as does intelligible verbal discourse." For example, Wittgenstein related understanding music to understanding language.
– Nick R
4 hours ago
This question assumes that there is a common reason, and is a bit too broad as a result, Pythagoras, Plato, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche had very different reasons. Some are discussed under Is music just another language?
– Conifold
3 hours ago
In the modern period it became self-focused. Here I'm thinking of composers like Schoenberg. The ancients were after the mathematics in music. Morris Kline google.com/…
– Gordon
1 hour ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
4
down vote
favorite
up vote
4
down vote
favorite
Why were ancient philosophers and mathematicians so intrigued by music? Why did philosophers like Plato, Arthur Schopenhaur, Neitsche and etc perceive it differently than other forms of art?
P. S it would be great if you could also give me some sources to read up further on this topic!
plato schopenhauer music
asked 5 hours ago
Aman Trivedi
212
New contributor
Aman Trivedi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Why were ancient philosophers and mathematicians so intrigued by music? Why did philosophers like Plato, Arthur Schopenhaur, Neitsche and etc perceive it differently than other forms of art?
P. S it would be great if you could also give me some sources to read up further on this topic!
plato schopenhauer music
plato schopenhauer music
asked 5 hours ago
Aman Trivedi
212
New contributor
Aman Trivedi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 5 hours ago
Aman Trivedi
212
New contributor
Aman Trivedi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 5 hours ago
Aman Trivedi
212
New contributor
Aman Trivedi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 5 hours ago
Aman Trivedi
212
asked 5 hours ago
Aman Trivedi
212
212
New contributor
Aman Trivedi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Aman Trivedi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Aman Trivedi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
I don't have an answer but I hope someone does. We communicate with sound (words). Music may be a form of communication. Welcome to this SE!
– Frank Hubeny
5 hours ago
@FrankHubeny, we have written language. Music is hardly merely a form of communication. It is more a source of pleasure.
– rus9384
4 hours ago
2
One might argue that music submits to analysis much more readily than other forms of arts. The philosopher Jerrold Levinson puts it like this: "Intelligible music stands to literal thinking in precisely the same relation as does intelligible verbal discourse." For example, Wittgenstein related understanding music to understanding language.
– Nick R
4 hours ago
This question assumes that there is a common reason, and is a bit too broad as a result, Pythagoras, Plato, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche had very different reasons. Some are discussed under Is music just another language?
– Conifold
3 hours ago
In the modern period it became self-focused. Here I'm thinking of composers like Schoenberg. The ancients were after the mathematics in music. Morris Kline google.com/…
– Gordon
1 hour ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
I don't have an answer but I hope someone does. We communicate with sound (words). Music may be a form of communication. Welcome to this SE!
– Frank Hubeny
5 hours ago
@FrankHubeny, we have written language. Music is hardly merely a form of communication. It is more a source of pleasure.
– rus9384
4 hours ago
2
One might argue that music submits to analysis much more readily than other forms of arts. The philosopher Jerrold Levinson puts it like this: "Intelligible music stands to literal thinking in precisely the same relation as does intelligible verbal discourse." For example, Wittgenstein related understanding music to understanding language.
– Nick R
4 hours ago
This question assumes that there is a common reason, and is a bit too broad as a result, Pythagoras, Plato, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche had very different reasons. Some are discussed under Is music just another language?
– Conifold
3 hours ago
In the modern period it became self-focused. Here I'm thinking of composers like Schoenberg. The ancients were after the mathematics in music. Morris Kline google.com/…
– Gordon
1 hour ago
I don't have an answer but I hope someone does. We communicate with sound (words). Music may be a form of communication. Welcome to this SE!
– Frank Hubeny
5 hours ago
I don't have an answer but I hope someone does. We communicate with sound (words). Music may be a form of communication. Welcome to this SE!
– Frank Hubeny
5 hours ago
@FrankHubeny, we have written language. Music is hardly merely a form of communication. It is more a source of pleasure.
– rus9384
4 hours ago
@FrankHubeny, we have written language. Music is hardly merely a form of communication. It is more a source of pleasure.
– rus9384
4 hours ago
2
2
One might argue that music submits to analysis much more readily than other forms of arts. The philosopher Jerrold Levinson puts it like this: "Intelligible music stands to literal thinking in precisely the same relation as does intelligible verbal discourse." For example, Wittgenstein related understanding music to understanding language.
– Nick R
4 hours ago
One might argue that music submits to analysis much more readily than other forms of arts. The philosopher Jerrold Levinson puts it like this: "Intelligible music stands to literal thinking in precisely the same relation as does intelligible verbal discourse." For example, Wittgenstein related understanding music to understanding language.
– Nick R
4 hours ago
This question assumes that there is a common reason, and is a bit too broad as a result, Pythagoras, Plato, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche had very different reasons. Some are discussed under Is music just another language?
– Conifold
3 hours ago
This question assumes that there is a common reason, and is a bit too broad as a result, Pythagoras, Plato, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche had very different reasons. Some are discussed under Is music just another language?
– Conifold
3 hours ago
In the modern period it became self-focused. Here I'm thinking of composers like Schoenberg. The ancients were after the mathematics in music. Morris Kline google.com/…
– Gordon
1 hour ago
In the modern period it became self-focused. Here I'm thinking of composers like Schoenberg. The ancients were after the mathematics in music. Morris Kline google.com/…
– Gordon
1 hour ago
 |Â
show 1 more comment
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
1
down vote
Why restrict yourself to philosophers and mathematicians?
Lots of people are interested in music, many more than are actually interested in either of the disciplines mentioned above. And most are moved more by music than by poetry and the literary arts; and likewise, the visual or dramatic arts. Music has been of perennial interest in mankind.
Philosophers and mathematicians being part of mankind are then as likely to be interested in music but unlike most - are able to philosophise about it (or mathematise about it).
answered 2 hours ago
Mozibur Ullah
30.5k841144
This is a bit autistic. I mean it's based on limited knowledge which might be largely true for people in our own time, but not on the waters that lave the thousands of years old tradition as it comes down to us (and is us).
– Dwarf
1 hour ago
@Dwarf: If you think about it, everything is based on limited information. You should look up what the word autism means rather than turning it into an insult - for instance it doesn't mean agreeing with everybody one comes into contact with - or with you - for instance.
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
Autism is also about not taking into account contextual, subliminal clues that make up a great deal of human interaction. But what happens if one doesn't agree with the supposed and given context? I mean what's your context? What are you about? What's so great about being a dwarf?
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
It's because the ratios between the tone and the length of strings were in Greece and Inda, at a very early date, worked out. It demonstrates the connection between the mathematical things and the world of appearances. "Music is mathematics in time," rather than in space as with geometry: but the strings and their lengths are in space. Of course, on a side track: "Architecture is frozen music." is an observation that brings this into the visual metaphysics of Goethe.
There is something about this which is likely historical or empirically accurate, in Plato's Laws, concerning the method of teaching or civilizing (with music) the youth in the time prior to Plato, and in his own time. Aristotle says: Plato is a Pythagorean. Any good book on pre-Socratic philosophy or the origins of Western thought should have something on this.
answered 2 hours ago
Dwarf
52017
-1: This doesn't say why mathematicians or philosophers were interested in music but merely repeats what they said about it.
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
The "why" is the great and mysterious discovery. See the concept of thaumazein for something that touches on this "why" of the early human beings who first raised their eyes to these matters. The "why" is given also in several points of the answer. The objection is very poor, and almost simple nonsense.
– Dwarf
1 hour ago
That still isn't answering why. You're just riffing on the notion of why and wonderment = thaumazein.
– Mozibur Ullah
8 mins ago
Only disinterested objections support the answering process, or, put another way, those with a passion for the subject matter. It's a waste of time to answer people who merely fumble about and call it criticism, and so I won't answer anything more that you write.
– Dwarf
2 mins ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
1
down vote
Why restrict yourself to philosophers and mathematicians?
Lots of people are interested in music, many more than are actually interested in either of the disciplines mentioned above. And most are moved more by music than by poetry and the literary arts; and likewise, the visual or dramatic arts. Music has been of perennial interest in mankind.
Philosophers and mathematicians being part of mankind are then as likely to be interested in music but unlike most - are able to philosophise about it (or mathematise about it).
answered 2 hours ago
Mozibur Ullah
30.5k841144
This is a bit autistic. I mean it's based on limited knowledge which might be largely true for people in our own time, but not on the waters that lave the thousands of years old tradition as it comes down to us (and is us).
– Dwarf
1 hour ago
@Dwarf: If you think about it, everything is based on limited information. You should look up what the word autism means rather than turning it into an insult - for instance it doesn't mean agreeing with everybody one comes into contact with - or with you - for instance.
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
Autism is also about not taking into account contextual, subliminal clues that make up a great deal of human interaction. But what happens if one doesn't agree with the supposed and given context? I mean what's your context? What are you about? What's so great about being a dwarf?
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Why restrict yourself to philosophers and mathematicians?
Lots of people are interested in music, many more than are actually interested in either of the disciplines mentioned above. And most are moved more by music than by poetry and the literary arts; and likewise, the visual or dramatic arts. Music has been of perennial interest in mankind.
Philosophers and mathematicians being part of mankind are then as likely to be interested in music but unlike most - are able to philosophise about it (or mathematise about it).
answered 2 hours ago
Mozibur Ullah
30.5k841144
This is a bit autistic. I mean it's based on limited knowledge which might be largely true for people in our own time, but not on the waters that lave the thousands of years old tradition as it comes down to us (and is us).
– Dwarf
1 hour ago
@Dwarf: If you think about it, everything is based on limited information. You should look up what the word autism means rather than turning it into an insult - for instance it doesn't mean agreeing with everybody one comes into contact with - or with you - for instance.
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
Autism is also about not taking into account contextual, subliminal clues that make up a great deal of human interaction. But what happens if one doesn't agree with the supposed and given context? I mean what's your context? What are you about? What's so great about being a dwarf?
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Why restrict yourself to philosophers and mathematicians?
Lots of people are interested in music, many more than are actually interested in either of the disciplines mentioned above. And most are moved more by music than by poetry and the literary arts; and likewise, the visual or dramatic arts. Music has been of perennial interest in mankind.
Philosophers and mathematicians being part of mankind are then as likely to be interested in music but unlike most - are able to philosophise about it (or mathematise about it).
answered 2 hours ago
Mozibur Ullah
30.5k841144
Why restrict yourself to philosophers and mathematicians?
Lots of people are interested in music, many more than are actually interested in either of the disciplines mentioned above. And most are moved more by music than by poetry and the literary arts; and likewise, the visual or dramatic arts. Music has been of perennial interest in mankind.
Philosophers and mathematicians being part of mankind are then as likely to be interested in music but unlike most - are able to philosophise about it (or mathematise about it).
answered 2 hours ago
Mozibur Ullah
30.5k841144
answered 2 hours ago
Mozibur Ullah
30.5k841144
answered 2 hours ago
Mozibur Ullah
30.5k841144
answered 2 hours ago
Mozibur Ullah
30.5k841144
30.5k841144
This is a bit autistic. I mean it's based on limited knowledge which might be largely true for people in our own time, but not on the waters that lave the thousands of years old tradition as it comes down to us (and is us).
– Dwarf
1 hour ago
@Dwarf: If you think about it, everything is based on limited information. You should look up what the word autism means rather than turning it into an insult - for instance it doesn't mean agreeing with everybody one comes into contact with - or with you - for instance.
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
Autism is also about not taking into account contextual, subliminal clues that make up a great deal of human interaction. But what happens if one doesn't agree with the supposed and given context? I mean what's your context? What are you about? What's so great about being a dwarf?
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
This is a bit autistic. I mean it's based on limited knowledge which might be largely true for people in our own time, but not on the waters that lave the thousands of years old tradition as it comes down to us (and is us).
– Dwarf
1 hour ago
@Dwarf: If you think about it, everything is based on limited information. You should look up what the word autism means rather than turning it into an insult - for instance it doesn't mean agreeing with everybody one comes into contact with - or with you - for instance.
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
Autism is also about not taking into account contextual, subliminal clues that make up a great deal of human interaction. But what happens if one doesn't agree with the supposed and given context? I mean what's your context? What are you about? What's so great about being a dwarf?
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
This is a bit autistic. I mean it's based on limited knowledge which might be largely true for people in our own time, but not on the waters that lave the thousands of years old tradition as it comes down to us (and is us).
– Dwarf
1 hour ago
This is a bit autistic. I mean it's based on limited knowledge which might be largely true for people in our own time, but not on the waters that lave the thousands of years old tradition as it comes down to us (and is us).
– Dwarf
1 hour ago
@Dwarf: If you think about it, everything is based on limited information. You should look up what the word autism means rather than turning it into an insult - for instance it doesn't mean agreeing with everybody one comes into contact with - or with you - for instance.
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
@Dwarf: If you think about it, everything is based on limited information. You should look up what the word autism means rather than turning it into an insult - for instance it doesn't mean agreeing with everybody one comes into contact with - or with you - for instance.
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
Autism is also about not taking into account contextual, subliminal clues that make up a great deal of human interaction. But what happens if one doesn't agree with the supposed and given context? I mean what's your context? What are you about? What's so great about being a dwarf?
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
Autism is also about not taking into account contextual, subliminal clues that make up a great deal of human interaction. But what happens if one doesn't agree with the supposed and given context? I mean what's your context? What are you about? What's so great about being a dwarf?
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
It's because the ratios between the tone and the length of strings were in Greece and Inda, at a very early date, worked out. It demonstrates the connection between the mathematical things and the world of appearances. "Music is mathematics in time," rather than in space as with geometry: but the strings and their lengths are in space. Of course, on a side track: "Architecture is frozen music." is an observation that brings this into the visual metaphysics of Goethe.
There is something about this which is likely historical or empirically accurate, in Plato's Laws, concerning the method of teaching or civilizing (with music) the youth in the time prior to Plato, and in his own time. Aristotle says: Plato is a Pythagorean. Any good book on pre-Socratic philosophy or the origins of Western thought should have something on this.
answered 2 hours ago
Dwarf
52017
-1: This doesn't say why mathematicians or philosophers were interested in music but merely repeats what they said about it.
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
The "why" is the great and mysterious discovery. See the concept of thaumazein for something that touches on this "why" of the early human beings who first raised their eyes to these matters. The "why" is given also in several points of the answer. The objection is very poor, and almost simple nonsense.
– Dwarf
1 hour ago
That still isn't answering why. You're just riffing on the notion of why and wonderment = thaumazein.
– Mozibur Ullah
8 mins ago
Only disinterested objections support the answering process, or, put another way, those with a passion for the subject matter. It's a waste of time to answer people who merely fumble about and call it criticism, and so I won't answer anything more that you write.
– Dwarf
2 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
It's because the ratios between the tone and the length of strings were in Greece and Inda, at a very early date, worked out. It demonstrates the connection between the mathematical things and the world of appearances. "Music is mathematics in time," rather than in space as with geometry: but the strings and their lengths are in space. Of course, on a side track: "Architecture is frozen music." is an observation that brings this into the visual metaphysics of Goethe.
There is something about this which is likely historical or empirically accurate, in Plato's Laws, concerning the method of teaching or civilizing (with music) the youth in the time prior to Plato, and in his own time. Aristotle says: Plato is a Pythagorean. Any good book on pre-Socratic philosophy or the origins of Western thought should have something on this.
answered 2 hours ago
Dwarf
52017
-1: This doesn't say why mathematicians or philosophers were interested in music but merely repeats what they said about it.
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
The "why" is the great and mysterious discovery. See the concept of thaumazein for something that touches on this "why" of the early human beings who first raised their eyes to these matters. The "why" is given also in several points of the answer. The objection is very poor, and almost simple nonsense.
– Dwarf
1 hour ago
That still isn't answering why. You're just riffing on the notion of why and wonderment = thaumazein.
– Mozibur Ullah
8 mins ago
Only disinterested objections support the answering process, or, put another way, those with a passion for the subject matter. It's a waste of time to answer people who merely fumble about and call it criticism, and so I won't answer anything more that you write.
– Dwarf
2 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
It's because the ratios between the tone and the length of strings were in Greece and Inda, at a very early date, worked out. It demonstrates the connection between the mathematical things and the world of appearances. "Music is mathematics in time," rather than in space as with geometry: but the strings and their lengths are in space. Of course, on a side track: "Architecture is frozen music." is an observation that brings this into the visual metaphysics of Goethe.
There is something about this which is likely historical or empirically accurate, in Plato's Laws, concerning the method of teaching or civilizing (with music) the youth in the time prior to Plato, and in his own time. Aristotle says: Plato is a Pythagorean. Any good book on pre-Socratic philosophy or the origins of Western thought should have something on this.
answered 2 hours ago
Dwarf
52017
It's because the ratios between the tone and the length of strings were in Greece and Inda, at a very early date, worked out. It demonstrates the connection between the mathematical things and the world of appearances. "Music is mathematics in time," rather than in space as with geometry: but the strings and their lengths are in space. Of course, on a side track: "Architecture is frozen music." is an observation that brings this into the visual metaphysics of Goethe.
There is something about this which is likely historical or empirically accurate, in Plato's Laws, concerning the method of teaching or civilizing (with music) the youth in the time prior to Plato, and in his own time. Aristotle says: Plato is a Pythagorean. Any good book on pre-Socratic philosophy or the origins of Western thought should have something on this.
answered 2 hours ago
Dwarf
52017
answered 2 hours ago
Dwarf
52017
answered 2 hours ago
Dwarf
52017
answered 2 hours ago
Dwarf
52017
52017
-1: This doesn't say why mathematicians or philosophers were interested in music but merely repeats what they said about it.
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
The "why" is the great and mysterious discovery. See the concept of thaumazein for something that touches on this "why" of the early human beings who first raised their eyes to these matters. The "why" is given also in several points of the answer. The objection is very poor, and almost simple nonsense.
– Dwarf
1 hour ago
That still isn't answering why. You're just riffing on the notion of why and wonderment = thaumazein.
– Mozibur Ullah
8 mins ago
Only disinterested objections support the answering process, or, put another way, those with a passion for the subject matter. It's a waste of time to answer people who merely fumble about and call it criticism, and so I won't answer anything more that you write.
– Dwarf
2 mins ago
add a comment |Â
-1: This doesn't say why mathematicians or philosophers were interested in music but merely repeats what they said about it.
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
The "why" is the great and mysterious discovery. See the concept of thaumazein for something that touches on this "why" of the early human beings who first raised their eyes to these matters. The "why" is given also in several points of the answer. The objection is very poor, and almost simple nonsense.
– Dwarf
1 hour ago
That still isn't answering why. You're just riffing on the notion of why and wonderment = thaumazein.
– Mozibur Ullah
8 mins ago
Only disinterested objections support the answering process, or, put another way, those with a passion for the subject matter. It's a waste of time to answer people who merely fumble about and call it criticism, and so I won't answer anything more that you write.
– Dwarf
2 mins ago
-1: This doesn't say why mathematicians or philosophers were interested in music but merely repeats what they said about it.
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
-1: This doesn't say why mathematicians or philosophers were interested in music but merely repeats what they said about it.
– Mozibur Ullah
1 hour ago
The "why" is the great and mysterious discovery. See the concept of thaumazein for something that touches on this "why" of the early human beings who first raised their eyes to these matters. The "why" is given also in several points of the answer. The objection is very poor, and almost simple nonsense.
– Dwarf
1 hour ago
The "why" is the great and mysterious discovery. See the concept of thaumazein for something that touches on this "why" of the early human beings who first raised their eyes to these matters. The "why" is given also in several points of the answer. The objection is very poor, and almost simple nonsense.
– Dwarf
1 hour ago
That still isn't answering why. You're just riffing on the notion of why and wonderment = thaumazein.
– Mozibur Ullah
8 mins ago
That still isn't answering why. You're just riffing on the notion of why and wonderment = thaumazein.
– Mozibur Ullah
8 mins ago
Only disinterested objections support the answering process, or, put another way, those with a passion for the subject matter. It's a waste of time to answer people who merely fumble about and call it criticism, and so I won't answer anything more that you write.
– Dwarf
2 mins ago
Only disinterested objections support the answering process, or, put another way, those with a passion for the subject matter. It's a waste of time to answer people who merely fumble about and call it criticism, and so I won't answer anything more that you write.
– Dwarf
2 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Aman Trivedi is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Aman Trivedi is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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I don't have an answer but I hope someone does. We communicate with sound (words). Music may be a form of communication. Welcome to this SE!
– Frank Hubeny
5 hours ago
@FrankHubeny, we have written language. Music is hardly merely a form of communication. It is more a source of pleasure.
– rus9384
4 hours ago
2
One might argue that music submits to analysis much more readily than other forms of arts. The philosopher Jerrold Levinson puts it like this: "Intelligible music stands to literal thinking in precisely the same relation as does intelligible verbal discourse." For example, Wittgenstein related understanding music to understanding language.
– Nick R
4 hours ago
This question assumes that there is a common reason, and is a bit too broad as a result, Pythagoras, Plato, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche had very different reasons. Some are discussed under Is music just another language?
– Conifold
3 hours ago
In the modern period it became self-focused. Here I'm thinking of composers like Schoenberg. The ancients were after the mathematics in music. Morris Kline google.com/…
– Gordon
1 hour ago