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Can you use a resurrected creature's blood as the material component for the Summon Lesser Demons spell?
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up vote
8
down vote
favorite
The material component of the summon lesser demons spell is
a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours
If a creature is killed and brought back to life, could their blood (if collected before their resurrection) still be used for the material component for the spell?
dnd-5e spells spell-components
edited 16 mins ago
V2Blast
14.4k23594
asked 7 hours ago
Twiggy
465216
add a comment |Â
up vote
8
down vote
favorite
The material component of the summon lesser demons spell is
a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours
If a creature is killed and brought back to life, could their blood (if collected before their resurrection) still be used for the material component for the spell?
dnd-5e spells spell-components
edited 16 mins ago
V2Blast
14.4k23594
asked 7 hours ago
Twiggy
465216
add a comment |Â
up vote
8
down vote
favorite
up vote
8
down vote
favorite
The material component of the summon lesser demons spell is
a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours
If a creature is killed and brought back to life, could their blood (if collected before their resurrection) still be used for the material component for the spell?
dnd-5e spells spell-components
edited 16 mins ago
V2Blast
14.4k23594
asked 7 hours ago
Twiggy
465216
The material component of the summon lesser demons spell is
a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours
If a creature is killed and brought back to life, could their blood (if collected before their resurrection) still be used for the material component for the spell?
dnd-5e spells spell-components
dnd-5e spells spell-components
edited 16 mins ago
V2Blast
14.4k23594
asked 7 hours ago
Twiggy
465216
edited 16 mins ago
V2Blast
14.4k23594
asked 7 hours ago
Twiggy
465216
edited 16 mins ago
V2Blast
14.4k23594
edited 16 mins ago
V2Blast
14.4k23594
edited 16 mins ago
V2Blast
14.4k23594
14.4k23594
asked 7 hours ago
Twiggy
465216
asked 7 hours ago
Twiggy
465216
asked 7 hours ago
Twiggy
465216
465216
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
up vote
9
down vote
By the letter of the rules, it would work.
The material component is:
a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours
The blood has to meet the condition of being from a humanoid who was killed within the past 24 hours, regardless of the current condition of the humanoid or the time of collection.
By the spirit of the rules, it seems unlikely to work.
What's the point of the material component in this case? The blood is used 1) as part of the casting but also 2) to paint a circle that acts as a barrier to contain the otherwise hostile demons.
Effectively, the caster has to be willing to kill someone (either directly or by proxy) in order to summon the demons and to be protected from them. The caster is trading someone else's life for their own safety in order to summon "incarnation[s] of chaos and evil" (as the demons are described in the bestiary of Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes).
It seems obvious to me that the caster has to commit an evil act to finagle a benefit from the spell. Killing for the purpose of summoning evil creatures to do evil things should be an unambiguously selfish and evil act, but a kill-and-resurrect method of acquiring the blood (possibly even from a consensual blood donor) would seem to go against the spirit of that commitment to evil. This seems like a way to have your demon cake and eat it too.
As a DM, I would rule that the spell fizzles because the blood provided failed to comply with the implied thematic requirement that the caster commit to their evildoing. I would consider the kill-and-resurrect method to be an exploit of a technicality of how the rules are worded in violation of how they seem to be intended.
Your mileage may vary if you think that kill-and-resurrect is chaotic evil enough to work or that the blood merely needs to have been tainted by the duress of undergoing death, but I think demons are smarter than that, given their "fiendish, subtle shrewdness" (according to MToF's overview of the demonic point of view), and that they would consider kill-and-resurrect to be too vanilla.
answered 6 hours ago
Bloodcinder
16.4k255110
1
To get around your ruling mechanically, a caster could always resurrect their victim after the summoning . . . then discussions could become convoluted. For instance, did the caster intend to do that all along, and therefore qualify as "evil lite" and not bad enough for the demons (and how would that manifest, since we don't typically nail down motivations of every act, and try to hold players to play it consistently)? Or were they truly evil, and just need the old ally back later on for unrelated reasons?
– Neil Slater
2 hours ago
I figure if you try to resurrect them after sacrificing them in a demonic ritual, you fail because they're already in Hell. The demons will not give up their payment so easily.
– Mark Wells
17 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
Yes
Summon Lesser Demon:
a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours
It does not say it has to be dead at the time of casting.
It does not even say it has to be dead at the time of collection, but I think that was the intent.
Balance Considerations
This spell is a bit weaker than Conjure Animals.
What arrives is on the same power level, as the summoned creatures have same CR. However there you have more control over what you get, and what they do.
So for balance the components of Summon Lesser Demon should be less restrictive, not more.
For me this means whatever workaround or shortcut you can take you deserve it.
answered 7 hours ago
András
22.5k881168
1
"It does not even say it has to be dead at the time of collection, but that is implied." - What if you kill them, resurrect them, and then take some blood from the now-living humanoid? Is that legal?
– Kevin
2 hours ago
@Kevin RAW yes, but I very much doubt RAI.
– András
53 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
5
down vote
Yes
It doesn't require the blood to be of a humanoid who is currently dead, only one who was killed in the past 24 hours.
answered 7 hours ago
Quadratic Wizard
19.1k367106
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
9
down vote
By the letter of the rules, it would work.
The material component is:
a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours
The blood has to meet the condition of being from a humanoid who was killed within the past 24 hours, regardless of the current condition of the humanoid or the time of collection.
By the spirit of the rules, it seems unlikely to work.
What's the point of the material component in this case? The blood is used 1) as part of the casting but also 2) to paint a circle that acts as a barrier to contain the otherwise hostile demons.
Effectively, the caster has to be willing to kill someone (either directly or by proxy) in order to summon the demons and to be protected from them. The caster is trading someone else's life for their own safety in order to summon "incarnation[s] of chaos and evil" (as the demons are described in the bestiary of Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes).
It seems obvious to me that the caster has to commit an evil act to finagle a benefit from the spell. Killing for the purpose of summoning evil creatures to do evil things should be an unambiguously selfish and evil act, but a kill-and-resurrect method of acquiring the blood (possibly even from a consensual blood donor) would seem to go against the spirit of that commitment to evil. This seems like a way to have your demon cake and eat it too.
As a DM, I would rule that the spell fizzles because the blood provided failed to comply with the implied thematic requirement that the caster commit to their evildoing. I would consider the kill-and-resurrect method to be an exploit of a technicality of how the rules are worded in violation of how they seem to be intended.
Your mileage may vary if you think that kill-and-resurrect is chaotic evil enough to work or that the blood merely needs to have been tainted by the duress of undergoing death, but I think demons are smarter than that, given their "fiendish, subtle shrewdness" (according to MToF's overview of the demonic point of view), and that they would consider kill-and-resurrect to be too vanilla.
answered 6 hours ago
Bloodcinder
16.4k255110
1
To get around your ruling mechanically, a caster could always resurrect their victim after the summoning . . . then discussions could become convoluted. For instance, did the caster intend to do that all along, and therefore qualify as "evil lite" and not bad enough for the demons (and how would that manifest, since we don't typically nail down motivations of every act, and try to hold players to play it consistently)? Or were they truly evil, and just need the old ally back later on for unrelated reasons?
– Neil Slater
2 hours ago
I figure if you try to resurrect them after sacrificing them in a demonic ritual, you fail because they're already in Hell. The demons will not give up their payment so easily.
– Mark Wells
17 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
9
down vote
By the letter of the rules, it would work.
The material component is:
a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours
The blood has to meet the condition of being from a humanoid who was killed within the past 24 hours, regardless of the current condition of the humanoid or the time of collection.
By the spirit of the rules, it seems unlikely to work.
What's the point of the material component in this case? The blood is used 1) as part of the casting but also 2) to paint a circle that acts as a barrier to contain the otherwise hostile demons.
Effectively, the caster has to be willing to kill someone (either directly or by proxy) in order to summon the demons and to be protected from them. The caster is trading someone else's life for their own safety in order to summon "incarnation[s] of chaos and evil" (as the demons are described in the bestiary of Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes).
It seems obvious to me that the caster has to commit an evil act to finagle a benefit from the spell. Killing for the purpose of summoning evil creatures to do evil things should be an unambiguously selfish and evil act, but a kill-and-resurrect method of acquiring the blood (possibly even from a consensual blood donor) would seem to go against the spirit of that commitment to evil. This seems like a way to have your demon cake and eat it too.
As a DM, I would rule that the spell fizzles because the blood provided failed to comply with the implied thematic requirement that the caster commit to their evildoing. I would consider the kill-and-resurrect method to be an exploit of a technicality of how the rules are worded in violation of how they seem to be intended.
Your mileage may vary if you think that kill-and-resurrect is chaotic evil enough to work or that the blood merely needs to have been tainted by the duress of undergoing death, but I think demons are smarter than that, given their "fiendish, subtle shrewdness" (according to MToF's overview of the demonic point of view), and that they would consider kill-and-resurrect to be too vanilla.
answered 6 hours ago
Bloodcinder
16.4k255110
1
To get around your ruling mechanically, a caster could always resurrect their victim after the summoning . . . then discussions could become convoluted. For instance, did the caster intend to do that all along, and therefore qualify as "evil lite" and not bad enough for the demons (and how would that manifest, since we don't typically nail down motivations of every act, and try to hold players to play it consistently)? Or were they truly evil, and just need the old ally back later on for unrelated reasons?
– Neil Slater
2 hours ago
I figure if you try to resurrect them after sacrificing them in a demonic ritual, you fail because they're already in Hell. The demons will not give up their payment so easily.
– Mark Wells
17 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
9
down vote
up vote
9
down vote
By the letter of the rules, it would work.
The material component is:
a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours
The blood has to meet the condition of being from a humanoid who was killed within the past 24 hours, regardless of the current condition of the humanoid or the time of collection.
By the spirit of the rules, it seems unlikely to work.
What's the point of the material component in this case? The blood is used 1) as part of the casting but also 2) to paint a circle that acts as a barrier to contain the otherwise hostile demons.
Effectively, the caster has to be willing to kill someone (either directly or by proxy) in order to summon the demons and to be protected from them. The caster is trading someone else's life for their own safety in order to summon "incarnation[s] of chaos and evil" (as the demons are described in the bestiary of Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes).
It seems obvious to me that the caster has to commit an evil act to finagle a benefit from the spell. Killing for the purpose of summoning evil creatures to do evil things should be an unambiguously selfish and evil act, but a kill-and-resurrect method of acquiring the blood (possibly even from a consensual blood donor) would seem to go against the spirit of that commitment to evil. This seems like a way to have your demon cake and eat it too.
As a DM, I would rule that the spell fizzles because the blood provided failed to comply with the implied thematic requirement that the caster commit to their evildoing. I would consider the kill-and-resurrect method to be an exploit of a technicality of how the rules are worded in violation of how they seem to be intended.
Your mileage may vary if you think that kill-and-resurrect is chaotic evil enough to work or that the blood merely needs to have been tainted by the duress of undergoing death, but I think demons are smarter than that, given their "fiendish, subtle shrewdness" (according to MToF's overview of the demonic point of view), and that they would consider kill-and-resurrect to be too vanilla.
answered 6 hours ago
Bloodcinder
16.4k255110
By the letter of the rules, it would work.
The material component is:
a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours
The blood has to meet the condition of being from a humanoid who was killed within the past 24 hours, regardless of the current condition of the humanoid or the time of collection.
By the spirit of the rules, it seems unlikely to work.
What's the point of the material component in this case? The blood is used 1) as part of the casting but also 2) to paint a circle that acts as a barrier to contain the otherwise hostile demons.
Effectively, the caster has to be willing to kill someone (either directly or by proxy) in order to summon the demons and to be protected from them. The caster is trading someone else's life for their own safety in order to summon "incarnation[s] of chaos and evil" (as the demons are described in the bestiary of Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes).
It seems obvious to me that the caster has to commit an evil act to finagle a benefit from the spell. Killing for the purpose of summoning evil creatures to do evil things should be an unambiguously selfish and evil act, but a kill-and-resurrect method of acquiring the blood (possibly even from a consensual blood donor) would seem to go against the spirit of that commitment to evil. This seems like a way to have your demon cake and eat it too.
As a DM, I would rule that the spell fizzles because the blood provided failed to comply with the implied thematic requirement that the caster commit to their evildoing. I would consider the kill-and-resurrect method to be an exploit of a technicality of how the rules are worded in violation of how they seem to be intended.
Your mileage may vary if you think that kill-and-resurrect is chaotic evil enough to work or that the blood merely needs to have been tainted by the duress of undergoing death, but I think demons are smarter than that, given their "fiendish, subtle shrewdness" (according to MToF's overview of the demonic point of view), and that they would consider kill-and-resurrect to be too vanilla.
answered 6 hours ago
Bloodcinder
16.4k255110
answered 6 hours ago
Bloodcinder
16.4k255110
answered 6 hours ago
Bloodcinder
16.4k255110
answered 6 hours ago
Bloodcinder
16.4k255110
16.4k255110
1
To get around your ruling mechanically, a caster could always resurrect their victim after the summoning . . . then discussions could become convoluted. For instance, did the caster intend to do that all along, and therefore qualify as "evil lite" and not bad enough for the demons (and how would that manifest, since we don't typically nail down motivations of every act, and try to hold players to play it consistently)? Or were they truly evil, and just need the old ally back later on for unrelated reasons?
– Neil Slater
2 hours ago
I figure if you try to resurrect them after sacrificing them in a demonic ritual, you fail because they're already in Hell. The demons will not give up their payment so easily.
– Mark Wells
17 mins ago
add a comment |Â
1
To get around your ruling mechanically, a caster could always resurrect their victim after the summoning . . . then discussions could become convoluted. For instance, did the caster intend to do that all along, and therefore qualify as "evil lite" and not bad enough for the demons (and how would that manifest, since we don't typically nail down motivations of every act, and try to hold players to play it consistently)? Or were they truly evil, and just need the old ally back later on for unrelated reasons?
– Neil Slater
2 hours ago
I figure if you try to resurrect them after sacrificing them in a demonic ritual, you fail because they're already in Hell. The demons will not give up their payment so easily.
– Mark Wells
17 mins ago
1
1
To get around your ruling mechanically, a caster could always resurrect their victim after the summoning . . . then discussions could become convoluted. For instance, did the caster intend to do that all along, and therefore qualify as "evil lite" and not bad enough for the demons (and how would that manifest, since we don't typically nail down motivations of every act, and try to hold players to play it consistently)? Or were they truly evil, and just need the old ally back later on for unrelated reasons?
– Neil Slater
2 hours ago
To get around your ruling mechanically, a caster could always resurrect their victim after the summoning . . . then discussions could become convoluted. For instance, did the caster intend to do that all along, and therefore qualify as "evil lite" and not bad enough for the demons (and how would that manifest, since we don't typically nail down motivations of every act, and try to hold players to play it consistently)? Or were they truly evil, and just need the old ally back later on for unrelated reasons?
– Neil Slater
2 hours ago
I figure if you try to resurrect them after sacrificing them in a demonic ritual, you fail because they're already in Hell. The demons will not give up their payment so easily.
– Mark Wells
17 mins ago
I figure if you try to resurrect them after sacrificing them in a demonic ritual, you fail because they're already in Hell. The demons will not give up their payment so easily.
– Mark Wells
17 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
Yes
Summon Lesser Demon:
a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours
It does not say it has to be dead at the time of casting.
It does not even say it has to be dead at the time of collection, but I think that was the intent.
Balance Considerations
This spell is a bit weaker than Conjure Animals.
What arrives is on the same power level, as the summoned creatures have same CR. However there you have more control over what you get, and what they do.
So for balance the components of Summon Lesser Demon should be less restrictive, not more.
For me this means whatever workaround or shortcut you can take you deserve it.
answered 7 hours ago
András
22.5k881168
1
"It does not even say it has to be dead at the time of collection, but that is implied." - What if you kill them, resurrect them, and then take some blood from the now-living humanoid? Is that legal?
– Kevin
2 hours ago
@Kevin RAW yes, but I very much doubt RAI.
– András
53 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
Yes
Summon Lesser Demon:
a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours
It does not say it has to be dead at the time of casting.
It does not even say it has to be dead at the time of collection, but I think that was the intent.
Balance Considerations
This spell is a bit weaker than Conjure Animals.
What arrives is on the same power level, as the summoned creatures have same CR. However there you have more control over what you get, and what they do.
So for balance the components of Summon Lesser Demon should be less restrictive, not more.
For me this means whatever workaround or shortcut you can take you deserve it.
answered 7 hours ago
András
22.5k881168
1
"It does not even say it has to be dead at the time of collection, but that is implied." - What if you kill them, resurrect them, and then take some blood from the now-living humanoid? Is that legal?
– Kevin
2 hours ago
@Kevin RAW yes, but I very much doubt RAI.
– András
53 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
up vote
6
down vote
Yes
Summon Lesser Demon:
a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours
It does not say it has to be dead at the time of casting.
It does not even say it has to be dead at the time of collection, but I think that was the intent.
Balance Considerations
This spell is a bit weaker than Conjure Animals.
What arrives is on the same power level, as the summoned creatures have same CR. However there you have more control over what you get, and what they do.
So for balance the components of Summon Lesser Demon should be less restrictive, not more.
For me this means whatever workaround or shortcut you can take you deserve it.
answered 7 hours ago
András
22.5k881168
Yes
Summon Lesser Demon:
a vial of blood from a humanoid killed within the past 24 hours
It does not say it has to be dead at the time of casting.
It does not even say it has to be dead at the time of collection, but I think that was the intent.
Balance Considerations
This spell is a bit weaker than Conjure Animals.
What arrives is on the same power level, as the summoned creatures have same CR. However there you have more control over what you get, and what they do.
So for balance the components of Summon Lesser Demon should be less restrictive, not more.
For me this means whatever workaround or shortcut you can take you deserve it.
answered 7 hours ago
András
22.5k881168
edited 43 mins ago
answered 7 hours ago
András
22.5k881168
answered 7 hours ago
András
22.5k881168
answered 7 hours ago
András
22.5k881168
22.5k881168
1
"It does not even say it has to be dead at the time of collection, but that is implied." - What if you kill them, resurrect them, and then take some blood from the now-living humanoid? Is that legal?
– Kevin
2 hours ago
@Kevin RAW yes, but I very much doubt RAI.
– András
53 mins ago
add a comment |Â
1
"It does not even say it has to be dead at the time of collection, but that is implied." - What if you kill them, resurrect them, and then take some blood from the now-living humanoid? Is that legal?
– Kevin
2 hours ago
@Kevin RAW yes, but I very much doubt RAI.
– András
53 mins ago
1
1
"It does not even say it has to be dead at the time of collection, but that is implied." - What if you kill them, resurrect them, and then take some blood from the now-living humanoid? Is that legal?
– Kevin
2 hours ago
"It does not even say it has to be dead at the time of collection, but that is implied." - What if you kill them, resurrect them, and then take some blood from the now-living humanoid? Is that legal?
– Kevin
2 hours ago
@Kevin RAW yes, but I very much doubt RAI.
– András
53 mins ago
@Kevin RAW yes, but I very much doubt RAI.
– András
53 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
5
down vote
Yes
It doesn't require the blood to be of a humanoid who is currently dead, only one who was killed in the past 24 hours.
answered 7 hours ago
Quadratic Wizard
19.1k367106
add a comment |Â
up vote
5
down vote
Yes
It doesn't require the blood to be of a humanoid who is currently dead, only one who was killed in the past 24 hours.
answered 7 hours ago
Quadratic Wizard
19.1k367106
add a comment |Â
up vote
5
down vote
up vote
5
down vote
Yes
It doesn't require the blood to be of a humanoid who is currently dead, only one who was killed in the past 24 hours.
answered 7 hours ago
Quadratic Wizard
19.1k367106
Yes
It doesn't require the blood to be of a humanoid who is currently dead, only one who was killed in the past 24 hours.
answered 7 hours ago
Quadratic Wizard
19.1k367106
answered 7 hours ago
Quadratic Wizard
19.1k367106
answered 7 hours ago
Quadratic Wizard
19.1k367106
answered 7 hours ago
Quadratic Wizard
19.1k367106
19.1k367106
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
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