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Is it possible to possess a non-humanoid creature with a combination of True Polymorph and Magic Jar?
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True polymorph says:
Creature into Creature. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target’s (or its level, if the target doesn’t have a challenge rating). The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality.
I assume it changes the creature's type as well.
Magic jar says:
Your body falls into a catatonic state as your soul leaves it and enters the container you used for the spell's material component. While your soul inhabits the container, you are aware of your surroundings as if you were in the container's space. You can't move or use reactions. The only action you can take is to project your soul up to 100 feet out of the container, either returning to your living body (and ending the spell) or attempting to possess a humanoid's body.
Question:
Is it possible to true polymorph a non-humanoid creature, wait for an hour to make changes permanent (so one doesn't break concentration), use magic jar, possess target's body and then dispel true polymorph with dispel magic thus gaining all the perks of original host's body?
I was shown it might be X-Y Problem and advised to add a little of background information.
As for now my PC has decent mental abilities but his physical attributes leave much to be desired so I was looking for a way to improve them (on par with AC and HP pool) without removing ability to cast spells and leaving his mental attributes untouched. Polymorphing into a dragon is still a thing though it does cap at CR20 Ancient Brass Dragon.
dnd-5e spells polymorph
asked Sep 6 at 9:40
AntiDrondert
43013
add a comment |Â
up vote
12
down vote
favorite
True polymorph says:
Creature into Creature. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target’s (or its level, if the target doesn’t have a challenge rating). The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality.
I assume it changes the creature's type as well.
Magic jar says:
Your body falls into a catatonic state as your soul leaves it and enters the container you used for the spell's material component. While your soul inhabits the container, you are aware of your surroundings as if you were in the container's space. You can't move or use reactions. The only action you can take is to project your soul up to 100 feet out of the container, either returning to your living body (and ending the spell) or attempting to possess a humanoid's body.
Question:
Is it possible to true polymorph a non-humanoid creature, wait for an hour to make changes permanent (so one doesn't break concentration), use magic jar, possess target's body and then dispel true polymorph with dispel magic thus gaining all the perks of original host's body?
I was shown it might be X-Y Problem and advised to add a little of background information.
As for now my PC has decent mental abilities but his physical attributes leave much to be desired so I was looking for a way to improve them (on par with AC and HP pool) without removing ability to cast spells and leaving his mental attributes untouched. Polymorphing into a dragon is still a thing though it does cap at CR20 Ancient Brass Dragon.
dnd-5e spells polymorph
asked Sep 6 at 9:40
AntiDrondert
43013
3
I removed the apology from the end of your question since I think this is a clear and well-asked question.
– NathanS
Sep 6 at 10:09
3
Related on How does Magic Jar possession actually interact with your stats?
– NautArch
Sep 6 at 14:02
Is your question specifically about the interaction between these two spells, or would you consider an answer proposing a different way to achieve the same goal valid?
– inthemanual
Sep 6 at 21:32
@inthemanual It started out as interaction between two spells. I might ask another question about achieving my goal by any other way.
– AntiDrondert
Sep 6 at 21:45
add a comment |Â
up vote
12
down vote
favorite
up vote
12
down vote
favorite
True polymorph says:
Creature into Creature. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target’s (or its level, if the target doesn’t have a challenge rating). The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality.
I assume it changes the creature's type as well.
Magic jar says:
Your body falls into a catatonic state as your soul leaves it and enters the container you used for the spell's material component. While your soul inhabits the container, you are aware of your surroundings as if you were in the container's space. You can't move or use reactions. The only action you can take is to project your soul up to 100 feet out of the container, either returning to your living body (and ending the spell) or attempting to possess a humanoid's body.
Question:
Is it possible to true polymorph a non-humanoid creature, wait for an hour to make changes permanent (so one doesn't break concentration), use magic jar, possess target's body and then dispel true polymorph with dispel magic thus gaining all the perks of original host's body?
I was shown it might be X-Y Problem and advised to add a little of background information.
As for now my PC has decent mental abilities but his physical attributes leave much to be desired so I was looking for a way to improve them (on par with AC and HP pool) without removing ability to cast spells and leaving his mental attributes untouched. Polymorphing into a dragon is still a thing though it does cap at CR20 Ancient Brass Dragon.
dnd-5e spells polymorph
asked Sep 6 at 9:40
AntiDrondert
43013
True polymorph says:
Creature into Creature. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target’s (or its level, if the target doesn’t have a challenge rating). The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality.
I assume it changes the creature's type as well.
Magic jar says:
Your body falls into a catatonic state as your soul leaves it and enters the container you used for the spell's material component. While your soul inhabits the container, you are aware of your surroundings as if you were in the container's space. You can't move or use reactions. The only action you can take is to project your soul up to 100 feet out of the container, either returning to your living body (and ending the spell) or attempting to possess a humanoid's body.
Question:
Is it possible to true polymorph a non-humanoid creature, wait for an hour to make changes permanent (so one doesn't break concentration), use magic jar, possess target's body and then dispel true polymorph with dispel magic thus gaining all the perks of original host's body?
I was shown it might be X-Y Problem and advised to add a little of background information.
As for now my PC has decent mental abilities but his physical attributes leave much to be desired so I was looking for a way to improve them (on par with AC and HP pool) without removing ability to cast spells and leaving his mental attributes untouched. Polymorphing into a dragon is still a thing though it does cap at CR20 Ancient Brass Dragon.
dnd-5e spells polymorph
asked Sep 6 at 9:40
AntiDrondert
43013
edited Sep 6 at 14:24
asked Sep 6 at 9:40
AntiDrondert
43013
asked Sep 6 at 9:40
AntiDrondert
43013
asked Sep 6 at 9:40
AntiDrondert
43013
43013
3
I removed the apology from the end of your question since I think this is a clear and well-asked question.
– NathanS
Sep 6 at 10:09
3
Related on How does Magic Jar possession actually interact with your stats?
– NautArch
Sep 6 at 14:02
Is your question specifically about the interaction between these two spells, or would you consider an answer proposing a different way to achieve the same goal valid?
– inthemanual
Sep 6 at 21:32
@inthemanual It started out as interaction between two spells. I might ask another question about achieving my goal by any other way.
– AntiDrondert
Sep 6 at 21:45
add a comment |Â
3
I removed the apology from the end of your question since I think this is a clear and well-asked question.
– NathanS
Sep 6 at 10:09
3
Related on How does Magic Jar possession actually interact with your stats?
– NautArch
Sep 6 at 14:02
Is your question specifically about the interaction between these two spells, or would you consider an answer proposing a different way to achieve the same goal valid?
– inthemanual
Sep 6 at 21:32
@inthemanual It started out as interaction between two spells. I might ask another question about achieving my goal by any other way.
– AntiDrondert
Sep 6 at 21:45
3
3
I removed the apology from the end of your question since I think this is a clear and well-asked question.
– NathanS
Sep 6 at 10:09
I removed the apology from the end of your question since I think this is a clear and well-asked question.
– NathanS
Sep 6 at 10:09
3
3
Related on How does Magic Jar possession actually interact with your stats?
– NautArch
Sep 6 at 14:02
Related on How does Magic Jar possession actually interact with your stats?
– NautArch
Sep 6 at 14:02
Is your question specifically about the interaction between these two spells, or would you consider an answer proposing a different way to achieve the same goal valid?
– inthemanual
Sep 6 at 21:32
Is your question specifically about the interaction between these two spells, or would you consider an answer proposing a different way to achieve the same goal valid?
– inthemanual
Sep 6 at 21:32
@inthemanual It started out as interaction between two spells. I might ask another question about achieving my goal by any other way.
– AntiDrondert
Sep 6 at 21:45
@inthemanual It started out as interaction between two spells. I might ask another question about achieving my goal by any other way.
– AntiDrondert
Sep 6 at 21:45
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
up vote
14
down vote
This would not work.
Unfortunately, although everything leading up to it works, including dispelling true polymorph, once your have dispelled the polymorphed creature back into it's original form, it is no longer a valid target for magic jar, and thus the spell would end.
This sage advice tweet from Jeremy Crawford suggests as much:
In #DnD, the exceptional trumps the general. (No longer being a valid target trumps condition carryover.)
The same reasoning is used for this answer to a similar question about targets of spells changing from valid to invalid after being cast.
edited Sep 6 at 10:56
David Coffron
24.6k283174
answered Sep 6 at 10:06
NathanS
14.8k365160
add a comment |Â
up vote
7
down vote
This works
While we've had Jeremy Crawford, lead designer, rule on dominate beast, that case is different as the effect is also tethered to the creature type (emphasis mine)
While the beast is charmed, you have a telepathic link with it as long as the two of you are on the same plane of existence...
In the case of magic jar, the initial possession requires a humanoid target, but the following effect only specifies creature (emphasis mine):
Once you possess a creature's body, you control it. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature...
Meanwhile, the possessed creature's soul...
This is also somewhat reinforced by Jeremy Crawford's ruling on Charm Person:
There's no rule governing what happens when a valid spell target temporarily becomes an invalid target. A good rule of thumb is that the spell is suppressed while the target is invalid
Clearly we have no specific rules clarification and need to determine whether a target is valid to use Crawford's rule of thumb here. The target for the activation of magic jar's possession is a humanoid but once the target is possessed the language used is "creature." As long as the target is a creature, the remainder of the effects are sustained as humanoid is no longer a requirement for target validity.
Credit to Tim Grant originally for his answer on a similar question.
edited Sep 6 at 21:01
Rubiksmoose
36.9k5187286
answered Sep 6 at 10:49
David Coffron
24.6k283174
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– mxyzplk♦
Sep 7 at 12:08
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Ask your DM
There is enough ambiguity in the rules and in the tweets by Crawford cited in the answers by David Coffron and NathanS that this will mostly be left up to the DM to determine if it's reasonable.
edited Sep 7 at 17:27
V2Blast
14k23493
answered Sep 6 at 13:39
NautArch
43.7k6158303
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
14
down vote
This would not work.
Unfortunately, although everything leading up to it works, including dispelling true polymorph, once your have dispelled the polymorphed creature back into it's original form, it is no longer a valid target for magic jar, and thus the spell would end.
This sage advice tweet from Jeremy Crawford suggests as much:
In #DnD, the exceptional trumps the general. (No longer being a valid target trumps condition carryover.)
The same reasoning is used for this answer to a similar question about targets of spells changing from valid to invalid after being cast.
edited Sep 6 at 10:56
David Coffron
24.6k283174
answered Sep 6 at 10:06
NathanS
14.8k365160
add a comment |Â
up vote
14
down vote
This would not work.
Unfortunately, although everything leading up to it works, including dispelling true polymorph, once your have dispelled the polymorphed creature back into it's original form, it is no longer a valid target for magic jar, and thus the spell would end.
This sage advice tweet from Jeremy Crawford suggests as much:
In #DnD, the exceptional trumps the general. (No longer being a valid target trumps condition carryover.)
The same reasoning is used for this answer to a similar question about targets of spells changing from valid to invalid after being cast.
edited Sep 6 at 10:56
David Coffron
24.6k283174
answered Sep 6 at 10:06
NathanS
14.8k365160
add a comment |Â
up vote
14
down vote
up vote
14
down vote
This would not work.
Unfortunately, although everything leading up to it works, including dispelling true polymorph, once your have dispelled the polymorphed creature back into it's original form, it is no longer a valid target for magic jar, and thus the spell would end.
This sage advice tweet from Jeremy Crawford suggests as much:
In #DnD, the exceptional trumps the general. (No longer being a valid target trumps condition carryover.)
The same reasoning is used for this answer to a similar question about targets of spells changing from valid to invalid after being cast.
edited Sep 6 at 10:56
David Coffron
24.6k283174
answered Sep 6 at 10:06
NathanS
14.8k365160
This would not work.
Unfortunately, although everything leading up to it works, including dispelling true polymorph, once your have dispelled the polymorphed creature back into it's original form, it is no longer a valid target for magic jar, and thus the spell would end.
This sage advice tweet from Jeremy Crawford suggests as much:
In #DnD, the exceptional trumps the general. (No longer being a valid target trumps condition carryover.)
The same reasoning is used for this answer to a similar question about targets of spells changing from valid to invalid after being cast.
edited Sep 6 at 10:56
David Coffron
24.6k283174
answered Sep 6 at 10:06
NathanS
14.8k365160
edited Sep 6 at 10:56
David Coffron
24.6k283174
edited Sep 6 at 10:56
David Coffron
24.6k283174
edited Sep 6 at 10:56
David Coffron
24.6k283174
24.6k283174
answered Sep 6 at 10:06
NathanS
14.8k365160
answered Sep 6 at 10:06
NathanS
14.8k365160
answered Sep 6 at 10:06
NathanS
14.8k365160
14.8k365160
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
7
down vote
This works
While we've had Jeremy Crawford, lead designer, rule on dominate beast, that case is different as the effect is also tethered to the creature type (emphasis mine)
While the beast is charmed, you have a telepathic link with it as long as the two of you are on the same plane of existence...
In the case of magic jar, the initial possession requires a humanoid target, but the following effect only specifies creature (emphasis mine):
Once you possess a creature's body, you control it. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature...
Meanwhile, the possessed creature's soul...
This is also somewhat reinforced by Jeremy Crawford's ruling on Charm Person:
There's no rule governing what happens when a valid spell target temporarily becomes an invalid target. A good rule of thumb is that the spell is suppressed while the target is invalid
Clearly we have no specific rules clarification and need to determine whether a target is valid to use Crawford's rule of thumb here. The target for the activation of magic jar's possession is a humanoid but once the target is possessed the language used is "creature." As long as the target is a creature, the remainder of the effects are sustained as humanoid is no longer a requirement for target validity.
Credit to Tim Grant originally for his answer on a similar question.
edited Sep 6 at 21:01
Rubiksmoose
36.9k5187286
answered Sep 6 at 10:49
David Coffron
24.6k283174
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– mxyzplk♦
Sep 7 at 12:08
add a comment |Â
up vote
7
down vote
This works
While we've had Jeremy Crawford, lead designer, rule on dominate beast, that case is different as the effect is also tethered to the creature type (emphasis mine)
While the beast is charmed, you have a telepathic link with it as long as the two of you are on the same plane of existence...
In the case of magic jar, the initial possession requires a humanoid target, but the following effect only specifies creature (emphasis mine):
Once you possess a creature's body, you control it. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature...
Meanwhile, the possessed creature's soul...
This is also somewhat reinforced by Jeremy Crawford's ruling on Charm Person:
There's no rule governing what happens when a valid spell target temporarily becomes an invalid target. A good rule of thumb is that the spell is suppressed while the target is invalid
Clearly we have no specific rules clarification and need to determine whether a target is valid to use Crawford's rule of thumb here. The target for the activation of magic jar's possession is a humanoid but once the target is possessed the language used is "creature." As long as the target is a creature, the remainder of the effects are sustained as humanoid is no longer a requirement for target validity.
Credit to Tim Grant originally for his answer on a similar question.
edited Sep 6 at 21:01
Rubiksmoose
36.9k5187286
answered Sep 6 at 10:49
David Coffron
24.6k283174
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– mxyzplk♦
Sep 7 at 12:08
add a comment |Â
up vote
7
down vote
up vote
7
down vote
This works
While we've had Jeremy Crawford, lead designer, rule on dominate beast, that case is different as the effect is also tethered to the creature type (emphasis mine)
While the beast is charmed, you have a telepathic link with it as long as the two of you are on the same plane of existence...
In the case of magic jar, the initial possession requires a humanoid target, but the following effect only specifies creature (emphasis mine):
Once you possess a creature's body, you control it. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature...
Meanwhile, the possessed creature's soul...
This is also somewhat reinforced by Jeremy Crawford's ruling on Charm Person:
There's no rule governing what happens when a valid spell target temporarily becomes an invalid target. A good rule of thumb is that the spell is suppressed while the target is invalid
Clearly we have no specific rules clarification and need to determine whether a target is valid to use Crawford's rule of thumb here. The target for the activation of magic jar's possession is a humanoid but once the target is possessed the language used is "creature." As long as the target is a creature, the remainder of the effects are sustained as humanoid is no longer a requirement for target validity.
Credit to Tim Grant originally for his answer on a similar question.
edited Sep 6 at 21:01
Rubiksmoose
36.9k5187286
answered Sep 6 at 10:49
David Coffron
24.6k283174
This works
While we've had Jeremy Crawford, lead designer, rule on dominate beast, that case is different as the effect is also tethered to the creature type (emphasis mine)
While the beast is charmed, you have a telepathic link with it as long as the two of you are on the same plane of existence...
In the case of magic jar, the initial possession requires a humanoid target, but the following effect only specifies creature (emphasis mine):
Once you possess a creature's body, you control it. Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature...
Meanwhile, the possessed creature's soul...
This is also somewhat reinforced by Jeremy Crawford's ruling on Charm Person:
There's no rule governing what happens when a valid spell target temporarily becomes an invalid target. A good rule of thumb is that the spell is suppressed while the target is invalid
Clearly we have no specific rules clarification and need to determine whether a target is valid to use Crawford's rule of thumb here. The target for the activation of magic jar's possession is a humanoid but once the target is possessed the language used is "creature." As long as the target is a creature, the remainder of the effects are sustained as humanoid is no longer a requirement for target validity.
Credit to Tim Grant originally for his answer on a similar question.
edited Sep 6 at 21:01
Rubiksmoose
36.9k5187286
answered Sep 6 at 10:49
David Coffron
24.6k283174
edited Sep 6 at 21:01
Rubiksmoose
36.9k5187286
edited Sep 6 at 21:01
Rubiksmoose
36.9k5187286
edited Sep 6 at 21:01
Rubiksmoose
36.9k5187286
36.9k5187286
answered Sep 6 at 10:49
David Coffron
24.6k283174
answered Sep 6 at 10:49
David Coffron
24.6k283174
answered Sep 6 at 10:49
David Coffron
24.6k283174
24.6k283174
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– mxyzplk♦
Sep 7 at 12:08
add a comment |Â
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– mxyzplk♦
Sep 7 at 12:08
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– mxyzplk♦
Sep 7 at 12:08
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– mxyzplk♦
Sep 7 at 12:08
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Ask your DM
There is enough ambiguity in the rules and in the tweets by Crawford cited in the answers by David Coffron and NathanS that this will mostly be left up to the DM to determine if it's reasonable.
edited Sep 7 at 17:27
V2Blast
14k23493
answered Sep 6 at 13:39
NautArch
43.7k6158303
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Ask your DM
There is enough ambiguity in the rules and in the tweets by Crawford cited in the answers by David Coffron and NathanS that this will mostly be left up to the DM to determine if it's reasonable.
edited Sep 7 at 17:27
V2Blast
14k23493
answered Sep 6 at 13:39
NautArch
43.7k6158303
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Ask your DM
There is enough ambiguity in the rules and in the tweets by Crawford cited in the answers by David Coffron and NathanS that this will mostly be left up to the DM to determine if it's reasonable.
edited Sep 7 at 17:27
V2Blast
14k23493
answered Sep 6 at 13:39
NautArch
43.7k6158303
Ask your DM
There is enough ambiguity in the rules and in the tweets by Crawford cited in the answers by David Coffron and NathanS that this will mostly be left up to the DM to determine if it's reasonable.
edited Sep 7 at 17:27
V2Blast
14k23493
answered Sep 6 at 13:39
NautArch
43.7k6158303
edited Sep 7 at 17:27
V2Blast
14k23493
edited Sep 7 at 17:27
V2Blast
14k23493
edited Sep 7 at 17:27
V2Blast
14k23493
14k23493
answered Sep 6 at 13:39
NautArch
43.7k6158303
answered Sep 6 at 13:39
NautArch
43.7k6158303
answered Sep 6 at 13:39
NautArch
43.7k6158303
43.7k6158303
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
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3
I removed the apology from the end of your question since I think this is a clear and well-asked question.
– NathanS
Sep 6 at 10:09
3
Related on How does Magic Jar possession actually interact with your stats?
– NautArch
Sep 6 at 14:02
Is your question specifically about the interaction between these two spells, or would you consider an answer proposing a different way to achieve the same goal valid?
– inthemanual
Sep 6 at 21:32
@inthemanual It started out as interaction between two spells. I might ask another question about achieving my goal by any other way.
– AntiDrondert
Sep 6 at 21:45