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Does modern scholarship accept an Ethiopian origin for Egyptian hieroglyphs?
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One of the most charismatic aspects of ancient Egyptian culture is their writing system.
While studying on the subject, I came across these excerpts from Diodorus Siculus' Bibliotheca Historica
Note: Ethiopia does not necessarily refer to the modern country (Abyssinia) now called by that name. Ethiopia usually referred to the Nubian peoples of Northern Sudan and Southern Egypt
(Vol. II) DIODORUS SICULUS
LIBRARY OF HISTORY
p95 Book III (beginning)
They say also that the Egyptians are colonists sent out by the
Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony.....
And the larger part of the customs of the Egyptians are, they hold, Ethiopian,
the colonists still preserving their ancient manners. For instance, the belief that their kings are gods, the very special
attention which they pay to their burials, and many other matters of a
similar nature are Ethiopian practices, while the shapes of their
statues and the forms of their letters are Ethiopian; for of the
two kinds of writing which the Egyptians have, that which is known as
"popular" (demotic) is learned by everyone, while that which is called
"sacred" is understood only by the priests of the Egyptians, who learn
it from their fathers as one of the things which are not divulged, but
among the Ethiopians everyone uses these forms of letters......
We must now speak about the Ethiopian writing which is called
hieroglyphic among the Egyptians, in order that we may omit
nothing in our discussion of their antiquities. Now it is found that
the forms of their letters take the shape of animals of every kind,
and of the members of the human body, and of implements and especially
carpenters' tools; for their writing does not express the intended
concept by means of syllables joined one to another, but by means of
the significance of the objects which have been copied and by its
figurative meaning which has been impressed upon the memory by
practice.
The word Ethiopian in Greek is derived from the word Aethiops, meaning Of the burnt face. It was a generic term for black skinned people similar to latin words like Niger, Hebrew words like Kush, spanish words like Moreno or Moor.
I am aware that there are some black skinned peoples who are native to Southern Egypt. They still live there even till this day; The Nubians. He may have been referring to them or so it seems.
What is the position of modern scholarship on these claims?
ancient-history ancient-egypt writing ethiopia
asked 23 hours ago
user20490
2538
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
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down vote
favorite
One of the most charismatic aspects of ancient Egyptian culture is their writing system.
While studying on the subject, I came across these excerpts from Diodorus Siculus' Bibliotheca Historica
Note: Ethiopia does not necessarily refer to the modern country (Abyssinia) now called by that name. Ethiopia usually referred to the Nubian peoples of Northern Sudan and Southern Egypt
(Vol. II) DIODORUS SICULUS
LIBRARY OF HISTORY
p95 Book III (beginning)
They say also that the Egyptians are colonists sent out by the
Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony.....
And the larger part of the customs of the Egyptians are, they hold, Ethiopian,
the colonists still preserving their ancient manners. For instance, the belief that their kings are gods, the very special
attention which they pay to their burials, and many other matters of a
similar nature are Ethiopian practices, while the shapes of their
statues and the forms of their letters are Ethiopian; for of the
two kinds of writing which the Egyptians have, that which is known as
"popular" (demotic) is learned by everyone, while that which is called
"sacred" is understood only by the priests of the Egyptians, who learn
it from their fathers as one of the things which are not divulged, but
among the Ethiopians everyone uses these forms of letters......
We must now speak about the Ethiopian writing which is called
hieroglyphic among the Egyptians, in order that we may omit
nothing in our discussion of their antiquities. Now it is found that
the forms of their letters take the shape of animals of every kind,
and of the members of the human body, and of implements and especially
carpenters' tools; for their writing does not express the intended
concept by means of syllables joined one to another, but by means of
the significance of the objects which have been copied and by its
figurative meaning which has been impressed upon the memory by
practice.
The word Ethiopian in Greek is derived from the word Aethiops, meaning Of the burnt face. It was a generic term for black skinned people similar to latin words like Niger, Hebrew words like Kush, spanish words like Moreno or Moor.
I am aware that there are some black skinned peoples who are native to Southern Egypt. They still live there even till this day; The Nubians. He may have been referring to them or so it seems.
What is the position of modern scholarship on these claims?
ancient-history ancient-egypt writing ethiopia
asked 23 hours ago
user20490
2538
Ethiopian writing is syllabaric, not hieroglyphic.
– Lucian
19 hours ago
1
As a general rule, it is a good idea that, if you're going to claim that "Some argue that ...", you also cite some examples. Vague, unsupported statements like this are often a hallmark of push questions, which are explicitly off-topic on this site.
– sempaiscuba♦
18 hours ago
@Lucian IIRC, those are not exclusive things. "Syllabaric" refers to the phonetic associations. There are several different definitions of "hieroglyphic", but it seems to be primarily based on the pictographic appearance of the glyphs, rather than what their phonetic associations are. So, for instance, both Egyptian and Mayan hieroglyphs have syllabaric elements in them (as well as logograms and alphabetic elements).
– RBarryYoung
17 hours ago
@RBarryYoung: Technically true, but the cited quotation clearly does not ascribe such meaning to the word hieroglyph; see the latter half of its last paragraph.
– Lucian
17 hours ago
2
@Lucian Your link refers to the Amharic script of Ancient Abyssinian/Axumites who live in Modern Ethiopia. When Greeks spoke about Ethiopia, they were usually refering to the Nubians (People of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan). They once had an ancient Kingdom called Soba which was renamed Meroe by Cambyses. They were referring to the Ethiopian kingdom that built the 200+ pyramids in Sudan. The ancient kingdom that worshiped at Jebel Barkal( Mountain of Amun where the Pharaohs were coronated). Jebel Barkal was the holiest site in the Nile valley. It is in Sudan!
– user20490
17 hours ago
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
6
down vote
favorite
up vote
6
down vote
favorite
One of the most charismatic aspects of ancient Egyptian culture is their writing system.
While studying on the subject, I came across these excerpts from Diodorus Siculus' Bibliotheca Historica
Note: Ethiopia does not necessarily refer to the modern country (Abyssinia) now called by that name. Ethiopia usually referred to the Nubian peoples of Northern Sudan and Southern Egypt
(Vol. II) DIODORUS SICULUS
LIBRARY OF HISTORY
p95 Book III (beginning)
They say also that the Egyptians are colonists sent out by the
Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony.....
And the larger part of the customs of the Egyptians are, they hold, Ethiopian,
the colonists still preserving their ancient manners. For instance, the belief that their kings are gods, the very special
attention which they pay to their burials, and many other matters of a
similar nature are Ethiopian practices, while the shapes of their
statues and the forms of their letters are Ethiopian; for of the
two kinds of writing which the Egyptians have, that which is known as
"popular" (demotic) is learned by everyone, while that which is called
"sacred" is understood only by the priests of the Egyptians, who learn
it from their fathers as one of the things which are not divulged, but
among the Ethiopians everyone uses these forms of letters......
We must now speak about the Ethiopian writing which is called
hieroglyphic among the Egyptians, in order that we may omit
nothing in our discussion of their antiquities. Now it is found that
the forms of their letters take the shape of animals of every kind,
and of the members of the human body, and of implements and especially
carpenters' tools; for their writing does not express the intended
concept by means of syllables joined one to another, but by means of
the significance of the objects which have been copied and by its
figurative meaning which has been impressed upon the memory by
practice.
The word Ethiopian in Greek is derived from the word Aethiops, meaning Of the burnt face. It was a generic term for black skinned people similar to latin words like Niger, Hebrew words like Kush, spanish words like Moreno or Moor.
I am aware that there are some black skinned peoples who are native to Southern Egypt. They still live there even till this day; The Nubians. He may have been referring to them or so it seems.
What is the position of modern scholarship on these claims?
ancient-history ancient-egypt writing ethiopia
asked 23 hours ago
user20490
2538
One of the most charismatic aspects of ancient Egyptian culture is their writing system.
While studying on the subject, I came across these excerpts from Diodorus Siculus' Bibliotheca Historica
Note: Ethiopia does not necessarily refer to the modern country (Abyssinia) now called by that name. Ethiopia usually referred to the Nubian peoples of Northern Sudan and Southern Egypt
(Vol. II) DIODORUS SICULUS
LIBRARY OF HISTORY
p95 Book III (beginning)
They say also that the Egyptians are colonists sent out by the
Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony.....
And the larger part of the customs of the Egyptians are, they hold, Ethiopian,
the colonists still preserving their ancient manners. For instance, the belief that their kings are gods, the very special
attention which they pay to their burials, and many other matters of a
similar nature are Ethiopian practices, while the shapes of their
statues and the forms of their letters are Ethiopian; for of the
two kinds of writing which the Egyptians have, that which is known as
"popular" (demotic) is learned by everyone, while that which is called
"sacred" is understood only by the priests of the Egyptians, who learn
it from their fathers as one of the things which are not divulged, but
among the Ethiopians everyone uses these forms of letters......
We must now speak about the Ethiopian writing which is called
hieroglyphic among the Egyptians, in order that we may omit
nothing in our discussion of their antiquities. Now it is found that
the forms of their letters take the shape of animals of every kind,
and of the members of the human body, and of implements and especially
carpenters' tools; for their writing does not express the intended
concept by means of syllables joined one to another, but by means of
the significance of the objects which have been copied and by its
figurative meaning which has been impressed upon the memory by
practice.
The word Ethiopian in Greek is derived from the word Aethiops, meaning Of the burnt face. It was a generic term for black skinned people similar to latin words like Niger, Hebrew words like Kush, spanish words like Moreno or Moor.
I am aware that there are some black skinned peoples who are native to Southern Egypt. They still live there even till this day; The Nubians. He may have been referring to them or so it seems.
What is the position of modern scholarship on these claims?
ancient-history ancient-egypt writing ethiopia
ancient-history ancient-egypt writing ethiopia
asked 23 hours ago
user20490
2538
asked 23 hours ago
user20490
2538
edited 15 hours ago
asked 23 hours ago
user20490
2538
asked 23 hours ago
user20490
2538
asked 23 hours ago
user20490
2538
2538
Ethiopian writing is syllabaric, not hieroglyphic.
– Lucian
19 hours ago
1
As a general rule, it is a good idea that, if you're going to claim that "Some argue that ...", you also cite some examples. Vague, unsupported statements like this are often a hallmark of push questions, which are explicitly off-topic on this site.
– sempaiscuba♦
18 hours ago
@Lucian IIRC, those are not exclusive things. "Syllabaric" refers to the phonetic associations. There are several different definitions of "hieroglyphic", but it seems to be primarily based on the pictographic appearance of the glyphs, rather than what their phonetic associations are. So, for instance, both Egyptian and Mayan hieroglyphs have syllabaric elements in them (as well as logograms and alphabetic elements).
– RBarryYoung
17 hours ago
@RBarryYoung: Technically true, but the cited quotation clearly does not ascribe such meaning to the word hieroglyph; see the latter half of its last paragraph.
– Lucian
17 hours ago
2
@Lucian Your link refers to the Amharic script of Ancient Abyssinian/Axumites who live in Modern Ethiopia. When Greeks spoke about Ethiopia, they were usually refering to the Nubians (People of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan). They once had an ancient Kingdom called Soba which was renamed Meroe by Cambyses. They were referring to the Ethiopian kingdom that built the 200+ pyramids in Sudan. The ancient kingdom that worshiped at Jebel Barkal( Mountain of Amun where the Pharaohs were coronated). Jebel Barkal was the holiest site in the Nile valley. It is in Sudan!
– user20490
17 hours ago
 |Â
show 9 more comments
Ethiopian writing is syllabaric, not hieroglyphic.
– Lucian
19 hours ago
1
As a general rule, it is a good idea that, if you're going to claim that "Some argue that ...", you also cite some examples. Vague, unsupported statements like this are often a hallmark of push questions, which are explicitly off-topic on this site.
– sempaiscuba♦
18 hours ago
@Lucian IIRC, those are not exclusive things. "Syllabaric" refers to the phonetic associations. There are several different definitions of "hieroglyphic", but it seems to be primarily based on the pictographic appearance of the glyphs, rather than what their phonetic associations are. So, for instance, both Egyptian and Mayan hieroglyphs have syllabaric elements in them (as well as logograms and alphabetic elements).
– RBarryYoung
17 hours ago
@RBarryYoung: Technically true, but the cited quotation clearly does not ascribe such meaning to the word hieroglyph; see the latter half of its last paragraph.
– Lucian
17 hours ago
2
@Lucian Your link refers to the Amharic script of Ancient Abyssinian/Axumites who live in Modern Ethiopia. When Greeks spoke about Ethiopia, they were usually refering to the Nubians (People of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan). They once had an ancient Kingdom called Soba which was renamed Meroe by Cambyses. They were referring to the Ethiopian kingdom that built the 200+ pyramids in Sudan. The ancient kingdom that worshiped at Jebel Barkal( Mountain of Amun where the Pharaohs were coronated). Jebel Barkal was the holiest site in the Nile valley. It is in Sudan!
– user20490
17 hours ago
Ethiopian writing is syllabaric, not hieroglyphic.
– Lucian
19 hours ago
Ethiopian writing is syllabaric, not hieroglyphic.
– Lucian
19 hours ago
1
1
As a general rule, it is a good idea that, if you're going to claim that "Some argue that ...", you also cite some examples. Vague, unsupported statements like this are often a hallmark of push questions, which are explicitly off-topic on this site.
– sempaiscuba♦
18 hours ago
As a general rule, it is a good idea that, if you're going to claim that "Some argue that ...", you also cite some examples. Vague, unsupported statements like this are often a hallmark of push questions, which are explicitly off-topic on this site.
– sempaiscuba♦
18 hours ago
@Lucian IIRC, those are not exclusive things. "Syllabaric" refers to the phonetic associations. There are several different definitions of "hieroglyphic", but it seems to be primarily based on the pictographic appearance of the glyphs, rather than what their phonetic associations are. So, for instance, both Egyptian and Mayan hieroglyphs have syllabaric elements in them (as well as logograms and alphabetic elements).
– RBarryYoung
17 hours ago
@Lucian IIRC, those are not exclusive things. "Syllabaric" refers to the phonetic associations. There are several different definitions of "hieroglyphic", but it seems to be primarily based on the pictographic appearance of the glyphs, rather than what their phonetic associations are. So, for instance, both Egyptian and Mayan hieroglyphs have syllabaric elements in them (as well as logograms and alphabetic elements).
– RBarryYoung
17 hours ago
@RBarryYoung: Technically true, but the cited quotation clearly does not ascribe such meaning to the word hieroglyph; see the latter half of its last paragraph.
– Lucian
17 hours ago
@RBarryYoung: Technically true, but the cited quotation clearly does not ascribe such meaning to the word hieroglyph; see the latter half of its last paragraph.
– Lucian
17 hours ago
2
2
@Lucian Your link refers to the Amharic script of Ancient Abyssinian/Axumites who live in Modern Ethiopia. When Greeks spoke about Ethiopia, they were usually refering to the Nubians (People of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan). They once had an ancient Kingdom called Soba which was renamed Meroe by Cambyses. They were referring to the Ethiopian kingdom that built the 200+ pyramids in Sudan. The ancient kingdom that worshiped at Jebel Barkal( Mountain of Amun where the Pharaohs were coronated). Jebel Barkal was the holiest site in the Nile valley. It is in Sudan!
– user20490
17 hours ago
@Lucian Your link refers to the Amharic script of Ancient Abyssinian/Axumites who live in Modern Ethiopia. When Greeks spoke about Ethiopia, they were usually refering to the Nubians (People of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan). They once had an ancient Kingdom called Soba which was renamed Meroe by Cambyses. They were referring to the Ethiopian kingdom that built the 200+ pyramids in Sudan. The ancient kingdom that worshiped at Jebel Barkal( Mountain of Amun where the Pharaohs were coronated). Jebel Barkal was the holiest site in the Nile valley. It is in Sudan!
– user20490
17 hours ago
 |Â
show 9 more comments
2 Answers
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The short answer is no. Although the origins of hieroglyphic writing are disputed to some extent, modern scholarship leans towards the idea that it developed independently in Egypt, and "no definitive determination has been made as to the origin of hieroglyphics in ancient Egypt".
In Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs, James P. Allen states:
Unlike Mesopotamian cuneiform or Chinese, whose beginnings can be
traced over several hundred years, hieroglyphic writing seems to
appear in Egypt suddenly, shortly before 3200 BC, as a complete
system. Scholars are divided in their opinions about its origins. Some
suggest that the earlier, developmental stages of hieroglyphic were
written on perishable materials, such as wood, and simply have not
survived. Others argue that the system could have been invented all at
once by an unknown genius. Although it was once thought that the idea
of writing came to Egypt from Mesopotamia, recent discoveries indicate
that writing arose first in Egypt.
Toby Wilkinson, in The Rise and fall of Ancient Egypt supports this view:
Hieroglyphs are so perfectly suited to the ancient Egyptian
language, and the individual signs so obviously reflected the Egyptians particular environment, that they must represent an indigenous development.
Wikipedia cites Geoffrey Sampson in Writing Systems: A Linguistic Introduction as favouring a possible Mesopotamian influence, saying that
came into existence a little after Sumerian script, and, probably
[were], invented under the influence of the latter
Sampson adds that it is
probable that the general idea of expressing words of a language in
writing was brought to Egypt from Sumerian Mesopotamia
but concedes that
no definitive determination has been made as to the origin of
hieroglyphics in ancient Egypt....a very credible argument can also be
made for the independent development of writing in Egypt...
In The Hieroglyphs of Ancient Egypt, Aidan Dodson concurs, stating
No one can be certain what stimulated the development of this early
script.
and adds that the idea of writing may have come from Mesopotamia, though he emphasizes the differences between the two writing systems.
No one is talking about Ethiopia or Nubians, though, and Diodorus is not the most reliable of sources on Egypt even though he spent some time there (although we should certainly be grateful for the works of his which have survived). As Pieter Geerkens points out in his comment, the Ptolemaic Egypt that Diodorus knew was quite different from the Old and Middle (and New) Kingdoms and this may have affected his understanding of the past.
CONCERNING THE EDITED QUESTION
One can only reiterate that "no definitive determination has been made as to the origin of hieroglyphics in ancient Egypt". Trying to pin down the origin of this script to a precise geographic location such as Ta Seti simply isn't possible and (as Quuxplusone's comment points out) modern borders have little meaning. Also, one cannot assume that the place at which the earliest hieroglyphs have been found is the place where they originate from. Much evidence has been destroyed / lost over time, some of which may (or indeed may not predate) the current earliest evidence we have. We just don't know, and more evidence may yet be uncovered.
On this last point, of interest is this joint Yale and Royal Museums of Art and History (Brussels) expedition. This report (2017) mentions hieroglyphs "in the northern desert hinterland of Elkab" in Upper Egypt dating back to 3250 BC. Even earlier (4000 to 3500 BC) is some rock art which, according to Yale professor John Coleman Darnell
preserves some of the earliest — and largest — signs from the
formative stages of the hieroglyphic script and provides evidence for
how the ancient Egyptians invented their unique writing system
answered 23 hours ago
Lars Bosteen
28.4k7145193
7
It might be worth noting that the Ptolemaic Egypt familiar to Siculus extended less than half as far up the Nile as either the Old Kingdom or New Kingdom. This might well have coloured his understanding of events.
– Pieter Geerkens
22 hours ago
@PieterGeerkens Thanks for pointing that out. I have edited accordingly and will try to add to this.
– Lars Bosteen
21 hours ago
So this means that modern scholarship does not accept Diodorus' claims. But that doesn't mean he was wrong, it only means that they do not have sufficient evidence to accept his position.
– user20490
19 hours ago
4
@user20490 The question you asked was "Does modern scholarship accept ...", and that's how it was answered. That does not mean that that is only because "they do not have sufficient evidence", which is a different question. In fact, there is considerable evidence against Diodorus' supposition and no evidence for it (except Diodorus himself, which is extremely weak evidence).
– RBarryYoung
17 hours ago
6
@user20490: I think Lars Bosteen's current answer conveys a clear and coherent position: "Hieroglyphs are so perfectly suited ... that they must represent an indigenous development." Your comment of 5 minutes ago allows as how maybe "Ethiopian" could mean "Northern Sudanese"... but you know that in this context "Northern Sudanese" essentially means "Southern Egyptian", right? Abu Simbel is 20 miles from the Sudanese border (drawn ca. 1899). Arguing over whether it was indigenous Egyptians or indigenous North-Sudanese who invented hieroglyphs seems like anachronistic hair-splitting to me.
– Quuxplusone
14 hours ago
 |Â
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The earliest evidence for Egyptian writing as writing (used to record language) goes back to circa 3250 BC, in the city of Abydos. Traces of earlier symbol use in an accounting context (e.g., cylinder seals) have also been found going back to about 3800 BC, indicating a gradual transformation of symbolic markings into an actual writing system. See here for a recent summary.
So it's pretty clear that the Egyptian writing system was developed in Egypt; some scholars argue that it may have been inspired by the slightly earlier example of Sumerian cuneiform (or the accounting-symbol precursors of cuneiform).
As far as I can tell, the earliest evidence for writing in Kush (the usual name for the ancient kingdom immediately south of Egypt and plausibly what the ancient Greeks meant by "Ethiopia") is the use of recognizably Egyptian hieroglyphics and demotic in the Napatan period (circa 800-590 BC), possibly as a result of Egypt's conquest and occupation of Kush in the preceding centuries (from the 16th C BC down to the disintegration of the Egyptian New Kingdom around 1070 BC, after which Kush became independent again). Later, the Meroitic script emerged, sometime prior to the 2nd C BC, when the first known Meroitic inscriptions were made.
You should keep in mind that Diodorus Siculus visited Egypt in the 1st Century BC as a tourist, more or less. There's no evidence he learned Egyptian, let alone that he learned to read Egyptian (hieroglyphic or demotic) and then tried reading any ancient inscriptions. He's also notorious for apparently not having bothered to use the work of Manetho, a fairly authoritative history written (in Greek) by an actual Egyptian about two centuries earlier.
A wild speculation: in the 740s BC, the ruler of Kush was able to conquer most of Egypt, establishing what's known as the 25th dynasty, which ruled Egypt until the Neo-Assyrian Empire invaded circa 670 BC. It is perhaps possible that what Diodorus Siculus is relating is based on a garbled memory of the Kushite conquest and the 25th dynasty.
answered 1 hour ago
Peter Erwin
1,885516
But Herodotus suggested something similar. He said the Egyptians were "Melanchroes with ulotrichous hair". The above is translated as "Black skinned and Woolly haired". The black skin is the mark of the Ethiopian. Ethiopians were likely the Majority in the 2nd of Egypt's seven social castes. This was the warrior caste (Medjay) of Eastern Sudan. So it may be that the Egyptians and Ethiopians were similar in phenotype, and could be confused for each other especially in Upper Egypt.
– user20490
52 mins ago
@user20490 What do Herodotus' descriptions of Egypt & Egyptians in the fifth century BCE have to do with the origin of Egyptian hieroglyphs almost three millennia earlier?
– sempaiscuba♦
6 mins ago
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
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active
oldest
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active
oldest
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up vote
12
down vote
The short answer is no. Although the origins of hieroglyphic writing are disputed to some extent, modern scholarship leans towards the idea that it developed independently in Egypt, and "no definitive determination has been made as to the origin of hieroglyphics in ancient Egypt".
In Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs, James P. Allen states:
Unlike Mesopotamian cuneiform or Chinese, whose beginnings can be
traced over several hundred years, hieroglyphic writing seems to
appear in Egypt suddenly, shortly before 3200 BC, as a complete
system. Scholars are divided in their opinions about its origins. Some
suggest that the earlier, developmental stages of hieroglyphic were
written on perishable materials, such as wood, and simply have not
survived. Others argue that the system could have been invented all at
once by an unknown genius. Although it was once thought that the idea
of writing came to Egypt from Mesopotamia, recent discoveries indicate
that writing arose first in Egypt.
Toby Wilkinson, in The Rise and fall of Ancient Egypt supports this view:
Hieroglyphs are so perfectly suited to the ancient Egyptian
language, and the individual signs so obviously reflected the Egyptians particular environment, that they must represent an indigenous development.
Wikipedia cites Geoffrey Sampson in Writing Systems: A Linguistic Introduction as favouring a possible Mesopotamian influence, saying that
came into existence a little after Sumerian script, and, probably
[were], invented under the influence of the latter
Sampson adds that it is
probable that the general idea of expressing words of a language in
writing was brought to Egypt from Sumerian Mesopotamia
but concedes that
no definitive determination has been made as to the origin of
hieroglyphics in ancient Egypt....a very credible argument can also be
made for the independent development of writing in Egypt...
In The Hieroglyphs of Ancient Egypt, Aidan Dodson concurs, stating
No one can be certain what stimulated the development of this early
script.
and adds that the idea of writing may have come from Mesopotamia, though he emphasizes the differences between the two writing systems.
No one is talking about Ethiopia or Nubians, though, and Diodorus is not the most reliable of sources on Egypt even though he spent some time there (although we should certainly be grateful for the works of his which have survived). As Pieter Geerkens points out in his comment, the Ptolemaic Egypt that Diodorus knew was quite different from the Old and Middle (and New) Kingdoms and this may have affected his understanding of the past.
CONCERNING THE EDITED QUESTION
One can only reiterate that "no definitive determination has been made as to the origin of hieroglyphics in ancient Egypt". Trying to pin down the origin of this script to a precise geographic location such as Ta Seti simply isn't possible and (as Quuxplusone's comment points out) modern borders have little meaning. Also, one cannot assume that the place at which the earliest hieroglyphs have been found is the place where they originate from. Much evidence has been destroyed / lost over time, some of which may (or indeed may not predate) the current earliest evidence we have. We just don't know, and more evidence may yet be uncovered.
On this last point, of interest is this joint Yale and Royal Museums of Art and History (Brussels) expedition. This report (2017) mentions hieroglyphs "in the northern desert hinterland of Elkab" in Upper Egypt dating back to 3250 BC. Even earlier (4000 to 3500 BC) is some rock art which, according to Yale professor John Coleman Darnell
preserves some of the earliest — and largest — signs from the
formative stages of the hieroglyphic script and provides evidence for
how the ancient Egyptians invented their unique writing system
answered 23 hours ago
Lars Bosteen
28.4k7145193
7
It might be worth noting that the Ptolemaic Egypt familiar to Siculus extended less than half as far up the Nile as either the Old Kingdom or New Kingdom. This might well have coloured his understanding of events.
– Pieter Geerkens
22 hours ago
@PieterGeerkens Thanks for pointing that out. I have edited accordingly and will try to add to this.
– Lars Bosteen
21 hours ago
So this means that modern scholarship does not accept Diodorus' claims. But that doesn't mean he was wrong, it only means that they do not have sufficient evidence to accept his position.
– user20490
19 hours ago
4
@user20490 The question you asked was "Does modern scholarship accept ...", and that's how it was answered. That does not mean that that is only because "they do not have sufficient evidence", which is a different question. In fact, there is considerable evidence against Diodorus' supposition and no evidence for it (except Diodorus himself, which is extremely weak evidence).
– RBarryYoung
17 hours ago
6
@user20490: I think Lars Bosteen's current answer conveys a clear and coherent position: "Hieroglyphs are so perfectly suited ... that they must represent an indigenous development." Your comment of 5 minutes ago allows as how maybe "Ethiopian" could mean "Northern Sudanese"... but you know that in this context "Northern Sudanese" essentially means "Southern Egyptian", right? Abu Simbel is 20 miles from the Sudanese border (drawn ca. 1899). Arguing over whether it was indigenous Egyptians or indigenous North-Sudanese who invented hieroglyphs seems like anachronistic hair-splitting to me.
– Quuxplusone
14 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
12
down vote
The short answer is no. Although the origins of hieroglyphic writing are disputed to some extent, modern scholarship leans towards the idea that it developed independently in Egypt, and "no definitive determination has been made as to the origin of hieroglyphics in ancient Egypt".
In Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs, James P. Allen states:
Unlike Mesopotamian cuneiform or Chinese, whose beginnings can be
traced over several hundred years, hieroglyphic writing seems to
appear in Egypt suddenly, shortly before 3200 BC, as a complete
system. Scholars are divided in their opinions about its origins. Some
suggest that the earlier, developmental stages of hieroglyphic were
written on perishable materials, such as wood, and simply have not
survived. Others argue that the system could have been invented all at
once by an unknown genius. Although it was once thought that the idea
of writing came to Egypt from Mesopotamia, recent discoveries indicate
that writing arose first in Egypt.
Toby Wilkinson, in The Rise and fall of Ancient Egypt supports this view:
Hieroglyphs are so perfectly suited to the ancient Egyptian
language, and the individual signs so obviously reflected the Egyptians particular environment, that they must represent an indigenous development.
Wikipedia cites Geoffrey Sampson in Writing Systems: A Linguistic Introduction as favouring a possible Mesopotamian influence, saying that
came into existence a little after Sumerian script, and, probably
[were], invented under the influence of the latter
Sampson adds that it is
probable that the general idea of expressing words of a language in
writing was brought to Egypt from Sumerian Mesopotamia
but concedes that
no definitive determination has been made as to the origin of
hieroglyphics in ancient Egypt....a very credible argument can also be
made for the independent development of writing in Egypt...
In The Hieroglyphs of Ancient Egypt, Aidan Dodson concurs, stating
No one can be certain what stimulated the development of this early
script.
and adds that the idea of writing may have come from Mesopotamia, though he emphasizes the differences between the two writing systems.
No one is talking about Ethiopia or Nubians, though, and Diodorus is not the most reliable of sources on Egypt even though he spent some time there (although we should certainly be grateful for the works of his which have survived). As Pieter Geerkens points out in his comment, the Ptolemaic Egypt that Diodorus knew was quite different from the Old and Middle (and New) Kingdoms and this may have affected his understanding of the past.
CONCERNING THE EDITED QUESTION
One can only reiterate that "no definitive determination has been made as to the origin of hieroglyphics in ancient Egypt". Trying to pin down the origin of this script to a precise geographic location such as Ta Seti simply isn't possible and (as Quuxplusone's comment points out) modern borders have little meaning. Also, one cannot assume that the place at which the earliest hieroglyphs have been found is the place where they originate from. Much evidence has been destroyed / lost over time, some of which may (or indeed may not predate) the current earliest evidence we have. We just don't know, and more evidence may yet be uncovered.
On this last point, of interest is this joint Yale and Royal Museums of Art and History (Brussels) expedition. This report (2017) mentions hieroglyphs "in the northern desert hinterland of Elkab" in Upper Egypt dating back to 3250 BC. Even earlier (4000 to 3500 BC) is some rock art which, according to Yale professor John Coleman Darnell
preserves some of the earliest — and largest — signs from the
formative stages of the hieroglyphic script and provides evidence for
how the ancient Egyptians invented their unique writing system
answered 23 hours ago
Lars Bosteen
28.4k7145193
7
It might be worth noting that the Ptolemaic Egypt familiar to Siculus extended less than half as far up the Nile as either the Old Kingdom or New Kingdom. This might well have coloured his understanding of events.
– Pieter Geerkens
22 hours ago
@PieterGeerkens Thanks for pointing that out. I have edited accordingly and will try to add to this.
– Lars Bosteen
21 hours ago
So this means that modern scholarship does not accept Diodorus' claims. But that doesn't mean he was wrong, it only means that they do not have sufficient evidence to accept his position.
– user20490
19 hours ago
4
@user20490 The question you asked was "Does modern scholarship accept ...", and that's how it was answered. That does not mean that that is only because "they do not have sufficient evidence", which is a different question. In fact, there is considerable evidence against Diodorus' supposition and no evidence for it (except Diodorus himself, which is extremely weak evidence).
– RBarryYoung
17 hours ago
6
@user20490: I think Lars Bosteen's current answer conveys a clear and coherent position: "Hieroglyphs are so perfectly suited ... that they must represent an indigenous development." Your comment of 5 minutes ago allows as how maybe "Ethiopian" could mean "Northern Sudanese"... but you know that in this context "Northern Sudanese" essentially means "Southern Egyptian", right? Abu Simbel is 20 miles from the Sudanese border (drawn ca. 1899). Arguing over whether it was indigenous Egyptians or indigenous North-Sudanese who invented hieroglyphs seems like anachronistic hair-splitting to me.
– Quuxplusone
14 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
12
down vote
up vote
12
down vote
The short answer is no. Although the origins of hieroglyphic writing are disputed to some extent, modern scholarship leans towards the idea that it developed independently in Egypt, and "no definitive determination has been made as to the origin of hieroglyphics in ancient Egypt".
In Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs, James P. Allen states:
Unlike Mesopotamian cuneiform or Chinese, whose beginnings can be
traced over several hundred years, hieroglyphic writing seems to
appear in Egypt suddenly, shortly before 3200 BC, as a complete
system. Scholars are divided in their opinions about its origins. Some
suggest that the earlier, developmental stages of hieroglyphic were
written on perishable materials, such as wood, and simply have not
survived. Others argue that the system could have been invented all at
once by an unknown genius. Although it was once thought that the idea
of writing came to Egypt from Mesopotamia, recent discoveries indicate
that writing arose first in Egypt.
Toby Wilkinson, in The Rise and fall of Ancient Egypt supports this view:
Hieroglyphs are so perfectly suited to the ancient Egyptian
language, and the individual signs so obviously reflected the Egyptians particular environment, that they must represent an indigenous development.
Wikipedia cites Geoffrey Sampson in Writing Systems: A Linguistic Introduction as favouring a possible Mesopotamian influence, saying that
came into existence a little after Sumerian script, and, probably
[were], invented under the influence of the latter
Sampson adds that it is
probable that the general idea of expressing words of a language in
writing was brought to Egypt from Sumerian Mesopotamia
but concedes that
no definitive determination has been made as to the origin of
hieroglyphics in ancient Egypt....a very credible argument can also be
made for the independent development of writing in Egypt...
In The Hieroglyphs of Ancient Egypt, Aidan Dodson concurs, stating
No one can be certain what stimulated the development of this early
script.
and adds that the idea of writing may have come from Mesopotamia, though he emphasizes the differences between the two writing systems.
No one is talking about Ethiopia or Nubians, though, and Diodorus is not the most reliable of sources on Egypt even though he spent some time there (although we should certainly be grateful for the works of his which have survived). As Pieter Geerkens points out in his comment, the Ptolemaic Egypt that Diodorus knew was quite different from the Old and Middle (and New) Kingdoms and this may have affected his understanding of the past.
CONCERNING THE EDITED QUESTION
One can only reiterate that "no definitive determination has been made as to the origin of hieroglyphics in ancient Egypt". Trying to pin down the origin of this script to a precise geographic location such as Ta Seti simply isn't possible and (as Quuxplusone's comment points out) modern borders have little meaning. Also, one cannot assume that the place at which the earliest hieroglyphs have been found is the place where they originate from. Much evidence has been destroyed / lost over time, some of which may (or indeed may not predate) the current earliest evidence we have. We just don't know, and more evidence may yet be uncovered.
On this last point, of interest is this joint Yale and Royal Museums of Art and History (Brussels) expedition. This report (2017) mentions hieroglyphs "in the northern desert hinterland of Elkab" in Upper Egypt dating back to 3250 BC. Even earlier (4000 to 3500 BC) is some rock art which, according to Yale professor John Coleman Darnell
preserves some of the earliest — and largest — signs from the
formative stages of the hieroglyphic script and provides evidence for
how the ancient Egyptians invented their unique writing system
answered 23 hours ago
Lars Bosteen
28.4k7145193
The short answer is no. Although the origins of hieroglyphic writing are disputed to some extent, modern scholarship leans towards the idea that it developed independently in Egypt, and "no definitive determination has been made as to the origin of hieroglyphics in ancient Egypt".
In Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs, James P. Allen states:
Unlike Mesopotamian cuneiform or Chinese, whose beginnings can be
traced over several hundred years, hieroglyphic writing seems to
appear in Egypt suddenly, shortly before 3200 BC, as a complete
system. Scholars are divided in their opinions about its origins. Some
suggest that the earlier, developmental stages of hieroglyphic were
written on perishable materials, such as wood, and simply have not
survived. Others argue that the system could have been invented all at
once by an unknown genius. Although it was once thought that the idea
of writing came to Egypt from Mesopotamia, recent discoveries indicate
that writing arose first in Egypt.
Toby Wilkinson, in The Rise and fall of Ancient Egypt supports this view:
Hieroglyphs are so perfectly suited to the ancient Egyptian
language, and the individual signs so obviously reflected the Egyptians particular environment, that they must represent an indigenous development.
Wikipedia cites Geoffrey Sampson in Writing Systems: A Linguistic Introduction as favouring a possible Mesopotamian influence, saying that
came into existence a little after Sumerian script, and, probably
[were], invented under the influence of the latter
Sampson adds that it is
probable that the general idea of expressing words of a language in
writing was brought to Egypt from Sumerian Mesopotamia
but concedes that
no definitive determination has been made as to the origin of
hieroglyphics in ancient Egypt....a very credible argument can also be
made for the independent development of writing in Egypt...
In The Hieroglyphs of Ancient Egypt, Aidan Dodson concurs, stating
No one can be certain what stimulated the development of this early
script.
and adds that the idea of writing may have come from Mesopotamia, though he emphasizes the differences between the two writing systems.
No one is talking about Ethiopia or Nubians, though, and Diodorus is not the most reliable of sources on Egypt even though he spent some time there (although we should certainly be grateful for the works of his which have survived). As Pieter Geerkens points out in his comment, the Ptolemaic Egypt that Diodorus knew was quite different from the Old and Middle (and New) Kingdoms and this may have affected his understanding of the past.
CONCERNING THE EDITED QUESTION
One can only reiterate that "no definitive determination has been made as to the origin of hieroglyphics in ancient Egypt". Trying to pin down the origin of this script to a precise geographic location such as Ta Seti simply isn't possible and (as Quuxplusone's comment points out) modern borders have little meaning. Also, one cannot assume that the place at which the earliest hieroglyphs have been found is the place where they originate from. Much evidence has been destroyed / lost over time, some of which may (or indeed may not predate) the current earliest evidence we have. We just don't know, and more evidence may yet be uncovered.
On this last point, of interest is this joint Yale and Royal Museums of Art and History (Brussels) expedition. This report (2017) mentions hieroglyphs "in the northern desert hinterland of Elkab" in Upper Egypt dating back to 3250 BC. Even earlier (4000 to 3500 BC) is some rock art which, according to Yale professor John Coleman Darnell
preserves some of the earliest — and largest — signs from the
formative stages of the hieroglyphic script and provides evidence for
how the ancient Egyptians invented their unique writing system
answered 23 hours ago
Lars Bosteen
28.4k7145193
edited 6 hours ago
answered 23 hours ago
Lars Bosteen
28.4k7145193
answered 23 hours ago
Lars Bosteen
28.4k7145193
answered 23 hours ago
Lars Bosteen
28.4k7145193
28.4k7145193
7
It might be worth noting that the Ptolemaic Egypt familiar to Siculus extended less than half as far up the Nile as either the Old Kingdom or New Kingdom. This might well have coloured his understanding of events.
– Pieter Geerkens
22 hours ago
@PieterGeerkens Thanks for pointing that out. I have edited accordingly and will try to add to this.
– Lars Bosteen
21 hours ago
So this means that modern scholarship does not accept Diodorus' claims. But that doesn't mean he was wrong, it only means that they do not have sufficient evidence to accept his position.
– user20490
19 hours ago
4
@user20490 The question you asked was "Does modern scholarship accept ...", and that's how it was answered. That does not mean that that is only because "they do not have sufficient evidence", which is a different question. In fact, there is considerable evidence against Diodorus' supposition and no evidence for it (except Diodorus himself, which is extremely weak evidence).
– RBarryYoung
17 hours ago
6
@user20490: I think Lars Bosteen's current answer conveys a clear and coherent position: "Hieroglyphs are so perfectly suited ... that they must represent an indigenous development." Your comment of 5 minutes ago allows as how maybe "Ethiopian" could mean "Northern Sudanese"... but you know that in this context "Northern Sudanese" essentially means "Southern Egyptian", right? Abu Simbel is 20 miles from the Sudanese border (drawn ca. 1899). Arguing over whether it was indigenous Egyptians or indigenous North-Sudanese who invented hieroglyphs seems like anachronistic hair-splitting to me.
– Quuxplusone
14 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
7
It might be worth noting that the Ptolemaic Egypt familiar to Siculus extended less than half as far up the Nile as either the Old Kingdom or New Kingdom. This might well have coloured his understanding of events.
– Pieter Geerkens
22 hours ago
@PieterGeerkens Thanks for pointing that out. I have edited accordingly and will try to add to this.
– Lars Bosteen
21 hours ago
So this means that modern scholarship does not accept Diodorus' claims. But that doesn't mean he was wrong, it only means that they do not have sufficient evidence to accept his position.
– user20490
19 hours ago
4
@user20490 The question you asked was "Does modern scholarship accept ...", and that's how it was answered. That does not mean that that is only because "they do not have sufficient evidence", which is a different question. In fact, there is considerable evidence against Diodorus' supposition and no evidence for it (except Diodorus himself, which is extremely weak evidence).
– RBarryYoung
17 hours ago
6
@user20490: I think Lars Bosteen's current answer conveys a clear and coherent position: "Hieroglyphs are so perfectly suited ... that they must represent an indigenous development." Your comment of 5 minutes ago allows as how maybe "Ethiopian" could mean "Northern Sudanese"... but you know that in this context "Northern Sudanese" essentially means "Southern Egyptian", right? Abu Simbel is 20 miles from the Sudanese border (drawn ca. 1899). Arguing over whether it was indigenous Egyptians or indigenous North-Sudanese who invented hieroglyphs seems like anachronistic hair-splitting to me.
– Quuxplusone
14 hours ago
7
7
It might be worth noting that the Ptolemaic Egypt familiar to Siculus extended less than half as far up the Nile as either the Old Kingdom or New Kingdom. This might well have coloured his understanding of events.
– Pieter Geerkens
22 hours ago
It might be worth noting that the Ptolemaic Egypt familiar to Siculus extended less than half as far up the Nile as either the Old Kingdom or New Kingdom. This might well have coloured his understanding of events.
– Pieter Geerkens
22 hours ago
@PieterGeerkens Thanks for pointing that out. I have edited accordingly and will try to add to this.
– Lars Bosteen
21 hours ago
@PieterGeerkens Thanks for pointing that out. I have edited accordingly and will try to add to this.
– Lars Bosteen
21 hours ago
So this means that modern scholarship does not accept Diodorus' claims. But that doesn't mean he was wrong, it only means that they do not have sufficient evidence to accept his position.
– user20490
19 hours ago
So this means that modern scholarship does not accept Diodorus' claims. But that doesn't mean he was wrong, it only means that they do not have sufficient evidence to accept his position.
– user20490
19 hours ago
4
4
@user20490 The question you asked was "Does modern scholarship accept ...", and that's how it was answered. That does not mean that that is only because "they do not have sufficient evidence", which is a different question. In fact, there is considerable evidence against Diodorus' supposition and no evidence for it (except Diodorus himself, which is extremely weak evidence).
– RBarryYoung
17 hours ago
@user20490 The question you asked was "Does modern scholarship accept ...", and that's how it was answered. That does not mean that that is only because "they do not have sufficient evidence", which is a different question. In fact, there is considerable evidence against Diodorus' supposition and no evidence for it (except Diodorus himself, which is extremely weak evidence).
– RBarryYoung
17 hours ago
6
6
@user20490: I think Lars Bosteen's current answer conveys a clear and coherent position: "Hieroglyphs are so perfectly suited ... that they must represent an indigenous development." Your comment of 5 minutes ago allows as how maybe "Ethiopian" could mean "Northern Sudanese"... but you know that in this context "Northern Sudanese" essentially means "Southern Egyptian", right? Abu Simbel is 20 miles from the Sudanese border (drawn ca. 1899). Arguing over whether it was indigenous Egyptians or indigenous North-Sudanese who invented hieroglyphs seems like anachronistic hair-splitting to me.
– Quuxplusone
14 hours ago
@user20490: I think Lars Bosteen's current answer conveys a clear and coherent position: "Hieroglyphs are so perfectly suited ... that they must represent an indigenous development." Your comment of 5 minutes ago allows as how maybe "Ethiopian" could mean "Northern Sudanese"... but you know that in this context "Northern Sudanese" essentially means "Southern Egyptian", right? Abu Simbel is 20 miles from the Sudanese border (drawn ca. 1899). Arguing over whether it was indigenous Egyptians or indigenous North-Sudanese who invented hieroglyphs seems like anachronistic hair-splitting to me.
– Quuxplusone
14 hours ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
1
down vote
The earliest evidence for Egyptian writing as writing (used to record language) goes back to circa 3250 BC, in the city of Abydos. Traces of earlier symbol use in an accounting context (e.g., cylinder seals) have also been found going back to about 3800 BC, indicating a gradual transformation of symbolic markings into an actual writing system. See here for a recent summary.
So it's pretty clear that the Egyptian writing system was developed in Egypt; some scholars argue that it may have been inspired by the slightly earlier example of Sumerian cuneiform (or the accounting-symbol precursors of cuneiform).
As far as I can tell, the earliest evidence for writing in Kush (the usual name for the ancient kingdom immediately south of Egypt and plausibly what the ancient Greeks meant by "Ethiopia") is the use of recognizably Egyptian hieroglyphics and demotic in the Napatan period (circa 800-590 BC), possibly as a result of Egypt's conquest and occupation of Kush in the preceding centuries (from the 16th C BC down to the disintegration of the Egyptian New Kingdom around 1070 BC, after which Kush became independent again). Later, the Meroitic script emerged, sometime prior to the 2nd C BC, when the first known Meroitic inscriptions were made.
You should keep in mind that Diodorus Siculus visited Egypt in the 1st Century BC as a tourist, more or less. There's no evidence he learned Egyptian, let alone that he learned to read Egyptian (hieroglyphic or demotic) and then tried reading any ancient inscriptions. He's also notorious for apparently not having bothered to use the work of Manetho, a fairly authoritative history written (in Greek) by an actual Egyptian about two centuries earlier.
A wild speculation: in the 740s BC, the ruler of Kush was able to conquer most of Egypt, establishing what's known as the 25th dynasty, which ruled Egypt until the Neo-Assyrian Empire invaded circa 670 BC. It is perhaps possible that what Diodorus Siculus is relating is based on a garbled memory of the Kushite conquest and the 25th dynasty.
answered 1 hour ago
Peter Erwin
1,885516
But Herodotus suggested something similar. He said the Egyptians were "Melanchroes with ulotrichous hair". The above is translated as "Black skinned and Woolly haired". The black skin is the mark of the Ethiopian. Ethiopians were likely the Majority in the 2nd of Egypt's seven social castes. This was the warrior caste (Medjay) of Eastern Sudan. So it may be that the Egyptians and Ethiopians were similar in phenotype, and could be confused for each other especially in Upper Egypt.
– user20490
52 mins ago
@user20490 What do Herodotus' descriptions of Egypt & Egyptians in the fifth century BCE have to do with the origin of Egyptian hieroglyphs almost three millennia earlier?
– sempaiscuba♦
6 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
The earliest evidence for Egyptian writing as writing (used to record language) goes back to circa 3250 BC, in the city of Abydos. Traces of earlier symbol use in an accounting context (e.g., cylinder seals) have also been found going back to about 3800 BC, indicating a gradual transformation of symbolic markings into an actual writing system. See here for a recent summary.
So it's pretty clear that the Egyptian writing system was developed in Egypt; some scholars argue that it may have been inspired by the slightly earlier example of Sumerian cuneiform (or the accounting-symbol precursors of cuneiform).
As far as I can tell, the earliest evidence for writing in Kush (the usual name for the ancient kingdom immediately south of Egypt and plausibly what the ancient Greeks meant by "Ethiopia") is the use of recognizably Egyptian hieroglyphics and demotic in the Napatan period (circa 800-590 BC), possibly as a result of Egypt's conquest and occupation of Kush in the preceding centuries (from the 16th C BC down to the disintegration of the Egyptian New Kingdom around 1070 BC, after which Kush became independent again). Later, the Meroitic script emerged, sometime prior to the 2nd C BC, when the first known Meroitic inscriptions were made.
You should keep in mind that Diodorus Siculus visited Egypt in the 1st Century BC as a tourist, more or less. There's no evidence he learned Egyptian, let alone that he learned to read Egyptian (hieroglyphic or demotic) and then tried reading any ancient inscriptions. He's also notorious for apparently not having bothered to use the work of Manetho, a fairly authoritative history written (in Greek) by an actual Egyptian about two centuries earlier.
A wild speculation: in the 740s BC, the ruler of Kush was able to conquer most of Egypt, establishing what's known as the 25th dynasty, which ruled Egypt until the Neo-Assyrian Empire invaded circa 670 BC. It is perhaps possible that what Diodorus Siculus is relating is based on a garbled memory of the Kushite conquest and the 25th dynasty.
answered 1 hour ago
Peter Erwin
1,885516
But Herodotus suggested something similar. He said the Egyptians were "Melanchroes with ulotrichous hair". The above is translated as "Black skinned and Woolly haired". The black skin is the mark of the Ethiopian. Ethiopians were likely the Majority in the 2nd of Egypt's seven social castes. This was the warrior caste (Medjay) of Eastern Sudan. So it may be that the Egyptians and Ethiopians were similar in phenotype, and could be confused for each other especially in Upper Egypt.
– user20490
52 mins ago
@user20490 What do Herodotus' descriptions of Egypt & Egyptians in the fifth century BCE have to do with the origin of Egyptian hieroglyphs almost three millennia earlier?
– sempaiscuba♦
6 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
The earliest evidence for Egyptian writing as writing (used to record language) goes back to circa 3250 BC, in the city of Abydos. Traces of earlier symbol use in an accounting context (e.g., cylinder seals) have also been found going back to about 3800 BC, indicating a gradual transformation of symbolic markings into an actual writing system. See here for a recent summary.
So it's pretty clear that the Egyptian writing system was developed in Egypt; some scholars argue that it may have been inspired by the slightly earlier example of Sumerian cuneiform (or the accounting-symbol precursors of cuneiform).
As far as I can tell, the earliest evidence for writing in Kush (the usual name for the ancient kingdom immediately south of Egypt and plausibly what the ancient Greeks meant by "Ethiopia") is the use of recognizably Egyptian hieroglyphics and demotic in the Napatan period (circa 800-590 BC), possibly as a result of Egypt's conquest and occupation of Kush in the preceding centuries (from the 16th C BC down to the disintegration of the Egyptian New Kingdom around 1070 BC, after which Kush became independent again). Later, the Meroitic script emerged, sometime prior to the 2nd C BC, when the first known Meroitic inscriptions were made.
You should keep in mind that Diodorus Siculus visited Egypt in the 1st Century BC as a tourist, more or less. There's no evidence he learned Egyptian, let alone that he learned to read Egyptian (hieroglyphic or demotic) and then tried reading any ancient inscriptions. He's also notorious for apparently not having bothered to use the work of Manetho, a fairly authoritative history written (in Greek) by an actual Egyptian about two centuries earlier.
A wild speculation: in the 740s BC, the ruler of Kush was able to conquer most of Egypt, establishing what's known as the 25th dynasty, which ruled Egypt until the Neo-Assyrian Empire invaded circa 670 BC. It is perhaps possible that what Diodorus Siculus is relating is based on a garbled memory of the Kushite conquest and the 25th dynasty.
answered 1 hour ago
Peter Erwin
1,885516
The earliest evidence for Egyptian writing as writing (used to record language) goes back to circa 3250 BC, in the city of Abydos. Traces of earlier symbol use in an accounting context (e.g., cylinder seals) have also been found going back to about 3800 BC, indicating a gradual transformation of symbolic markings into an actual writing system. See here for a recent summary.
So it's pretty clear that the Egyptian writing system was developed in Egypt; some scholars argue that it may have been inspired by the slightly earlier example of Sumerian cuneiform (or the accounting-symbol precursors of cuneiform).
As far as I can tell, the earliest evidence for writing in Kush (the usual name for the ancient kingdom immediately south of Egypt and plausibly what the ancient Greeks meant by "Ethiopia") is the use of recognizably Egyptian hieroglyphics and demotic in the Napatan period (circa 800-590 BC), possibly as a result of Egypt's conquest and occupation of Kush in the preceding centuries (from the 16th C BC down to the disintegration of the Egyptian New Kingdom around 1070 BC, after which Kush became independent again). Later, the Meroitic script emerged, sometime prior to the 2nd C BC, when the first known Meroitic inscriptions were made.
You should keep in mind that Diodorus Siculus visited Egypt in the 1st Century BC as a tourist, more or less. There's no evidence he learned Egyptian, let alone that he learned to read Egyptian (hieroglyphic or demotic) and then tried reading any ancient inscriptions. He's also notorious for apparently not having bothered to use the work of Manetho, a fairly authoritative history written (in Greek) by an actual Egyptian about two centuries earlier.
A wild speculation: in the 740s BC, the ruler of Kush was able to conquer most of Egypt, establishing what's known as the 25th dynasty, which ruled Egypt until the Neo-Assyrian Empire invaded circa 670 BC. It is perhaps possible that what Diodorus Siculus is relating is based on a garbled memory of the Kushite conquest and the 25th dynasty.
answered 1 hour ago
Peter Erwin
1,885516
edited 1 hour ago
answered 1 hour ago
Peter Erwin
1,885516
answered 1 hour ago
Peter Erwin
1,885516
answered 1 hour ago
Peter Erwin
1,885516
1,885516
But Herodotus suggested something similar. He said the Egyptians were "Melanchroes with ulotrichous hair". The above is translated as "Black skinned and Woolly haired". The black skin is the mark of the Ethiopian. Ethiopians were likely the Majority in the 2nd of Egypt's seven social castes. This was the warrior caste (Medjay) of Eastern Sudan. So it may be that the Egyptians and Ethiopians were similar in phenotype, and could be confused for each other especially in Upper Egypt.
– user20490
52 mins ago
@user20490 What do Herodotus' descriptions of Egypt & Egyptians in the fifth century BCE have to do with the origin of Egyptian hieroglyphs almost three millennia earlier?
– sempaiscuba♦
6 mins ago
add a comment |Â
But Herodotus suggested something similar. He said the Egyptians were "Melanchroes with ulotrichous hair". The above is translated as "Black skinned and Woolly haired". The black skin is the mark of the Ethiopian. Ethiopians were likely the Majority in the 2nd of Egypt's seven social castes. This was the warrior caste (Medjay) of Eastern Sudan. So it may be that the Egyptians and Ethiopians were similar in phenotype, and could be confused for each other especially in Upper Egypt.
– user20490
52 mins ago
@user20490 What do Herodotus' descriptions of Egypt & Egyptians in the fifth century BCE have to do with the origin of Egyptian hieroglyphs almost three millennia earlier?
– sempaiscuba♦
6 mins ago
But Herodotus suggested something similar. He said the Egyptians were "Melanchroes with ulotrichous hair". The above is translated as "Black skinned and Woolly haired". The black skin is the mark of the Ethiopian. Ethiopians were likely the Majority in the 2nd of Egypt's seven social castes. This was the warrior caste (Medjay) of Eastern Sudan. So it may be that the Egyptians and Ethiopians were similar in phenotype, and could be confused for each other especially in Upper Egypt.
– user20490
52 mins ago
But Herodotus suggested something similar. He said the Egyptians were "Melanchroes with ulotrichous hair". The above is translated as "Black skinned and Woolly haired". The black skin is the mark of the Ethiopian. Ethiopians were likely the Majority in the 2nd of Egypt's seven social castes. This was the warrior caste (Medjay) of Eastern Sudan. So it may be that the Egyptians and Ethiopians were similar in phenotype, and could be confused for each other especially in Upper Egypt.
– user20490
52 mins ago
@user20490 What do Herodotus' descriptions of Egypt & Egyptians in the fifth century BCE have to do with the origin of Egyptian hieroglyphs almost three millennia earlier?
– sempaiscuba♦
6 mins ago
@user20490 What do Herodotus' descriptions of Egypt & Egyptians in the fifth century BCE have to do with the origin of Egyptian hieroglyphs almost three millennia earlier?
– sempaiscuba♦
6 mins ago
add a comment |Â
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Ethiopian writing is syllabaric, not hieroglyphic.
– Lucian
19 hours ago
1
As a general rule, it is a good idea that, if you're going to claim that "Some argue that ...", you also cite some examples. Vague, unsupported statements like this are often a hallmark of push questions, which are explicitly off-topic on this site.
– sempaiscuba♦
18 hours ago
@Lucian IIRC, those are not exclusive things. "Syllabaric" refers to the phonetic associations. There are several different definitions of "hieroglyphic", but it seems to be primarily based on the pictographic appearance of the glyphs, rather than what their phonetic associations are. So, for instance, both Egyptian and Mayan hieroglyphs have syllabaric elements in them (as well as logograms and alphabetic elements).
– RBarryYoung
17 hours ago
@RBarryYoung: Technically true, but the cited quotation clearly does not ascribe such meaning to the word hieroglyph; see the latter half of its last paragraph.
– Lucian
17 hours ago
2
@Lucian Your link refers to the Amharic script of Ancient Abyssinian/Axumites who live in Modern Ethiopia. When Greeks spoke about Ethiopia, they were usually refering to the Nubians (People of Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan). They once had an ancient Kingdom called Soba which was renamed Meroe by Cambyses. They were referring to the Ethiopian kingdom that built the 200+ pyramids in Sudan. The ancient kingdom that worshiped at Jebel Barkal( Mountain of Amun where the Pharaohs were coronated). Jebel Barkal was the holiest site in the Nile valley. It is in Sudan!
– user20490
17 hours ago