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What happens if multiple triggers on the stack would cause both players to drop to 0 life if fully resolved?
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up vote
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favorite
I have searched StackExchange Board & Card Games and it looks like this has never been asked:
In Magic: The Gathering, if when the stack has been fully resolved both players will have dropped to 0 life, is the game considered a draw? Or alternatively, does the player who reaches 0 life first lose and the other player wins?
Here's the situation that caused me to ask this question:
- I was playing a match where both my opponent and I were using Poison-Tip Archer. I had two of them on the field, my opponent had one.
- I was on 4 life, my opponent was on 7.
- I attacked with three 3/3 saproling tokens (I had a Tendershoot Dryad in play).
- All three were blocked, killing them all and one blocker.
As the active player I ordered the stack so that the triggered abilities of my Archers resolved first. My opponent took 8 damage, but then if the stack was fully resolved I would take 4 damage, reducing us both to 0 life.
As you might imagine, I think I won but my opponent thinks it was a draw. Which one of us is correct?
magic-the-gathering
asked 4 hours ago
liamvharris
788
New contributor
liamvharris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |Â
up vote
13
down vote
favorite
I have searched StackExchange Board & Card Games and it looks like this has never been asked:
In Magic: The Gathering, if when the stack has been fully resolved both players will have dropped to 0 life, is the game considered a draw? Or alternatively, does the player who reaches 0 life first lose and the other player wins?
Here's the situation that caused me to ask this question:
- I was playing a match where both my opponent and I were using Poison-Tip Archer. I had two of them on the field, my opponent had one.
- I was on 4 life, my opponent was on 7.
- I attacked with three 3/3 saproling tokens (I had a Tendershoot Dryad in play).
- All three were blocked, killing them all and one blocker.
As the active player I ordered the stack so that the triggered abilities of my Archers resolved first. My opponent took 8 damage, but then if the stack was fully resolved I would take 4 damage, reducing us both to 0 life.
As you might imagine, I think I won but my opponent thinks it was a draw. Which one of us is correct?
magic-the-gathering
asked 4 hours ago
liamvharris
788
New contributor
liamvharris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Welcome to the site, good first question! You may want to consider rewording the title to drop the "In Magic: The Gathering," (we use tags for that) and maybe clarify that it is multiple triggers that are causing the life loss. Initially I thought you were asking about what happens if something like if [mtg:Blood Toll Harpy] enters the battlefield when both players are at 1.
– Malco
30 mins ago
Thanks @Malco, I've edited the title of my question as you suggested, I hope it's clearer now.
– liamvharris
20 mins ago
Perfect Looks great!
– Malco
2 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
13
down vote
favorite
up vote
13
down vote
favorite
I have searched StackExchange Board & Card Games and it looks like this has never been asked:
In Magic: The Gathering, if when the stack has been fully resolved both players will have dropped to 0 life, is the game considered a draw? Or alternatively, does the player who reaches 0 life first lose and the other player wins?
Here's the situation that caused me to ask this question:
- I was playing a match where both my opponent and I were using Poison-Tip Archer. I had two of them on the field, my opponent had one.
- I was on 4 life, my opponent was on 7.
- I attacked with three 3/3 saproling tokens (I had a Tendershoot Dryad in play).
- All three were blocked, killing them all and one blocker.
As the active player I ordered the stack so that the triggered abilities of my Archers resolved first. My opponent took 8 damage, but then if the stack was fully resolved I would take 4 damage, reducing us both to 0 life.
As you might imagine, I think I won but my opponent thinks it was a draw. Which one of us is correct?
magic-the-gathering
asked 4 hours ago
liamvharris
788
New contributor
liamvharris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
I have searched StackExchange Board & Card Games and it looks like this has never been asked:
In Magic: The Gathering, if when the stack has been fully resolved both players will have dropped to 0 life, is the game considered a draw? Or alternatively, does the player who reaches 0 life first lose and the other player wins?
Here's the situation that caused me to ask this question:
- I was playing a match where both my opponent and I were using Poison-Tip Archer. I had two of them on the field, my opponent had one.
- I was on 4 life, my opponent was on 7.
- I attacked with three 3/3 saproling tokens (I had a Tendershoot Dryad in play).
- All three were blocked, killing them all and one blocker.
As the active player I ordered the stack so that the triggered abilities of my Archers resolved first. My opponent took 8 damage, but then if the stack was fully resolved I would take 4 damage, reducing us both to 0 life.
As you might imagine, I think I won but my opponent thinks it was a draw. Which one of us is correct?
magic-the-gathering
magic-the-gathering
asked 4 hours ago
liamvharris
788
New contributor
liamvharris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 4 hours ago
liamvharris
788
New contributor
liamvharris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 22 mins ago
asked 4 hours ago
liamvharris
788
New contributor
liamvharris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 4 hours ago
liamvharris
788
asked 4 hours ago
liamvharris
788
788
New contributor
liamvharris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
liamvharris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
liamvharris is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Welcome to the site, good first question! You may want to consider rewording the title to drop the "In Magic: The Gathering," (we use tags for that) and maybe clarify that it is multiple triggers that are causing the life loss. Initially I thought you were asking about what happens if something like if [mtg:Blood Toll Harpy] enters the battlefield when both players are at 1.
– Malco
30 mins ago
Thanks @Malco, I've edited the title of my question as you suggested, I hope it's clearer now.
– liamvharris
20 mins ago
Perfect Looks great!
– Malco
2 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Welcome to the site, good first question! You may want to consider rewording the title to drop the "In Magic: The Gathering," (we use tags for that) and maybe clarify that it is multiple triggers that are causing the life loss. Initially I thought you were asking about what happens if something like if [mtg:Blood Toll Harpy] enters the battlefield when both players are at 1.
– Malco
30 mins ago
Thanks @Malco, I've edited the title of my question as you suggested, I hope it's clearer now.
– liamvharris
20 mins ago
Perfect Looks great!
– Malco
2 mins ago
Welcome to the site, good first question! You may want to consider rewording the title to drop the "In Magic: The Gathering," (we use tags for that) and maybe clarify that it is multiple triggers that are causing the life loss. Initially I thought you were asking about what happens if something like if [mtg:Blood Toll Harpy] enters the battlefield when both players are at 1.
– Malco
30 mins ago
Welcome to the site, good first question! You may want to consider rewording the title to drop the "In Magic: The Gathering," (we use tags for that) and maybe clarify that it is multiple triggers that are causing the life loss. Initially I thought you were asking about what happens if something like if [mtg:Blood Toll Harpy] enters the battlefield when both players are at 1.
– Malco
30 mins ago
Thanks @Malco, I've edited the title of my question as you suggested, I hope it's clearer now.
– liamvharris
20 mins ago
Thanks @Malco, I've edited the title of my question as you suggested, I hope it's clearer now.
– liamvharris
20 mins ago
Perfect Looks great!
– Malco
2 mins ago
Perfect Looks great!
– Malco
2 mins ago
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
up vote
14
down vote
accepted
In the situation you describe, both you and your opponent were incorrect. You would have died first because your opponent's triggered abilities would have resolved first. You do not get to arrange all triggered abilities, only the ones you control. Nobody has control over which player's abilities as a whole go on the stack first, because that is defined by the rules.
You misunderstood the rules for multiple ability triggers at the same time:
603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities they control on the stack in any order they choose. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.
In other words, triggered abilities that trigger at the same time go on the stack in blocks, where each block consists of all triggered abilities a certain player controls. These blocks go on the stack in APNAP order, and only the order of abilities within each block can be determined by its respective controller.
It was your turn, so you were the active player. Your and your opponent's Poison Tip Archer triggered at the same time. According to 603.3b, you are the first to put your 8 triggers on the stack in any order you choose, followed by the opponent's 4 in the order the opponent chooses. Therefore, your opponent's triggers resolve first. You lose 1 life for each trigger, and when you are at zero life, before the next ability can resolve, you would lose the game.
answered 3 hours ago
Hackworth
23.4k260109
2
"Your and your opponent's Poison Tip Archer triggered at the same time." It's not even that important that it happened at the same time. It only matters that all triggers happened since the last time anyone had priority. It's not relevant here, but consider if I have an ability that lets me draw a card, then discard a card. Clearly the discard happens after the draw, and I'm allowed to discard the card I drew. But if there is an ability on the battlefield which triggers when I draw a card and one which triggers when I discard a card, they won't care about which happened first.
– Arthur
3 hours ago
Ah I see! Thanks for answering my question and highlighting my misunderstanding - really useful!
– liamvharris
1 hour ago
Does priority pass at any time during the block of triggered abilities? If not, does that mean you can arrange things to hit 0 or less and then get back above before dying?
– Imperial Justinian
58 mins ago
@ImperialJustinian Whenever a spell or ability resolves, each player in APNAP order gets priority and can play any number of spells and abilities that go on top of the stack.
– Hackworth
54 mins ago
@Arthur There is never a situation where the difference matters, including your example. Events can happen in order, and technically, that means triggered abilities can trigger in order, but in practice, the order of abilities is determined by the player controllling them.Therefore, at least as far as triggered abilities are concerned, everything that happens between two consecutive instances of a player gaining priority is simultaneous.
– Hackworth
50 mins ago
 |Â
show 6 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
14
down vote
accepted
In the situation you describe, both you and your opponent were incorrect. You would have died first because your opponent's triggered abilities would have resolved first. You do not get to arrange all triggered abilities, only the ones you control. Nobody has control over which player's abilities as a whole go on the stack first, because that is defined by the rules.
You misunderstood the rules for multiple ability triggers at the same time:
603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities they control on the stack in any order they choose. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.
In other words, triggered abilities that trigger at the same time go on the stack in blocks, where each block consists of all triggered abilities a certain player controls. These blocks go on the stack in APNAP order, and only the order of abilities within each block can be determined by its respective controller.
It was your turn, so you were the active player. Your and your opponent's Poison Tip Archer triggered at the same time. According to 603.3b, you are the first to put your 8 triggers on the stack in any order you choose, followed by the opponent's 4 in the order the opponent chooses. Therefore, your opponent's triggers resolve first. You lose 1 life for each trigger, and when you are at zero life, before the next ability can resolve, you would lose the game.
answered 3 hours ago
Hackworth
23.4k260109
2
"Your and your opponent's Poison Tip Archer triggered at the same time." It's not even that important that it happened at the same time. It only matters that all triggers happened since the last time anyone had priority. It's not relevant here, but consider if I have an ability that lets me draw a card, then discard a card. Clearly the discard happens after the draw, and I'm allowed to discard the card I drew. But if there is an ability on the battlefield which triggers when I draw a card and one which triggers when I discard a card, they won't care about which happened first.
– Arthur
3 hours ago
Ah I see! Thanks for answering my question and highlighting my misunderstanding - really useful!
– liamvharris
1 hour ago
Does priority pass at any time during the block of triggered abilities? If not, does that mean you can arrange things to hit 0 or less and then get back above before dying?
– Imperial Justinian
58 mins ago
@ImperialJustinian Whenever a spell or ability resolves, each player in APNAP order gets priority and can play any number of spells and abilities that go on top of the stack.
– Hackworth
54 mins ago
@Arthur There is never a situation where the difference matters, including your example. Events can happen in order, and technically, that means triggered abilities can trigger in order, but in practice, the order of abilities is determined by the player controllling them.Therefore, at least as far as triggered abilities are concerned, everything that happens between two consecutive instances of a player gaining priority is simultaneous.
– Hackworth
50 mins ago
 |Â
show 6 more comments
up vote
14
down vote
accepted
In the situation you describe, both you and your opponent were incorrect. You would have died first because your opponent's triggered abilities would have resolved first. You do not get to arrange all triggered abilities, only the ones you control. Nobody has control over which player's abilities as a whole go on the stack first, because that is defined by the rules.
You misunderstood the rules for multiple ability triggers at the same time:
603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities they control on the stack in any order they choose. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.
In other words, triggered abilities that trigger at the same time go on the stack in blocks, where each block consists of all triggered abilities a certain player controls. These blocks go on the stack in APNAP order, and only the order of abilities within each block can be determined by its respective controller.
It was your turn, so you were the active player. Your and your opponent's Poison Tip Archer triggered at the same time. According to 603.3b, you are the first to put your 8 triggers on the stack in any order you choose, followed by the opponent's 4 in the order the opponent chooses. Therefore, your opponent's triggers resolve first. You lose 1 life for each trigger, and when you are at zero life, before the next ability can resolve, you would lose the game.
answered 3 hours ago
Hackworth
23.4k260109
2
"Your and your opponent's Poison Tip Archer triggered at the same time." It's not even that important that it happened at the same time. It only matters that all triggers happened since the last time anyone had priority. It's not relevant here, but consider if I have an ability that lets me draw a card, then discard a card. Clearly the discard happens after the draw, and I'm allowed to discard the card I drew. But if there is an ability on the battlefield which triggers when I draw a card and one which triggers when I discard a card, they won't care about which happened first.
– Arthur
3 hours ago
Ah I see! Thanks for answering my question and highlighting my misunderstanding - really useful!
– liamvharris
1 hour ago
Does priority pass at any time during the block of triggered abilities? If not, does that mean you can arrange things to hit 0 or less and then get back above before dying?
– Imperial Justinian
58 mins ago
@ImperialJustinian Whenever a spell or ability resolves, each player in APNAP order gets priority and can play any number of spells and abilities that go on top of the stack.
– Hackworth
54 mins ago
@Arthur There is never a situation where the difference matters, including your example. Events can happen in order, and technically, that means triggered abilities can trigger in order, but in practice, the order of abilities is determined by the player controllling them.Therefore, at least as far as triggered abilities are concerned, everything that happens between two consecutive instances of a player gaining priority is simultaneous.
– Hackworth
50 mins ago
 |Â
show 6 more comments
up vote
14
down vote
accepted
up vote
14
down vote
accepted
In the situation you describe, both you and your opponent were incorrect. You would have died first because your opponent's triggered abilities would have resolved first. You do not get to arrange all triggered abilities, only the ones you control. Nobody has control over which player's abilities as a whole go on the stack first, because that is defined by the rules.
You misunderstood the rules for multiple ability triggers at the same time:
603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities they control on the stack in any order they choose. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.
In other words, triggered abilities that trigger at the same time go on the stack in blocks, where each block consists of all triggered abilities a certain player controls. These blocks go on the stack in APNAP order, and only the order of abilities within each block can be determined by its respective controller.
It was your turn, so you were the active player. Your and your opponent's Poison Tip Archer triggered at the same time. According to 603.3b, you are the first to put your 8 triggers on the stack in any order you choose, followed by the opponent's 4 in the order the opponent chooses. Therefore, your opponent's triggers resolve first. You lose 1 life for each trigger, and when you are at zero life, before the next ability can resolve, you would lose the game.
answered 3 hours ago
Hackworth
23.4k260109
In the situation you describe, both you and your opponent were incorrect. You would have died first because your opponent's triggered abilities would have resolved first. You do not get to arrange all triggered abilities, only the ones you control. Nobody has control over which player's abilities as a whole go on the stack first, because that is defined by the rules.
You misunderstood the rules for multiple ability triggers at the same time:
603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities they control on the stack in any order they choose. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.
In other words, triggered abilities that trigger at the same time go on the stack in blocks, where each block consists of all triggered abilities a certain player controls. These blocks go on the stack in APNAP order, and only the order of abilities within each block can be determined by its respective controller.
It was your turn, so you were the active player. Your and your opponent's Poison Tip Archer triggered at the same time. According to 603.3b, you are the first to put your 8 triggers on the stack in any order you choose, followed by the opponent's 4 in the order the opponent chooses. Therefore, your opponent's triggers resolve first. You lose 1 life for each trigger, and when you are at zero life, before the next ability can resolve, you would lose the game.
answered 3 hours ago
Hackworth
23.4k260109
edited 2 hours ago
answered 3 hours ago
Hackworth
23.4k260109
answered 3 hours ago
Hackworth
23.4k260109
answered 3 hours ago
Hackworth
23.4k260109
23.4k260109
2
"Your and your opponent's Poison Tip Archer triggered at the same time." It's not even that important that it happened at the same time. It only matters that all triggers happened since the last time anyone had priority. It's not relevant here, but consider if I have an ability that lets me draw a card, then discard a card. Clearly the discard happens after the draw, and I'm allowed to discard the card I drew. But if there is an ability on the battlefield which triggers when I draw a card and one which triggers when I discard a card, they won't care about which happened first.
– Arthur
3 hours ago
Ah I see! Thanks for answering my question and highlighting my misunderstanding - really useful!
– liamvharris
1 hour ago
Does priority pass at any time during the block of triggered abilities? If not, does that mean you can arrange things to hit 0 or less and then get back above before dying?
– Imperial Justinian
58 mins ago
@ImperialJustinian Whenever a spell or ability resolves, each player in APNAP order gets priority and can play any number of spells and abilities that go on top of the stack.
– Hackworth
54 mins ago
@Arthur There is never a situation where the difference matters, including your example. Events can happen in order, and technically, that means triggered abilities can trigger in order, but in practice, the order of abilities is determined by the player controllling them.Therefore, at least as far as triggered abilities are concerned, everything that happens between two consecutive instances of a player gaining priority is simultaneous.
– Hackworth
50 mins ago
 |Â
show 6 more comments
2
"Your and your opponent's Poison Tip Archer triggered at the same time." It's not even that important that it happened at the same time. It only matters that all triggers happened since the last time anyone had priority. It's not relevant here, but consider if I have an ability that lets me draw a card, then discard a card. Clearly the discard happens after the draw, and I'm allowed to discard the card I drew. But if there is an ability on the battlefield which triggers when I draw a card and one which triggers when I discard a card, they won't care about which happened first.
– Arthur
3 hours ago
Ah I see! Thanks for answering my question and highlighting my misunderstanding - really useful!
– liamvharris
1 hour ago
Does priority pass at any time during the block of triggered abilities? If not, does that mean you can arrange things to hit 0 or less and then get back above before dying?
– Imperial Justinian
58 mins ago
@ImperialJustinian Whenever a spell or ability resolves, each player in APNAP order gets priority and can play any number of spells and abilities that go on top of the stack.
– Hackworth
54 mins ago
@Arthur There is never a situation where the difference matters, including your example. Events can happen in order, and technically, that means triggered abilities can trigger in order, but in practice, the order of abilities is determined by the player controllling them.Therefore, at least as far as triggered abilities are concerned, everything that happens between two consecutive instances of a player gaining priority is simultaneous.
– Hackworth
50 mins ago
2
2
"Your and your opponent's Poison Tip Archer triggered at the same time." It's not even that important that it happened at the same time. It only matters that all triggers happened since the last time anyone had priority. It's not relevant here, but consider if I have an ability that lets me draw a card, then discard a card. Clearly the discard happens after the draw, and I'm allowed to discard the card I drew. But if there is an ability on the battlefield which triggers when I draw a card and one which triggers when I discard a card, they won't care about which happened first.
– Arthur
3 hours ago
"Your and your opponent's Poison Tip Archer triggered at the same time." It's not even that important that it happened at the same time. It only matters that all triggers happened since the last time anyone had priority. It's not relevant here, but consider if I have an ability that lets me draw a card, then discard a card. Clearly the discard happens after the draw, and I'm allowed to discard the card I drew. But if there is an ability on the battlefield which triggers when I draw a card and one which triggers when I discard a card, they won't care about which happened first.
– Arthur
3 hours ago
Ah I see! Thanks for answering my question and highlighting my misunderstanding - really useful!
– liamvharris
1 hour ago
Ah I see! Thanks for answering my question and highlighting my misunderstanding - really useful!
– liamvharris
1 hour ago
Does priority pass at any time during the block of triggered abilities? If not, does that mean you can arrange things to hit 0 or less and then get back above before dying?
– Imperial Justinian
58 mins ago
Does priority pass at any time during the block of triggered abilities? If not, does that mean you can arrange things to hit 0 or less and then get back above before dying?
– Imperial Justinian
58 mins ago
@ImperialJustinian Whenever a spell or ability resolves, each player in APNAP order gets priority and can play any number of spells and abilities that go on top of the stack.
– Hackworth
54 mins ago
@ImperialJustinian Whenever a spell or ability resolves, each player in APNAP order gets priority and can play any number of spells and abilities that go on top of the stack.
– Hackworth
54 mins ago
@Arthur There is never a situation where the difference matters, including your example. Events can happen in order, and technically, that means triggered abilities can trigger in order, but in practice, the order of abilities is determined by the player controllling them.Therefore, at least as far as triggered abilities are concerned, everything that happens between two consecutive instances of a player gaining priority is simultaneous.
– Hackworth
50 mins ago
@Arthur There is never a situation where the difference matters, including your example. Events can happen in order, and technically, that means triggered abilities can trigger in order, but in practice, the order of abilities is determined by the player controllling them.Therefore, at least as far as triggered abilities are concerned, everything that happens between two consecutive instances of a player gaining priority is simultaneous.
– Hackworth
50 mins ago
 |Â
show 6 more comments
liamvharris is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
liamvharris is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
liamvharris is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
liamvharris is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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Welcome to the site, good first question! You may want to consider rewording the title to drop the "In Magic: The Gathering," (we use tags for that) and maybe clarify that it is multiple triggers that are causing the life loss. Initially I thought you were asking about what happens if something like if [mtg:Blood Toll Harpy] enters the battlefield when both players are at 1.
– Malco
30 mins ago
Thanks @Malco, I've edited the title of my question as you suggested, I hope it's clearer now.
– liamvharris
20 mins ago
Perfect Looks great!
– Malco
2 mins ago