Can fanfics be bestsellers?
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
up vote
2
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favorite
Fanfiction is somewhat of an uncharted territory, which few actual writers/critics take serious note of or are very enthusiastic about. It has been long asked and established whether publishing fanfics is even legally possible at all. Yes, it is possible as long as the work in question doesn't violate copyrights and the plot line isn't too dependent on the original novel it was inspired from. But has there been cases where works that count as fanfiction to some degree have been literally successful and turned out as bestsellers?
Of course, I understand that it isn't very fruitful or wise either for a budding writer to work in this genre. One will just be wasting their time and talent. I just want a list of the exceptional fanfic bestsellers that have managed to do reasonably.
publishing fan-fiction
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
Fanfiction is somewhat of an uncharted territory, which few actual writers/critics take serious note of or are very enthusiastic about. It has been long asked and established whether publishing fanfics is even legally possible at all. Yes, it is possible as long as the work in question doesn't violate copyrights and the plot line isn't too dependent on the original novel it was inspired from. But has there been cases where works that count as fanfiction to some degree have been literally successful and turned out as bestsellers?
Of course, I understand that it isn't very fruitful or wise either for a budding writer to work in this genre. One will just be wasting their time and talent. I just want a list of the exceptional fanfic bestsellers that have managed to do reasonably.
publishing fan-fiction
Where does "Grendel" fall as the story of Beowulf from the monster's perspective fall? Is that considered fanfic?
â J.D. Ray
54 mins ago
@J.D.Ray What do you think of my answer that considers "Wide Sargasso Sea" as a fanfic?
â Soha Farhin Pine
45 mins ago
I don't know the work, sorry.
â J.D. Ray
44 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
Fanfiction is somewhat of an uncharted territory, which few actual writers/critics take serious note of or are very enthusiastic about. It has been long asked and established whether publishing fanfics is even legally possible at all. Yes, it is possible as long as the work in question doesn't violate copyrights and the plot line isn't too dependent on the original novel it was inspired from. But has there been cases where works that count as fanfiction to some degree have been literally successful and turned out as bestsellers?
Of course, I understand that it isn't very fruitful or wise either for a budding writer to work in this genre. One will just be wasting their time and talent. I just want a list of the exceptional fanfic bestsellers that have managed to do reasonably.
publishing fan-fiction
Fanfiction is somewhat of an uncharted territory, which few actual writers/critics take serious note of or are very enthusiastic about. It has been long asked and established whether publishing fanfics is even legally possible at all. Yes, it is possible as long as the work in question doesn't violate copyrights and the plot line isn't too dependent on the original novel it was inspired from. But has there been cases where works that count as fanfiction to some degree have been literally successful and turned out as bestsellers?
Of course, I understand that it isn't very fruitful or wise either for a budding writer to work in this genre. One will just be wasting their time and talent. I just want a list of the exceptional fanfic bestsellers that have managed to do reasonably.
publishing fan-fiction
publishing fan-fiction
edited 53 mins ago
asked 1 hour ago
Soha Farhin Pine
308319
308319
Where does "Grendel" fall as the story of Beowulf from the monster's perspective fall? Is that considered fanfic?
â J.D. Ray
54 mins ago
@J.D.Ray What do you think of my answer that considers "Wide Sargasso Sea" as a fanfic?
â Soha Farhin Pine
45 mins ago
I don't know the work, sorry.
â J.D. Ray
44 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Where does "Grendel" fall as the story of Beowulf from the monster's perspective fall? Is that considered fanfic?
â J.D. Ray
54 mins ago
@J.D.Ray What do you think of my answer that considers "Wide Sargasso Sea" as a fanfic?
â Soha Farhin Pine
45 mins ago
I don't know the work, sorry.
â J.D. Ray
44 mins ago
Where does "Grendel" fall as the story of Beowulf from the monster's perspective fall? Is that considered fanfic?
â J.D. Ray
54 mins ago
Where does "Grendel" fall as the story of Beowulf from the monster's perspective fall? Is that considered fanfic?
â J.D. Ray
54 mins ago
@J.D.Ray What do you think of my answer that considers "Wide Sargasso Sea" as a fanfic?
â Soha Farhin Pine
45 mins ago
@J.D.Ray What do you think of my answer that considers "Wide Sargasso Sea" as a fanfic?
â Soha Farhin Pine
45 mins ago
I don't know the work, sorry.
â J.D. Ray
44 mins ago
I don't know the work, sorry.
â J.D. Ray
44 mins ago
add a comment |Â
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
Why wouldn't it be possible?
Yes. Fifty Shades et al are Twilight fanfics. Note that you may have to reskin a work (change characters, names, settings, etc) to get far enough away from the original work.
Let's try this again: Is Sherlock Holmes on the BBC fanfic? Yup.
Thanks for such a quick response! What do you think of my own answer?
â Soha Farhin Pine
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
For a while, Amazon ran a program called Kindle Worlds where writers could write "fanfic" within the world of subscribed authors (Hugh Howey's Wool series, for example) within certain original author-established parameters. I wrote and published a story in that system, and it sold better than I expected (several hundred copies, maybe), and I had, over the course of a few years, a couple hundred extra dollars. No bestseller, but I can see how one could come out of a situation like that.
Great! You got my +1 instantly.
â Soha Farhin Pine
40 mins ago
You could include that bit about Grendel as well, putting it along the lines of "Grendel could be seen as a fanfic and blah blah blah".
â Soha Farhin Pine
39 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
The main obstacle to fanfics flooding the market is copyright. As long as the original author holds the copyright for their work, fanfics can only live as free stuff on the internet. (Or, as Kirk points out, they can be "reskinned", "retooled", so they're not obviously recognisable as fanfic. In which case, it all depends on how good your lawyers are compared to the lawyers of the original writer.) I personally think that making money off somebody else's work in this fashion is sort of stealing. Cervantes notably was extremely unhappy about someone publishing a Don Quixote fanfic, and went on to publish his own Don Quixote II, in which he mocked the fanifc. But such moral considerations are beside the point.
Once the copyright is over, the work you wanted to write fanfic about is either long forgotten, in which case the fanfic loses its point, or it's become a classic, in which case jusgement of your fanfic is going to be rather harsh: what can you, unknown modern writer, add to the time-honoured classic? Such works do exist, but are less common.
And then, when a work is old enough, it turns out that yes, you do have something to add to it. Enough time has passed that retelling the same story in a different way is now original, interesting, respected, literary. Once and Future King and Mists of Avalon are both Le Morte d'Arthur fanfics. Ursula Le Guin's Lavinia is an Aeneid fanfic. Except that at this point they are no longer called fanfics.
What differentiates your run-of-the-mill fanfic from works like Once and Future King or Wide Sargasso Sea that you mention, is that the former aim mostly at producing more of the same, with some measure of insert-fic and/or doing things to the original book's romances. Whereas works of the latter kind seek to engage with the source material, and using it, say something new, unique. In this fashion, they outgrow the "fanfic" definition.
Incredibly thorough! +1
â Soha Farhin Pine
22 mins ago
I'd give you +1+1 if it were possible, for the reference to Cervantes and his fury over some other mug publishing a Don Quixote tale.
â Chappo
10 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Wide Sargasso Sea comes to mind.
It cannot exactly be considered a fanfic, given that it was a direct result of the writer's disagreement with Bronte's unflattering portrayal of a certain Creole character. Madwife Bertha of Jane Eyre is almost antagonistic, in the sense that it is one of the forces that hold the titular protagonist from fulfilling her dreams and hopes.
But it can certainly be called a "rip-off" (for the lack of a better word) of Jane Eyre, based on one of the central characters from the same. (The storyline doesn't rely too heavily on Jane Eyre though.) And it's a classic in that and can be thought of as a bestseller by extension. I don't suppose the messages and themes in it would have been too popular in those times and that they would have sold either. But it is not unheard of now and definitely critically acclaimed and a fine piece of work in my opinion, served as an elegant response (or you could see it as a payback) to the subtle literary degradation of the Creole people.
add a comment |Â
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
Why wouldn't it be possible?
Yes. Fifty Shades et al are Twilight fanfics. Note that you may have to reskin a work (change characters, names, settings, etc) to get far enough away from the original work.
Let's try this again: Is Sherlock Holmes on the BBC fanfic? Yup.
Thanks for such a quick response! What do you think of my own answer?
â Soha Farhin Pine
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
Why wouldn't it be possible?
Yes. Fifty Shades et al are Twilight fanfics. Note that you may have to reskin a work (change characters, names, settings, etc) to get far enough away from the original work.
Let's try this again: Is Sherlock Holmes on the BBC fanfic? Yup.
Thanks for such a quick response! What do you think of my own answer?
â Soha Farhin Pine
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Why wouldn't it be possible?
Yes. Fifty Shades et al are Twilight fanfics. Note that you may have to reskin a work (change characters, names, settings, etc) to get far enough away from the original work.
Let's try this again: Is Sherlock Holmes on the BBC fanfic? Yup.
Why wouldn't it be possible?
Yes. Fifty Shades et al are Twilight fanfics. Note that you may have to reskin a work (change characters, names, settings, etc) to get far enough away from the original work.
Let's try this again: Is Sherlock Holmes on the BBC fanfic? Yup.
answered 1 hour ago
Kirk
5,5371629
5,5371629
Thanks for such a quick response! What do you think of my own answer?
â Soha Farhin Pine
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
Thanks for such a quick response! What do you think of my own answer?
â Soha Farhin Pine
1 hour ago
Thanks for such a quick response! What do you think of my own answer?
â Soha Farhin Pine
1 hour ago
Thanks for such a quick response! What do you think of my own answer?
â Soha Farhin Pine
1 hour ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
For a while, Amazon ran a program called Kindle Worlds where writers could write "fanfic" within the world of subscribed authors (Hugh Howey's Wool series, for example) within certain original author-established parameters. I wrote and published a story in that system, and it sold better than I expected (several hundred copies, maybe), and I had, over the course of a few years, a couple hundred extra dollars. No bestseller, but I can see how one could come out of a situation like that.
Great! You got my +1 instantly.
â Soha Farhin Pine
40 mins ago
You could include that bit about Grendel as well, putting it along the lines of "Grendel could be seen as a fanfic and blah blah blah".
â Soha Farhin Pine
39 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
For a while, Amazon ran a program called Kindle Worlds where writers could write "fanfic" within the world of subscribed authors (Hugh Howey's Wool series, for example) within certain original author-established parameters. I wrote and published a story in that system, and it sold better than I expected (several hundred copies, maybe), and I had, over the course of a few years, a couple hundred extra dollars. No bestseller, but I can see how one could come out of a situation like that.
Great! You got my +1 instantly.
â Soha Farhin Pine
40 mins ago
You could include that bit about Grendel as well, putting it along the lines of "Grendel could be seen as a fanfic and blah blah blah".
â Soha Farhin Pine
39 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
For a while, Amazon ran a program called Kindle Worlds where writers could write "fanfic" within the world of subscribed authors (Hugh Howey's Wool series, for example) within certain original author-established parameters. I wrote and published a story in that system, and it sold better than I expected (several hundred copies, maybe), and I had, over the course of a few years, a couple hundred extra dollars. No bestseller, but I can see how one could come out of a situation like that.
For a while, Amazon ran a program called Kindle Worlds where writers could write "fanfic" within the world of subscribed authors (Hugh Howey's Wool series, for example) within certain original author-established parameters. I wrote and published a story in that system, and it sold better than I expected (several hundred copies, maybe), and I had, over the course of a few years, a couple hundred extra dollars. No bestseller, but I can see how one could come out of a situation like that.
answered 41 mins ago
J.D. Ray
389311
389311
Great! You got my +1 instantly.
â Soha Farhin Pine
40 mins ago
You could include that bit about Grendel as well, putting it along the lines of "Grendel could be seen as a fanfic and blah blah blah".
â Soha Farhin Pine
39 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Great! You got my +1 instantly.
â Soha Farhin Pine
40 mins ago
You could include that bit about Grendel as well, putting it along the lines of "Grendel could be seen as a fanfic and blah blah blah".
â Soha Farhin Pine
39 mins ago
Great! You got my +1 instantly.
â Soha Farhin Pine
40 mins ago
Great! You got my +1 instantly.
â Soha Farhin Pine
40 mins ago
You could include that bit about Grendel as well, putting it along the lines of "Grendel could be seen as a fanfic and blah blah blah".
â Soha Farhin Pine
39 mins ago
You could include that bit about Grendel as well, putting it along the lines of "Grendel could be seen as a fanfic and blah blah blah".
â Soha Farhin Pine
39 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
The main obstacle to fanfics flooding the market is copyright. As long as the original author holds the copyright for their work, fanfics can only live as free stuff on the internet. (Or, as Kirk points out, they can be "reskinned", "retooled", so they're not obviously recognisable as fanfic. In which case, it all depends on how good your lawyers are compared to the lawyers of the original writer.) I personally think that making money off somebody else's work in this fashion is sort of stealing. Cervantes notably was extremely unhappy about someone publishing a Don Quixote fanfic, and went on to publish his own Don Quixote II, in which he mocked the fanifc. But such moral considerations are beside the point.
Once the copyright is over, the work you wanted to write fanfic about is either long forgotten, in which case the fanfic loses its point, or it's become a classic, in which case jusgement of your fanfic is going to be rather harsh: what can you, unknown modern writer, add to the time-honoured classic? Such works do exist, but are less common.
And then, when a work is old enough, it turns out that yes, you do have something to add to it. Enough time has passed that retelling the same story in a different way is now original, interesting, respected, literary. Once and Future King and Mists of Avalon are both Le Morte d'Arthur fanfics. Ursula Le Guin's Lavinia is an Aeneid fanfic. Except that at this point they are no longer called fanfics.
What differentiates your run-of-the-mill fanfic from works like Once and Future King or Wide Sargasso Sea that you mention, is that the former aim mostly at producing more of the same, with some measure of insert-fic and/or doing things to the original book's romances. Whereas works of the latter kind seek to engage with the source material, and using it, say something new, unique. In this fashion, they outgrow the "fanfic" definition.
Incredibly thorough! +1
â Soha Farhin Pine
22 mins ago
I'd give you +1+1 if it were possible, for the reference to Cervantes and his fury over some other mug publishing a Don Quixote tale.
â Chappo
10 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
The main obstacle to fanfics flooding the market is copyright. As long as the original author holds the copyright for their work, fanfics can only live as free stuff on the internet. (Or, as Kirk points out, they can be "reskinned", "retooled", so they're not obviously recognisable as fanfic. In which case, it all depends on how good your lawyers are compared to the lawyers of the original writer.) I personally think that making money off somebody else's work in this fashion is sort of stealing. Cervantes notably was extremely unhappy about someone publishing a Don Quixote fanfic, and went on to publish his own Don Quixote II, in which he mocked the fanifc. But such moral considerations are beside the point.
Once the copyright is over, the work you wanted to write fanfic about is either long forgotten, in which case the fanfic loses its point, or it's become a classic, in which case jusgement of your fanfic is going to be rather harsh: what can you, unknown modern writer, add to the time-honoured classic? Such works do exist, but are less common.
And then, when a work is old enough, it turns out that yes, you do have something to add to it. Enough time has passed that retelling the same story in a different way is now original, interesting, respected, literary. Once and Future King and Mists of Avalon are both Le Morte d'Arthur fanfics. Ursula Le Guin's Lavinia is an Aeneid fanfic. Except that at this point they are no longer called fanfics.
What differentiates your run-of-the-mill fanfic from works like Once and Future King or Wide Sargasso Sea that you mention, is that the former aim mostly at producing more of the same, with some measure of insert-fic and/or doing things to the original book's romances. Whereas works of the latter kind seek to engage with the source material, and using it, say something new, unique. In this fashion, they outgrow the "fanfic" definition.
Incredibly thorough! +1
â Soha Farhin Pine
22 mins ago
I'd give you +1+1 if it were possible, for the reference to Cervantes and his fury over some other mug publishing a Don Quixote tale.
â Chappo
10 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
The main obstacle to fanfics flooding the market is copyright. As long as the original author holds the copyright for their work, fanfics can only live as free stuff on the internet. (Or, as Kirk points out, they can be "reskinned", "retooled", so they're not obviously recognisable as fanfic. In which case, it all depends on how good your lawyers are compared to the lawyers of the original writer.) I personally think that making money off somebody else's work in this fashion is sort of stealing. Cervantes notably was extremely unhappy about someone publishing a Don Quixote fanfic, and went on to publish his own Don Quixote II, in which he mocked the fanifc. But such moral considerations are beside the point.
Once the copyright is over, the work you wanted to write fanfic about is either long forgotten, in which case the fanfic loses its point, or it's become a classic, in which case jusgement of your fanfic is going to be rather harsh: what can you, unknown modern writer, add to the time-honoured classic? Such works do exist, but are less common.
And then, when a work is old enough, it turns out that yes, you do have something to add to it. Enough time has passed that retelling the same story in a different way is now original, interesting, respected, literary. Once and Future King and Mists of Avalon are both Le Morte d'Arthur fanfics. Ursula Le Guin's Lavinia is an Aeneid fanfic. Except that at this point they are no longer called fanfics.
What differentiates your run-of-the-mill fanfic from works like Once and Future King or Wide Sargasso Sea that you mention, is that the former aim mostly at producing more of the same, with some measure of insert-fic and/or doing things to the original book's romances. Whereas works of the latter kind seek to engage with the source material, and using it, say something new, unique. In this fashion, they outgrow the "fanfic" definition.
The main obstacle to fanfics flooding the market is copyright. As long as the original author holds the copyright for their work, fanfics can only live as free stuff on the internet. (Or, as Kirk points out, they can be "reskinned", "retooled", so they're not obviously recognisable as fanfic. In which case, it all depends on how good your lawyers are compared to the lawyers of the original writer.) I personally think that making money off somebody else's work in this fashion is sort of stealing. Cervantes notably was extremely unhappy about someone publishing a Don Quixote fanfic, and went on to publish his own Don Quixote II, in which he mocked the fanifc. But such moral considerations are beside the point.
Once the copyright is over, the work you wanted to write fanfic about is either long forgotten, in which case the fanfic loses its point, or it's become a classic, in which case jusgement of your fanfic is going to be rather harsh: what can you, unknown modern writer, add to the time-honoured classic? Such works do exist, but are less common.
And then, when a work is old enough, it turns out that yes, you do have something to add to it. Enough time has passed that retelling the same story in a different way is now original, interesting, respected, literary. Once and Future King and Mists of Avalon are both Le Morte d'Arthur fanfics. Ursula Le Guin's Lavinia is an Aeneid fanfic. Except that at this point they are no longer called fanfics.
What differentiates your run-of-the-mill fanfic from works like Once and Future King or Wide Sargasso Sea that you mention, is that the former aim mostly at producing more of the same, with some measure of insert-fic and/or doing things to the original book's romances. Whereas works of the latter kind seek to engage with the source material, and using it, say something new, unique. In this fashion, they outgrow the "fanfic" definition.
edited 7 mins ago
answered 28 mins ago
Galastel
17.9k346101
17.9k346101
Incredibly thorough! +1
â Soha Farhin Pine
22 mins ago
I'd give you +1+1 if it were possible, for the reference to Cervantes and his fury over some other mug publishing a Don Quixote tale.
â Chappo
10 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Incredibly thorough! +1
â Soha Farhin Pine
22 mins ago
I'd give you +1+1 if it were possible, for the reference to Cervantes and his fury over some other mug publishing a Don Quixote tale.
â Chappo
10 mins ago
Incredibly thorough! +1
â Soha Farhin Pine
22 mins ago
Incredibly thorough! +1
â Soha Farhin Pine
22 mins ago
I'd give you +1+1 if it were possible, for the reference to Cervantes and his fury over some other mug publishing a Don Quixote tale.
â Chappo
10 mins ago
I'd give you +1+1 if it were possible, for the reference to Cervantes and his fury over some other mug publishing a Don Quixote tale.
â Chappo
10 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Wide Sargasso Sea comes to mind.
It cannot exactly be considered a fanfic, given that it was a direct result of the writer's disagreement with Bronte's unflattering portrayal of a certain Creole character. Madwife Bertha of Jane Eyre is almost antagonistic, in the sense that it is one of the forces that hold the titular protagonist from fulfilling her dreams and hopes.
But it can certainly be called a "rip-off" (for the lack of a better word) of Jane Eyre, based on one of the central characters from the same. (The storyline doesn't rely too heavily on Jane Eyre though.) And it's a classic in that and can be thought of as a bestseller by extension. I don't suppose the messages and themes in it would have been too popular in those times and that they would have sold either. But it is not unheard of now and definitely critically acclaimed and a fine piece of work in my opinion, served as an elegant response (or you could see it as a payback) to the subtle literary degradation of the Creole people.
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Wide Sargasso Sea comes to mind.
It cannot exactly be considered a fanfic, given that it was a direct result of the writer's disagreement with Bronte's unflattering portrayal of a certain Creole character. Madwife Bertha of Jane Eyre is almost antagonistic, in the sense that it is one of the forces that hold the titular protagonist from fulfilling her dreams and hopes.
But it can certainly be called a "rip-off" (for the lack of a better word) of Jane Eyre, based on one of the central characters from the same. (The storyline doesn't rely too heavily on Jane Eyre though.) And it's a classic in that and can be thought of as a bestseller by extension. I don't suppose the messages and themes in it would have been too popular in those times and that they would have sold either. But it is not unheard of now and definitely critically acclaimed and a fine piece of work in my opinion, served as an elegant response (or you could see it as a payback) to the subtle literary degradation of the Creole people.
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Wide Sargasso Sea comes to mind.
It cannot exactly be considered a fanfic, given that it was a direct result of the writer's disagreement with Bronte's unflattering portrayal of a certain Creole character. Madwife Bertha of Jane Eyre is almost antagonistic, in the sense that it is one of the forces that hold the titular protagonist from fulfilling her dreams and hopes.
But it can certainly be called a "rip-off" (for the lack of a better word) of Jane Eyre, based on one of the central characters from the same. (The storyline doesn't rely too heavily on Jane Eyre though.) And it's a classic in that and can be thought of as a bestseller by extension. I don't suppose the messages and themes in it would have been too popular in those times and that they would have sold either. But it is not unheard of now and definitely critically acclaimed and a fine piece of work in my opinion, served as an elegant response (or you could see it as a payback) to the subtle literary degradation of the Creole people.
Wide Sargasso Sea comes to mind.
It cannot exactly be considered a fanfic, given that it was a direct result of the writer's disagreement with Bronte's unflattering portrayal of a certain Creole character. Madwife Bertha of Jane Eyre is almost antagonistic, in the sense that it is one of the forces that hold the titular protagonist from fulfilling her dreams and hopes.
But it can certainly be called a "rip-off" (for the lack of a better word) of Jane Eyre, based on one of the central characters from the same. (The storyline doesn't rely too heavily on Jane Eyre though.) And it's a classic in that and can be thought of as a bestseller by extension. I don't suppose the messages and themes in it would have been too popular in those times and that they would have sold either. But it is not unheard of now and definitely critically acclaimed and a fine piece of work in my opinion, served as an elegant response (or you could see it as a payback) to the subtle literary degradation of the Creole people.
edited 25 mins ago
answered 1 hour ago
Soha Farhin Pine
308319
308319
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
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Where does "Grendel" fall as the story of Beowulf from the monster's perspective fall? Is that considered fanfic?
â J.D. Ray
54 mins ago
@J.D.Ray What do you think of my answer that considers "Wide Sargasso Sea" as a fanfic?
â Soha Farhin Pine
45 mins ago
I don't know the work, sorry.
â J.D. Ray
44 mins ago