C-Betting on Flops that Missed Both You and Your Opponents?

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From Analytical No-Limit Holdem:




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I don't understand the author's point very well here on why you should tend to c-bet pairs and ace highs (as well as weaker hands that are more likely dominated if they hit). How can an opponent make profit by going all in with aces and pairs against our c-bet?



Question: Why not check the flop in position with pairs and ace high hands? If you have hands like these (that are both weak but still probably best), shouldn't your objective be to get to the river as cheaply as possible (and/or induce a turn or river bluff from your opponent for more value)?










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  • A question where they don't give the hero's hole cards is just silly.
    – paparazzo
    4 hours ago














up vote
2
down vote

favorite












From Analytical No-Limit Holdem:




enter image description hereenter image description here




I don't understand the author's point very well here on why you should tend to c-bet pairs and ace highs (as well as weaker hands that are more likely dominated if they hit). How can an opponent make profit by going all in with aces and pairs against our c-bet?



Question: Why not check the flop in position with pairs and ace high hands? If you have hands like these (that are both weak but still probably best), shouldn't your objective be to get to the river as cheaply as possible (and/or induce a turn or river bluff from your opponent for more value)?










share|improve this question























  • A question where they don't give the hero's hole cards is just silly.
    – paparazzo
    4 hours ago












up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











From Analytical No-Limit Holdem:




enter image description hereenter image description here




I don't understand the author's point very well here on why you should tend to c-bet pairs and ace highs (as well as weaker hands that are more likely dominated if they hit). How can an opponent make profit by going all in with aces and pairs against our c-bet?



Question: Why not check the flop in position with pairs and ace high hands? If you have hands like these (that are both weak but still probably best), shouldn't your objective be to get to the river as cheaply as possible (and/or induce a turn or river bluff from your opponent for more value)?










share|improve this question















From Analytical No-Limit Holdem:




enter image description hereenter image description here




I don't understand the author's point very well here on why you should tend to c-bet pairs and ace highs (as well as weaker hands that are more likely dominated if they hit). How can an opponent make profit by going all in with aces and pairs against our c-bet?



Question: Why not check the flop in position with pairs and ace high hands? If you have hands like these (that are both weak but still probably best), shouldn't your objective be to get to the river as cheaply as possible (and/or induce a turn or river bluff from your opponent for more value)?







no-limit






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edited 4 hours ago

























asked 4 hours ago









George

1234




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  • A question where they don't give the hero's hole cards is just silly.
    – paparazzo
    4 hours ago
















  • A question where they don't give the hero's hole cards is just silly.
    – paparazzo
    4 hours ago















A question where they don't give the hero's hole cards is just silly.
– paparazzo
4 hours ago




A question where they don't give the hero's hole cards is just silly.
– paparazzo
4 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
2
down vote



accepted










Basically what the author is trying to say is that you don't want to c-bet all your hands, because you will have to fold to a shove a lot of the time. Your opponent can abuse you this way. He proposes to use hero's overpairs as bets, since they will not improve on many turns. The hand strength will rarely change, so there is not much value for hero in seeing a turn. To balance out this value range we want to bet the hands that have the least amount of showdown, like JTs, 98s. Ace high hands like AK and AQ have showdown value and can hit a pair or a flush/flush draw more often than an overpair. They benefit more from seeing a turn and maybe getting to showdown, so they should check.



So to get to your question. The author actually proposes to check a lot of ace high hands, because like you said, you have showdown value and want to get to the river. However your overpair hands are very strong. They will rarely be beat, so hero wants to bet for value.



I agree with the author's strategy here, however I would advice to sometimes check aces or kings to have a stronger checking range.



EDIT: so in short (and we can apply this to a lot of situations): bet your strongest and weakest hands to get value and folds respectively. Check your mediocre hands to get to showdown and avoid playing a massive pot, but include from time to time a very strong hand to strengthen your check back range.






share|improve this answer






















  • So hands to c-bet in this spot: overpairs + hands that have very little showdown value (i.e. 98s). Hands to check: everything else, including smaller pairs, ace-high hands, king high hands, etc. Is this about right?
    – George
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    Yes exactly! You won't have too many smaller pairs, though. They generally don't want to 3-bet these hands pre-flop. But yeah you are right. But don't forget to check back some strong overpairs sometimes or your opponent can bluff you too easily.
    – Raymond Timmermans
    2 hours ago










  • For example AA or KK with a spade.
    – Raymond Timmermans
    2 hours ago

















up vote
1
down vote













The wording in the book is a bit confusing to me, and I had to re-read it a few times, but I think I got the gist. My take is that the book is saying this:



  • Continuation betting with any hand in a wide range is a bad idea

  • On flops that are unlikely to hit the opponent's range and our range, select hands that are unlikely to improve on the turn (overpairs like 99 TT JJ QQ) and could be beaten if an overcard comes on the turn.

  • with the bottom part of hero's range (JTs, QJs, KTs, KJs) hero should c-bet because if hero's hand does improve on the turn, it can be dominated by a lot of better hands.

This is all about balancing c-betting range, either player most likely does not connect with this flop, so it is important to know when to c-bet. The book is saying that you should not only bet with your over pairs, but also c-bet with the lower part of your range. That way, you are not only c-betting when you have a good hand, keeping your opponent on their toes.



Hands that you would not c-bet with on a board like this look something like AK, AQ, AJ, according to the book.






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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    2
    down vote



    accepted










    Basically what the author is trying to say is that you don't want to c-bet all your hands, because you will have to fold to a shove a lot of the time. Your opponent can abuse you this way. He proposes to use hero's overpairs as bets, since they will not improve on many turns. The hand strength will rarely change, so there is not much value for hero in seeing a turn. To balance out this value range we want to bet the hands that have the least amount of showdown, like JTs, 98s. Ace high hands like AK and AQ have showdown value and can hit a pair or a flush/flush draw more often than an overpair. They benefit more from seeing a turn and maybe getting to showdown, so they should check.



    So to get to your question. The author actually proposes to check a lot of ace high hands, because like you said, you have showdown value and want to get to the river. However your overpair hands are very strong. They will rarely be beat, so hero wants to bet for value.



    I agree with the author's strategy here, however I would advice to sometimes check aces or kings to have a stronger checking range.



    EDIT: so in short (and we can apply this to a lot of situations): bet your strongest and weakest hands to get value and folds respectively. Check your mediocre hands to get to showdown and avoid playing a massive pot, but include from time to time a very strong hand to strengthen your check back range.






    share|improve this answer






















    • So hands to c-bet in this spot: overpairs + hands that have very little showdown value (i.e. 98s). Hands to check: everything else, including smaller pairs, ace-high hands, king high hands, etc. Is this about right?
      – George
      2 hours ago






    • 1




      Yes exactly! You won't have too many smaller pairs, though. They generally don't want to 3-bet these hands pre-flop. But yeah you are right. But don't forget to check back some strong overpairs sometimes or your opponent can bluff you too easily.
      – Raymond Timmermans
      2 hours ago










    • For example AA or KK with a spade.
      – Raymond Timmermans
      2 hours ago














    up vote
    2
    down vote



    accepted










    Basically what the author is trying to say is that you don't want to c-bet all your hands, because you will have to fold to a shove a lot of the time. Your opponent can abuse you this way. He proposes to use hero's overpairs as bets, since they will not improve on many turns. The hand strength will rarely change, so there is not much value for hero in seeing a turn. To balance out this value range we want to bet the hands that have the least amount of showdown, like JTs, 98s. Ace high hands like AK and AQ have showdown value and can hit a pair or a flush/flush draw more often than an overpair. They benefit more from seeing a turn and maybe getting to showdown, so they should check.



    So to get to your question. The author actually proposes to check a lot of ace high hands, because like you said, you have showdown value and want to get to the river. However your overpair hands are very strong. They will rarely be beat, so hero wants to bet for value.



    I agree with the author's strategy here, however I would advice to sometimes check aces or kings to have a stronger checking range.



    EDIT: so in short (and we can apply this to a lot of situations): bet your strongest and weakest hands to get value and folds respectively. Check your mediocre hands to get to showdown and avoid playing a massive pot, but include from time to time a very strong hand to strengthen your check back range.






    share|improve this answer






















    • So hands to c-bet in this spot: overpairs + hands that have very little showdown value (i.e. 98s). Hands to check: everything else, including smaller pairs, ace-high hands, king high hands, etc. Is this about right?
      – George
      2 hours ago






    • 1




      Yes exactly! You won't have too many smaller pairs, though. They generally don't want to 3-bet these hands pre-flop. But yeah you are right. But don't forget to check back some strong overpairs sometimes or your opponent can bluff you too easily.
      – Raymond Timmermans
      2 hours ago










    • For example AA or KK with a spade.
      – Raymond Timmermans
      2 hours ago












    up vote
    2
    down vote



    accepted







    up vote
    2
    down vote



    accepted






    Basically what the author is trying to say is that you don't want to c-bet all your hands, because you will have to fold to a shove a lot of the time. Your opponent can abuse you this way. He proposes to use hero's overpairs as bets, since they will not improve on many turns. The hand strength will rarely change, so there is not much value for hero in seeing a turn. To balance out this value range we want to bet the hands that have the least amount of showdown, like JTs, 98s. Ace high hands like AK and AQ have showdown value and can hit a pair or a flush/flush draw more often than an overpair. They benefit more from seeing a turn and maybe getting to showdown, so they should check.



    So to get to your question. The author actually proposes to check a lot of ace high hands, because like you said, you have showdown value and want to get to the river. However your overpair hands are very strong. They will rarely be beat, so hero wants to bet for value.



    I agree with the author's strategy here, however I would advice to sometimes check aces or kings to have a stronger checking range.



    EDIT: so in short (and we can apply this to a lot of situations): bet your strongest and weakest hands to get value and folds respectively. Check your mediocre hands to get to showdown and avoid playing a massive pot, but include from time to time a very strong hand to strengthen your check back range.






    share|improve this answer














    Basically what the author is trying to say is that you don't want to c-bet all your hands, because you will have to fold to a shove a lot of the time. Your opponent can abuse you this way. He proposes to use hero's overpairs as bets, since they will not improve on many turns. The hand strength will rarely change, so there is not much value for hero in seeing a turn. To balance out this value range we want to bet the hands that have the least amount of showdown, like JTs, 98s. Ace high hands like AK and AQ have showdown value and can hit a pair or a flush/flush draw more often than an overpair. They benefit more from seeing a turn and maybe getting to showdown, so they should check.



    So to get to your question. The author actually proposes to check a lot of ace high hands, because like you said, you have showdown value and want to get to the river. However your overpair hands are very strong. They will rarely be beat, so hero wants to bet for value.



    I agree with the author's strategy here, however I would advice to sometimes check aces or kings to have a stronger checking range.



    EDIT: so in short (and we can apply this to a lot of situations): bet your strongest and weakest hands to get value and folds respectively. Check your mediocre hands to get to showdown and avoid playing a massive pot, but include from time to time a very strong hand to strengthen your check back range.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 2 hours ago

























    answered 2 hours ago









    Raymond Timmermans

    2,0371417




    2,0371417











    • So hands to c-bet in this spot: overpairs + hands that have very little showdown value (i.e. 98s). Hands to check: everything else, including smaller pairs, ace-high hands, king high hands, etc. Is this about right?
      – George
      2 hours ago






    • 1




      Yes exactly! You won't have too many smaller pairs, though. They generally don't want to 3-bet these hands pre-flop. But yeah you are right. But don't forget to check back some strong overpairs sometimes or your opponent can bluff you too easily.
      – Raymond Timmermans
      2 hours ago










    • For example AA or KK with a spade.
      – Raymond Timmermans
      2 hours ago
















    • So hands to c-bet in this spot: overpairs + hands that have very little showdown value (i.e. 98s). Hands to check: everything else, including smaller pairs, ace-high hands, king high hands, etc. Is this about right?
      – George
      2 hours ago






    • 1




      Yes exactly! You won't have too many smaller pairs, though. They generally don't want to 3-bet these hands pre-flop. But yeah you are right. But don't forget to check back some strong overpairs sometimes or your opponent can bluff you too easily.
      – Raymond Timmermans
      2 hours ago










    • For example AA or KK with a spade.
      – Raymond Timmermans
      2 hours ago















    So hands to c-bet in this spot: overpairs + hands that have very little showdown value (i.e. 98s). Hands to check: everything else, including smaller pairs, ace-high hands, king high hands, etc. Is this about right?
    – George
    2 hours ago




    So hands to c-bet in this spot: overpairs + hands that have very little showdown value (i.e. 98s). Hands to check: everything else, including smaller pairs, ace-high hands, king high hands, etc. Is this about right?
    – George
    2 hours ago




    1




    1




    Yes exactly! You won't have too many smaller pairs, though. They generally don't want to 3-bet these hands pre-flop. But yeah you are right. But don't forget to check back some strong overpairs sometimes or your opponent can bluff you too easily.
    – Raymond Timmermans
    2 hours ago




    Yes exactly! You won't have too many smaller pairs, though. They generally don't want to 3-bet these hands pre-flop. But yeah you are right. But don't forget to check back some strong overpairs sometimes or your opponent can bluff you too easily.
    – Raymond Timmermans
    2 hours ago












    For example AA or KK with a spade.
    – Raymond Timmermans
    2 hours ago




    For example AA or KK with a spade.
    – Raymond Timmermans
    2 hours ago










    up vote
    1
    down vote













    The wording in the book is a bit confusing to me, and I had to re-read it a few times, but I think I got the gist. My take is that the book is saying this:



    • Continuation betting with any hand in a wide range is a bad idea

    • On flops that are unlikely to hit the opponent's range and our range, select hands that are unlikely to improve on the turn (overpairs like 99 TT JJ QQ) and could be beaten if an overcard comes on the turn.

    • with the bottom part of hero's range (JTs, QJs, KTs, KJs) hero should c-bet because if hero's hand does improve on the turn, it can be dominated by a lot of better hands.

    This is all about balancing c-betting range, either player most likely does not connect with this flop, so it is important to know when to c-bet. The book is saying that you should not only bet with your over pairs, but also c-bet with the lower part of your range. That way, you are not only c-betting when you have a good hand, keeping your opponent on their toes.



    Hands that you would not c-bet with on a board like this look something like AK, AQ, AJ, according to the book.






    share|improve this answer
























      up vote
      1
      down vote













      The wording in the book is a bit confusing to me, and I had to re-read it a few times, but I think I got the gist. My take is that the book is saying this:



      • Continuation betting with any hand in a wide range is a bad idea

      • On flops that are unlikely to hit the opponent's range and our range, select hands that are unlikely to improve on the turn (overpairs like 99 TT JJ QQ) and could be beaten if an overcard comes on the turn.

      • with the bottom part of hero's range (JTs, QJs, KTs, KJs) hero should c-bet because if hero's hand does improve on the turn, it can be dominated by a lot of better hands.

      This is all about balancing c-betting range, either player most likely does not connect with this flop, so it is important to know when to c-bet. The book is saying that you should not only bet with your over pairs, but also c-bet with the lower part of your range. That way, you are not only c-betting when you have a good hand, keeping your opponent on their toes.



      Hands that you would not c-bet with on a board like this look something like AK, AQ, AJ, according to the book.






      share|improve this answer






















        up vote
        1
        down vote










        up vote
        1
        down vote









        The wording in the book is a bit confusing to me, and I had to re-read it a few times, but I think I got the gist. My take is that the book is saying this:



        • Continuation betting with any hand in a wide range is a bad idea

        • On flops that are unlikely to hit the opponent's range and our range, select hands that are unlikely to improve on the turn (overpairs like 99 TT JJ QQ) and could be beaten if an overcard comes on the turn.

        • with the bottom part of hero's range (JTs, QJs, KTs, KJs) hero should c-bet because if hero's hand does improve on the turn, it can be dominated by a lot of better hands.

        This is all about balancing c-betting range, either player most likely does not connect with this flop, so it is important to know when to c-bet. The book is saying that you should not only bet with your over pairs, but also c-bet with the lower part of your range. That way, you are not only c-betting when you have a good hand, keeping your opponent on their toes.



        Hands that you would not c-bet with on a board like this look something like AK, AQ, AJ, according to the book.






        share|improve this answer












        The wording in the book is a bit confusing to me, and I had to re-read it a few times, but I think I got the gist. My take is that the book is saying this:



        • Continuation betting with any hand in a wide range is a bad idea

        • On flops that are unlikely to hit the opponent's range and our range, select hands that are unlikely to improve on the turn (overpairs like 99 TT JJ QQ) and could be beaten if an overcard comes on the turn.

        • with the bottom part of hero's range (JTs, QJs, KTs, KJs) hero should c-bet because if hero's hand does improve on the turn, it can be dominated by a lot of better hands.

        This is all about balancing c-betting range, either player most likely does not connect with this flop, so it is important to know when to c-bet. The book is saying that you should not only bet with your over pairs, but also c-bet with the lower part of your range. That way, you are not only c-betting when you have a good hand, keeping your opponent on their toes.



        Hands that you would not c-bet with on a board like this look something like AK, AQ, AJ, according to the book.







        share|improve this answer












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        answered 23 mins ago









        Clarko

        90417




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