Mixing
Was the German V2 rocket the only weapon whose production killed more than its use?
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
up vote
4
down vote
favorite
Early in David Edgerton's history of technology, The Shock of the Old he discusses cost benefit analysis applied to some military weapons.
He argues, for example, that the US would have caused a lot more damage to Japan and might have ended the war earlier if they had used the budget for the Manhattan Project on more conventional bombers or other weapons (though he also admits that deterrence was later a significant benefit).
But one particular example of an apparently bad choice was particularly stark. The German V2 rocket cost far more than other, more useful, weapons. Worse, and very surprisingly he makes this claim:
The V2 'was a unique weapon', says its historian, Michael Neufeld, in that 'more people died producing it than died from being hit by it'.
This struck me as a fairly extreme claim. Is it true that its production killed more than its use and is the V2 unique in this statistic?
Note: since many weapons are developed but never used, the claim should apply only to weapons that have actually been used in war.
history world-war-ii weapons
asked 2 hours ago
matt_black
30.3k10123289
 |Â
show 8 more comments
up vote
4
down vote
favorite
Early in David Edgerton's history of technology, The Shock of the Old he discusses cost benefit analysis applied to some military weapons.
He argues, for example, that the US would have caused a lot more damage to Japan and might have ended the war earlier if they had used the budget for the Manhattan Project on more conventional bombers or other weapons (though he also admits that deterrence was later a significant benefit).
But one particular example of an apparently bad choice was particularly stark. The German V2 rocket cost far more than other, more useful, weapons. Worse, and very surprisingly he makes this claim:
The V2 'was a unique weapon', says its historian, Michael Neufeld, in that 'more people died producing it than died from being hit by it'.
This struck me as a fairly extreme claim. Is it true that its production killed more than its use and is the V2 unique in this statistic?
Note: since many weapons are developed but never used, the claim should apply only to weapons that have actually been used in war.
history world-war-ii weapons
asked 2 hours ago
matt_black
30.3k10123289
1
@DJClayworth If I wanted a discussion of the history of the V2 I would ask this on a history site. But I was interested in the specific statistical claim so it seemed OK here.
– matt_black
2 hours ago
2
I'm not sure if "unique" is to be taken literally here. Surely there must be weapons programs that have never been used in combat but still involved deaths in production. ICBMs or thermonuclear weapons, for instance.
– Nate Eldredge
2 hours ago
1
@NateEldredge I'm happy to restrict to weapons that have actually been used. Which I assumed was the context (otherwise, as you say, the answer would be trivial). And the claim of unique in that context struck me as worthy of a question.
– matt_black
2 hours ago
2
It's about finding the right community. The History site has lots of expert historians. This site does not. I suspect you are more likely to get speculation and hasty research on this site.
– DJClayworth
2 hours ago
1
@Daniel I think if you've got workers dying of overwork from creating the missiles, that counts. It's true that the nazis were super-inefficient with their workforce... but isn't that kind of the point? Admittedly, the numbers that were executed for various charges of treason/sedition/etc might not count as much.
– Ben Barden
1 hour ago
 |Â
show 8 more comments
up vote
4
down vote
favorite
up vote
4
down vote
favorite
Early in David Edgerton's history of technology, The Shock of the Old he discusses cost benefit analysis applied to some military weapons.
He argues, for example, that the US would have caused a lot more damage to Japan and might have ended the war earlier if they had used the budget for the Manhattan Project on more conventional bombers or other weapons (though he also admits that deterrence was later a significant benefit).
But one particular example of an apparently bad choice was particularly stark. The German V2 rocket cost far more than other, more useful, weapons. Worse, and very surprisingly he makes this claim:
The V2 'was a unique weapon', says its historian, Michael Neufeld, in that 'more people died producing it than died from being hit by it'.
This struck me as a fairly extreme claim. Is it true that its production killed more than its use and is the V2 unique in this statistic?
Note: since many weapons are developed but never used, the claim should apply only to weapons that have actually been used in war.
history world-war-ii weapons
asked 2 hours ago
matt_black
30.3k10123289
Early in David Edgerton's history of technology, The Shock of the Old he discusses cost benefit analysis applied to some military weapons.
He argues, for example, that the US would have caused a lot more damage to Japan and might have ended the war earlier if they had used the budget for the Manhattan Project on more conventional bombers or other weapons (though he also admits that deterrence was later a significant benefit).
But one particular example of an apparently bad choice was particularly stark. The German V2 rocket cost far more than other, more useful, weapons. Worse, and very surprisingly he makes this claim:
The V2 'was a unique weapon', says its historian, Michael Neufeld, in that 'more people died producing it than died from being hit by it'.
This struck me as a fairly extreme claim. Is it true that its production killed more than its use and is the V2 unique in this statistic?
Note: since many weapons are developed but never used, the claim should apply only to weapons that have actually been used in war.
history world-war-ii weapons
history world-war-ii weapons
asked 2 hours ago
matt_black
30.3k10123289
asked 2 hours ago
matt_black
30.3k10123289
edited 2 hours ago
asked 2 hours ago
matt_black
30.3k10123289
asked 2 hours ago
matt_black
30.3k10123289
asked 2 hours ago
matt_black
30.3k10123289
30.3k10123289
1
@DJClayworth If I wanted a discussion of the history of the V2 I would ask this on a history site. But I was interested in the specific statistical claim so it seemed OK here.
– matt_black
2 hours ago
2
I'm not sure if "unique" is to be taken literally here. Surely there must be weapons programs that have never been used in combat but still involved deaths in production. ICBMs or thermonuclear weapons, for instance.
– Nate Eldredge
2 hours ago
1
@NateEldredge I'm happy to restrict to weapons that have actually been used. Which I assumed was the context (otherwise, as you say, the answer would be trivial). And the claim of unique in that context struck me as worthy of a question.
– matt_black
2 hours ago
2
It's about finding the right community. The History site has lots of expert historians. This site does not. I suspect you are more likely to get speculation and hasty research on this site.
– DJClayworth
2 hours ago
1
@Daniel I think if you've got workers dying of overwork from creating the missiles, that counts. It's true that the nazis were super-inefficient with their workforce... but isn't that kind of the point? Admittedly, the numbers that were executed for various charges of treason/sedition/etc might not count as much.
– Ben Barden
1 hour ago
 |Â
show 8 more comments
1
@DJClayworth If I wanted a discussion of the history of the V2 I would ask this on a history site. But I was interested in the specific statistical claim so it seemed OK here.
– matt_black
2 hours ago
2
I'm not sure if "unique" is to be taken literally here. Surely there must be weapons programs that have never been used in combat but still involved deaths in production. ICBMs or thermonuclear weapons, for instance.
– Nate Eldredge
2 hours ago
1
@NateEldredge I'm happy to restrict to weapons that have actually been used. Which I assumed was the context (otherwise, as you say, the answer would be trivial). And the claim of unique in that context struck me as worthy of a question.
– matt_black
2 hours ago
2
It's about finding the right community. The History site has lots of expert historians. This site does not. I suspect you are more likely to get speculation and hasty research on this site.
– DJClayworth
2 hours ago
1
@Daniel I think if you've got workers dying of overwork from creating the missiles, that counts. It's true that the nazis were super-inefficient with their workforce... but isn't that kind of the point? Admittedly, the numbers that were executed for various charges of treason/sedition/etc might not count as much.
– Ben Barden
1 hour ago
1
1
@DJClayworth If I wanted a discussion of the history of the V2 I would ask this on a history site. But I was interested in the specific statistical claim so it seemed OK here.
– matt_black
2 hours ago
@DJClayworth If I wanted a discussion of the history of the V2 I would ask this on a history site. But I was interested in the specific statistical claim so it seemed OK here.
– matt_black
2 hours ago
2
2
I'm not sure if "unique" is to be taken literally here. Surely there must be weapons programs that have never been used in combat but still involved deaths in production. ICBMs or thermonuclear weapons, for instance.
– Nate Eldredge
2 hours ago
I'm not sure if "unique" is to be taken literally here. Surely there must be weapons programs that have never been used in combat but still involved deaths in production. ICBMs or thermonuclear weapons, for instance.
– Nate Eldredge
2 hours ago
1
1
@NateEldredge I'm happy to restrict to weapons that have actually been used. Which I assumed was the context (otherwise, as you say, the answer would be trivial). And the claim of unique in that context struck me as worthy of a question.
– matt_black
2 hours ago
@NateEldredge I'm happy to restrict to weapons that have actually been used. Which I assumed was the context (otherwise, as you say, the answer would be trivial). And the claim of unique in that context struck me as worthy of a question.
– matt_black
2 hours ago
2
2
It's about finding the right community. The History site has lots of expert historians. This site does not. I suspect you are more likely to get speculation and hasty research on this site.
– DJClayworth
2 hours ago
It's about finding the right community. The History site has lots of expert historians. This site does not. I suspect you are more likely to get speculation and hasty research on this site.
– DJClayworth
2 hours ago
1
1
@Daniel I think if you've got workers dying of overwork from creating the missiles, that counts. It's true that the nazis were super-inefficient with their workforce... but isn't that kind of the point? Admittedly, the numbers that were executed for various charges of treason/sedition/etc might not count as much.
– Ben Barden
1 hour ago
@Daniel I think if you've got workers dying of overwork from creating the missiles, that counts. It's true that the nazis were super-inefficient with their workforce... but isn't that kind of the point? Admittedly, the numbers that were executed for various charges of treason/sedition/etc might not count as much.
– Ben Barden
1 hour ago
 |Â
show 8 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
Tools of War: History of Weapons in Modern Times by Syed Ramsey claims that there was a 2011 BBC documentary stating numbers of 9000 killed in attacks, with 12000 forced laborers and concentration camp prisoners killed in production.
There's also A BBC News Magazine article stating that 9000 number directly. It mentions a mountain-factory in Germany that had 60,000 slave laborers - making the "forced laborer" death toll at least plausible, given how the Nazis were running things. It also notes that the V2 would have been much more effective if it had not been shut down so thoroughly by allied bombing.
Finally, the Daily Mail website states both numbers directly... for what that's worth. They may just be following along with the oft-referenced BBC numbers, but they have a number of other statistics that are not so broadly spread, so possibly not.
On something like "historical data on the V2 Rocket" I really don't think you're going to get much better than the BBC. It seems at least likely that there were more lives lost among the workers during production than there were lost to the attacks themselves. There is some potential for confusion, however. The workers were in a concentration camp environment, and there are some fuzzy questions about whether they'd all count. (Does it count if they're summarily executed while working? What about if that execution is intended primarily to motivate their fellows?)
I do not have an answer to the other, and I'm not convinced that it is answerable if true. Proving a negative is really very difficult at the best of times, and proving a negative in a matter of historical footnote is much moreso. It also somewhat depends on your definition of "weapon" - specifically in how distinct it has to be in order to not just get grouped in with other weapons of the same type. If a very specific make and model of cannon had some horrible laboratory accident, only produced one instance, and then had that instance spiked after being fired but without managing to do much damage, I can totally imagine that it would fit the answer... but I doubt it would be easy to find.
answered 1 hour ago
Ben Barden
1,8371410
Good points: Also define "laboral accident" in a prone to be bombarded and full of volatiles environment
– jean
1 hour ago
If it made itself a bombing target it was an effective weapon.
– Joshua
1 min ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
The director of the Mittelbau-Dora commemoration site is quoted with
Jens-Christian Wagner, director of the Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp memorial site, has thus "killed more prisoners in the production of the weapon than [other victims] in their deployment. This is unique; I don't think there was any other weapon that claimed so many lives during the production."
WP: Aggregat 4
In that article the numbers are given as:
Between September 1943 and April 1945, 16,000 and 20,000 concentration camp prisoners and forced laborers, most of them twenty to forty years old, died in the Mittelbau-Dora camp complex, on liquidation or so-called evacuation transports, according to conservative estimates. Approximately 8,000 people lost their lives using the weapon, most of them in the London and Antwerp area.
And that is the standard view:
Because of the conditions, deaths in the tunnels between November 1943 and March 1944 numbered almost three thousand. Beyond this toll, there were also another three thousand “muslims†(Muselmänner), prisoners unable to work because of grave illness, injury, or psychological shock. ese men were sent on to Bergen-Belsen or Maidanek with little chance of survival. […]
The completion of the barracks with washrooms in the spring and early summer of 1944 and other accommodations, including a sick bay staffed by medical personnel, while not adequate, was a large improvement over the murderous conditions of the tunnels. The number of deaths fluctuated drastically, lowering when the conditions improved and rising when new transports of prisoners arrived from the East.
Of the more than 5,000 V-2 rockets assembled in Kohnstein by the prisoners of Mittelbau-Dora, 1,500 of them landed in London and Southeast England, killing more than 2,000 people. Another 1,500 V-1 and V-2 weapons were aimed at Antwerp, Belgium, killing almost 7,000. It would appear that more prisoners died in the concentration camp serving Mittelwerk and further development of the “wonder weapons†than did helpless civilians in Germany’s enemy countries.
Gretchen Schafft & Gerhard Zeidler: "Commemorating Hell. The Public Memory of Mittelbau-Dora", University of Illinois Press:
Urbana, Chicago, and Springfield, 2011.
So it depends on your point of view of what you'd call "producing it". Most forced labourers did not die tightening a screw and slipping. Many died of sickness, hunger, malnutrition, maltreatment, overwork and total exhaustion etc.
From a rational strategists point of view that seems like an idiotic approach. Within Nazi ideology that views those lives not only as expandable but to be exterminated eventually anyway, if not through labour than by other means, this would make perfect sense. Given that not only the one concentration camp was involved in manufacturing the rocket, the death-toll for the rocket on German soil is likely even higher than most estimates:
In total, around 60,000 prisoners passed through the Mittelbau camps between August 1943 and March 1945. The precise number of people killed is impossible to determine. The SS files counted around 12,000 dead. In addition, an unknown number of unregistered prisoners died or were murdered in the camps. Around 5,000 sick and dying were sent in early 1944 and in March 1945 to Lublin and Bergen-Belsen.
WP: Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp
Given that the V2 killed more prisoners – or people working for Germany – than enemy civilians one might rephrase the question to whether any other weapon killed more of its own people in some kind of broad interpretation of friendly fire?
The answer to that might be found in Amerithrax attacks. American made weapons grade anthrax was never used against official enemies, but against
Victims:
Stevens, Bob - photo editor at American Media Inc, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 5, 2001
Curseen, Joseph Jr. - DC area postal worker, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 22, 2001
Morris, Thomas Jr. - DC postal worker, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 21, 2001
Nguyen, Kathy - employee at Manhattan hospital, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 31, 2001
Lundgren, Ottilie - Connecticut woman, dies of inhalation anthrax, November 22, 2001
Also compare that to Anthrax: full list of cases.
answered 29 mins ago
LangLangC
12.2k45770
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
Tools of War: History of Weapons in Modern Times by Syed Ramsey claims that there was a 2011 BBC documentary stating numbers of 9000 killed in attacks, with 12000 forced laborers and concentration camp prisoners killed in production.
There's also A BBC News Magazine article stating that 9000 number directly. It mentions a mountain-factory in Germany that had 60,000 slave laborers - making the "forced laborer" death toll at least plausible, given how the Nazis were running things. It also notes that the V2 would have been much more effective if it had not been shut down so thoroughly by allied bombing.
Finally, the Daily Mail website states both numbers directly... for what that's worth. They may just be following along with the oft-referenced BBC numbers, but they have a number of other statistics that are not so broadly spread, so possibly not.
On something like "historical data on the V2 Rocket" I really don't think you're going to get much better than the BBC. It seems at least likely that there were more lives lost among the workers during production than there were lost to the attacks themselves. There is some potential for confusion, however. The workers were in a concentration camp environment, and there are some fuzzy questions about whether they'd all count. (Does it count if they're summarily executed while working? What about if that execution is intended primarily to motivate their fellows?)
I do not have an answer to the other, and I'm not convinced that it is answerable if true. Proving a negative is really very difficult at the best of times, and proving a negative in a matter of historical footnote is much moreso. It also somewhat depends on your definition of "weapon" - specifically in how distinct it has to be in order to not just get grouped in with other weapons of the same type. If a very specific make and model of cannon had some horrible laboratory accident, only produced one instance, and then had that instance spiked after being fired but without managing to do much damage, I can totally imagine that it would fit the answer... but I doubt it would be easy to find.
answered 1 hour ago
Ben Barden
1,8371410
Good points: Also define "laboral accident" in a prone to be bombarded and full of volatiles environment
– jean
1 hour ago
If it made itself a bombing target it was an effective weapon.
– Joshua
1 min ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
Tools of War: History of Weapons in Modern Times by Syed Ramsey claims that there was a 2011 BBC documentary stating numbers of 9000 killed in attacks, with 12000 forced laborers and concentration camp prisoners killed in production.
There's also A BBC News Magazine article stating that 9000 number directly. It mentions a mountain-factory in Germany that had 60,000 slave laborers - making the "forced laborer" death toll at least plausible, given how the Nazis were running things. It also notes that the V2 would have been much more effective if it had not been shut down so thoroughly by allied bombing.
Finally, the Daily Mail website states both numbers directly... for what that's worth. They may just be following along with the oft-referenced BBC numbers, but they have a number of other statistics that are not so broadly spread, so possibly not.
On something like "historical data on the V2 Rocket" I really don't think you're going to get much better than the BBC. It seems at least likely that there were more lives lost among the workers during production than there were lost to the attacks themselves. There is some potential for confusion, however. The workers were in a concentration camp environment, and there are some fuzzy questions about whether they'd all count. (Does it count if they're summarily executed while working? What about if that execution is intended primarily to motivate their fellows?)
I do not have an answer to the other, and I'm not convinced that it is answerable if true. Proving a negative is really very difficult at the best of times, and proving a negative in a matter of historical footnote is much moreso. It also somewhat depends on your definition of "weapon" - specifically in how distinct it has to be in order to not just get grouped in with other weapons of the same type. If a very specific make and model of cannon had some horrible laboratory accident, only produced one instance, and then had that instance spiked after being fired but without managing to do much damage, I can totally imagine that it would fit the answer... but I doubt it would be easy to find.
answered 1 hour ago
Ben Barden
1,8371410
Good points: Also define "laboral accident" in a prone to be bombarded and full of volatiles environment
– jean
1 hour ago
If it made itself a bombing target it was an effective weapon.
– Joshua
1 min ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Tools of War: History of Weapons in Modern Times by Syed Ramsey claims that there was a 2011 BBC documentary stating numbers of 9000 killed in attacks, with 12000 forced laborers and concentration camp prisoners killed in production.
There's also A BBC News Magazine article stating that 9000 number directly. It mentions a mountain-factory in Germany that had 60,000 slave laborers - making the "forced laborer" death toll at least plausible, given how the Nazis were running things. It also notes that the V2 would have been much more effective if it had not been shut down so thoroughly by allied bombing.
Finally, the Daily Mail website states both numbers directly... for what that's worth. They may just be following along with the oft-referenced BBC numbers, but they have a number of other statistics that are not so broadly spread, so possibly not.
On something like "historical data on the V2 Rocket" I really don't think you're going to get much better than the BBC. It seems at least likely that there were more lives lost among the workers during production than there were lost to the attacks themselves. There is some potential for confusion, however. The workers were in a concentration camp environment, and there are some fuzzy questions about whether they'd all count. (Does it count if they're summarily executed while working? What about if that execution is intended primarily to motivate their fellows?)
I do not have an answer to the other, and I'm not convinced that it is answerable if true. Proving a negative is really very difficult at the best of times, and proving a negative in a matter of historical footnote is much moreso. It also somewhat depends on your definition of "weapon" - specifically in how distinct it has to be in order to not just get grouped in with other weapons of the same type. If a very specific make and model of cannon had some horrible laboratory accident, only produced one instance, and then had that instance spiked after being fired but without managing to do much damage, I can totally imagine that it would fit the answer... but I doubt it would be easy to find.
answered 1 hour ago
Ben Barden
1,8371410
Tools of War: History of Weapons in Modern Times by Syed Ramsey claims that there was a 2011 BBC documentary stating numbers of 9000 killed in attacks, with 12000 forced laborers and concentration camp prisoners killed in production.
There's also A BBC News Magazine article stating that 9000 number directly. It mentions a mountain-factory in Germany that had 60,000 slave laborers - making the "forced laborer" death toll at least plausible, given how the Nazis were running things. It also notes that the V2 would have been much more effective if it had not been shut down so thoroughly by allied bombing.
Finally, the Daily Mail website states both numbers directly... for what that's worth. They may just be following along with the oft-referenced BBC numbers, but they have a number of other statistics that are not so broadly spread, so possibly not.
On something like "historical data on the V2 Rocket" I really don't think you're going to get much better than the BBC. It seems at least likely that there were more lives lost among the workers during production than there were lost to the attacks themselves. There is some potential for confusion, however. The workers were in a concentration camp environment, and there are some fuzzy questions about whether they'd all count. (Does it count if they're summarily executed while working? What about if that execution is intended primarily to motivate their fellows?)
I do not have an answer to the other, and I'm not convinced that it is answerable if true. Proving a negative is really very difficult at the best of times, and proving a negative in a matter of historical footnote is much moreso. It also somewhat depends on your definition of "weapon" - specifically in how distinct it has to be in order to not just get grouped in with other weapons of the same type. If a very specific make and model of cannon had some horrible laboratory accident, only produced one instance, and then had that instance spiked after being fired but without managing to do much damage, I can totally imagine that it would fit the answer... but I doubt it would be easy to find.
answered 1 hour ago
Ben Barden
1,8371410
edited 1 hour ago
answered 1 hour ago
Ben Barden
1,8371410
answered 1 hour ago
Ben Barden
1,8371410
answered 1 hour ago
Ben Barden
1,8371410
1,8371410
Good points: Also define "laboral accident" in a prone to be bombarded and full of volatiles environment
– jean
1 hour ago
If it made itself a bombing target it was an effective weapon.
– Joshua
1 min ago
add a comment |Â
Good points: Also define "laboral accident" in a prone to be bombarded and full of volatiles environment
– jean
1 hour ago
If it made itself a bombing target it was an effective weapon.
– Joshua
1 min ago
Good points: Also define "laboral accident" in a prone to be bombarded and full of volatiles environment
– jean
1 hour ago
Good points: Also define "laboral accident" in a prone to be bombarded and full of volatiles environment
– jean
1 hour ago
If it made itself a bombing target it was an effective weapon.
– Joshua
1 min ago
If it made itself a bombing target it was an effective weapon.
– Joshua
1 min ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
The director of the Mittelbau-Dora commemoration site is quoted with
Jens-Christian Wagner, director of the Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp memorial site, has thus "killed more prisoners in the production of the weapon than [other victims] in their deployment. This is unique; I don't think there was any other weapon that claimed so many lives during the production."
WP: Aggregat 4
In that article the numbers are given as:
Between September 1943 and April 1945, 16,000 and 20,000 concentration camp prisoners and forced laborers, most of them twenty to forty years old, died in the Mittelbau-Dora camp complex, on liquidation or so-called evacuation transports, according to conservative estimates. Approximately 8,000 people lost their lives using the weapon, most of them in the London and Antwerp area.
And that is the standard view:
Because of the conditions, deaths in the tunnels between November 1943 and March 1944 numbered almost three thousand. Beyond this toll, there were also another three thousand “muslims†(Muselmänner), prisoners unable to work because of grave illness, injury, or psychological shock. ese men were sent on to Bergen-Belsen or Maidanek with little chance of survival. […]
The completion of the barracks with washrooms in the spring and early summer of 1944 and other accommodations, including a sick bay staffed by medical personnel, while not adequate, was a large improvement over the murderous conditions of the tunnels. The number of deaths fluctuated drastically, lowering when the conditions improved and rising when new transports of prisoners arrived from the East.
Of the more than 5,000 V-2 rockets assembled in Kohnstein by the prisoners of Mittelbau-Dora, 1,500 of them landed in London and Southeast England, killing more than 2,000 people. Another 1,500 V-1 and V-2 weapons were aimed at Antwerp, Belgium, killing almost 7,000. It would appear that more prisoners died in the concentration camp serving Mittelwerk and further development of the “wonder weapons†than did helpless civilians in Germany’s enemy countries.
Gretchen Schafft & Gerhard Zeidler: "Commemorating Hell. The Public Memory of Mittelbau-Dora", University of Illinois Press:
Urbana, Chicago, and Springfield, 2011.
So it depends on your point of view of what you'd call "producing it". Most forced labourers did not die tightening a screw and slipping. Many died of sickness, hunger, malnutrition, maltreatment, overwork and total exhaustion etc.
From a rational strategists point of view that seems like an idiotic approach. Within Nazi ideology that views those lives not only as expandable but to be exterminated eventually anyway, if not through labour than by other means, this would make perfect sense. Given that not only the one concentration camp was involved in manufacturing the rocket, the death-toll for the rocket on German soil is likely even higher than most estimates:
In total, around 60,000 prisoners passed through the Mittelbau camps between August 1943 and March 1945. The precise number of people killed is impossible to determine. The SS files counted around 12,000 dead. In addition, an unknown number of unregistered prisoners died or were murdered in the camps. Around 5,000 sick and dying were sent in early 1944 and in March 1945 to Lublin and Bergen-Belsen.
WP: Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp
Given that the V2 killed more prisoners – or people working for Germany – than enemy civilians one might rephrase the question to whether any other weapon killed more of its own people in some kind of broad interpretation of friendly fire?
The answer to that might be found in Amerithrax attacks. American made weapons grade anthrax was never used against official enemies, but against
Victims:
Stevens, Bob - photo editor at American Media Inc, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 5, 2001
Curseen, Joseph Jr. - DC area postal worker, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 22, 2001
Morris, Thomas Jr. - DC postal worker, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 21, 2001
Nguyen, Kathy - employee at Manhattan hospital, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 31, 2001
Lundgren, Ottilie - Connecticut woman, dies of inhalation anthrax, November 22, 2001
Also compare that to Anthrax: full list of cases.
answered 29 mins ago
LangLangC
12.2k45770
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
The director of the Mittelbau-Dora commemoration site is quoted with
Jens-Christian Wagner, director of the Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp memorial site, has thus "killed more prisoners in the production of the weapon than [other victims] in their deployment. This is unique; I don't think there was any other weapon that claimed so many lives during the production."
WP: Aggregat 4
In that article the numbers are given as:
Between September 1943 and April 1945, 16,000 and 20,000 concentration camp prisoners and forced laborers, most of them twenty to forty years old, died in the Mittelbau-Dora camp complex, on liquidation or so-called evacuation transports, according to conservative estimates. Approximately 8,000 people lost their lives using the weapon, most of them in the London and Antwerp area.
And that is the standard view:
Because of the conditions, deaths in the tunnels between November 1943 and March 1944 numbered almost three thousand. Beyond this toll, there were also another three thousand “muslims†(Muselmänner), prisoners unable to work because of grave illness, injury, or psychological shock. ese men were sent on to Bergen-Belsen or Maidanek with little chance of survival. […]
The completion of the barracks with washrooms in the spring and early summer of 1944 and other accommodations, including a sick bay staffed by medical personnel, while not adequate, was a large improvement over the murderous conditions of the tunnels. The number of deaths fluctuated drastically, lowering when the conditions improved and rising when new transports of prisoners arrived from the East.
Of the more than 5,000 V-2 rockets assembled in Kohnstein by the prisoners of Mittelbau-Dora, 1,500 of them landed in London and Southeast England, killing more than 2,000 people. Another 1,500 V-1 and V-2 weapons were aimed at Antwerp, Belgium, killing almost 7,000. It would appear that more prisoners died in the concentration camp serving Mittelwerk and further development of the “wonder weapons†than did helpless civilians in Germany’s enemy countries.
Gretchen Schafft & Gerhard Zeidler: "Commemorating Hell. The Public Memory of Mittelbau-Dora", University of Illinois Press:
Urbana, Chicago, and Springfield, 2011.
So it depends on your point of view of what you'd call "producing it". Most forced labourers did not die tightening a screw and slipping. Many died of sickness, hunger, malnutrition, maltreatment, overwork and total exhaustion etc.
From a rational strategists point of view that seems like an idiotic approach. Within Nazi ideology that views those lives not only as expandable but to be exterminated eventually anyway, if not through labour than by other means, this would make perfect sense. Given that not only the one concentration camp was involved in manufacturing the rocket, the death-toll for the rocket on German soil is likely even higher than most estimates:
In total, around 60,000 prisoners passed through the Mittelbau camps between August 1943 and March 1945. The precise number of people killed is impossible to determine. The SS files counted around 12,000 dead. In addition, an unknown number of unregistered prisoners died or were murdered in the camps. Around 5,000 sick and dying were sent in early 1944 and in March 1945 to Lublin and Bergen-Belsen.
WP: Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp
Given that the V2 killed more prisoners – or people working for Germany – than enemy civilians one might rephrase the question to whether any other weapon killed more of its own people in some kind of broad interpretation of friendly fire?
The answer to that might be found in Amerithrax attacks. American made weapons grade anthrax was never used against official enemies, but against
Victims:
Stevens, Bob - photo editor at American Media Inc, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 5, 2001
Curseen, Joseph Jr. - DC area postal worker, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 22, 2001
Morris, Thomas Jr. - DC postal worker, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 21, 2001
Nguyen, Kathy - employee at Manhattan hospital, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 31, 2001
Lundgren, Ottilie - Connecticut woman, dies of inhalation anthrax, November 22, 2001
Also compare that to Anthrax: full list of cases.
answered 29 mins ago
LangLangC
12.2k45770
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
The director of the Mittelbau-Dora commemoration site is quoted with
Jens-Christian Wagner, director of the Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp memorial site, has thus "killed more prisoners in the production of the weapon than [other victims] in their deployment. This is unique; I don't think there was any other weapon that claimed so many lives during the production."
WP: Aggregat 4
In that article the numbers are given as:
Between September 1943 and April 1945, 16,000 and 20,000 concentration camp prisoners and forced laborers, most of them twenty to forty years old, died in the Mittelbau-Dora camp complex, on liquidation or so-called evacuation transports, according to conservative estimates. Approximately 8,000 people lost their lives using the weapon, most of them in the London and Antwerp area.
And that is the standard view:
Because of the conditions, deaths in the tunnels between November 1943 and March 1944 numbered almost three thousand. Beyond this toll, there were also another three thousand “muslims†(Muselmänner), prisoners unable to work because of grave illness, injury, or psychological shock. ese men were sent on to Bergen-Belsen or Maidanek with little chance of survival. […]
The completion of the barracks with washrooms in the spring and early summer of 1944 and other accommodations, including a sick bay staffed by medical personnel, while not adequate, was a large improvement over the murderous conditions of the tunnels. The number of deaths fluctuated drastically, lowering when the conditions improved and rising when new transports of prisoners arrived from the East.
Of the more than 5,000 V-2 rockets assembled in Kohnstein by the prisoners of Mittelbau-Dora, 1,500 of them landed in London and Southeast England, killing more than 2,000 people. Another 1,500 V-1 and V-2 weapons were aimed at Antwerp, Belgium, killing almost 7,000. It would appear that more prisoners died in the concentration camp serving Mittelwerk and further development of the “wonder weapons†than did helpless civilians in Germany’s enemy countries.
Gretchen Schafft & Gerhard Zeidler: "Commemorating Hell. The Public Memory of Mittelbau-Dora", University of Illinois Press:
Urbana, Chicago, and Springfield, 2011.
So it depends on your point of view of what you'd call "producing it". Most forced labourers did not die tightening a screw and slipping. Many died of sickness, hunger, malnutrition, maltreatment, overwork and total exhaustion etc.
From a rational strategists point of view that seems like an idiotic approach. Within Nazi ideology that views those lives not only as expandable but to be exterminated eventually anyway, if not through labour than by other means, this would make perfect sense. Given that not only the one concentration camp was involved in manufacturing the rocket, the death-toll for the rocket on German soil is likely even higher than most estimates:
In total, around 60,000 prisoners passed through the Mittelbau camps between August 1943 and March 1945. The precise number of people killed is impossible to determine. The SS files counted around 12,000 dead. In addition, an unknown number of unregistered prisoners died or were murdered in the camps. Around 5,000 sick and dying were sent in early 1944 and in March 1945 to Lublin and Bergen-Belsen.
WP: Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp
Given that the V2 killed more prisoners – or people working for Germany – than enemy civilians one might rephrase the question to whether any other weapon killed more of its own people in some kind of broad interpretation of friendly fire?
The answer to that might be found in Amerithrax attacks. American made weapons grade anthrax was never used against official enemies, but against
Victims:
Stevens, Bob - photo editor at American Media Inc, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 5, 2001
Curseen, Joseph Jr. - DC area postal worker, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 22, 2001
Morris, Thomas Jr. - DC postal worker, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 21, 2001
Nguyen, Kathy - employee at Manhattan hospital, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 31, 2001
Lundgren, Ottilie - Connecticut woman, dies of inhalation anthrax, November 22, 2001
Also compare that to Anthrax: full list of cases.
answered 29 mins ago
LangLangC
12.2k45770
The director of the Mittelbau-Dora commemoration site is quoted with
Jens-Christian Wagner, director of the Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp memorial site, has thus "killed more prisoners in the production of the weapon than [other victims] in their deployment. This is unique; I don't think there was any other weapon that claimed so many lives during the production."
WP: Aggregat 4
In that article the numbers are given as:
Between September 1943 and April 1945, 16,000 and 20,000 concentration camp prisoners and forced laborers, most of them twenty to forty years old, died in the Mittelbau-Dora camp complex, on liquidation or so-called evacuation transports, according to conservative estimates. Approximately 8,000 people lost their lives using the weapon, most of them in the London and Antwerp area.
And that is the standard view:
Because of the conditions, deaths in the tunnels between November 1943 and March 1944 numbered almost three thousand. Beyond this toll, there were also another three thousand “muslims†(Muselmänner), prisoners unable to work because of grave illness, injury, or psychological shock. ese men were sent on to Bergen-Belsen or Maidanek with little chance of survival. […]
The completion of the barracks with washrooms in the spring and early summer of 1944 and other accommodations, including a sick bay staffed by medical personnel, while not adequate, was a large improvement over the murderous conditions of the tunnels. The number of deaths fluctuated drastically, lowering when the conditions improved and rising when new transports of prisoners arrived from the East.
Of the more than 5,000 V-2 rockets assembled in Kohnstein by the prisoners of Mittelbau-Dora, 1,500 of them landed in London and Southeast England, killing more than 2,000 people. Another 1,500 V-1 and V-2 weapons were aimed at Antwerp, Belgium, killing almost 7,000. It would appear that more prisoners died in the concentration camp serving Mittelwerk and further development of the “wonder weapons†than did helpless civilians in Germany’s enemy countries.
Gretchen Schafft & Gerhard Zeidler: "Commemorating Hell. The Public Memory of Mittelbau-Dora", University of Illinois Press:
Urbana, Chicago, and Springfield, 2011.
So it depends on your point of view of what you'd call "producing it". Most forced labourers did not die tightening a screw and slipping. Many died of sickness, hunger, malnutrition, maltreatment, overwork and total exhaustion etc.
From a rational strategists point of view that seems like an idiotic approach. Within Nazi ideology that views those lives not only as expandable but to be exterminated eventually anyway, if not through labour than by other means, this would make perfect sense. Given that not only the one concentration camp was involved in manufacturing the rocket, the death-toll for the rocket on German soil is likely even higher than most estimates:
In total, around 60,000 prisoners passed through the Mittelbau camps between August 1943 and March 1945. The precise number of people killed is impossible to determine. The SS files counted around 12,000 dead. In addition, an unknown number of unregistered prisoners died or were murdered in the camps. Around 5,000 sick and dying were sent in early 1944 and in March 1945 to Lublin and Bergen-Belsen.
WP: Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp
Given that the V2 killed more prisoners – or people working for Germany – than enemy civilians one might rephrase the question to whether any other weapon killed more of its own people in some kind of broad interpretation of friendly fire?
The answer to that might be found in Amerithrax attacks. American made weapons grade anthrax was never used against official enemies, but against
Victims:
Stevens, Bob - photo editor at American Media Inc, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 5, 2001
Curseen, Joseph Jr. - DC area postal worker, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 22, 2001
Morris, Thomas Jr. - DC postal worker, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 21, 2001
Nguyen, Kathy - employee at Manhattan hospital, dies of inhalation anthrax, October 31, 2001
Lundgren, Ottilie - Connecticut woman, dies of inhalation anthrax, November 22, 2001
Also compare that to Anthrax: full list of cases.
answered 29 mins ago
LangLangC
12.2k45770
edited 5 mins ago
answered 29 mins ago
LangLangC
12.2k45770
answered 29 mins ago
LangLangC
12.2k45770
answered 29 mins ago
LangLangC
12.2k45770
12.2k45770
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
1
@DJClayworth If I wanted a discussion of the history of the V2 I would ask this on a history site. But I was interested in the specific statistical claim so it seemed OK here.
– matt_black
2 hours ago
2
I'm not sure if "unique" is to be taken literally here. Surely there must be weapons programs that have never been used in combat but still involved deaths in production. ICBMs or thermonuclear weapons, for instance.
– Nate Eldredge
2 hours ago
1
@NateEldredge I'm happy to restrict to weapons that have actually been used. Which I assumed was the context (otherwise, as you say, the answer would be trivial). And the claim of unique in that context struck me as worthy of a question.
– matt_black
2 hours ago
2
It's about finding the right community. The History site has lots of expert historians. This site does not. I suspect you are more likely to get speculation and hasty research on this site.
– DJClayworth
2 hours ago
1
@Daniel I think if you've got workers dying of overwork from creating the missiles, that counts. It's true that the nazis were super-inefficient with their workforce... but isn't that kind of the point? Admittedly, the numbers that were executed for various charges of treason/sedition/etc might not count as much.
– Ben Barden
1 hour ago