Mixing
Scottish, English, why not *Walish?
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As the title question asks, and particularly in light of the Old English word wælisc apparently used to refer to "Welsh", when, why, and how did the English adjective meaning "of or relating to Wales" become "Welsh"? In particular:
Which of the apparently l Old English forms made it into Middle English?
Where (ie, what's the first Middle English appearance)?
Did the vowel change already worst) appear by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later?
Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to Middle English e?
In other words, when I ask "when, how, and why", I'm looking for a many details as possible of the historical and phonological process involved.
etymology vowels old-english
asked 1 hour ago
Matt Gutting
5,6072235
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
As the title question asks, and particularly in light of the Old English word wælisc apparently used to refer to "Welsh", when, why, and how did the English adjective meaning "of or relating to Wales" become "Welsh"? In particular:
Which of the apparently l Old English forms made it into Middle English?
Where (ie, what's the first Middle English appearance)?
Did the vowel change already worst) appear by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later?
Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to Middle English e?
In other words, when I ask "when, how, and why", I'm looking for a many details as possible of the historical and phonological process involved.
etymology vowels old-english
asked 1 hour ago
Matt Gutting
5,6072235
Perhaps if it were called Walland and not Wales.
– Ian MacDonald
11 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
As the title question asks, and particularly in light of the Old English word wælisc apparently used to refer to "Welsh", when, why, and how did the English adjective meaning "of or relating to Wales" become "Welsh"? In particular:
Which of the apparently l Old English forms made it into Middle English?
Where (ie, what's the first Middle English appearance)?
Did the vowel change already worst) appear by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later?
Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to Middle English e?
In other words, when I ask "when, how, and why", I'm looking for a many details as possible of the historical and phonological process involved.
etymology vowels old-english
asked 1 hour ago
Matt Gutting
5,6072235
As the title question asks, and particularly in light of the Old English word wælisc apparently used to refer to "Welsh", when, why, and how did the English adjective meaning "of or relating to Wales" become "Welsh"? In particular:
Which of the apparently l Old English forms made it into Middle English?
Where (ie, what's the first Middle English appearance)?
Did the vowel change already worst) appear by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later?
Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to Middle English e?
In other words, when I ask "when, how, and why", I'm looking for a many details as possible of the historical and phonological process involved.
etymology vowels old-english
etymology vowels old-english
asked 1 hour ago
Matt Gutting
5,6072235
asked 1 hour ago
Matt Gutting
5,6072235
edited 16 mins ago
asked 1 hour ago
Matt Gutting
5,6072235
asked 1 hour ago
Matt Gutting
5,6072235
asked 1 hour ago
Matt Gutting
5,6072235
5,6072235
Perhaps if it were called Walland and not Wales.
– Ian MacDonald
11 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Perhaps if it were called Walland and not Wales.
– Ian MacDonald
11 mins ago
Perhaps if it were called Walland and not Wales.
– Ian MacDonald
11 mins ago
Perhaps if it were called Walland and not Wales.
– Ian MacDonald
11 mins ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
5
down vote
It actually used to be some form of "Walish" that has since been contracted:
Welsh Old English Wielisc, Wylisc (West Saxon), Welisc, Wælisc (Anglian and Kentish);
but it actually meant "foreign" or, more properly, "not Anglo-Saxon"; the Welsh called their country something else, and do to this day. In the Welsh language it's not Wales but Cymru.
Etymonline.
answered 59 mins ago
Robusto
125k27295505
1
I was intrigued by OED's Old English Wealh , (Anglian) Walh foreigner, Briton, Welsh person, slave, is cognate with Old High German Walh , Walah speaker of a Romance language (Middle High German Walch , Walhe foreigner, speaker of a Romance language, specifically Frenchman or Italian, German †Wahle ), Middle Dutch Wale speaker of a Romance language, specifically Walloon or Frenchman (Dutch Waal Walloon, speaker of a Romance language, especially French; compare the Old Dutch byname Wal , Walo )... Never knew the Welsh roots stretched that far east!
– FumbleFingers
56 mins ago
@FumbleFingers: Walloon is kind of an a-hah moment for me.
– Robusto
52 mins ago
So was the Anglian form definitely the one that made it into Middle English? Was the vowel change set by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later? Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to later e? I'll edit those questions into my main one - that's really what I wanted to know.
– Matt Gutting
22 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Note that Scottish has the contracted form “Scotch†(also “Scotsâ€Â, where the use of /s/ is I think a Scottish feature).
I would guess that the consonant cluster in the middle of “English†inhibited the development of any monosyllabic contracted forms—“Englsh†is not exactly a validly formed syllable in English.
Alongside Welsh we have French and Dutch (although in Dutch the contraction happened before the word entered English).
answered 44 mins ago
sumelic
43.2k6102203
And the vowel quality change after w?
– Matt Gutting
13 mins ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
5
down vote
It actually used to be some form of "Walish" that has since been contracted:
Welsh Old English Wielisc, Wylisc (West Saxon), Welisc, Wælisc (Anglian and Kentish);
but it actually meant "foreign" or, more properly, "not Anglo-Saxon"; the Welsh called their country something else, and do to this day. In the Welsh language it's not Wales but Cymru.
Etymonline.
answered 59 mins ago
Robusto
125k27295505
1
I was intrigued by OED's Old English Wealh , (Anglian) Walh foreigner, Briton, Welsh person, slave, is cognate with Old High German Walh , Walah speaker of a Romance language (Middle High German Walch , Walhe foreigner, speaker of a Romance language, specifically Frenchman or Italian, German †Wahle ), Middle Dutch Wale speaker of a Romance language, specifically Walloon or Frenchman (Dutch Waal Walloon, speaker of a Romance language, especially French; compare the Old Dutch byname Wal , Walo )... Never knew the Welsh roots stretched that far east!
– FumbleFingers
56 mins ago
@FumbleFingers: Walloon is kind of an a-hah moment for me.
– Robusto
52 mins ago
So was the Anglian form definitely the one that made it into Middle English? Was the vowel change set by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later? Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to later e? I'll edit those questions into my main one - that's really what I wanted to know.
– Matt Gutting
22 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
5
down vote
It actually used to be some form of "Walish" that has since been contracted:
Welsh Old English Wielisc, Wylisc (West Saxon), Welisc, Wælisc (Anglian and Kentish);
but it actually meant "foreign" or, more properly, "not Anglo-Saxon"; the Welsh called their country something else, and do to this day. In the Welsh language it's not Wales but Cymru.
Etymonline.
answered 59 mins ago
Robusto
125k27295505
1
I was intrigued by OED's Old English Wealh , (Anglian) Walh foreigner, Briton, Welsh person, slave, is cognate with Old High German Walh , Walah speaker of a Romance language (Middle High German Walch , Walhe foreigner, speaker of a Romance language, specifically Frenchman or Italian, German †Wahle ), Middle Dutch Wale speaker of a Romance language, specifically Walloon or Frenchman (Dutch Waal Walloon, speaker of a Romance language, especially French; compare the Old Dutch byname Wal , Walo )... Never knew the Welsh roots stretched that far east!
– FumbleFingers
56 mins ago
@FumbleFingers: Walloon is kind of an a-hah moment for me.
– Robusto
52 mins ago
So was the Anglian form definitely the one that made it into Middle English? Was the vowel change set by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later? Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to later e? I'll edit those questions into my main one - that's really what I wanted to know.
– Matt Gutting
22 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
5
down vote
up vote
5
down vote
It actually used to be some form of "Walish" that has since been contracted:
Welsh Old English Wielisc, Wylisc (West Saxon), Welisc, Wælisc (Anglian and Kentish);
but it actually meant "foreign" or, more properly, "not Anglo-Saxon"; the Welsh called their country something else, and do to this day. In the Welsh language it's not Wales but Cymru.
Etymonline.
answered 59 mins ago
Robusto
125k27295505
It actually used to be some form of "Walish" that has since been contracted:
Welsh Old English Wielisc, Wylisc (West Saxon), Welisc, Wælisc (Anglian and Kentish);
but it actually meant "foreign" or, more properly, "not Anglo-Saxon"; the Welsh called their country something else, and do to this day. In the Welsh language it's not Wales but Cymru.
Etymonline.
answered 59 mins ago
Robusto
125k27295505
answered 59 mins ago
Robusto
125k27295505
answered 59 mins ago
Robusto
125k27295505
answered 59 mins ago
Robusto
125k27295505
125k27295505
1
I was intrigued by OED's Old English Wealh , (Anglian) Walh foreigner, Briton, Welsh person, slave, is cognate with Old High German Walh , Walah speaker of a Romance language (Middle High German Walch , Walhe foreigner, speaker of a Romance language, specifically Frenchman or Italian, German †Wahle ), Middle Dutch Wale speaker of a Romance language, specifically Walloon or Frenchman (Dutch Waal Walloon, speaker of a Romance language, especially French; compare the Old Dutch byname Wal , Walo )... Never knew the Welsh roots stretched that far east!
– FumbleFingers
56 mins ago
@FumbleFingers: Walloon is kind of an a-hah moment for me.
– Robusto
52 mins ago
So was the Anglian form definitely the one that made it into Middle English? Was the vowel change set by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later? Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to later e? I'll edit those questions into my main one - that's really what I wanted to know.
– Matt Gutting
22 mins ago
add a comment |Â
1
I was intrigued by OED's Old English Wealh , (Anglian) Walh foreigner, Briton, Welsh person, slave, is cognate with Old High German Walh , Walah speaker of a Romance language (Middle High German Walch , Walhe foreigner, speaker of a Romance language, specifically Frenchman or Italian, German †Wahle ), Middle Dutch Wale speaker of a Romance language, specifically Walloon or Frenchman (Dutch Waal Walloon, speaker of a Romance language, especially French; compare the Old Dutch byname Wal , Walo )... Never knew the Welsh roots stretched that far east!
– FumbleFingers
56 mins ago
@FumbleFingers: Walloon is kind of an a-hah moment for me.
– Robusto
52 mins ago
So was the Anglian form definitely the one that made it into Middle English? Was the vowel change set by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later? Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to later e? I'll edit those questions into my main one - that's really what I wanted to know.
– Matt Gutting
22 mins ago
1
1
I was intrigued by OED's Old English Wealh , (Anglian) Walh foreigner, Briton, Welsh person, slave, is cognate with Old High German Walh , Walah speaker of a Romance language (Middle High German Walch , Walhe foreigner, speaker of a Romance language, specifically Frenchman or Italian, German †Wahle ), Middle Dutch Wale speaker of a Romance language, specifically Walloon or Frenchman (Dutch Waal Walloon, speaker of a Romance language, especially French; compare the Old Dutch byname Wal , Walo )... Never knew the Welsh roots stretched that far east!
– FumbleFingers
56 mins ago
I was intrigued by OED's Old English Wealh , (Anglian) Walh foreigner, Briton, Welsh person, slave, is cognate with Old High German Walh , Walah speaker of a Romance language (Middle High German Walch , Walhe foreigner, speaker of a Romance language, specifically Frenchman or Italian, German †Wahle ), Middle Dutch Wale speaker of a Romance language, specifically Walloon or Frenchman (Dutch Waal Walloon, speaker of a Romance language, especially French; compare the Old Dutch byname Wal , Walo )... Never knew the Welsh roots stretched that far east!
– FumbleFingers
56 mins ago
@FumbleFingers: Walloon is kind of an a-hah moment for me.
– Robusto
52 mins ago
@FumbleFingers: Walloon is kind of an a-hah moment for me.
– Robusto
52 mins ago
So was the Anglian form definitely the one that made it into Middle English? Was the vowel change set by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later? Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to later e? I'll edit those questions into my main one - that's really what I wanted to know.
– Matt Gutting
22 mins ago
So was the Anglian form definitely the one that made it into Middle English? Was the vowel change set by the first appearance in Middle English, or did that come later? Is there a general rule converting Old English æ to later e? I'll edit those questions into my main one - that's really what I wanted to know.
– Matt Gutting
22 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Note that Scottish has the contracted form “Scotch†(also “Scotsâ€Â, where the use of /s/ is I think a Scottish feature).
I would guess that the consonant cluster in the middle of “English†inhibited the development of any monosyllabic contracted forms—“Englsh†is not exactly a validly formed syllable in English.
Alongside Welsh we have French and Dutch (although in Dutch the contraction happened before the word entered English).
answered 44 mins ago
sumelic
43.2k6102203
And the vowel quality change after w?
– Matt Gutting
13 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Note that Scottish has the contracted form “Scotch†(also “Scotsâ€Â, where the use of /s/ is I think a Scottish feature).
I would guess that the consonant cluster in the middle of “English†inhibited the development of any monosyllabic contracted forms—“Englsh†is not exactly a validly formed syllable in English.
Alongside Welsh we have French and Dutch (although in Dutch the contraction happened before the word entered English).
answered 44 mins ago
sumelic
43.2k6102203
And the vowel quality change after w?
– Matt Gutting
13 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Note that Scottish has the contracted form “Scotch†(also “Scotsâ€Â, where the use of /s/ is I think a Scottish feature).
I would guess that the consonant cluster in the middle of “English†inhibited the development of any monosyllabic contracted forms—“Englsh†is not exactly a validly formed syllable in English.
Alongside Welsh we have French and Dutch (although in Dutch the contraction happened before the word entered English).
answered 44 mins ago
sumelic
43.2k6102203
Note that Scottish has the contracted form “Scotch†(also “Scotsâ€Â, where the use of /s/ is I think a Scottish feature).
I would guess that the consonant cluster in the middle of “English†inhibited the development of any monosyllabic contracted forms—“Englsh†is not exactly a validly formed syllable in English.
Alongside Welsh we have French and Dutch (although in Dutch the contraction happened before the word entered English).
answered 44 mins ago
sumelic
43.2k6102203
edited 39 mins ago
answered 44 mins ago
sumelic
43.2k6102203
answered 44 mins ago
sumelic
43.2k6102203
answered 44 mins ago
sumelic
43.2k6102203
43.2k6102203
And the vowel quality change after w?
– Matt Gutting
13 mins ago
add a comment |Â
And the vowel quality change after w?
– Matt Gutting
13 mins ago
And the vowel quality change after w?
– Matt Gutting
13 mins ago
And the vowel quality change after w?
– Matt Gutting
13 mins ago
add a comment |Â
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Perhaps if it were called Walland and not Wales.
– Ian MacDonald
11 mins ago