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Can you Plane Shift to a specific layer of the Nine Hells?
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The description of the plane shift spell (PHB, pg. 266) says:
You and up to eight willing creatures who link hands in a circle are transported to a different plane of existence. You can specify a target destination in general terms, such as the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire or the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells, and you appear in or near that destination. If you are trying to reach the City of Brass, for example, you might arrive in its Streets of Steel, before its Gate of Ashes, or looking at the city from across the Sea of Fire, at the DM's discretion.
The spell's description singles out a location on a layer of the Nine Hells that is not the first (Avernus), which implies that you can use plane shift to teleport from another plane (i.e. not the Nine Hells) directly to a specific layer of the Nine Hells.
However, in the DMG (pg. 64), it says:
Avernus
No planar portals connect directly to the lower layers of the Nine Hells, by Asmodeus's orders. As such, the first layer of Avernus is the arrival point for visitors to the plane.
This implies that you cannot go directly to any layer of the Nine Hells other than Avernus. In the plane shift description, it says "you appear in or near that destination", which given this quote from the DMG, might mean that, because you might not be able to get directly to the second layer of the Hells, you arrive "near", meaning Avernus. The last sentence of my plane shift quote expands on the City of Brass example, but not the palace of Dispater example.
However, the DMG quote also describes portals specifically, so this might not apply to plane shift since it doesn't explicitly mention a portal.
Can you plane shift to any layer of the Nine Hells besides Avernus? In other words, does this DMG quote prevent you from plane shifting to, say, "the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells"?
dnd-5e spells planes teleportation
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NathanS
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The description of the plane shift spell (PHB, pg. 266) says:
You and up to eight willing creatures who link hands in a circle are transported to a different plane of existence. You can specify a target destination in general terms, such as the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire or the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells, and you appear in or near that destination. If you are trying to reach the City of Brass, for example, you might arrive in its Streets of Steel, before its Gate of Ashes, or looking at the city from across the Sea of Fire, at the DM's discretion.
The spell's description singles out a location on a layer of the Nine Hells that is not the first (Avernus), which implies that you can use plane shift to teleport from another plane (i.e. not the Nine Hells) directly to a specific layer of the Nine Hells.
However, in the DMG (pg. 64), it says:
Avernus
No planar portals connect directly to the lower layers of the Nine Hells, by Asmodeus's orders. As such, the first layer of Avernus is the arrival point for visitors to the plane.
This implies that you cannot go directly to any layer of the Nine Hells other than Avernus. In the plane shift description, it says "you appear in or near that destination", which given this quote from the DMG, might mean that, because you might not be able to get directly to the second layer of the Hells, you arrive "near", meaning Avernus. The last sentence of my plane shift quote expands on the City of Brass example, but not the palace of Dispater example.
However, the DMG quote also describes portals specifically, so this might not apply to plane shift since it doesn't explicitly mention a portal.
Can you plane shift to any layer of the Nine Hells besides Avernus? In other words, does this DMG quote prevent you from plane shifting to, say, "the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells"?
dnd-5e spells planes teleportation
asked 3 hours ago
NathanS
17.2k671186
add a comment |Â
up vote
10
down vote
favorite
up vote
10
down vote
favorite
The description of the plane shift spell (PHB, pg. 266) says:
You and up to eight willing creatures who link hands in a circle are transported to a different plane of existence. You can specify a target destination in general terms, such as the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire or the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells, and you appear in or near that destination. If you are trying to reach the City of Brass, for example, you might arrive in its Streets of Steel, before its Gate of Ashes, or looking at the city from across the Sea of Fire, at the DM's discretion.
The spell's description singles out a location on a layer of the Nine Hells that is not the first (Avernus), which implies that you can use plane shift to teleport from another plane (i.e. not the Nine Hells) directly to a specific layer of the Nine Hells.
However, in the DMG (pg. 64), it says:
Avernus
No planar portals connect directly to the lower layers of the Nine Hells, by Asmodeus's orders. As such, the first layer of Avernus is the arrival point for visitors to the plane.
This implies that you cannot go directly to any layer of the Nine Hells other than Avernus. In the plane shift description, it says "you appear in or near that destination", which given this quote from the DMG, might mean that, because you might not be able to get directly to the second layer of the Hells, you arrive "near", meaning Avernus. The last sentence of my plane shift quote expands on the City of Brass example, but not the palace of Dispater example.
However, the DMG quote also describes portals specifically, so this might not apply to plane shift since it doesn't explicitly mention a portal.
Can you plane shift to any layer of the Nine Hells besides Avernus? In other words, does this DMG quote prevent you from plane shifting to, say, "the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells"?
dnd-5e spells planes teleportation
asked 3 hours ago
NathanS
17.2k671186
The description of the plane shift spell (PHB, pg. 266) says:
You and up to eight willing creatures who link hands in a circle are transported to a different plane of existence. You can specify a target destination in general terms, such as the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire or the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells, and you appear in or near that destination. If you are trying to reach the City of Brass, for example, you might arrive in its Streets of Steel, before its Gate of Ashes, or looking at the city from across the Sea of Fire, at the DM's discretion.
The spell's description singles out a location on a layer of the Nine Hells that is not the first (Avernus), which implies that you can use plane shift to teleport from another plane (i.e. not the Nine Hells) directly to a specific layer of the Nine Hells.
However, in the DMG (pg. 64), it says:
Avernus
No planar portals connect directly to the lower layers of the Nine Hells, by Asmodeus's orders. As such, the first layer of Avernus is the arrival point for visitors to the plane.
This implies that you cannot go directly to any layer of the Nine Hells other than Avernus. In the plane shift description, it says "you appear in or near that destination", which given this quote from the DMG, might mean that, because you might not be able to get directly to the second layer of the Hells, you arrive "near", meaning Avernus. The last sentence of my plane shift quote expands on the City of Brass example, but not the palace of Dispater example.
However, the DMG quote also describes portals specifically, so this might not apply to plane shift since it doesn't explicitly mention a portal.
Can you plane shift to any layer of the Nine Hells besides Avernus? In other words, does this DMG quote prevent you from plane shifting to, say, "the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells"?
dnd-5e spells planes teleportation
dnd-5e spells planes teleportation
asked 3 hours ago
NathanS
17.2k671186
asked 3 hours ago
NathanS
17.2k671186
edited 1 hour ago
asked 3 hours ago
NathanS
17.2k671186
asked 3 hours ago
NathanS
17.2k671186
asked 3 hours ago
NathanS
17.2k671186
17.2k671186
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
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Yes, Plane Shift can bring you to any layer of the 9 hells
Evidence from the Plane Shift spell
The spell Plane Shift specifically says that it can transport the party directly to the palace of Dispater, which is located in Dis, the second layer of Hell. Thus it can clearly bring you directly to the lower layers of Hell.
Getting the material components to enable this transition, however, will be difficult. To utilise the spell you require a tuning fork specifically attuned to the layer of Hell you want to plane shift to.
Finally, Plane Shift doesn't create a portal, it transports the people affected by the spell to a different plane of existence.
Contrast this with the 9th level Gate spell which specifically states:
You conjure a portal [...]
Even if Plane Shift did create a portal, the fact the spell text specifically says it can transport creatures to Layers other than the 1st Layer of Hell would be a perfect example of the specific beats general rule.
Evidence from the DMG
The DMG section on the Outer Planes has two big caveats that we can drive our caravans through down to the lower levels of the Nine Hells:
It states (emphasis mine):
Planar portals don't connect to the lower levels of the Nine Hells by Asmodeus' orders
- If planar portals couldn't connect to the lower layers, there would be no reason for Asmodeus to make this order. As a result we infer two things:
- Asmodeus has told the other lords that they are not to allow the creation of planar portals on their layers (aside from Avernus).
- Planar portals can be connected to the lower layers...they just aren't created by the native denziens, who would likely work very hard to permanently close/guard any that did exist due to the aforementioned orders.
- If planar portals couldn't connect to the lower layers, there would be no reason for Asmodeus to make this order. As a result we infer two things:
The Infinite Staircase section states "on any given plane, there can be multiple doors to the Infinite Staircase, though entrances aren't common knowledge and are occasionally guarded by devas, sphinxes, yugoloths, and other powerful monsters"
- This is certainly one type of portal (using the literal meaning of the word portal to mean door) that connects different planes, which is explicitly designed to connect to every plane of existence.
The DMG also has a specific section on the Plane Shift spell (under Planar Travel), discussing it's limitations.
answered 39 mins ago
illustro
4,38911237
There is also some material from Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes which is of interest for this question, however I don't have the time right now to add it into my answer. I will do so when I get home later
– illustro
27 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Yes you can.
You can Plane Shift to any location on a different plane of existence. The DMG specifically mentions portals, which are standard paths between planes.
With conflicting rules like this the general rule is specific beats general and as the Plane Shift spell lists Dispater as a specific example of possible locations it can be concluded that it is possible.
Of course your DM might rule otherwise.
edited 46 mins ago
NathanS
17.2k671186
answered 59 mins ago
Dinomaster
473
"The DMG specifically mentions portals, which are [the] standard paths between planes.", I find this bit particularly helpful.
– NathanS
46 mins ago
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
Yes, Plane Shift can bring you to any layer of the 9 hells
Evidence from the Plane Shift spell
The spell Plane Shift specifically says that it can transport the party directly to the palace of Dispater, which is located in Dis, the second layer of Hell. Thus it can clearly bring you directly to the lower layers of Hell.
Getting the material components to enable this transition, however, will be difficult. To utilise the spell you require a tuning fork specifically attuned to the layer of Hell you want to plane shift to.
Finally, Plane Shift doesn't create a portal, it transports the people affected by the spell to a different plane of existence.
Contrast this with the 9th level Gate spell which specifically states:
You conjure a portal [...]
Even if Plane Shift did create a portal, the fact the spell text specifically says it can transport creatures to Layers other than the 1st Layer of Hell would be a perfect example of the specific beats general rule.
Evidence from the DMG
The DMG section on the Outer Planes has two big caveats that we can drive our caravans through down to the lower levels of the Nine Hells:
It states (emphasis mine):
Planar portals don't connect to the lower levels of the Nine Hells by Asmodeus' orders
- If planar portals couldn't connect to the lower layers, there would be no reason for Asmodeus to make this order. As a result we infer two things:
- Asmodeus has told the other lords that they are not to allow the creation of planar portals on their layers (aside from Avernus).
- Planar portals can be connected to the lower layers...they just aren't created by the native denziens, who would likely work very hard to permanently close/guard any that did exist due to the aforementioned orders.
- If planar portals couldn't connect to the lower layers, there would be no reason for Asmodeus to make this order. As a result we infer two things:
The Infinite Staircase section states "on any given plane, there can be multiple doors to the Infinite Staircase, though entrances aren't common knowledge and are occasionally guarded by devas, sphinxes, yugoloths, and other powerful monsters"
- This is certainly one type of portal (using the literal meaning of the word portal to mean door) that connects different planes, which is explicitly designed to connect to every plane of existence.
The DMG also has a specific section on the Plane Shift spell (under Planar Travel), discussing it's limitations.
answered 39 mins ago
illustro
4,38911237
There is also some material from Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes which is of interest for this question, however I don't have the time right now to add it into my answer. I will do so when I get home later
– illustro
27 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Yes, Plane Shift can bring you to any layer of the 9 hells
Evidence from the Plane Shift spell
The spell Plane Shift specifically says that it can transport the party directly to the palace of Dispater, which is located in Dis, the second layer of Hell. Thus it can clearly bring you directly to the lower layers of Hell.
Getting the material components to enable this transition, however, will be difficult. To utilise the spell you require a tuning fork specifically attuned to the layer of Hell you want to plane shift to.
Finally, Plane Shift doesn't create a portal, it transports the people affected by the spell to a different plane of existence.
Contrast this with the 9th level Gate spell which specifically states:
You conjure a portal [...]
Even if Plane Shift did create a portal, the fact the spell text specifically says it can transport creatures to Layers other than the 1st Layer of Hell would be a perfect example of the specific beats general rule.
Evidence from the DMG
The DMG section on the Outer Planes has two big caveats that we can drive our caravans through down to the lower levels of the Nine Hells:
It states (emphasis mine):
Planar portals don't connect to the lower levels of the Nine Hells by Asmodeus' orders
- If planar portals couldn't connect to the lower layers, there would be no reason for Asmodeus to make this order. As a result we infer two things:
- Asmodeus has told the other lords that they are not to allow the creation of planar portals on their layers (aside from Avernus).
- Planar portals can be connected to the lower layers...they just aren't created by the native denziens, who would likely work very hard to permanently close/guard any that did exist due to the aforementioned orders.
- If planar portals couldn't connect to the lower layers, there would be no reason for Asmodeus to make this order. As a result we infer two things:
The Infinite Staircase section states "on any given plane, there can be multiple doors to the Infinite Staircase, though entrances aren't common knowledge and are occasionally guarded by devas, sphinxes, yugoloths, and other powerful monsters"
- This is certainly one type of portal (using the literal meaning of the word portal to mean door) that connects different planes, which is explicitly designed to connect to every plane of existence.
The DMG also has a specific section on the Plane Shift spell (under Planar Travel), discussing it's limitations.
answered 39 mins ago
illustro
4,38911237
There is also some material from Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes which is of interest for this question, however I don't have the time right now to add it into my answer. I will do so when I get home later
– illustro
27 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Yes, Plane Shift can bring you to any layer of the 9 hells
Evidence from the Plane Shift spell
The spell Plane Shift specifically says that it can transport the party directly to the palace of Dispater, which is located in Dis, the second layer of Hell. Thus it can clearly bring you directly to the lower layers of Hell.
Getting the material components to enable this transition, however, will be difficult. To utilise the spell you require a tuning fork specifically attuned to the layer of Hell you want to plane shift to.
Finally, Plane Shift doesn't create a portal, it transports the people affected by the spell to a different plane of existence.
Contrast this with the 9th level Gate spell which specifically states:
You conjure a portal [...]
Even if Plane Shift did create a portal, the fact the spell text specifically says it can transport creatures to Layers other than the 1st Layer of Hell would be a perfect example of the specific beats general rule.
Evidence from the DMG
The DMG section on the Outer Planes has two big caveats that we can drive our caravans through down to the lower levels of the Nine Hells:
It states (emphasis mine):
Planar portals don't connect to the lower levels of the Nine Hells by Asmodeus' orders
- If planar portals couldn't connect to the lower layers, there would be no reason for Asmodeus to make this order. As a result we infer two things:
- Asmodeus has told the other lords that they are not to allow the creation of planar portals on their layers (aside from Avernus).
- Planar portals can be connected to the lower layers...they just aren't created by the native denziens, who would likely work very hard to permanently close/guard any that did exist due to the aforementioned orders.
- If planar portals couldn't connect to the lower layers, there would be no reason for Asmodeus to make this order. As a result we infer two things:
The Infinite Staircase section states "on any given plane, there can be multiple doors to the Infinite Staircase, though entrances aren't common knowledge and are occasionally guarded by devas, sphinxes, yugoloths, and other powerful monsters"
- This is certainly one type of portal (using the literal meaning of the word portal to mean door) that connects different planes, which is explicitly designed to connect to every plane of existence.
The DMG also has a specific section on the Plane Shift spell (under Planar Travel), discussing it's limitations.
answered 39 mins ago
illustro
4,38911237
Yes, Plane Shift can bring you to any layer of the 9 hells
Evidence from the Plane Shift spell
The spell Plane Shift specifically says that it can transport the party directly to the palace of Dispater, which is located in Dis, the second layer of Hell. Thus it can clearly bring you directly to the lower layers of Hell.
Getting the material components to enable this transition, however, will be difficult. To utilise the spell you require a tuning fork specifically attuned to the layer of Hell you want to plane shift to.
Finally, Plane Shift doesn't create a portal, it transports the people affected by the spell to a different plane of existence.
Contrast this with the 9th level Gate spell which specifically states:
You conjure a portal [...]
Even if Plane Shift did create a portal, the fact the spell text specifically says it can transport creatures to Layers other than the 1st Layer of Hell would be a perfect example of the specific beats general rule.
Evidence from the DMG
The DMG section on the Outer Planes has two big caveats that we can drive our caravans through down to the lower levels of the Nine Hells:
It states (emphasis mine):
Planar portals don't connect to the lower levels of the Nine Hells by Asmodeus' orders
- If planar portals couldn't connect to the lower layers, there would be no reason for Asmodeus to make this order. As a result we infer two things:
- Asmodeus has told the other lords that they are not to allow the creation of planar portals on their layers (aside from Avernus).
- Planar portals can be connected to the lower layers...they just aren't created by the native denziens, who would likely work very hard to permanently close/guard any that did exist due to the aforementioned orders.
- If planar portals couldn't connect to the lower layers, there would be no reason for Asmodeus to make this order. As a result we infer two things:
The Infinite Staircase section states "on any given plane, there can be multiple doors to the Infinite Staircase, though entrances aren't common knowledge and are occasionally guarded by devas, sphinxes, yugoloths, and other powerful monsters"
- This is certainly one type of portal (using the literal meaning of the word portal to mean door) that connects different planes, which is explicitly designed to connect to every plane of existence.
The DMG also has a specific section on the Plane Shift spell (under Planar Travel), discussing it's limitations.
answered 39 mins ago
illustro
4,38911237
edited 29 mins ago
answered 39 mins ago
illustro
4,38911237
answered 39 mins ago
illustro
4,38911237
answered 39 mins ago
illustro
4,38911237
4,38911237
There is also some material from Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes which is of interest for this question, however I don't have the time right now to add it into my answer. I will do so when I get home later
– illustro
27 mins ago
add a comment |Â
There is also some material from Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes which is of interest for this question, however I don't have the time right now to add it into my answer. I will do so when I get home later
– illustro
27 mins ago
There is also some material from Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes which is of interest for this question, however I don't have the time right now to add it into my answer. I will do so when I get home later
– illustro
27 mins ago
There is also some material from Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes which is of interest for this question, however I don't have the time right now to add it into my answer. I will do so when I get home later
– illustro
27 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Yes you can.
You can Plane Shift to any location on a different plane of existence. The DMG specifically mentions portals, which are standard paths between planes.
With conflicting rules like this the general rule is specific beats general and as the Plane Shift spell lists Dispater as a specific example of possible locations it can be concluded that it is possible.
Of course your DM might rule otherwise.
edited 46 mins ago
NathanS
17.2k671186
answered 59 mins ago
Dinomaster
473
"The DMG specifically mentions portals, which are [the] standard paths between planes.", I find this bit particularly helpful.
– NathanS
46 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Yes you can.
You can Plane Shift to any location on a different plane of existence. The DMG specifically mentions portals, which are standard paths between planes.
With conflicting rules like this the general rule is specific beats general and as the Plane Shift spell lists Dispater as a specific example of possible locations it can be concluded that it is possible.
Of course your DM might rule otherwise.
edited 46 mins ago
NathanS
17.2k671186
answered 59 mins ago
Dinomaster
473
"The DMG specifically mentions portals, which are [the] standard paths between planes.", I find this bit particularly helpful.
– NathanS
46 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Yes you can.
You can Plane Shift to any location on a different plane of existence. The DMG specifically mentions portals, which are standard paths between planes.
With conflicting rules like this the general rule is specific beats general and as the Plane Shift spell lists Dispater as a specific example of possible locations it can be concluded that it is possible.
Of course your DM might rule otherwise.
edited 46 mins ago
NathanS
17.2k671186
answered 59 mins ago
Dinomaster
473
Yes you can.
You can Plane Shift to any location on a different plane of existence. The DMG specifically mentions portals, which are standard paths between planes.
With conflicting rules like this the general rule is specific beats general and as the Plane Shift spell lists Dispater as a specific example of possible locations it can be concluded that it is possible.
Of course your DM might rule otherwise.
edited 46 mins ago
NathanS
17.2k671186
answered 59 mins ago
Dinomaster
473
edited 46 mins ago
NathanS
17.2k671186
edited 46 mins ago
NathanS
17.2k671186
edited 46 mins ago
NathanS
17.2k671186
17.2k671186
answered 59 mins ago
Dinomaster
473
answered 59 mins ago
Dinomaster
473
answered 59 mins ago
Dinomaster
473
473
"The DMG specifically mentions portals, which are [the] standard paths between planes.", I find this bit particularly helpful.
– NathanS
46 mins ago
add a comment |Â
"The DMG specifically mentions portals, which are [the] standard paths between planes.", I find this bit particularly helpful.
– NathanS
46 mins ago
"The DMG specifically mentions portals, which are [the] standard paths between planes.", I find this bit particularly helpful.
– NathanS
46 mins ago
"The DMG specifically mentions portals, which are [the] standard paths between planes.", I find this bit particularly helpful.
– NathanS
46 mins ago
add a comment |Â
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