How could a goverment sell prisoners as slaves (without giving advantage to richs)?
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Imagine a society (medieval, but that isn't very important here) that has approved slavery. You can trade, buy, sell and hire slaves at will in the market.
Introduction
Slaves are usually "harvested" from indigenous villages that are attacked and conquered by the kingdom. Also, but not so common, people can sell their sons or even themselves to be slaves, usually if they are extremely poor (at least their new owners will usually take care of them, otherwise they will lose money). Another way to get slaves is during a war, war prisoners sometimes aren't returned to their homes after a war and they become slaves of the victorious empire, even this may happen with civilians in war zones.
The idea: Sell prisoners.
The thing that I want to add is the possibility of buying prisoners as slaves. This will have 2 main advantages:
- The government will spend less money on prisons.
- The slave market will have cheaper prices due a new and constant flow of slaves to the market (wars and indigenous villages aren't so common).
And finally, it may be a bit interesting.
It's quite understandable and obvious that slaves can be released. An owner can at will give freedom to its slaves, he just needs to sign a little contract that states the freedom of the person. Sometimes slaves perform deals with they masters if they work hard and without causing problems during X years they get freedom.
The problem
If you can buy prisoners as slaves and you can get them free at will, you can, as a rich person, member of a rich family, assassins/thief guild, etc, perform a criminal activity, be jailed, be bought by a friend, and finally be released by him.
Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations.
How can I prevent this problem but allow the sale of prisoners?
Even not allowing slaves to be set free by their masters it still being the same. You can be bought by a friend, family or guild and keep your life as normal. I don't want that.
Not much necessary to know
In this world, there is magic, some magic (usually healing magic) need life forces of victims to be performed. I want to let mages buy cheap prisoners and use them as life-force batteries to power they healing services in rich hospitals. I was thinking in prisoners because they are actually criminals, not just "slaved persons", so mages wouldn't annoy about kill them to fuel their magic, also, they may be cheaper.
A solution could be to not buy the prisoner, just its life-force. A mage visits a prison, ask for some life-force, pay the price, guards transfer the prisoner to a special room, and there part of its life is taken away from him to a jar by the mage. Simple, easy and effective. But I don't like much the idea. I would like the idea of buy prisoners as assets, not just their life essence.
society economy slavery prison
 |Â
show 4 more comments
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
Imagine a society (medieval, but that isn't very important here) that has approved slavery. You can trade, buy, sell and hire slaves at will in the market.
Introduction
Slaves are usually "harvested" from indigenous villages that are attacked and conquered by the kingdom. Also, but not so common, people can sell their sons or even themselves to be slaves, usually if they are extremely poor (at least their new owners will usually take care of them, otherwise they will lose money). Another way to get slaves is during a war, war prisoners sometimes aren't returned to their homes after a war and they become slaves of the victorious empire, even this may happen with civilians in war zones.
The idea: Sell prisoners.
The thing that I want to add is the possibility of buying prisoners as slaves. This will have 2 main advantages:
- The government will spend less money on prisons.
- The slave market will have cheaper prices due a new and constant flow of slaves to the market (wars and indigenous villages aren't so common).
And finally, it may be a bit interesting.
It's quite understandable and obvious that slaves can be released. An owner can at will give freedom to its slaves, he just needs to sign a little contract that states the freedom of the person. Sometimes slaves perform deals with they masters if they work hard and without causing problems during X years they get freedom.
The problem
If you can buy prisoners as slaves and you can get them free at will, you can, as a rich person, member of a rich family, assassins/thief guild, etc, perform a criminal activity, be jailed, be bought by a friend, and finally be released by him.
Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations.
How can I prevent this problem but allow the sale of prisoners?
Even not allowing slaves to be set free by their masters it still being the same. You can be bought by a friend, family or guild and keep your life as normal. I don't want that.
Not much necessary to know
In this world, there is magic, some magic (usually healing magic) need life forces of victims to be performed. I want to let mages buy cheap prisoners and use them as life-force batteries to power they healing services in rich hospitals. I was thinking in prisoners because they are actually criminals, not just "slaved persons", so mages wouldn't annoy about kill them to fuel their magic, also, they may be cheaper.
A solution could be to not buy the prisoner, just its life-force. A mage visits a prison, ask for some life-force, pay the price, guards transfer the prisoner to a special room, and there part of its life is taken away from him to a jar by the mage. Simple, easy and effective. But I don't like much the idea. I would like the idea of buy prisoners as assets, not just their life essence.
society economy slavery prison
2
This used to happen, at some times in some places; sell them across the border (to barbarians), or sell them in a faraway (and dirt-poor) province. As for the problem as stated, that rich people and their goons will go free, this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of pre-modern justice. The entire point was to compel the criminal to pay the weregeld, the price of the victim. In the Antiquity and the Middle Ages there was no concept of prison as punishment; the punishment was either a fine, or else death. Enslavement was a form of capital punishment.
â AlexP
21 hours ago
2
So the problem is that slavery reduces to a fine (the price of buying the slave). Is that necessarily a problem?
â Thomas
16 hours ago
@Thomas given my initial thought it was a problem, because of rich people or assassin/thief guilds could pay for it, but applying some of the answers suggestion it seems not. Anyway, I'll wait for one or two days before accept an answer.
â Ender Look
15 hours ago
1
"Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations" - historically, this has been a pretty common state of affairs.
â Geoffrey Brent
6 hours ago
1
This is already done in the United States and is completely legal. Yes, slavery is legal in the United States of America under certain conditions, and is very heavily utilized by many companies.
â forest
6 hours ago
 |Â
show 4 more comments
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
Imagine a society (medieval, but that isn't very important here) that has approved slavery. You can trade, buy, sell and hire slaves at will in the market.
Introduction
Slaves are usually "harvested" from indigenous villages that are attacked and conquered by the kingdom. Also, but not so common, people can sell their sons or even themselves to be slaves, usually if they are extremely poor (at least their new owners will usually take care of them, otherwise they will lose money). Another way to get slaves is during a war, war prisoners sometimes aren't returned to their homes after a war and they become slaves of the victorious empire, even this may happen with civilians in war zones.
The idea: Sell prisoners.
The thing that I want to add is the possibility of buying prisoners as slaves. This will have 2 main advantages:
- The government will spend less money on prisons.
- The slave market will have cheaper prices due a new and constant flow of slaves to the market (wars and indigenous villages aren't so common).
And finally, it may be a bit interesting.
It's quite understandable and obvious that slaves can be released. An owner can at will give freedom to its slaves, he just needs to sign a little contract that states the freedom of the person. Sometimes slaves perform deals with they masters if they work hard and without causing problems during X years they get freedom.
The problem
If you can buy prisoners as slaves and you can get them free at will, you can, as a rich person, member of a rich family, assassins/thief guild, etc, perform a criminal activity, be jailed, be bought by a friend, and finally be released by him.
Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations.
How can I prevent this problem but allow the sale of prisoners?
Even not allowing slaves to be set free by their masters it still being the same. You can be bought by a friend, family or guild and keep your life as normal. I don't want that.
Not much necessary to know
In this world, there is magic, some magic (usually healing magic) need life forces of victims to be performed. I want to let mages buy cheap prisoners and use them as life-force batteries to power they healing services in rich hospitals. I was thinking in prisoners because they are actually criminals, not just "slaved persons", so mages wouldn't annoy about kill them to fuel their magic, also, they may be cheaper.
A solution could be to not buy the prisoner, just its life-force. A mage visits a prison, ask for some life-force, pay the price, guards transfer the prisoner to a special room, and there part of its life is taken away from him to a jar by the mage. Simple, easy and effective. But I don't like much the idea. I would like the idea of buy prisoners as assets, not just their life essence.
society economy slavery prison
Imagine a society (medieval, but that isn't very important here) that has approved slavery. You can trade, buy, sell and hire slaves at will in the market.
Introduction
Slaves are usually "harvested" from indigenous villages that are attacked and conquered by the kingdom. Also, but not so common, people can sell their sons or even themselves to be slaves, usually if they are extremely poor (at least their new owners will usually take care of them, otherwise they will lose money). Another way to get slaves is during a war, war prisoners sometimes aren't returned to their homes after a war and they become slaves of the victorious empire, even this may happen with civilians in war zones.
The idea: Sell prisoners.
The thing that I want to add is the possibility of buying prisoners as slaves. This will have 2 main advantages:
- The government will spend less money on prisons.
- The slave market will have cheaper prices due a new and constant flow of slaves to the market (wars and indigenous villages aren't so common).
And finally, it may be a bit interesting.
It's quite understandable and obvious that slaves can be released. An owner can at will give freedom to its slaves, he just needs to sign a little contract that states the freedom of the person. Sometimes slaves perform deals with they masters if they work hard and without causing problems during X years they get freedom.
The problem
If you can buy prisoners as slaves and you can get them free at will, you can, as a rich person, member of a rich family, assassins/thief guild, etc, perform a criminal activity, be jailed, be bought by a friend, and finally be released by him.
Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations.
How can I prevent this problem but allow the sale of prisoners?
Even not allowing slaves to be set free by their masters it still being the same. You can be bought by a friend, family or guild and keep your life as normal. I don't want that.
Not much necessary to know
In this world, there is magic, some magic (usually healing magic) need life forces of victims to be performed. I want to let mages buy cheap prisoners and use them as life-force batteries to power they healing services in rich hospitals. I was thinking in prisoners because they are actually criminals, not just "slaved persons", so mages wouldn't annoy about kill them to fuel their magic, also, they may be cheaper.
A solution could be to not buy the prisoner, just its life-force. A mage visits a prison, ask for some life-force, pay the price, guards transfer the prisoner to a special room, and there part of its life is taken away from him to a jar by the mage. Simple, easy and effective. But I don't like much the idea. I would like the idea of buy prisoners as assets, not just their life essence.
society economy slavery prison
society economy slavery prison
edited 5 mins ago
asked 22 hours ago
Ender Look
4,68111242
4,68111242
2
This used to happen, at some times in some places; sell them across the border (to barbarians), or sell them in a faraway (and dirt-poor) province. As for the problem as stated, that rich people and their goons will go free, this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of pre-modern justice. The entire point was to compel the criminal to pay the weregeld, the price of the victim. In the Antiquity and the Middle Ages there was no concept of prison as punishment; the punishment was either a fine, or else death. Enslavement was a form of capital punishment.
â AlexP
21 hours ago
2
So the problem is that slavery reduces to a fine (the price of buying the slave). Is that necessarily a problem?
â Thomas
16 hours ago
@Thomas given my initial thought it was a problem, because of rich people or assassin/thief guilds could pay for it, but applying some of the answers suggestion it seems not. Anyway, I'll wait for one or two days before accept an answer.
â Ender Look
15 hours ago
1
"Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations" - historically, this has been a pretty common state of affairs.
â Geoffrey Brent
6 hours ago
1
This is already done in the United States and is completely legal. Yes, slavery is legal in the United States of America under certain conditions, and is very heavily utilized by many companies.
â forest
6 hours ago
 |Â
show 4 more comments
2
This used to happen, at some times in some places; sell them across the border (to barbarians), or sell them in a faraway (and dirt-poor) province. As for the problem as stated, that rich people and their goons will go free, this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of pre-modern justice. The entire point was to compel the criminal to pay the weregeld, the price of the victim. In the Antiquity and the Middle Ages there was no concept of prison as punishment; the punishment was either a fine, or else death. Enslavement was a form of capital punishment.
â AlexP
21 hours ago
2
So the problem is that slavery reduces to a fine (the price of buying the slave). Is that necessarily a problem?
â Thomas
16 hours ago
@Thomas given my initial thought it was a problem, because of rich people or assassin/thief guilds could pay for it, but applying some of the answers suggestion it seems not. Anyway, I'll wait for one or two days before accept an answer.
â Ender Look
15 hours ago
1
"Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations" - historically, this has been a pretty common state of affairs.
â Geoffrey Brent
6 hours ago
1
This is already done in the United States and is completely legal. Yes, slavery is legal in the United States of America under certain conditions, and is very heavily utilized by many companies.
â forest
6 hours ago
2
2
This used to happen, at some times in some places; sell them across the border (to barbarians), or sell them in a faraway (and dirt-poor) province. As for the problem as stated, that rich people and their goons will go free, this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of pre-modern justice. The entire point was to compel the criminal to pay the weregeld, the price of the victim. In the Antiquity and the Middle Ages there was no concept of prison as punishment; the punishment was either a fine, or else death. Enslavement was a form of capital punishment.
â AlexP
21 hours ago
This used to happen, at some times in some places; sell them across the border (to barbarians), or sell them in a faraway (and dirt-poor) province. As for the problem as stated, that rich people and their goons will go free, this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of pre-modern justice. The entire point was to compel the criminal to pay the weregeld, the price of the victim. In the Antiquity and the Middle Ages there was no concept of prison as punishment; the punishment was either a fine, or else death. Enslavement was a form of capital punishment.
â AlexP
21 hours ago
2
2
So the problem is that slavery reduces to a fine (the price of buying the slave). Is that necessarily a problem?
â Thomas
16 hours ago
So the problem is that slavery reduces to a fine (the price of buying the slave). Is that necessarily a problem?
â Thomas
16 hours ago
@Thomas given my initial thought it was a problem, because of rich people or assassin/thief guilds could pay for it, but applying some of the answers suggestion it seems not. Anyway, I'll wait for one or two days before accept an answer.
â Ender Look
15 hours ago
@Thomas given my initial thought it was a problem, because of rich people or assassin/thief guilds could pay for it, but applying some of the answers suggestion it seems not. Anyway, I'll wait for one or two days before accept an answer.
â Ender Look
15 hours ago
1
1
"Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations" - historically, this has been a pretty common state of affairs.
â Geoffrey Brent
6 hours ago
"Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations" - historically, this has been a pretty common state of affairs.
â Geoffrey Brent
6 hours ago
1
1
This is already done in the United States and is completely legal. Yes, slavery is legal in the United States of America under certain conditions, and is very heavily utilized by many companies.
â forest
6 hours ago
This is already done in the United States and is completely legal. Yes, slavery is legal in the United States of America under certain conditions, and is very heavily utilized by many companies.
â forest
6 hours ago
 |Â
show 4 more comments
10 Answers
10
active
oldest
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up vote
40
down vote
It used to be commonplace
The question show a misconception about pre-modern societies. They were not modern societies in which people dressed funny and had a handful of unusual laws; they were profoundly alien. As it is said, the past is a foreign country.
First of all, in pre-modern societies they had no concept of imprisonment as a form of punishment. Misdeeds were of only two kinds: most of them incurred some sort of fine, or price, to be paid; the others called for the capital punishment.
What exactly qualified for capital punishment varied from place to place and from time to time. Murder was a capital crime in the classical world, but not so much in the early Germanic Middle Ages, where it called for payment of a man-price, or weregild. On the other hand, all pre-Renaissance penal codes were very harsh on adultery and other forms of domestic treason.
Enslavement was a form of capital punishment.
The Romans called it capitis deminutio maxima, the greatest diminishment of the head. In early Rome, it involved selling the convict across the border, trans Tiberim, on the other side of the river Tiber. In more civilized times, it involved usually making the convict a slave of their punishment, servus poenae, and selling them to work in a mine, damnatio ad metalla.
The point is that it was a capital punishment. (Capital from caput, head.) The person was legally dead. Their wealth was either confiscated or passed to their heirs. They could not come back from the dead, and enslavement was assimilated with death, servitus morti adsimulatur.
Even if they were miraculously set free (which was usually not possible, because they were branded before being sold, and branded slaves could not be manumitted), they had no family, no relations. Wait, a modern person will say, but this was a legal fiction; of course their natural family would recognize them. Nope, not so; the past is a foreign country, and the Romans tooks family very seriously, and would never welcome an unrelated former convict.
Were the Romans the only one to practice penal slavery?
No, not at all.
In early medieval Hungary,
Freemen could be sold into slavery for numerous crimes. Any common woman (plebeia) caught in adultery would be sold 'without the hope of freedom' (sine spe libertatis), and the same fate awaited a common man caught in the same sin.
(Cameron Sutt, Slavery in ÃÂrpád-era Hungary in a Comparative Context, BRILL, 2015, ISBN 9789004301580)
In some western European countries, early Germanic penal codes had similar provisions.
In medieval China they sold the convicts far away, in the poor provinces at the margins of the empire.
The early modern English sold them across the ocean, in America.
But what about the rich? And their goons?
The rich were rich anyway. The rules did not apply to them. A rich Roman (or a rich Chinese) could never be enslaved or God forbid! executed; the worst of the worst was exile (which implied loss of property) but this was exceedingly rare, the usual maximum punishment for a rich criminal being relegation (sort of like exile, but without complete loss of property).
And their goons? Well, rich people did not stay rich by spending money on slaves which they intended to manumit immediately, not to mention that it would have been against social decorum to do that; and in a pre-modern society, loss of face (or, as they called in Europe, dishonour) was to be avoided at all costs.
2
The Orients used to deal in the slave trade quite a bit. In Japan, many/most of the geisha houses were made up entirely of women who where sold as children to pay off a family debt. The madame/mama-san was almost always one of these geishas who had either saved up enough money to buy their own contract or were lucky enough to earn the right to inherit the house when the previous mama-san died or retired. This form of slavery was so well honored that previous slaves enslaved others, as odd as that sounds to Westerners/modern society.
â computercarguy
18 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
10
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All prisoners are property of the Government during their sentence. The "owners" don't buy them, just hire them for long periods.
In a medieval society, because sentences need to be really harsh, you need to use those slaves only for the most dangerous jobs, like rowing ships, working in mines, etc. If not, people will commit crimes and then ran away during their slavery time, because the Government has almost no security forces and just by traveling 100 km nobody knows you.
2
Although not exactly the same a similar principle is that in England all land technically belongs to the Crown, people who "own" land or houses have a freehold on the estate.
â Sarriesfan
20 hours ago
2
Sounds like "Slavery-as-a-service". :P
â GentlePurpleRain
18 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
Face Branding
Just brand each prisoner's face so no one ever gets the wrong idea about them being free. Funny enough, this was used for the purpose of slaves in our own history. I want to point out one group specifically which were branded by the Roman Catholic church.
In the 16th century, German Anabaptists were branded with a cross on their foreheads for refusing to recant their faith and join the Roman Catholic church.
For some reason if your cringing at the thought, branding another place that is clearly visible would be possible. Think hands, neck, ankles.
Edit: It was pointed out in the comments I should put in a bit more detail, so I will answer your question directly.
Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations.
How can I prevent this problem but allow the sale of prisoners?
We cannot prevent all criminals from gaining back their old life but we can prevent them from rebuilding anything public facing. Not to mention, ostracizing people is a strong punishment in itself.
The easiest way to ostracize someone is to make them different from everyone else in a bad way. In the Southern states of the USA there were slaves, but every one had a single feature that made them different; a black skin color. Just by looking at a person in the south you could guess who was or was not a slave. This is a powerful force as all of society is enforcing your slavery.
Now you need the same solution, but applicable to any person without undue cost. This requires a clear marking that no one can ignore, removing body parts and permanent disfiguration are the easiest solutions. removing body parts may damage their ability to contribute so that is out. disfiguration only works on easily seen parts of the body and hiding your whole face is hard in society.
This man was a Siberian convict of Russia. Without even knowing that, having those marks on his face clearly sets him apart from most people. He will never get away from the past even if he was set free.
If you would rather go with the amputation method Iran recently made a machine that does it for you. Losing a finger for your crime is a clear disfiguration for the purpose of this question.
You should expand on how this prevents the problem the OP is worried about, I can see it but it is not explicit.
â John
12 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
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Make owners responsible for their slaves. This is a replacement for imprisonment. So there would be a sentence length. Using their lifeforce reduces the sentence length. But otherwise, their period of enslavement is determined by the original judging entity. Purchasers cannot reduce it arbitrarily. Further, because they are responsible for crimes that their slaves may commit, this means that if a slave commits another crime, the purchaser also goes to jail. Eventually the slave runs out of friends and family members.
This allows for slaves to be bought for lifeforce. This reduces their sentence. The healers administrate that part. Slaves may also be bought for labor. But then the owner becomes responsible for the slave. Hostile owners will hire guards, etc. Friendly owners might try to do this, but then they are subject to arrest when they fail to restrict their slave.
You can further reinforce this with some arbitrary restrictions. For example, slaves may not be allowed outside on their own after dark. Break that and the slave goes back to jail for resale. The owner loses whatever investment was made to free the slave.
Other potential rules:
- Slaves can't talk to free women, even their mothers, sisters, and daughters.
- Slaves can't speak back to free people.
- Slaves can't strike free people.
- Slaves may not be allowed to drink alcohol.
- Slaves may not be allowed to drink from free fountains.
add a comment |Â
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Just like in real life, you could use parole officers to ensure the prisoners are being subjected to the punishments your government believes they should receive. Although real-life parole officers are more focused on the prisoner's background and activities outside of prison, your parole officers will be more focused on the buyer.
Before making the purchase, the buyer must agree to uphold whatever punishments/type of work/treatment that the prisoner should receive, and how long they will remain a prisoner(assuming it isn't for life). Upon buying a prisoner destined for slavery, the buyer must register themselves(if it's their first time) and the prisoner with the nearest parole officer/parole office. These officers will typically be part of your government's normal police/military jurisdictions.
After registering, the buyer will be subjected to periodic, and ideally random, inspections of the prisoner-turned-slave's working conditions. If the parole officer is suspicious that the buyer is not adhering to the conditions they agreed to before the purchase, the officer can issue warnings and set up more thorough, and again random, investigations.
Should the buyer be found beyond a reasonable doubt to be treating the slaves better/worse than they should, then the slave may be taken away from the buyer without compensation. Repeated or particularly egregious offenses, such as killing, maiming, or releasing them, could result in a complete ban from further purchases.
add a comment |Â
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There is no such thing as personal property
The kingdom is an absolutist monarchy, along the lines of Pharaonic Egypt, Imperial China, or Achaemenid Persia. The king 'owns' everything in the country. If you have money or power, then you can pay the God-king for his material favors, or they could be granted to you as a divine boon.
But, there is no concept of 'ownership' at all. Everything that is, belongs to the God-king; the best anyone else can hope for is the right of possession (which could of course be revoked by the king at any time).
In this way, slaves are the property of the king, as is everything; but right merchants, guilds, lords and sundry can pay the king for the right to tell these slaves what to do.
add a comment |Â
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Just back off the concept that buyers can always buy a prisoner. If your rich guy commits a crime, he becomes a prisoner that cannot be bought.
Or you put restrictions on who can buy him; nobody that knows him. Or the government authorizes certain hard labor camps (mining, farming, gladiators) to buy such prisoners, and nobody else. And confiscate all his property and money while you are at it, so even if some friend could by subterfuge find a way to buy him out of slavery, the rich guy isn't rich anymore and cannot pay his friend back, because he has nothing.
There are many ways out of your dilemma, just do not assume the rules have to be simple or fair. You are allowing legal slavery for god's sake.
add a comment |Â
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Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations.
How can I prevent this problem but allow the sale of prisoners?
I think you could solve or mitigate this problem by thinking over who owns a newly-convicted prisoner by default.
In cases where it's the government of the day, they may have some good reason to not sell a criminal kingpin out of jail. There are some parallels between this and modern parole.
On the other hand, you could set up the system so that, for example, the surviving family of a murder victim decides if, and at what price, the convicted murderer can be "bailed out" of jail and into slavery. There may still be problems of duress, but at least they might be interesting ones.
On the final hand, "the law isn't a problem for the rich" isn't exactly unique to your situation.
New contributor
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Assign slaves to buyers randomly.
If your friend is sent to jail then you can buy all means request a slave. And the slave will be any one of the hundred prisoners taken in the last year or a slave from other means, maybe even one being sold back to the government. Unless you want to buy all of the slaves on the market you are pretty much out of luck.
If they did buy their freedom like a lottery then they will be punished financially and the government will be among those reaping the benefits of the mass slave buying.
1
Wouldn't the buyer want to see the slave before paying for him?
â Masclins
5 hours ago
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up vote
0
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You can ask them to serve you for an amount of time base on their crime level. For example, if they are killers, so if the rich guy wants to buy them, they must serve him 5 years before released and cannot be sold in that time.
New contributor
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10 Answers
10
active
oldest
votes
10 Answers
10
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
40
down vote
It used to be commonplace
The question show a misconception about pre-modern societies. They were not modern societies in which people dressed funny and had a handful of unusual laws; they were profoundly alien. As it is said, the past is a foreign country.
First of all, in pre-modern societies they had no concept of imprisonment as a form of punishment. Misdeeds were of only two kinds: most of them incurred some sort of fine, or price, to be paid; the others called for the capital punishment.
What exactly qualified for capital punishment varied from place to place and from time to time. Murder was a capital crime in the classical world, but not so much in the early Germanic Middle Ages, where it called for payment of a man-price, or weregild. On the other hand, all pre-Renaissance penal codes were very harsh on adultery and other forms of domestic treason.
Enslavement was a form of capital punishment.
The Romans called it capitis deminutio maxima, the greatest diminishment of the head. In early Rome, it involved selling the convict across the border, trans Tiberim, on the other side of the river Tiber. In more civilized times, it involved usually making the convict a slave of their punishment, servus poenae, and selling them to work in a mine, damnatio ad metalla.
The point is that it was a capital punishment. (Capital from caput, head.) The person was legally dead. Their wealth was either confiscated or passed to their heirs. They could not come back from the dead, and enslavement was assimilated with death, servitus morti adsimulatur.
Even if they were miraculously set free (which was usually not possible, because they were branded before being sold, and branded slaves could not be manumitted), they had no family, no relations. Wait, a modern person will say, but this was a legal fiction; of course their natural family would recognize them. Nope, not so; the past is a foreign country, and the Romans tooks family very seriously, and would never welcome an unrelated former convict.
Were the Romans the only one to practice penal slavery?
No, not at all.
In early medieval Hungary,
Freemen could be sold into slavery for numerous crimes. Any common woman (plebeia) caught in adultery would be sold 'without the hope of freedom' (sine spe libertatis), and the same fate awaited a common man caught in the same sin.
(Cameron Sutt, Slavery in ÃÂrpád-era Hungary in a Comparative Context, BRILL, 2015, ISBN 9789004301580)
In some western European countries, early Germanic penal codes had similar provisions.
In medieval China they sold the convicts far away, in the poor provinces at the margins of the empire.
The early modern English sold them across the ocean, in America.
But what about the rich? And their goons?
The rich were rich anyway. The rules did not apply to them. A rich Roman (or a rich Chinese) could never be enslaved or God forbid! executed; the worst of the worst was exile (which implied loss of property) but this was exceedingly rare, the usual maximum punishment for a rich criminal being relegation (sort of like exile, but without complete loss of property).
And their goons? Well, rich people did not stay rich by spending money on slaves which they intended to manumit immediately, not to mention that it would have been against social decorum to do that; and in a pre-modern society, loss of face (or, as they called in Europe, dishonour) was to be avoided at all costs.
2
The Orients used to deal in the slave trade quite a bit. In Japan, many/most of the geisha houses were made up entirely of women who where sold as children to pay off a family debt. The madame/mama-san was almost always one of these geishas who had either saved up enough money to buy their own contract or were lucky enough to earn the right to inherit the house when the previous mama-san died or retired. This form of slavery was so well honored that previous slaves enslaved others, as odd as that sounds to Westerners/modern society.
â computercarguy
18 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
40
down vote
It used to be commonplace
The question show a misconception about pre-modern societies. They were not modern societies in which people dressed funny and had a handful of unusual laws; they were profoundly alien. As it is said, the past is a foreign country.
First of all, in pre-modern societies they had no concept of imprisonment as a form of punishment. Misdeeds were of only two kinds: most of them incurred some sort of fine, or price, to be paid; the others called for the capital punishment.
What exactly qualified for capital punishment varied from place to place and from time to time. Murder was a capital crime in the classical world, but not so much in the early Germanic Middle Ages, where it called for payment of a man-price, or weregild. On the other hand, all pre-Renaissance penal codes were very harsh on adultery and other forms of domestic treason.
Enslavement was a form of capital punishment.
The Romans called it capitis deminutio maxima, the greatest diminishment of the head. In early Rome, it involved selling the convict across the border, trans Tiberim, on the other side of the river Tiber. In more civilized times, it involved usually making the convict a slave of their punishment, servus poenae, and selling them to work in a mine, damnatio ad metalla.
The point is that it was a capital punishment. (Capital from caput, head.) The person was legally dead. Their wealth was either confiscated or passed to their heirs. They could not come back from the dead, and enslavement was assimilated with death, servitus morti adsimulatur.
Even if they were miraculously set free (which was usually not possible, because they were branded before being sold, and branded slaves could not be manumitted), they had no family, no relations. Wait, a modern person will say, but this was a legal fiction; of course their natural family would recognize them. Nope, not so; the past is a foreign country, and the Romans tooks family very seriously, and would never welcome an unrelated former convict.
Were the Romans the only one to practice penal slavery?
No, not at all.
In early medieval Hungary,
Freemen could be sold into slavery for numerous crimes. Any common woman (plebeia) caught in adultery would be sold 'without the hope of freedom' (sine spe libertatis), and the same fate awaited a common man caught in the same sin.
(Cameron Sutt, Slavery in ÃÂrpád-era Hungary in a Comparative Context, BRILL, 2015, ISBN 9789004301580)
In some western European countries, early Germanic penal codes had similar provisions.
In medieval China they sold the convicts far away, in the poor provinces at the margins of the empire.
The early modern English sold them across the ocean, in America.
But what about the rich? And their goons?
The rich were rich anyway. The rules did not apply to them. A rich Roman (or a rich Chinese) could never be enslaved or God forbid! executed; the worst of the worst was exile (which implied loss of property) but this was exceedingly rare, the usual maximum punishment for a rich criminal being relegation (sort of like exile, but without complete loss of property).
And their goons? Well, rich people did not stay rich by spending money on slaves which they intended to manumit immediately, not to mention that it would have been against social decorum to do that; and in a pre-modern society, loss of face (or, as they called in Europe, dishonour) was to be avoided at all costs.
2
The Orients used to deal in the slave trade quite a bit. In Japan, many/most of the geisha houses were made up entirely of women who where sold as children to pay off a family debt. The madame/mama-san was almost always one of these geishas who had either saved up enough money to buy their own contract or were lucky enough to earn the right to inherit the house when the previous mama-san died or retired. This form of slavery was so well honored that previous slaves enslaved others, as odd as that sounds to Westerners/modern society.
â computercarguy
18 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
40
down vote
up vote
40
down vote
It used to be commonplace
The question show a misconception about pre-modern societies. They were not modern societies in which people dressed funny and had a handful of unusual laws; they were profoundly alien. As it is said, the past is a foreign country.
First of all, in pre-modern societies they had no concept of imprisonment as a form of punishment. Misdeeds were of only two kinds: most of them incurred some sort of fine, or price, to be paid; the others called for the capital punishment.
What exactly qualified for capital punishment varied from place to place and from time to time. Murder was a capital crime in the classical world, but not so much in the early Germanic Middle Ages, where it called for payment of a man-price, or weregild. On the other hand, all pre-Renaissance penal codes were very harsh on adultery and other forms of domestic treason.
Enslavement was a form of capital punishment.
The Romans called it capitis deminutio maxima, the greatest diminishment of the head. In early Rome, it involved selling the convict across the border, trans Tiberim, on the other side of the river Tiber. In more civilized times, it involved usually making the convict a slave of their punishment, servus poenae, and selling them to work in a mine, damnatio ad metalla.
The point is that it was a capital punishment. (Capital from caput, head.) The person was legally dead. Their wealth was either confiscated or passed to their heirs. They could not come back from the dead, and enslavement was assimilated with death, servitus morti adsimulatur.
Even if they were miraculously set free (which was usually not possible, because they were branded before being sold, and branded slaves could not be manumitted), they had no family, no relations. Wait, a modern person will say, but this was a legal fiction; of course their natural family would recognize them. Nope, not so; the past is a foreign country, and the Romans tooks family very seriously, and would never welcome an unrelated former convict.
Were the Romans the only one to practice penal slavery?
No, not at all.
In early medieval Hungary,
Freemen could be sold into slavery for numerous crimes. Any common woman (plebeia) caught in adultery would be sold 'without the hope of freedom' (sine spe libertatis), and the same fate awaited a common man caught in the same sin.
(Cameron Sutt, Slavery in ÃÂrpád-era Hungary in a Comparative Context, BRILL, 2015, ISBN 9789004301580)
In some western European countries, early Germanic penal codes had similar provisions.
In medieval China they sold the convicts far away, in the poor provinces at the margins of the empire.
The early modern English sold them across the ocean, in America.
But what about the rich? And their goons?
The rich were rich anyway. The rules did not apply to them. A rich Roman (or a rich Chinese) could never be enslaved or God forbid! executed; the worst of the worst was exile (which implied loss of property) but this was exceedingly rare, the usual maximum punishment for a rich criminal being relegation (sort of like exile, but without complete loss of property).
And their goons? Well, rich people did not stay rich by spending money on slaves which they intended to manumit immediately, not to mention that it would have been against social decorum to do that; and in a pre-modern society, loss of face (or, as they called in Europe, dishonour) was to be avoided at all costs.
It used to be commonplace
The question show a misconception about pre-modern societies. They were not modern societies in which people dressed funny and had a handful of unusual laws; they were profoundly alien. As it is said, the past is a foreign country.
First of all, in pre-modern societies they had no concept of imprisonment as a form of punishment. Misdeeds were of only two kinds: most of them incurred some sort of fine, or price, to be paid; the others called for the capital punishment.
What exactly qualified for capital punishment varied from place to place and from time to time. Murder was a capital crime in the classical world, but not so much in the early Germanic Middle Ages, where it called for payment of a man-price, or weregild. On the other hand, all pre-Renaissance penal codes were very harsh on adultery and other forms of domestic treason.
Enslavement was a form of capital punishment.
The Romans called it capitis deminutio maxima, the greatest diminishment of the head. In early Rome, it involved selling the convict across the border, trans Tiberim, on the other side of the river Tiber. In more civilized times, it involved usually making the convict a slave of their punishment, servus poenae, and selling them to work in a mine, damnatio ad metalla.
The point is that it was a capital punishment. (Capital from caput, head.) The person was legally dead. Their wealth was either confiscated or passed to their heirs. They could not come back from the dead, and enslavement was assimilated with death, servitus morti adsimulatur.
Even if they were miraculously set free (which was usually not possible, because they were branded before being sold, and branded slaves could not be manumitted), they had no family, no relations. Wait, a modern person will say, but this was a legal fiction; of course their natural family would recognize them. Nope, not so; the past is a foreign country, and the Romans tooks family very seriously, and would never welcome an unrelated former convict.
Were the Romans the only one to practice penal slavery?
No, not at all.
In early medieval Hungary,
Freemen could be sold into slavery for numerous crimes. Any common woman (plebeia) caught in adultery would be sold 'without the hope of freedom' (sine spe libertatis), and the same fate awaited a common man caught in the same sin.
(Cameron Sutt, Slavery in ÃÂrpád-era Hungary in a Comparative Context, BRILL, 2015, ISBN 9789004301580)
In some western European countries, early Germanic penal codes had similar provisions.
In medieval China they sold the convicts far away, in the poor provinces at the margins of the empire.
The early modern English sold them across the ocean, in America.
But what about the rich? And their goons?
The rich were rich anyway. The rules did not apply to them. A rich Roman (or a rich Chinese) could never be enslaved or God forbid! executed; the worst of the worst was exile (which implied loss of property) but this was exceedingly rare, the usual maximum punishment for a rich criminal being relegation (sort of like exile, but without complete loss of property).
And their goons? Well, rich people did not stay rich by spending money on slaves which they intended to manumit immediately, not to mention that it would have been against social decorum to do that; and in a pre-modern society, loss of face (or, as they called in Europe, dishonour) was to be avoided at all costs.
edited 14 hours ago
Brythan
19.8k74282
19.8k74282
answered 20 hours ago
AlexP
33.2k775126
33.2k775126
2
The Orients used to deal in the slave trade quite a bit. In Japan, many/most of the geisha houses were made up entirely of women who where sold as children to pay off a family debt. The madame/mama-san was almost always one of these geishas who had either saved up enough money to buy their own contract or were lucky enough to earn the right to inherit the house when the previous mama-san died or retired. This form of slavery was so well honored that previous slaves enslaved others, as odd as that sounds to Westerners/modern society.
â computercarguy
18 hours ago
add a comment |Â
2
The Orients used to deal in the slave trade quite a bit. In Japan, many/most of the geisha houses were made up entirely of women who where sold as children to pay off a family debt. The madame/mama-san was almost always one of these geishas who had either saved up enough money to buy their own contract or were lucky enough to earn the right to inherit the house when the previous mama-san died or retired. This form of slavery was so well honored that previous slaves enslaved others, as odd as that sounds to Westerners/modern society.
â computercarguy
18 hours ago
2
2
The Orients used to deal in the slave trade quite a bit. In Japan, many/most of the geisha houses were made up entirely of women who where sold as children to pay off a family debt. The madame/mama-san was almost always one of these geishas who had either saved up enough money to buy their own contract or were lucky enough to earn the right to inherit the house when the previous mama-san died or retired. This form of slavery was so well honored that previous slaves enslaved others, as odd as that sounds to Westerners/modern society.
â computercarguy
18 hours ago
The Orients used to deal in the slave trade quite a bit. In Japan, many/most of the geisha houses were made up entirely of women who where sold as children to pay off a family debt. The madame/mama-san was almost always one of these geishas who had either saved up enough money to buy their own contract or were lucky enough to earn the right to inherit the house when the previous mama-san died or retired. This form of slavery was so well honored that previous slaves enslaved others, as odd as that sounds to Westerners/modern society.
â computercarguy
18 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
10
down vote
All prisoners are property of the Government during their sentence. The "owners" don't buy them, just hire them for long periods.
In a medieval society, because sentences need to be really harsh, you need to use those slaves only for the most dangerous jobs, like rowing ships, working in mines, etc. If not, people will commit crimes and then ran away during their slavery time, because the Government has almost no security forces and just by traveling 100 km nobody knows you.
2
Although not exactly the same a similar principle is that in England all land technically belongs to the Crown, people who "own" land or houses have a freehold on the estate.
â Sarriesfan
20 hours ago
2
Sounds like "Slavery-as-a-service". :P
â GentlePurpleRain
18 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
10
down vote
All prisoners are property of the Government during their sentence. The "owners" don't buy them, just hire them for long periods.
In a medieval society, because sentences need to be really harsh, you need to use those slaves only for the most dangerous jobs, like rowing ships, working in mines, etc. If not, people will commit crimes and then ran away during their slavery time, because the Government has almost no security forces and just by traveling 100 km nobody knows you.
2
Although not exactly the same a similar principle is that in England all land technically belongs to the Crown, people who "own" land or houses have a freehold on the estate.
â Sarriesfan
20 hours ago
2
Sounds like "Slavery-as-a-service". :P
â GentlePurpleRain
18 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
10
down vote
up vote
10
down vote
All prisoners are property of the Government during their sentence. The "owners" don't buy them, just hire them for long periods.
In a medieval society, because sentences need to be really harsh, you need to use those slaves only for the most dangerous jobs, like rowing ships, working in mines, etc. If not, people will commit crimes and then ran away during their slavery time, because the Government has almost no security forces and just by traveling 100 km nobody knows you.
All prisoners are property of the Government during their sentence. The "owners" don't buy them, just hire them for long periods.
In a medieval society, because sentences need to be really harsh, you need to use those slaves only for the most dangerous jobs, like rowing ships, working in mines, etc. If not, people will commit crimes and then ran away during their slavery time, because the Government has almost no security forces and just by traveling 100 km nobody knows you.
edited 14 hours ago
Brythan
19.8k74282
19.8k74282
answered 22 hours ago
Alberto Yagos
4,857829
4,857829
2
Although not exactly the same a similar principle is that in England all land technically belongs to the Crown, people who "own" land or houses have a freehold on the estate.
â Sarriesfan
20 hours ago
2
Sounds like "Slavery-as-a-service". :P
â GentlePurpleRain
18 hours ago
add a comment |Â
2
Although not exactly the same a similar principle is that in England all land technically belongs to the Crown, people who "own" land or houses have a freehold on the estate.
â Sarriesfan
20 hours ago
2
Sounds like "Slavery-as-a-service". :P
â GentlePurpleRain
18 hours ago
2
2
Although not exactly the same a similar principle is that in England all land technically belongs to the Crown, people who "own" land or houses have a freehold on the estate.
â Sarriesfan
20 hours ago
Although not exactly the same a similar principle is that in England all land technically belongs to the Crown, people who "own" land or houses have a freehold on the estate.
â Sarriesfan
20 hours ago
2
2
Sounds like "Slavery-as-a-service". :P
â GentlePurpleRain
18 hours ago
Sounds like "Slavery-as-a-service". :P
â GentlePurpleRain
18 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
Face Branding
Just brand each prisoner's face so no one ever gets the wrong idea about them being free. Funny enough, this was used for the purpose of slaves in our own history. I want to point out one group specifically which were branded by the Roman Catholic church.
In the 16th century, German Anabaptists were branded with a cross on their foreheads for refusing to recant their faith and join the Roman Catholic church.
For some reason if your cringing at the thought, branding another place that is clearly visible would be possible. Think hands, neck, ankles.
Edit: It was pointed out in the comments I should put in a bit more detail, so I will answer your question directly.
Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations.
How can I prevent this problem but allow the sale of prisoners?
We cannot prevent all criminals from gaining back their old life but we can prevent them from rebuilding anything public facing. Not to mention, ostracizing people is a strong punishment in itself.
The easiest way to ostracize someone is to make them different from everyone else in a bad way. In the Southern states of the USA there were slaves, but every one had a single feature that made them different; a black skin color. Just by looking at a person in the south you could guess who was or was not a slave. This is a powerful force as all of society is enforcing your slavery.
Now you need the same solution, but applicable to any person without undue cost. This requires a clear marking that no one can ignore, removing body parts and permanent disfiguration are the easiest solutions. removing body parts may damage their ability to contribute so that is out. disfiguration only works on easily seen parts of the body and hiding your whole face is hard in society.
This man was a Siberian convict of Russia. Without even knowing that, having those marks on his face clearly sets him apart from most people. He will never get away from the past even if he was set free.
If you would rather go with the amputation method Iran recently made a machine that does it for you. Losing a finger for your crime is a clear disfiguration for the purpose of this question.
You should expand on how this prevents the problem the OP is worried about, I can see it but it is not explicit.
â John
12 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
Face Branding
Just brand each prisoner's face so no one ever gets the wrong idea about them being free. Funny enough, this was used for the purpose of slaves in our own history. I want to point out one group specifically which were branded by the Roman Catholic church.
In the 16th century, German Anabaptists were branded with a cross on their foreheads for refusing to recant their faith and join the Roman Catholic church.
For some reason if your cringing at the thought, branding another place that is clearly visible would be possible. Think hands, neck, ankles.
Edit: It was pointed out in the comments I should put in a bit more detail, so I will answer your question directly.
Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations.
How can I prevent this problem but allow the sale of prisoners?
We cannot prevent all criminals from gaining back their old life but we can prevent them from rebuilding anything public facing. Not to mention, ostracizing people is a strong punishment in itself.
The easiest way to ostracize someone is to make them different from everyone else in a bad way. In the Southern states of the USA there were slaves, but every one had a single feature that made them different; a black skin color. Just by looking at a person in the south you could guess who was or was not a slave. This is a powerful force as all of society is enforcing your slavery.
Now you need the same solution, but applicable to any person without undue cost. This requires a clear marking that no one can ignore, removing body parts and permanent disfiguration are the easiest solutions. removing body parts may damage their ability to contribute so that is out. disfiguration only works on easily seen parts of the body and hiding your whole face is hard in society.
This man was a Siberian convict of Russia. Without even knowing that, having those marks on his face clearly sets him apart from most people. He will never get away from the past even if he was set free.
If you would rather go with the amputation method Iran recently made a machine that does it for you. Losing a finger for your crime is a clear disfiguration for the purpose of this question.
You should expand on how this prevents the problem the OP is worried about, I can see it but it is not explicit.
â John
12 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
up vote
6
down vote
Face Branding
Just brand each prisoner's face so no one ever gets the wrong idea about them being free. Funny enough, this was used for the purpose of slaves in our own history. I want to point out one group specifically which were branded by the Roman Catholic church.
In the 16th century, German Anabaptists were branded with a cross on their foreheads for refusing to recant their faith and join the Roman Catholic church.
For some reason if your cringing at the thought, branding another place that is clearly visible would be possible. Think hands, neck, ankles.
Edit: It was pointed out in the comments I should put in a bit more detail, so I will answer your question directly.
Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations.
How can I prevent this problem but allow the sale of prisoners?
We cannot prevent all criminals from gaining back their old life but we can prevent them from rebuilding anything public facing. Not to mention, ostracizing people is a strong punishment in itself.
The easiest way to ostracize someone is to make them different from everyone else in a bad way. In the Southern states of the USA there were slaves, but every one had a single feature that made them different; a black skin color. Just by looking at a person in the south you could guess who was or was not a slave. This is a powerful force as all of society is enforcing your slavery.
Now you need the same solution, but applicable to any person without undue cost. This requires a clear marking that no one can ignore, removing body parts and permanent disfiguration are the easiest solutions. removing body parts may damage their ability to contribute so that is out. disfiguration only works on easily seen parts of the body and hiding your whole face is hard in society.
This man was a Siberian convict of Russia. Without even knowing that, having those marks on his face clearly sets him apart from most people. He will never get away from the past even if he was set free.
If you would rather go with the amputation method Iran recently made a machine that does it for you. Losing a finger for your crime is a clear disfiguration for the purpose of this question.
Face Branding
Just brand each prisoner's face so no one ever gets the wrong idea about them being free. Funny enough, this was used for the purpose of slaves in our own history. I want to point out one group specifically which were branded by the Roman Catholic church.
In the 16th century, German Anabaptists were branded with a cross on their foreheads for refusing to recant their faith and join the Roman Catholic church.
For some reason if your cringing at the thought, branding another place that is clearly visible would be possible. Think hands, neck, ankles.
Edit: It was pointed out in the comments I should put in a bit more detail, so I will answer your question directly.
Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations.
How can I prevent this problem but allow the sale of prisoners?
We cannot prevent all criminals from gaining back their old life but we can prevent them from rebuilding anything public facing. Not to mention, ostracizing people is a strong punishment in itself.
The easiest way to ostracize someone is to make them different from everyone else in a bad way. In the Southern states of the USA there were slaves, but every one had a single feature that made them different; a black skin color. Just by looking at a person in the south you could guess who was or was not a slave. This is a powerful force as all of society is enforcing your slavery.
Now you need the same solution, but applicable to any person without undue cost. This requires a clear marking that no one can ignore, removing body parts and permanent disfiguration are the easiest solutions. removing body parts may damage their ability to contribute so that is out. disfiguration only works on easily seen parts of the body and hiding your whole face is hard in society.
This man was a Siberian convict of Russia. Without even knowing that, having those marks on his face clearly sets him apart from most people. He will never get away from the past even if he was set free.
If you would rather go with the amputation method Iran recently made a machine that does it for you. Losing a finger for your crime is a clear disfiguration for the purpose of this question.
edited 2 hours ago
answered 19 hours ago
Reed
1,876414
1,876414
You should expand on how this prevents the problem the OP is worried about, I can see it but it is not explicit.
â John
12 hours ago
add a comment |Â
You should expand on how this prevents the problem the OP is worried about, I can see it but it is not explicit.
â John
12 hours ago
You should expand on how this prevents the problem the OP is worried about, I can see it but it is not explicit.
â John
12 hours ago
You should expand on how this prevents the problem the OP is worried about, I can see it but it is not explicit.
â John
12 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
Make owners responsible for their slaves. This is a replacement for imprisonment. So there would be a sentence length. Using their lifeforce reduces the sentence length. But otherwise, their period of enslavement is determined by the original judging entity. Purchasers cannot reduce it arbitrarily. Further, because they are responsible for crimes that their slaves may commit, this means that if a slave commits another crime, the purchaser also goes to jail. Eventually the slave runs out of friends and family members.
This allows for slaves to be bought for lifeforce. This reduces their sentence. The healers administrate that part. Slaves may also be bought for labor. But then the owner becomes responsible for the slave. Hostile owners will hire guards, etc. Friendly owners might try to do this, but then they are subject to arrest when they fail to restrict their slave.
You can further reinforce this with some arbitrary restrictions. For example, slaves may not be allowed outside on their own after dark. Break that and the slave goes back to jail for resale. The owner loses whatever investment was made to free the slave.
Other potential rules:
- Slaves can't talk to free women, even their mothers, sisters, and daughters.
- Slaves can't speak back to free people.
- Slaves can't strike free people.
- Slaves may not be allowed to drink alcohol.
- Slaves may not be allowed to drink from free fountains.
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
Make owners responsible for their slaves. This is a replacement for imprisonment. So there would be a sentence length. Using their lifeforce reduces the sentence length. But otherwise, their period of enslavement is determined by the original judging entity. Purchasers cannot reduce it arbitrarily. Further, because they are responsible for crimes that their slaves may commit, this means that if a slave commits another crime, the purchaser also goes to jail. Eventually the slave runs out of friends and family members.
This allows for slaves to be bought for lifeforce. This reduces their sentence. The healers administrate that part. Slaves may also be bought for labor. But then the owner becomes responsible for the slave. Hostile owners will hire guards, etc. Friendly owners might try to do this, but then they are subject to arrest when they fail to restrict their slave.
You can further reinforce this with some arbitrary restrictions. For example, slaves may not be allowed outside on their own after dark. Break that and the slave goes back to jail for resale. The owner loses whatever investment was made to free the slave.
Other potential rules:
- Slaves can't talk to free women, even their mothers, sisters, and daughters.
- Slaves can't speak back to free people.
- Slaves can't strike free people.
- Slaves may not be allowed to drink alcohol.
- Slaves may not be allowed to drink from free fountains.
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
Make owners responsible for their slaves. This is a replacement for imprisonment. So there would be a sentence length. Using their lifeforce reduces the sentence length. But otherwise, their period of enslavement is determined by the original judging entity. Purchasers cannot reduce it arbitrarily. Further, because they are responsible for crimes that their slaves may commit, this means that if a slave commits another crime, the purchaser also goes to jail. Eventually the slave runs out of friends and family members.
This allows for slaves to be bought for lifeforce. This reduces their sentence. The healers administrate that part. Slaves may also be bought for labor. But then the owner becomes responsible for the slave. Hostile owners will hire guards, etc. Friendly owners might try to do this, but then they are subject to arrest when they fail to restrict their slave.
You can further reinforce this with some arbitrary restrictions. For example, slaves may not be allowed outside on their own after dark. Break that and the slave goes back to jail for resale. The owner loses whatever investment was made to free the slave.
Other potential rules:
- Slaves can't talk to free women, even their mothers, sisters, and daughters.
- Slaves can't speak back to free people.
- Slaves can't strike free people.
- Slaves may not be allowed to drink alcohol.
- Slaves may not be allowed to drink from free fountains.
Make owners responsible for their slaves. This is a replacement for imprisonment. So there would be a sentence length. Using their lifeforce reduces the sentence length. But otherwise, their period of enslavement is determined by the original judging entity. Purchasers cannot reduce it arbitrarily. Further, because they are responsible for crimes that their slaves may commit, this means that if a slave commits another crime, the purchaser also goes to jail. Eventually the slave runs out of friends and family members.
This allows for slaves to be bought for lifeforce. This reduces their sentence. The healers administrate that part. Slaves may also be bought for labor. But then the owner becomes responsible for the slave. Hostile owners will hire guards, etc. Friendly owners might try to do this, but then they are subject to arrest when they fail to restrict their slave.
You can further reinforce this with some arbitrary restrictions. For example, slaves may not be allowed outside on their own after dark. Break that and the slave goes back to jail for resale. The owner loses whatever investment was made to free the slave.
Other potential rules:
- Slaves can't talk to free women, even their mothers, sisters, and daughters.
- Slaves can't speak back to free people.
- Slaves can't strike free people.
- Slaves may not be allowed to drink alcohol.
- Slaves may not be allowed to drink from free fountains.
answered 14 hours ago
Brythan
19.8k74282
19.8k74282
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up vote
3
down vote
Just like in real life, you could use parole officers to ensure the prisoners are being subjected to the punishments your government believes they should receive. Although real-life parole officers are more focused on the prisoner's background and activities outside of prison, your parole officers will be more focused on the buyer.
Before making the purchase, the buyer must agree to uphold whatever punishments/type of work/treatment that the prisoner should receive, and how long they will remain a prisoner(assuming it isn't for life). Upon buying a prisoner destined for slavery, the buyer must register themselves(if it's their first time) and the prisoner with the nearest parole officer/parole office. These officers will typically be part of your government's normal police/military jurisdictions.
After registering, the buyer will be subjected to periodic, and ideally random, inspections of the prisoner-turned-slave's working conditions. If the parole officer is suspicious that the buyer is not adhering to the conditions they agreed to before the purchase, the officer can issue warnings and set up more thorough, and again random, investigations.
Should the buyer be found beyond a reasonable doubt to be treating the slaves better/worse than they should, then the slave may be taken away from the buyer without compensation. Repeated or particularly egregious offenses, such as killing, maiming, or releasing them, could result in a complete ban from further purchases.
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
Just like in real life, you could use parole officers to ensure the prisoners are being subjected to the punishments your government believes they should receive. Although real-life parole officers are more focused on the prisoner's background and activities outside of prison, your parole officers will be more focused on the buyer.
Before making the purchase, the buyer must agree to uphold whatever punishments/type of work/treatment that the prisoner should receive, and how long they will remain a prisoner(assuming it isn't for life). Upon buying a prisoner destined for slavery, the buyer must register themselves(if it's their first time) and the prisoner with the nearest parole officer/parole office. These officers will typically be part of your government's normal police/military jurisdictions.
After registering, the buyer will be subjected to periodic, and ideally random, inspections of the prisoner-turned-slave's working conditions. If the parole officer is suspicious that the buyer is not adhering to the conditions they agreed to before the purchase, the officer can issue warnings and set up more thorough, and again random, investigations.
Should the buyer be found beyond a reasonable doubt to be treating the slaves better/worse than they should, then the slave may be taken away from the buyer without compensation. Repeated or particularly egregious offenses, such as killing, maiming, or releasing them, could result in a complete ban from further purchases.
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Just like in real life, you could use parole officers to ensure the prisoners are being subjected to the punishments your government believes they should receive. Although real-life parole officers are more focused on the prisoner's background and activities outside of prison, your parole officers will be more focused on the buyer.
Before making the purchase, the buyer must agree to uphold whatever punishments/type of work/treatment that the prisoner should receive, and how long they will remain a prisoner(assuming it isn't for life). Upon buying a prisoner destined for slavery, the buyer must register themselves(if it's their first time) and the prisoner with the nearest parole officer/parole office. These officers will typically be part of your government's normal police/military jurisdictions.
After registering, the buyer will be subjected to periodic, and ideally random, inspections of the prisoner-turned-slave's working conditions. If the parole officer is suspicious that the buyer is not adhering to the conditions they agreed to before the purchase, the officer can issue warnings and set up more thorough, and again random, investigations.
Should the buyer be found beyond a reasonable doubt to be treating the slaves better/worse than they should, then the slave may be taken away from the buyer without compensation. Repeated or particularly egregious offenses, such as killing, maiming, or releasing them, could result in a complete ban from further purchases.
Just like in real life, you could use parole officers to ensure the prisoners are being subjected to the punishments your government believes they should receive. Although real-life parole officers are more focused on the prisoner's background and activities outside of prison, your parole officers will be more focused on the buyer.
Before making the purchase, the buyer must agree to uphold whatever punishments/type of work/treatment that the prisoner should receive, and how long they will remain a prisoner(assuming it isn't for life). Upon buying a prisoner destined for slavery, the buyer must register themselves(if it's their first time) and the prisoner with the nearest parole officer/parole office. These officers will typically be part of your government's normal police/military jurisdictions.
After registering, the buyer will be subjected to periodic, and ideally random, inspections of the prisoner-turned-slave's working conditions. If the parole officer is suspicious that the buyer is not adhering to the conditions they agreed to before the purchase, the officer can issue warnings and set up more thorough, and again random, investigations.
Should the buyer be found beyond a reasonable doubt to be treating the slaves better/worse than they should, then the slave may be taken away from the buyer without compensation. Repeated or particularly egregious offenses, such as killing, maiming, or releasing them, could result in a complete ban from further purchases.
edited 21 hours ago
answered 21 hours ago
Giter
11k42736
11k42736
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
There is no such thing as personal property
The kingdom is an absolutist monarchy, along the lines of Pharaonic Egypt, Imperial China, or Achaemenid Persia. The king 'owns' everything in the country. If you have money or power, then you can pay the God-king for his material favors, or they could be granted to you as a divine boon.
But, there is no concept of 'ownership' at all. Everything that is, belongs to the God-king; the best anyone else can hope for is the right of possession (which could of course be revoked by the king at any time).
In this way, slaves are the property of the king, as is everything; but right merchants, guilds, lords and sundry can pay the king for the right to tell these slaves what to do.
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
There is no such thing as personal property
The kingdom is an absolutist monarchy, along the lines of Pharaonic Egypt, Imperial China, or Achaemenid Persia. The king 'owns' everything in the country. If you have money or power, then you can pay the God-king for his material favors, or they could be granted to you as a divine boon.
But, there is no concept of 'ownership' at all. Everything that is, belongs to the God-king; the best anyone else can hope for is the right of possession (which could of course be revoked by the king at any time).
In this way, slaves are the property of the king, as is everything; but right merchants, guilds, lords and sundry can pay the king for the right to tell these slaves what to do.
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
There is no such thing as personal property
The kingdom is an absolutist monarchy, along the lines of Pharaonic Egypt, Imperial China, or Achaemenid Persia. The king 'owns' everything in the country. If you have money or power, then you can pay the God-king for his material favors, or they could be granted to you as a divine boon.
But, there is no concept of 'ownership' at all. Everything that is, belongs to the God-king; the best anyone else can hope for is the right of possession (which could of course be revoked by the king at any time).
In this way, slaves are the property of the king, as is everything; but right merchants, guilds, lords and sundry can pay the king for the right to tell these slaves what to do.
There is no such thing as personal property
The kingdom is an absolutist monarchy, along the lines of Pharaonic Egypt, Imperial China, or Achaemenid Persia. The king 'owns' everything in the country. If you have money or power, then you can pay the God-king for his material favors, or they could be granted to you as a divine boon.
But, there is no concept of 'ownership' at all. Everything that is, belongs to the God-king; the best anyone else can hope for is the right of possession (which could of course be revoked by the king at any time).
In this way, slaves are the property of the king, as is everything; but right merchants, guilds, lords and sundry can pay the king for the right to tell these slaves what to do.
answered 19 hours ago
kingledion
67k22223381
67k22223381
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
Just back off the concept that buyers can always buy a prisoner. If your rich guy commits a crime, he becomes a prisoner that cannot be bought.
Or you put restrictions on who can buy him; nobody that knows him. Or the government authorizes certain hard labor camps (mining, farming, gladiators) to buy such prisoners, and nobody else. And confiscate all his property and money while you are at it, so even if some friend could by subterfuge find a way to buy him out of slavery, the rich guy isn't rich anymore and cannot pay his friend back, because he has nothing.
There are many ways out of your dilemma, just do not assume the rules have to be simple or fair. You are allowing legal slavery for god's sake.
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
Just back off the concept that buyers can always buy a prisoner. If your rich guy commits a crime, he becomes a prisoner that cannot be bought.
Or you put restrictions on who can buy him; nobody that knows him. Or the government authorizes certain hard labor camps (mining, farming, gladiators) to buy such prisoners, and nobody else. And confiscate all his property and money while you are at it, so even if some friend could by subterfuge find a way to buy him out of slavery, the rich guy isn't rich anymore and cannot pay his friend back, because he has nothing.
There are many ways out of your dilemma, just do not assume the rules have to be simple or fair. You are allowing legal slavery for god's sake.
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Just back off the concept that buyers can always buy a prisoner. If your rich guy commits a crime, he becomes a prisoner that cannot be bought.
Or you put restrictions on who can buy him; nobody that knows him. Or the government authorizes certain hard labor camps (mining, farming, gladiators) to buy such prisoners, and nobody else. And confiscate all his property and money while you are at it, so even if some friend could by subterfuge find a way to buy him out of slavery, the rich guy isn't rich anymore and cannot pay his friend back, because he has nothing.
There are many ways out of your dilemma, just do not assume the rules have to be simple or fair. You are allowing legal slavery for god's sake.
Just back off the concept that buyers can always buy a prisoner. If your rich guy commits a crime, he becomes a prisoner that cannot be bought.
Or you put restrictions on who can buy him; nobody that knows him. Or the government authorizes certain hard labor camps (mining, farming, gladiators) to buy such prisoners, and nobody else. And confiscate all his property and money while you are at it, so even if some friend could by subterfuge find a way to buy him out of slavery, the rich guy isn't rich anymore and cannot pay his friend back, because he has nothing.
There are many ways out of your dilemma, just do not assume the rules have to be simple or fair. You are allowing legal slavery for god's sake.
answered 18 hours ago
Amadeus
20.6k42980
20.6k42980
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations.
How can I prevent this problem but allow the sale of prisoners?
I think you could solve or mitigate this problem by thinking over who owns a newly-convicted prisoner by default.
In cases where it's the government of the day, they may have some good reason to not sell a criminal kingpin out of jail. There are some parallels between this and modern parole.
On the other hand, you could set up the system so that, for example, the surviving family of a murder victim decides if, and at what price, the convicted murderer can be "bailed out" of jail and into slavery. There may still be problems of duress, but at least they might be interesting ones.
On the final hand, "the law isn't a problem for the rich" isn't exactly unique to your situation.
New contributor
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations.
How can I prevent this problem but allow the sale of prisoners?
I think you could solve or mitigate this problem by thinking over who owns a newly-convicted prisoner by default.
In cases where it's the government of the day, they may have some good reason to not sell a criminal kingpin out of jail. There are some parallels between this and modern parole.
On the other hand, you could set up the system so that, for example, the surviving family of a murder victim decides if, and at what price, the convicted murderer can be "bailed out" of jail and into slavery. There may still be problems of duress, but at least they might be interesting ones.
On the final hand, "the law isn't a problem for the rich" isn't exactly unique to your situation.
New contributor
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations.
How can I prevent this problem but allow the sale of prisoners?
I think you could solve or mitigate this problem by thinking over who owns a newly-convicted prisoner by default.
In cases where it's the government of the day, they may have some good reason to not sell a criminal kingpin out of jail. There are some parallels between this and modern parole.
On the other hand, you could set up the system so that, for example, the surviving family of a murder victim decides if, and at what price, the convicted murderer can be "bailed out" of jail and into slavery. There may still be problems of duress, but at least they might be interesting ones.
On the final hand, "the law isn't a problem for the rich" isn't exactly unique to your situation.
New contributor
Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations.
How can I prevent this problem but allow the sale of prisoners?
I think you could solve or mitigate this problem by thinking over who owns a newly-convicted prisoner by default.
In cases where it's the government of the day, they may have some good reason to not sell a criminal kingpin out of jail. There are some parallels between this and modern parole.
On the other hand, you could set up the system so that, for example, the surviving family of a murder victim decides if, and at what price, the convicted murderer can be "bailed out" of jail and into slavery. There may still be problems of duress, but at least they might be interesting ones.
On the final hand, "the law isn't a problem for the rich" isn't exactly unique to your situation.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 21 hours ago
Roger
5145
5145
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Assign slaves to buyers randomly.
If your friend is sent to jail then you can buy all means request a slave. And the slave will be any one of the hundred prisoners taken in the last year or a slave from other means, maybe even one being sold back to the government. Unless you want to buy all of the slaves on the market you are pretty much out of luck.
If they did buy their freedom like a lottery then they will be punished financially and the government will be among those reaping the benefits of the mass slave buying.
1
Wouldn't the buyer want to see the slave before paying for him?
â Masclins
5 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Assign slaves to buyers randomly.
If your friend is sent to jail then you can buy all means request a slave. And the slave will be any one of the hundred prisoners taken in the last year or a slave from other means, maybe even one being sold back to the government. Unless you want to buy all of the slaves on the market you are pretty much out of luck.
If they did buy their freedom like a lottery then they will be punished financially and the government will be among those reaping the benefits of the mass slave buying.
1
Wouldn't the buyer want to see the slave before paying for him?
â Masclins
5 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Assign slaves to buyers randomly.
If your friend is sent to jail then you can buy all means request a slave. And the slave will be any one of the hundred prisoners taken in the last year or a slave from other means, maybe even one being sold back to the government. Unless you want to buy all of the slaves on the market you are pretty much out of luck.
If they did buy their freedom like a lottery then they will be punished financially and the government will be among those reaping the benefits of the mass slave buying.
Assign slaves to buyers randomly.
If your friend is sent to jail then you can buy all means request a slave. And the slave will be any one of the hundred prisoners taken in the last year or a slave from other means, maybe even one being sold back to the government. Unless you want to buy all of the slaves on the market you are pretty much out of luck.
If they did buy their freedom like a lottery then they will be punished financially and the government will be among those reaping the benefits of the mass slave buying.
answered 5 hours ago
PStag
1,708716
1,708716
1
Wouldn't the buyer want to see the slave before paying for him?
â Masclins
5 hours ago
add a comment |Â
1
Wouldn't the buyer want to see the slave before paying for him?
â Masclins
5 hours ago
1
1
Wouldn't the buyer want to see the slave before paying for him?
â Masclins
5 hours ago
Wouldn't the buyer want to see the slave before paying for him?
â Masclins
5 hours ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
You can ask them to serve you for an amount of time base on their crime level. For example, if they are killers, so if the rich guy wants to buy them, they must serve him 5 years before released and cannot be sold in that time.
New contributor
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
You can ask them to serve you for an amount of time base on their crime level. For example, if they are killers, so if the rich guy wants to buy them, they must serve him 5 years before released and cannot be sold in that time.
New contributor
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
You can ask them to serve you for an amount of time base on their crime level. For example, if they are killers, so if the rich guy wants to buy them, they must serve him 5 years before released and cannot be sold in that time.
New contributor
You can ask them to serve you for an amount of time base on their crime level. For example, if they are killers, so if the rich guy wants to buy them, they must serve him 5 years before released and cannot be sold in that time.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 12 hours ago
quang le
1
1
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
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2
This used to happen, at some times in some places; sell them across the border (to barbarians), or sell them in a faraway (and dirt-poor) province. As for the problem as stated, that rich people and their goons will go free, this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of pre-modern justice. The entire point was to compel the criminal to pay the weregeld, the price of the victim. In the Antiquity and the Middle Ages there was no concept of prison as punishment; the punishment was either a fine, or else death. Enslavement was a form of capital punishment.
â AlexP
21 hours ago
2
So the problem is that slavery reduces to a fine (the price of buying the slave). Is that necessarily a problem?
â Thomas
16 hours ago
@Thomas given my initial thought it was a problem, because of rich people or assassin/thief guilds could pay for it, but applying some of the answers suggestion it seems not. Anyway, I'll wait for one or two days before accept an answer.
â Ender Look
15 hours ago
1
"Basically, the law won't be any problem for rich or illegal organizations" - historically, this has been a pretty common state of affairs.
â Geoffrey Brent
6 hours ago
1
This is already done in the United States and is completely legal. Yes, slavery is legal in the United States of America under certain conditions, and is very heavily utilized by many companies.
â forest
6 hours ago