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At what angle should an ice piton be screwed into the ice?
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Recently we were climbing up a glacier with the ice at an angle of around 80°. We were placing the ice screws (pitons) angling slightly upwards with respect to the slope of the ice wall.
However, one from our team, who stays in Norway said that the screws should always be angled downwards such that the weight is taken completely by the threads of the screw and not by the ice patch surrounding the ice screw. Apparently, this is how he was taught by a guide while climbing up a frozen waterfall.
For us, it felt natural to angle up the ice screws so that in case of a fall, the screw held on to the ice (similar to angling the pegs of a tent away from the tent). The claim that the weight of a fall should be taken completely by the ice screw and its threads seems a bit risky to me.
So is the claim correct? What's the general practice? Does the practice vary for a waterfall climb (as damaging the ice there could potentially lead to a whole slab of the waterfall falling off?)?
safety gear climbing ice-climbing ice-screws
edited 48 mins ago
Charlie Brumbaugh
41.7k14111239
asked 59 mins ago
Ricketyship
5,60421757
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
Recently we were climbing up a glacier with the ice at an angle of around 80°. We were placing the ice screws (pitons) angling slightly upwards with respect to the slope of the ice wall.
However, one from our team, who stays in Norway said that the screws should always be angled downwards such that the weight is taken completely by the threads of the screw and not by the ice patch surrounding the ice screw. Apparently, this is how he was taught by a guide while climbing up a frozen waterfall.
For us, it felt natural to angle up the ice screws so that in case of a fall, the screw held on to the ice (similar to angling the pegs of a tent away from the tent). The claim that the weight of a fall should be taken completely by the ice screw and its threads seems a bit risky to me.
So is the claim correct? What's the general practice? Does the practice vary for a waterfall climb (as damaging the ice there could potentially lead to a whole slab of the waterfall falling off?)?
safety gear climbing ice-climbing ice-screws
edited 48 mins ago
Charlie Brumbaugh
41.7k14111239
asked 59 mins ago
Ricketyship
5,60421757
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
Recently we were climbing up a glacier with the ice at an angle of around 80°. We were placing the ice screws (pitons) angling slightly upwards with respect to the slope of the ice wall.
However, one from our team, who stays in Norway said that the screws should always be angled downwards such that the weight is taken completely by the threads of the screw and not by the ice patch surrounding the ice screw. Apparently, this is how he was taught by a guide while climbing up a frozen waterfall.
For us, it felt natural to angle up the ice screws so that in case of a fall, the screw held on to the ice (similar to angling the pegs of a tent away from the tent). The claim that the weight of a fall should be taken completely by the ice screw and its threads seems a bit risky to me.
So is the claim correct? What's the general practice? Does the practice vary for a waterfall climb (as damaging the ice there could potentially lead to a whole slab of the waterfall falling off?)?
safety gear climbing ice-climbing ice-screws
edited 48 mins ago
Charlie Brumbaugh
41.7k14111239
asked 59 mins ago
Ricketyship
5,60421757
Recently we were climbing up a glacier with the ice at an angle of around 80°. We were placing the ice screws (pitons) angling slightly upwards with respect to the slope of the ice wall.
However, one from our team, who stays in Norway said that the screws should always be angled downwards such that the weight is taken completely by the threads of the screw and not by the ice patch surrounding the ice screw. Apparently, this is how he was taught by a guide while climbing up a frozen waterfall.
For us, it felt natural to angle up the ice screws so that in case of a fall, the screw held on to the ice (similar to angling the pegs of a tent away from the tent). The claim that the weight of a fall should be taken completely by the ice screw and its threads seems a bit risky to me.
So is the claim correct? What's the general practice? Does the practice vary for a waterfall climb (as damaging the ice there could potentially lead to a whole slab of the waterfall falling off?)?
safety gear climbing ice-climbing ice-screws
safety gear climbing ice-climbing ice-screws
edited 48 mins ago
Charlie Brumbaugh
41.7k14111239
asked 59 mins ago
Ricketyship
5,60421757
edited 48 mins ago
Charlie Brumbaugh
41.7k14111239
asked 59 mins ago
Ricketyship
5,60421757
edited 48 mins ago
Charlie Brumbaugh
41.7k14111239
edited 48 mins ago
Charlie Brumbaugh
41.7k14111239
edited 48 mins ago
Charlie Brumbaugh
41.7k14111239
41.7k14111239
asked 59 mins ago
Ricketyship
5,60421757
asked 59 mins ago
Ricketyship
5,60421757
asked 59 mins ago
Ricketyship
5,60421757
5,60421757
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
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oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
All of the resources that I can find say that it should be done with the end pointing up and the hanger down with up to a twenty degree angle from vertical.
More surprising were Harmston's findings about screw angle. As it turns out, screws hold much better when they're angled in the direction of the falling force, as in the second scenario above. Perhaps needless to say, this is not intuitive. Much of the force is then resisted by the threads rather than the girth of the screw itself. This isn't a small difference either: an ice screw placed at a downward angle is as much as twice as strong as a screw placed at an upward "negative" angle.
Gear Physics: How Ice Screws Keep Ice Climbers from Falling to Their Deaths
Limited testing by Chris Harmston of Black Diamond and Craig Luebben about 10 years ago showed that ice screws with the hanger end angled down (negative angle) up to 20 degrees were stronger than screws with the hanger parallel to the ice or angled slightly up (positive angle). A negative angle does not, however, increase the strength of the threads; rather, it decreases the chance that the ice will blow out from under the screw.
Should I Angle Ice Screws Down?
Contrary to what you might think, the best angle for the screws is slightly upward, meaning the hanger is slightly lower than the teeth in the ice. This counterintuitive method is better because the holding power comes from the threads themselves and not from a “snow picket†effect, meaning you don’t get any mechanical advantage having the shaft of the screw levered against the ice (Fig. 2).
How to Build Bomber Ice Anchors
It was once thought necessary or beneficial for ice-screws to be place horizontally or with the hanger up for optimum hold. However, it has since been found experimentally that a screw place with the tip angled up often holds as well or better. This surprising result is thought to be due to the previously underestimated role of the threads in holding the screw in place. However, horizontal placements are usually recommended.
Wikipedia
So you would want to angle them up into the ice.
answered 49 mins ago
Charlie Brumbaugh
41.7k14111239
Wow! That's something that's so counter-intuitive!
– Ricketyship
39 mins ago
Can we have some pictures? I'm confused with all the ups and downs :D
– OddDeer
25 mins ago
@Oddeer see the first source
– Charlie Brumbaugh
20 mins ago
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
All of the resources that I can find say that it should be done with the end pointing up and the hanger down with up to a twenty degree angle from vertical.
More surprising were Harmston's findings about screw angle. As it turns out, screws hold much better when they're angled in the direction of the falling force, as in the second scenario above. Perhaps needless to say, this is not intuitive. Much of the force is then resisted by the threads rather than the girth of the screw itself. This isn't a small difference either: an ice screw placed at a downward angle is as much as twice as strong as a screw placed at an upward "negative" angle.
Gear Physics: How Ice Screws Keep Ice Climbers from Falling to Their Deaths
Limited testing by Chris Harmston of Black Diamond and Craig Luebben about 10 years ago showed that ice screws with the hanger end angled down (negative angle) up to 20 degrees were stronger than screws with the hanger parallel to the ice or angled slightly up (positive angle). A negative angle does not, however, increase the strength of the threads; rather, it decreases the chance that the ice will blow out from under the screw.
Should I Angle Ice Screws Down?
Contrary to what you might think, the best angle for the screws is slightly upward, meaning the hanger is slightly lower than the teeth in the ice. This counterintuitive method is better because the holding power comes from the threads themselves and not from a “snow picket†effect, meaning you don’t get any mechanical advantage having the shaft of the screw levered against the ice (Fig. 2).
How to Build Bomber Ice Anchors
It was once thought necessary or beneficial for ice-screws to be place horizontally or with the hanger up for optimum hold. However, it has since been found experimentally that a screw place with the tip angled up often holds as well or better. This surprising result is thought to be due to the previously underestimated role of the threads in holding the screw in place. However, horizontal placements are usually recommended.
Wikipedia
So you would want to angle them up into the ice.
answered 49 mins ago
Charlie Brumbaugh
41.7k14111239
Wow! That's something that's so counter-intuitive!
– Ricketyship
39 mins ago
Can we have some pictures? I'm confused with all the ups and downs :D
– OddDeer
25 mins ago
@Oddeer see the first source
– Charlie Brumbaugh
20 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
All of the resources that I can find say that it should be done with the end pointing up and the hanger down with up to a twenty degree angle from vertical.
More surprising were Harmston's findings about screw angle. As it turns out, screws hold much better when they're angled in the direction of the falling force, as in the second scenario above. Perhaps needless to say, this is not intuitive. Much of the force is then resisted by the threads rather than the girth of the screw itself. This isn't a small difference either: an ice screw placed at a downward angle is as much as twice as strong as a screw placed at an upward "negative" angle.
Gear Physics: How Ice Screws Keep Ice Climbers from Falling to Their Deaths
Limited testing by Chris Harmston of Black Diamond and Craig Luebben about 10 years ago showed that ice screws with the hanger end angled down (negative angle) up to 20 degrees were stronger than screws with the hanger parallel to the ice or angled slightly up (positive angle). A negative angle does not, however, increase the strength of the threads; rather, it decreases the chance that the ice will blow out from under the screw.
Should I Angle Ice Screws Down?
Contrary to what you might think, the best angle for the screws is slightly upward, meaning the hanger is slightly lower than the teeth in the ice. This counterintuitive method is better because the holding power comes from the threads themselves and not from a “snow picket†effect, meaning you don’t get any mechanical advantage having the shaft of the screw levered against the ice (Fig. 2).
How to Build Bomber Ice Anchors
It was once thought necessary or beneficial for ice-screws to be place horizontally or with the hanger up for optimum hold. However, it has since been found experimentally that a screw place with the tip angled up often holds as well or better. This surprising result is thought to be due to the previously underestimated role of the threads in holding the screw in place. However, horizontal placements are usually recommended.
Wikipedia
So you would want to angle them up into the ice.
answered 49 mins ago
Charlie Brumbaugh
41.7k14111239
Wow! That's something that's so counter-intuitive!
– Ricketyship
39 mins ago
Can we have some pictures? I'm confused with all the ups and downs :D
– OddDeer
25 mins ago
@Oddeer see the first source
– Charlie Brumbaugh
20 mins ago
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
All of the resources that I can find say that it should be done with the end pointing up and the hanger down with up to a twenty degree angle from vertical.
More surprising were Harmston's findings about screw angle. As it turns out, screws hold much better when they're angled in the direction of the falling force, as in the second scenario above. Perhaps needless to say, this is not intuitive. Much of the force is then resisted by the threads rather than the girth of the screw itself. This isn't a small difference either: an ice screw placed at a downward angle is as much as twice as strong as a screw placed at an upward "negative" angle.
Gear Physics: How Ice Screws Keep Ice Climbers from Falling to Their Deaths
Limited testing by Chris Harmston of Black Diamond and Craig Luebben about 10 years ago showed that ice screws with the hanger end angled down (negative angle) up to 20 degrees were stronger than screws with the hanger parallel to the ice or angled slightly up (positive angle). A negative angle does not, however, increase the strength of the threads; rather, it decreases the chance that the ice will blow out from under the screw.
Should I Angle Ice Screws Down?
Contrary to what you might think, the best angle for the screws is slightly upward, meaning the hanger is slightly lower than the teeth in the ice. This counterintuitive method is better because the holding power comes from the threads themselves and not from a “snow picket†effect, meaning you don’t get any mechanical advantage having the shaft of the screw levered against the ice (Fig. 2).
How to Build Bomber Ice Anchors
It was once thought necessary or beneficial for ice-screws to be place horizontally or with the hanger up for optimum hold. However, it has since been found experimentally that a screw place with the tip angled up often holds as well or better. This surprising result is thought to be due to the previously underestimated role of the threads in holding the screw in place. However, horizontal placements are usually recommended.
Wikipedia
So you would want to angle them up into the ice.
answered 49 mins ago
Charlie Brumbaugh
41.7k14111239
All of the resources that I can find say that it should be done with the end pointing up and the hanger down with up to a twenty degree angle from vertical.
More surprising were Harmston's findings about screw angle. As it turns out, screws hold much better when they're angled in the direction of the falling force, as in the second scenario above. Perhaps needless to say, this is not intuitive. Much of the force is then resisted by the threads rather than the girth of the screw itself. This isn't a small difference either: an ice screw placed at a downward angle is as much as twice as strong as a screw placed at an upward "negative" angle.
Gear Physics: How Ice Screws Keep Ice Climbers from Falling to Their Deaths
Limited testing by Chris Harmston of Black Diamond and Craig Luebben about 10 years ago showed that ice screws with the hanger end angled down (negative angle) up to 20 degrees were stronger than screws with the hanger parallel to the ice or angled slightly up (positive angle). A negative angle does not, however, increase the strength of the threads; rather, it decreases the chance that the ice will blow out from under the screw.
Should I Angle Ice Screws Down?
Contrary to what you might think, the best angle for the screws is slightly upward, meaning the hanger is slightly lower than the teeth in the ice. This counterintuitive method is better because the holding power comes from the threads themselves and not from a “snow picket†effect, meaning you don’t get any mechanical advantage having the shaft of the screw levered against the ice (Fig. 2).
How to Build Bomber Ice Anchors
It was once thought necessary or beneficial for ice-screws to be place horizontally or with the hanger up for optimum hold. However, it has since been found experimentally that a screw place with the tip angled up often holds as well or better. This surprising result is thought to be due to the previously underestimated role of the threads in holding the screw in place. However, horizontal placements are usually recommended.
Wikipedia
So you would want to angle them up into the ice.
answered 49 mins ago
Charlie Brumbaugh
41.7k14111239
answered 49 mins ago
Charlie Brumbaugh
41.7k14111239
answered 49 mins ago
Charlie Brumbaugh
41.7k14111239
answered 49 mins ago
Charlie Brumbaugh
41.7k14111239
41.7k14111239
Wow! That's something that's so counter-intuitive!
– Ricketyship
39 mins ago
Can we have some pictures? I'm confused with all the ups and downs :D
– OddDeer
25 mins ago
@Oddeer see the first source
– Charlie Brumbaugh
20 mins ago
add a comment |Â
Wow! That's something that's so counter-intuitive!
– Ricketyship
39 mins ago
Can we have some pictures? I'm confused with all the ups and downs :D
– OddDeer
25 mins ago
@Oddeer see the first source
– Charlie Brumbaugh
20 mins ago
Wow! That's something that's so counter-intuitive!
– Ricketyship
39 mins ago
Wow! That's something that's so counter-intuitive!
– Ricketyship
39 mins ago
Can we have some pictures? I'm confused with all the ups and downs :D
– OddDeer
25 mins ago
Can we have some pictures? I'm confused with all the ups and downs :D
– OddDeer
25 mins ago
@Oddeer see the first source
– Charlie Brumbaugh
20 mins ago
@Oddeer see the first source
– Charlie Brumbaugh
20 mins ago
add a comment |Â
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