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How can I create a product that competes with my current job without causing trouble with my employer?
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I work for a company that makes a type of business software; the sort that is very useful to a niche of the industry. What the software does is really great, but how it does it, both above and below the hood, could use some serious work. Problems that could really use some serious attention because they force us to take 5 times as long to handle development, and what we do make runs slower because of it.
The application architect has a lot of strict policies in place. You must use this custom ORM that he wrote in 2000. No Foreign Keys allowed. A lot of things that really hamper development, and while the owner is sympathetic to changes myself and other programmers would like to institute, he doesn't want to make the architect feel threatened. He wants to make tiny, incremental changes.
I like this company. I like the kind of work I do. I like a lot of the people I work with. So much so that I would gladly put in a lot of extra time rewriting our software just as a proof of concept to show how much newer design techniques could help us save time and money. But even then I'd meet a lot of resistance. And at that point I'm wondering, if I really think that I could make something better, couldn't I just make and try to sell that software myself?
The business logic we use is all industry standard. I wouldn't be copying any screens or any code. If I wanted to quit and start up my own company that makes this same kind of software, what kind of repercussions do you think there would/could be? I would think it would be the same kind of issue you'd have if you worked in a custom bike shop and then decided to go start your own shop. How much of this would be viewed as me building from my experiences in this industry, and how much of it would be me "stealing ideas from my employer?"
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up vote
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I work for a company that makes a type of business software; the sort that is very useful to a niche of the industry. What the software does is really great, but how it does it, both above and below the hood, could use some serious work. Problems that could really use some serious attention because they force us to take 5 times as long to handle development, and what we do make runs slower because of it.
The application architect has a lot of strict policies in place. You must use this custom ORM that he wrote in 2000. No Foreign Keys allowed. A lot of things that really hamper development, and while the owner is sympathetic to changes myself and other programmers would like to institute, he doesn't want to make the architect feel threatened. He wants to make tiny, incremental changes.
I like this company. I like the kind of work I do. I like a lot of the people I work with. So much so that I would gladly put in a lot of extra time rewriting our software just as a proof of concept to show how much newer design techniques could help us save time and money. But even then I'd meet a lot of resistance. And at that point I'm wondering, if I really think that I could make something better, couldn't I just make and try to sell that software myself?
The business logic we use is all industry standard. I wouldn't be copying any screens or any code. If I wanted to quit and start up my own company that makes this same kind of software, what kind of repercussions do you think there would/could be? I would think it would be the same kind of issue you'd have if you worked in a custom bike shop and then decided to go start your own shop. How much of this would be viewed as me building from my experiences in this industry, and how much of it would be me "stealing ideas from my employer?"
inside-information
4
You could as well be staring at a long legal battle if you are not careful enough to change almost everything in such a way that, none of the original source code can be traced.. :)
– Roy M J
Feb 4 '14 at 5:10
1
@RoyMJ You don't have to tell me twice, seeing as how I'm really not that fond of our source as it stands..
– user14672
Feb 4 '14 at 5:13
3
Hey cost, and welcome to The Workplace! As explained in our help center, legal questions are explicitly off-topic here. If you want to do that, you would have to look at your employment contract, and consult a lawyer about how this works in your jurisdiction. We really aren't equipped to answer this as-is. If you want to focus on non-legal issues, that may be okay, such as, "How can I create a product that competes with my current job without burning bridges with my employer?" that may be an okay question. You can always edit your question if you agree. Thanks in advance!
– jmac
Feb 4 '14 at 5:19
3
You won't be able to keep your job for long if anyone ever finds out, even before you make any money from it.
– Xavier J
Feb 4 '14 at 6:19
1
Let's hope your manager don't see this question... Or that network admins are more your friends then his.
– Fabinout
Feb 4 '14 at 11:10
 |Â
show 5 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
I work for a company that makes a type of business software; the sort that is very useful to a niche of the industry. What the software does is really great, but how it does it, both above and below the hood, could use some serious work. Problems that could really use some serious attention because they force us to take 5 times as long to handle development, and what we do make runs slower because of it.
The application architect has a lot of strict policies in place. You must use this custom ORM that he wrote in 2000. No Foreign Keys allowed. A lot of things that really hamper development, and while the owner is sympathetic to changes myself and other programmers would like to institute, he doesn't want to make the architect feel threatened. He wants to make tiny, incremental changes.
I like this company. I like the kind of work I do. I like a lot of the people I work with. So much so that I would gladly put in a lot of extra time rewriting our software just as a proof of concept to show how much newer design techniques could help us save time and money. But even then I'd meet a lot of resistance. And at that point I'm wondering, if I really think that I could make something better, couldn't I just make and try to sell that software myself?
The business logic we use is all industry standard. I wouldn't be copying any screens or any code. If I wanted to quit and start up my own company that makes this same kind of software, what kind of repercussions do you think there would/could be? I would think it would be the same kind of issue you'd have if you worked in a custom bike shop and then decided to go start your own shop. How much of this would be viewed as me building from my experiences in this industry, and how much of it would be me "stealing ideas from my employer?"
inside-information
I work for a company that makes a type of business software; the sort that is very useful to a niche of the industry. What the software does is really great, but how it does it, both above and below the hood, could use some serious work. Problems that could really use some serious attention because they force us to take 5 times as long to handle development, and what we do make runs slower because of it.
The application architect has a lot of strict policies in place. You must use this custom ORM that he wrote in 2000. No Foreign Keys allowed. A lot of things that really hamper development, and while the owner is sympathetic to changes myself and other programmers would like to institute, he doesn't want to make the architect feel threatened. He wants to make tiny, incremental changes.
I like this company. I like the kind of work I do. I like a lot of the people I work with. So much so that I would gladly put in a lot of extra time rewriting our software just as a proof of concept to show how much newer design techniques could help us save time and money. But even then I'd meet a lot of resistance. And at that point I'm wondering, if I really think that I could make something better, couldn't I just make and try to sell that software myself?
The business logic we use is all industry standard. I wouldn't be copying any screens or any code. If I wanted to quit and start up my own company that makes this same kind of software, what kind of repercussions do you think there would/could be? I would think it would be the same kind of issue you'd have if you worked in a custom bike shop and then decided to go start your own shop. How much of this would be viewed as me building from my experiences in this industry, and how much of it would be me "stealing ideas from my employer?"
inside-information
edited Feb 4 '14 at 5:47
asked Feb 4 '14 at 5:06
user14672
4
You could as well be staring at a long legal battle if you are not careful enough to change almost everything in such a way that, none of the original source code can be traced.. :)
– Roy M J
Feb 4 '14 at 5:10
1
@RoyMJ You don't have to tell me twice, seeing as how I'm really not that fond of our source as it stands..
– user14672
Feb 4 '14 at 5:13
3
Hey cost, and welcome to The Workplace! As explained in our help center, legal questions are explicitly off-topic here. If you want to do that, you would have to look at your employment contract, and consult a lawyer about how this works in your jurisdiction. We really aren't equipped to answer this as-is. If you want to focus on non-legal issues, that may be okay, such as, "How can I create a product that competes with my current job without burning bridges with my employer?" that may be an okay question. You can always edit your question if you agree. Thanks in advance!
– jmac
Feb 4 '14 at 5:19
3
You won't be able to keep your job for long if anyone ever finds out, even before you make any money from it.
– Xavier J
Feb 4 '14 at 6:19
1
Let's hope your manager don't see this question... Or that network admins are more your friends then his.
– Fabinout
Feb 4 '14 at 11:10
 |Â
show 5 more comments
4
You could as well be staring at a long legal battle if you are not careful enough to change almost everything in such a way that, none of the original source code can be traced.. :)
– Roy M J
Feb 4 '14 at 5:10
1
@RoyMJ You don't have to tell me twice, seeing as how I'm really not that fond of our source as it stands..
– user14672
Feb 4 '14 at 5:13
3
Hey cost, and welcome to The Workplace! As explained in our help center, legal questions are explicitly off-topic here. If you want to do that, you would have to look at your employment contract, and consult a lawyer about how this works in your jurisdiction. We really aren't equipped to answer this as-is. If you want to focus on non-legal issues, that may be okay, such as, "How can I create a product that competes with my current job without burning bridges with my employer?" that may be an okay question. You can always edit your question if you agree. Thanks in advance!
– jmac
Feb 4 '14 at 5:19
3
You won't be able to keep your job for long if anyone ever finds out, even before you make any money from it.
– Xavier J
Feb 4 '14 at 6:19
1
Let's hope your manager don't see this question... Or that network admins are more your friends then his.
– Fabinout
Feb 4 '14 at 11:10
4
4
You could as well be staring at a long legal battle if you are not careful enough to change almost everything in such a way that, none of the original source code can be traced.. :)
– Roy M J
Feb 4 '14 at 5:10
You could as well be staring at a long legal battle if you are not careful enough to change almost everything in such a way that, none of the original source code can be traced.. :)
– Roy M J
Feb 4 '14 at 5:10
1
1
@RoyMJ You don't have to tell me twice, seeing as how I'm really not that fond of our source as it stands..
– user14672
Feb 4 '14 at 5:13
@RoyMJ You don't have to tell me twice, seeing as how I'm really not that fond of our source as it stands..
– user14672
Feb 4 '14 at 5:13
3
3
Hey cost, and welcome to The Workplace! As explained in our help center, legal questions are explicitly off-topic here. If you want to do that, you would have to look at your employment contract, and consult a lawyer about how this works in your jurisdiction. We really aren't equipped to answer this as-is. If you want to focus on non-legal issues, that may be okay, such as, "How can I create a product that competes with my current job without burning bridges with my employer?" that may be an okay question. You can always edit your question if you agree. Thanks in advance!
– jmac
Feb 4 '14 at 5:19
Hey cost, and welcome to The Workplace! As explained in our help center, legal questions are explicitly off-topic here. If you want to do that, you would have to look at your employment contract, and consult a lawyer about how this works in your jurisdiction. We really aren't equipped to answer this as-is. If you want to focus on non-legal issues, that may be okay, such as, "How can I create a product that competes with my current job without burning bridges with my employer?" that may be an okay question. You can always edit your question if you agree. Thanks in advance!
– jmac
Feb 4 '14 at 5:19
3
3
You won't be able to keep your job for long if anyone ever finds out, even before you make any money from it.
– Xavier J
Feb 4 '14 at 6:19
You won't be able to keep your job for long if anyone ever finds out, even before you make any money from it.
– Xavier J
Feb 4 '14 at 6:19
1
1
Let's hope your manager don't see this question... Or that network admins are more your friends then his.
– Fabinout
Feb 4 '14 at 11:10
Let's hope your manager don't see this question... Or that network admins are more your friends then his.
– Fabinout
Feb 4 '14 at 11:10
 |Â
show 5 more comments
6 Answers
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OK - first there's the "get a lawyer answer" - if you've signed a non-compete or waived intellectual property rights in any way, now is a good time to get a lawyer if you're serious about this. We can't judge here what level of vindictiveness your company and/or your boss may pursue, and we can't help in figuring out what your employment paperwork limits.
That said, the big question is - how much internal knowledge (not code) are you taking with you when you start this venture? While you were working in this company, they paid you to learn two very important things:
The problem domain - what this niche industry does and how customers need the software to work. Both the use cases provided by the product AND the use cases that it's not doing or not doing well.
The solution domain - you've seen the inner workings of at least one solution (the product you'd like to recreate) - which means you have insight into what mistakes you could avoid by developing a new solution. You're new company will avoid the investment that you're current company made in developing a sub-optimal product.
Knowledge about current customers and sales strategies - even if you work in engineering, you may well know who your current customers are, and have some idea of how the company makes a sale and gets money for their investment.
You were paid some amount of money for time spent learning these things on the premise that you were using them to support your company. They were paying you to learn this stuff for the sole purpose of fixing and enhancing their product. Obviously they aren't in the business of spawning competition.
The fact that you now intend to take this knowledge and use it to create something that takes money (future sales) away from your current company to put it into your pocket is quite likely to cause problems. The scope of the problems are generally connected to the personalities involved and the overall business conditions - for example if you segment off a niche of the niche industry that your company couldn't be successful with anyway, then you're likely to encounter less resistance. Of if you hammer out a deal with them that allows them a legitimate revenue stream from your work so that you are a reseller for some part of the product.
The end question is a self-motivated one - what's in it for them in terms of playing nice with you as a competitor? If the answer is nothing... trouble is more likely.
answered Feb 4 '14 at 16:37
bethlakshmi
70.3k4136277
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up vote
1
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Ethically, I think you're safe, if:
You're careful not to duplicate the exact layout or interface of the original software. It sounds as if you already have some ideas for improvements here.
Your technical design/architecture is significantly different. A completely different database schema, for example, would show that you've applied a different thought process to your app.
You don't have a non-compete agreement, an agreement that gives your company ownership of any code or ideas that you produce while you work there, or something similar.
You don't develop the new app on your employer's time.- Finally, it goes without saying that you should not use any artifacts from the original program, such as source code, images, and the like.
Legally, this is a much more difficult question to answer, and depends on your employment agreement and jurisdiction. In any case, you would be on more solid ground if you left your current job before working on your replacement product.
answered Feb 4 '14 at 12:58
Roger
7,17132644
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Working for a company which also makes a niche thing for a very niche market, I feel I can offer you some sympathy on this matter. The company I work for has a lot of out dated techniques like yourself, which I know could be improved and upgraded.
However.
The big however is the boss.
Obviously he has overall say in the products, even if he did not invent them, he now owns the company which makes them. I don't know about you but a lot of our stuff is copyrighted. Which brings me to a few points to think on which I hope help you out:
what do you stand to lose?
Think on it, you say you enjoy working for your company, what do you really stand to lose if you went solo and started a company? I know from personal experience that starting a company is hard, especially if you have mouths to feed back home. You are giving up a constant income and don't know what you will earn each month.Copyright or software patents.
Are any of the products you could compete with copyrighted or covered by a patent? You don't want to start a company then boom be sued for it.Burning your bridges
Obviously life is not a video game and there are no save points, however think on it this way. I live in the UK, I am below 25. Yes I have a degree in computing, but within the UK your potential employers will ask for references. Picture this situation:- You leave your company
- You start making the competing product
- Your business idea fails to compete / you are sued
- You go for another job
- You have lost a potential employer giving you a reference.
Perhaps you don't have to mention your last employer, but it is possible that word would go around that you left the company to start a rival one. Imagine how bad that would look, especially if you were sued. When I started working for my company, my boss found things about me that I did not have on my CV or a simple Google search would not show up. People in this day and age can do their research.
Personally, I would say, "No. Stick it out and stay in the company, try and influence it and suggest things to your line manager/boss and see if you can guide it. Better to become influential in your company than to start your own and in six months be looking for another job."
edited Feb 4 '14 at 16:01
Kate Gregory
105k40232334
answered Feb 4 '14 at 10:43
Marriott81
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You are very likely under a covenant of non-competition (refer to your contract). This is designed to protect employers from just what you propose. However, it is not designed to prevent you from competing EVER, just in the present, while they still have an advantage.
Usually, you will have to wait 1-2 years. It should be a number laid out clearly in your contract. And you should wait until the non-competition agreement expires, or you can be sued for a significant amount of coin.
answered Feb 5 '14 at 16:12
Code Whisperer
1,822618
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Proceed very carefully. This is the kind of case that is ripe for lawsuits and claims of intellectual theft.
Don't try and be smart and take copies of existing work etc. either, to try and show how yours is different. Also you will need to fully sever ties with the company before you write one line of code.
We had a similar situation where I work and the employee had written and entire app before leaving. We forced him to turn everything over to us, since it was all written while an employee of our company.
answered Feb 5 '14 at 23:06
Bill Leeper
10.8k2735
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The only way would be to leave and start you own company but you would have to watch out for IP a trade secret issues.
And to be blunt you do owe you employer the courtesy of acting in good faith - i think you need to have a think abotu your ethics as they relate to work
answered Feb 5 '14 at 16:29
Neuromancer
45938
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6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
OK - first there's the "get a lawyer answer" - if you've signed a non-compete or waived intellectual property rights in any way, now is a good time to get a lawyer if you're serious about this. We can't judge here what level of vindictiveness your company and/or your boss may pursue, and we can't help in figuring out what your employment paperwork limits.
That said, the big question is - how much internal knowledge (not code) are you taking with you when you start this venture? While you were working in this company, they paid you to learn two very important things:
The problem domain - what this niche industry does and how customers need the software to work. Both the use cases provided by the product AND the use cases that it's not doing or not doing well.
The solution domain - you've seen the inner workings of at least one solution (the product you'd like to recreate) - which means you have insight into what mistakes you could avoid by developing a new solution. You're new company will avoid the investment that you're current company made in developing a sub-optimal product.
Knowledge about current customers and sales strategies - even if you work in engineering, you may well know who your current customers are, and have some idea of how the company makes a sale and gets money for their investment.
You were paid some amount of money for time spent learning these things on the premise that you were using them to support your company. They were paying you to learn this stuff for the sole purpose of fixing and enhancing their product. Obviously they aren't in the business of spawning competition.
The fact that you now intend to take this knowledge and use it to create something that takes money (future sales) away from your current company to put it into your pocket is quite likely to cause problems. The scope of the problems are generally connected to the personalities involved and the overall business conditions - for example if you segment off a niche of the niche industry that your company couldn't be successful with anyway, then you're likely to encounter less resistance. Of if you hammer out a deal with them that allows them a legitimate revenue stream from your work so that you are a reseller for some part of the product.
The end question is a self-motivated one - what's in it for them in terms of playing nice with you as a competitor? If the answer is nothing... trouble is more likely.
answered Feb 4 '14 at 16:37
bethlakshmi
70.3k4136277
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
OK - first there's the "get a lawyer answer" - if you've signed a non-compete or waived intellectual property rights in any way, now is a good time to get a lawyer if you're serious about this. We can't judge here what level of vindictiveness your company and/or your boss may pursue, and we can't help in figuring out what your employment paperwork limits.
That said, the big question is - how much internal knowledge (not code) are you taking with you when you start this venture? While you were working in this company, they paid you to learn two very important things:
The problem domain - what this niche industry does and how customers need the software to work. Both the use cases provided by the product AND the use cases that it's not doing or not doing well.
The solution domain - you've seen the inner workings of at least one solution (the product you'd like to recreate) - which means you have insight into what mistakes you could avoid by developing a new solution. You're new company will avoid the investment that you're current company made in developing a sub-optimal product.
Knowledge about current customers and sales strategies - even if you work in engineering, you may well know who your current customers are, and have some idea of how the company makes a sale and gets money for their investment.
You were paid some amount of money for time spent learning these things on the premise that you were using them to support your company. They were paying you to learn this stuff for the sole purpose of fixing and enhancing their product. Obviously they aren't in the business of spawning competition.
The fact that you now intend to take this knowledge and use it to create something that takes money (future sales) away from your current company to put it into your pocket is quite likely to cause problems. The scope of the problems are generally connected to the personalities involved and the overall business conditions - for example if you segment off a niche of the niche industry that your company couldn't be successful with anyway, then you're likely to encounter less resistance. Of if you hammer out a deal with them that allows them a legitimate revenue stream from your work so that you are a reseller for some part of the product.
The end question is a self-motivated one - what's in it for them in terms of playing nice with you as a competitor? If the answer is nothing... trouble is more likely.
answered Feb 4 '14 at 16:37
bethlakshmi
70.3k4136277
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
OK - first there's the "get a lawyer answer" - if you've signed a non-compete or waived intellectual property rights in any way, now is a good time to get a lawyer if you're serious about this. We can't judge here what level of vindictiveness your company and/or your boss may pursue, and we can't help in figuring out what your employment paperwork limits.
That said, the big question is - how much internal knowledge (not code) are you taking with you when you start this venture? While you were working in this company, they paid you to learn two very important things:
The problem domain - what this niche industry does and how customers need the software to work. Both the use cases provided by the product AND the use cases that it's not doing or not doing well.
The solution domain - you've seen the inner workings of at least one solution (the product you'd like to recreate) - which means you have insight into what mistakes you could avoid by developing a new solution. You're new company will avoid the investment that you're current company made in developing a sub-optimal product.
Knowledge about current customers and sales strategies - even if you work in engineering, you may well know who your current customers are, and have some idea of how the company makes a sale and gets money for their investment.
You were paid some amount of money for time spent learning these things on the premise that you were using them to support your company. They were paying you to learn this stuff for the sole purpose of fixing and enhancing their product. Obviously they aren't in the business of spawning competition.
The fact that you now intend to take this knowledge and use it to create something that takes money (future sales) away from your current company to put it into your pocket is quite likely to cause problems. The scope of the problems are generally connected to the personalities involved and the overall business conditions - for example if you segment off a niche of the niche industry that your company couldn't be successful with anyway, then you're likely to encounter less resistance. Of if you hammer out a deal with them that allows them a legitimate revenue stream from your work so that you are a reseller for some part of the product.
The end question is a self-motivated one - what's in it for them in terms of playing nice with you as a competitor? If the answer is nothing... trouble is more likely.
answered Feb 4 '14 at 16:37
bethlakshmi
70.3k4136277
OK - first there's the "get a lawyer answer" - if you've signed a non-compete or waived intellectual property rights in any way, now is a good time to get a lawyer if you're serious about this. We can't judge here what level of vindictiveness your company and/or your boss may pursue, and we can't help in figuring out what your employment paperwork limits.
That said, the big question is - how much internal knowledge (not code) are you taking with you when you start this venture? While you were working in this company, they paid you to learn two very important things:
The problem domain - what this niche industry does and how customers need the software to work. Both the use cases provided by the product AND the use cases that it's not doing or not doing well.
The solution domain - you've seen the inner workings of at least one solution (the product you'd like to recreate) - which means you have insight into what mistakes you could avoid by developing a new solution. You're new company will avoid the investment that you're current company made in developing a sub-optimal product.
Knowledge about current customers and sales strategies - even if you work in engineering, you may well know who your current customers are, and have some idea of how the company makes a sale and gets money for their investment.
You were paid some amount of money for time spent learning these things on the premise that you were using them to support your company. They were paying you to learn this stuff for the sole purpose of fixing and enhancing their product. Obviously they aren't in the business of spawning competition.
The fact that you now intend to take this knowledge and use it to create something that takes money (future sales) away from your current company to put it into your pocket is quite likely to cause problems. The scope of the problems are generally connected to the personalities involved and the overall business conditions - for example if you segment off a niche of the niche industry that your company couldn't be successful with anyway, then you're likely to encounter less resistance. Of if you hammer out a deal with them that allows them a legitimate revenue stream from your work so that you are a reseller for some part of the product.
The end question is a self-motivated one - what's in it for them in terms of playing nice with you as a competitor? If the answer is nothing... trouble is more likely.
answered Feb 4 '14 at 16:37
bethlakshmi
70.3k4136277
answered Feb 4 '14 at 16:37
bethlakshmi
70.3k4136277
answered Feb 4 '14 at 16:37
bethlakshmi
70.3k4136277
answered Feb 4 '14 at 16:37
bethlakshmi
70.3k4136277
70.3k4136277
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Ethically, I think you're safe, if:
You're careful not to duplicate the exact layout or interface of the original software. It sounds as if you already have some ideas for improvements here.
Your technical design/architecture is significantly different. A completely different database schema, for example, would show that you've applied a different thought process to your app.
You don't have a non-compete agreement, an agreement that gives your company ownership of any code or ideas that you produce while you work there, or something similar.
You don't develop the new app on your employer's time.- Finally, it goes without saying that you should not use any artifacts from the original program, such as source code, images, and the like.
Legally, this is a much more difficult question to answer, and depends on your employment agreement and jurisdiction. In any case, you would be on more solid ground if you left your current job before working on your replacement product.
answered Feb 4 '14 at 12:58
Roger
7,17132644
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Ethically, I think you're safe, if:
You're careful not to duplicate the exact layout or interface of the original software. It sounds as if you already have some ideas for improvements here.
Your technical design/architecture is significantly different. A completely different database schema, for example, would show that you've applied a different thought process to your app.
You don't have a non-compete agreement, an agreement that gives your company ownership of any code or ideas that you produce while you work there, or something similar.
You don't develop the new app on your employer's time.- Finally, it goes without saying that you should not use any artifacts from the original program, such as source code, images, and the like.
Legally, this is a much more difficult question to answer, and depends on your employment agreement and jurisdiction. In any case, you would be on more solid ground if you left your current job before working on your replacement product.
answered Feb 4 '14 at 12:58
Roger
7,17132644
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Ethically, I think you're safe, if:
You're careful not to duplicate the exact layout or interface of the original software. It sounds as if you already have some ideas for improvements here.
Your technical design/architecture is significantly different. A completely different database schema, for example, would show that you've applied a different thought process to your app.
You don't have a non-compete agreement, an agreement that gives your company ownership of any code or ideas that you produce while you work there, or something similar.
You don't develop the new app on your employer's time.- Finally, it goes without saying that you should not use any artifacts from the original program, such as source code, images, and the like.
Legally, this is a much more difficult question to answer, and depends on your employment agreement and jurisdiction. In any case, you would be on more solid ground if you left your current job before working on your replacement product.
answered Feb 4 '14 at 12:58
Roger
7,17132644
Ethically, I think you're safe, if:
You're careful not to duplicate the exact layout or interface of the original software. It sounds as if you already have some ideas for improvements here.
Your technical design/architecture is significantly different. A completely different database schema, for example, would show that you've applied a different thought process to your app.
You don't have a non-compete agreement, an agreement that gives your company ownership of any code or ideas that you produce while you work there, or something similar.
You don't develop the new app on your employer's time.- Finally, it goes without saying that you should not use any artifacts from the original program, such as source code, images, and the like.
Legally, this is a much more difficult question to answer, and depends on your employment agreement and jurisdiction. In any case, you would be on more solid ground if you left your current job before working on your replacement product.
answered Feb 4 '14 at 12:58
Roger
7,17132644
answered Feb 4 '14 at 12:58
Roger
7,17132644
answered Feb 4 '14 at 12:58
Roger
7,17132644
answered Feb 4 '14 at 12:58
Roger
7,17132644
7,17132644
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Working for a company which also makes a niche thing for a very niche market, I feel I can offer you some sympathy on this matter. The company I work for has a lot of out dated techniques like yourself, which I know could be improved and upgraded.
However.
The big however is the boss.
Obviously he has overall say in the products, even if he did not invent them, he now owns the company which makes them. I don't know about you but a lot of our stuff is copyrighted. Which brings me to a few points to think on which I hope help you out:
what do you stand to lose?
Think on it, you say you enjoy working for your company, what do you really stand to lose if you went solo and started a company? I know from personal experience that starting a company is hard, especially if you have mouths to feed back home. You are giving up a constant income and don't know what you will earn each month.Copyright or software patents.
Are any of the products you could compete with copyrighted or covered by a patent? You don't want to start a company then boom be sued for it.Burning your bridges
Obviously life is not a video game and there are no save points, however think on it this way. I live in the UK, I am below 25. Yes I have a degree in computing, but within the UK your potential employers will ask for references. Picture this situation:- You leave your company
- You start making the competing product
- Your business idea fails to compete / you are sued
- You go for another job
- You have lost a potential employer giving you a reference.
Perhaps you don't have to mention your last employer, but it is possible that word would go around that you left the company to start a rival one. Imagine how bad that would look, especially if you were sued. When I started working for my company, my boss found things about me that I did not have on my CV or a simple Google search would not show up. People in this day and age can do their research.
Personally, I would say, "No. Stick it out and stay in the company, try and influence it and suggest things to your line manager/boss and see if you can guide it. Better to become influential in your company than to start your own and in six months be looking for another job."
edited Feb 4 '14 at 16:01
Kate Gregory
105k40232334
answered Feb 4 '14 at 10:43
Marriott81
1,360817
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Working for a company which also makes a niche thing for a very niche market, I feel I can offer you some sympathy on this matter. The company I work for has a lot of out dated techniques like yourself, which I know could be improved and upgraded.
However.
The big however is the boss.
Obviously he has overall say in the products, even if he did not invent them, he now owns the company which makes them. I don't know about you but a lot of our stuff is copyrighted. Which brings me to a few points to think on which I hope help you out:
what do you stand to lose?
Think on it, you say you enjoy working for your company, what do you really stand to lose if you went solo and started a company? I know from personal experience that starting a company is hard, especially if you have mouths to feed back home. You are giving up a constant income and don't know what you will earn each month.Copyright or software patents.
Are any of the products you could compete with copyrighted or covered by a patent? You don't want to start a company then boom be sued for it.Burning your bridges
Obviously life is not a video game and there are no save points, however think on it this way. I live in the UK, I am below 25. Yes I have a degree in computing, but within the UK your potential employers will ask for references. Picture this situation:- You leave your company
- You start making the competing product
- Your business idea fails to compete / you are sued
- You go for another job
- You have lost a potential employer giving you a reference.
Perhaps you don't have to mention your last employer, but it is possible that word would go around that you left the company to start a rival one. Imagine how bad that would look, especially if you were sued. When I started working for my company, my boss found things about me that I did not have on my CV or a simple Google search would not show up. People in this day and age can do their research.
Personally, I would say, "No. Stick it out and stay in the company, try and influence it and suggest things to your line manager/boss and see if you can guide it. Better to become influential in your company than to start your own and in six months be looking for another job."
edited Feb 4 '14 at 16:01
Kate Gregory
105k40232334
answered Feb 4 '14 at 10:43
Marriott81
1,360817
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Working for a company which also makes a niche thing for a very niche market, I feel I can offer you some sympathy on this matter. The company I work for has a lot of out dated techniques like yourself, which I know could be improved and upgraded.
However.
The big however is the boss.
Obviously he has overall say in the products, even if he did not invent them, he now owns the company which makes them. I don't know about you but a lot of our stuff is copyrighted. Which brings me to a few points to think on which I hope help you out:
what do you stand to lose?
Think on it, you say you enjoy working for your company, what do you really stand to lose if you went solo and started a company? I know from personal experience that starting a company is hard, especially if you have mouths to feed back home. You are giving up a constant income and don't know what you will earn each month.Copyright or software patents.
Are any of the products you could compete with copyrighted or covered by a patent? You don't want to start a company then boom be sued for it.Burning your bridges
Obviously life is not a video game and there are no save points, however think on it this way. I live in the UK, I am below 25. Yes I have a degree in computing, but within the UK your potential employers will ask for references. Picture this situation:- You leave your company
- You start making the competing product
- Your business idea fails to compete / you are sued
- You go for another job
- You have lost a potential employer giving you a reference.
Perhaps you don't have to mention your last employer, but it is possible that word would go around that you left the company to start a rival one. Imagine how bad that would look, especially if you were sued. When I started working for my company, my boss found things about me that I did not have on my CV or a simple Google search would not show up. People in this day and age can do their research.
Personally, I would say, "No. Stick it out and stay in the company, try and influence it and suggest things to your line manager/boss and see if you can guide it. Better to become influential in your company than to start your own and in six months be looking for another job."
edited Feb 4 '14 at 16:01
Kate Gregory
105k40232334
answered Feb 4 '14 at 10:43
Marriott81
1,360817
Working for a company which also makes a niche thing for a very niche market, I feel I can offer you some sympathy on this matter. The company I work for has a lot of out dated techniques like yourself, which I know could be improved and upgraded.
However.
The big however is the boss.
Obviously he has overall say in the products, even if he did not invent them, he now owns the company which makes them. I don't know about you but a lot of our stuff is copyrighted. Which brings me to a few points to think on which I hope help you out:
what do you stand to lose?
Think on it, you say you enjoy working for your company, what do you really stand to lose if you went solo and started a company? I know from personal experience that starting a company is hard, especially if you have mouths to feed back home. You are giving up a constant income and don't know what you will earn each month.Copyright or software patents.
Are any of the products you could compete with copyrighted or covered by a patent? You don't want to start a company then boom be sued for it.Burning your bridges
Obviously life is not a video game and there are no save points, however think on it this way. I live in the UK, I am below 25. Yes I have a degree in computing, but within the UK your potential employers will ask for references. Picture this situation:- You leave your company
- You start making the competing product
- Your business idea fails to compete / you are sued
- You go for another job
- You have lost a potential employer giving you a reference.
Perhaps you don't have to mention your last employer, but it is possible that word would go around that you left the company to start a rival one. Imagine how bad that would look, especially if you were sued. When I started working for my company, my boss found things about me that I did not have on my CV or a simple Google search would not show up. People in this day and age can do their research.
Personally, I would say, "No. Stick it out and stay in the company, try and influence it and suggest things to your line manager/boss and see if you can guide it. Better to become influential in your company than to start your own and in six months be looking for another job."
edited Feb 4 '14 at 16:01
Kate Gregory
105k40232334
answered Feb 4 '14 at 10:43
Marriott81
1,360817
edited Feb 4 '14 at 16:01
Kate Gregory
105k40232334
edited Feb 4 '14 at 16:01
Kate Gregory
105k40232334
edited Feb 4 '14 at 16:01
Kate Gregory
105k40232334
105k40232334
answered Feb 4 '14 at 10:43
Marriott81
1,360817
answered Feb 4 '14 at 10:43
Marriott81
1,360817
answered Feb 4 '14 at 10:43
Marriott81
1,360817
1,360817
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
You are very likely under a covenant of non-competition (refer to your contract). This is designed to protect employers from just what you propose. However, it is not designed to prevent you from competing EVER, just in the present, while they still have an advantage.
Usually, you will have to wait 1-2 years. It should be a number laid out clearly in your contract. And you should wait until the non-competition agreement expires, or you can be sued for a significant amount of coin.
answered Feb 5 '14 at 16:12
Code Whisperer
1,822618
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
You are very likely under a covenant of non-competition (refer to your contract). This is designed to protect employers from just what you propose. However, it is not designed to prevent you from competing EVER, just in the present, while they still have an advantage.
Usually, you will have to wait 1-2 years. It should be a number laid out clearly in your contract. And you should wait until the non-competition agreement expires, or you can be sued for a significant amount of coin.
answered Feb 5 '14 at 16:12
Code Whisperer
1,822618
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
You are very likely under a covenant of non-competition (refer to your contract). This is designed to protect employers from just what you propose. However, it is not designed to prevent you from competing EVER, just in the present, while they still have an advantage.
Usually, you will have to wait 1-2 years. It should be a number laid out clearly in your contract. And you should wait until the non-competition agreement expires, or you can be sued for a significant amount of coin.
answered Feb 5 '14 at 16:12
Code Whisperer
1,822618
You are very likely under a covenant of non-competition (refer to your contract). This is designed to protect employers from just what you propose. However, it is not designed to prevent you from competing EVER, just in the present, while they still have an advantage.
Usually, you will have to wait 1-2 years. It should be a number laid out clearly in your contract. And you should wait until the non-competition agreement expires, or you can be sued for a significant amount of coin.
answered Feb 5 '14 at 16:12
Code Whisperer
1,822618
answered Feb 5 '14 at 16:12
Code Whisperer
1,822618
answered Feb 5 '14 at 16:12
Code Whisperer
1,822618
answered Feb 5 '14 at 16:12
Code Whisperer
1,822618
1,822618
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Proceed very carefully. This is the kind of case that is ripe for lawsuits and claims of intellectual theft.
Don't try and be smart and take copies of existing work etc. either, to try and show how yours is different. Also you will need to fully sever ties with the company before you write one line of code.
We had a similar situation where I work and the employee had written and entire app before leaving. We forced him to turn everything over to us, since it was all written while an employee of our company.
answered Feb 5 '14 at 23:06
Bill Leeper
10.8k2735
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Proceed very carefully. This is the kind of case that is ripe for lawsuits and claims of intellectual theft.
Don't try and be smart and take copies of existing work etc. either, to try and show how yours is different. Also you will need to fully sever ties with the company before you write one line of code.
We had a similar situation where I work and the employee had written and entire app before leaving. We forced him to turn everything over to us, since it was all written while an employee of our company.
answered Feb 5 '14 at 23:06
Bill Leeper
10.8k2735
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Proceed very carefully. This is the kind of case that is ripe for lawsuits and claims of intellectual theft.
Don't try and be smart and take copies of existing work etc. either, to try and show how yours is different. Also you will need to fully sever ties with the company before you write one line of code.
We had a similar situation where I work and the employee had written and entire app before leaving. We forced him to turn everything over to us, since it was all written while an employee of our company.
answered Feb 5 '14 at 23:06
Bill Leeper
10.8k2735
Proceed very carefully. This is the kind of case that is ripe for lawsuits and claims of intellectual theft.
Don't try and be smart and take copies of existing work etc. either, to try and show how yours is different. Also you will need to fully sever ties with the company before you write one line of code.
We had a similar situation where I work and the employee had written and entire app before leaving. We forced him to turn everything over to us, since it was all written while an employee of our company.
answered Feb 5 '14 at 23:06
Bill Leeper
10.8k2735
answered Feb 5 '14 at 23:06
Bill Leeper
10.8k2735
answered Feb 5 '14 at 23:06
Bill Leeper
10.8k2735
answered Feb 5 '14 at 23:06
Bill Leeper
10.8k2735
10.8k2735
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
The only way would be to leave and start you own company but you would have to watch out for IP a trade secret issues.
And to be blunt you do owe you employer the courtesy of acting in good faith - i think you need to have a think abotu your ethics as they relate to work
answered Feb 5 '14 at 16:29
Neuromancer
45938
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
The only way would be to leave and start you own company but you would have to watch out for IP a trade secret issues.
And to be blunt you do owe you employer the courtesy of acting in good faith - i think you need to have a think abotu your ethics as they relate to work
answered Feb 5 '14 at 16:29
Neuromancer
45938
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
The only way would be to leave and start you own company but you would have to watch out for IP a trade secret issues.
And to be blunt you do owe you employer the courtesy of acting in good faith - i think you need to have a think abotu your ethics as they relate to work
answered Feb 5 '14 at 16:29
Neuromancer
45938
The only way would be to leave and start you own company but you would have to watch out for IP a trade secret issues.
And to be blunt you do owe you employer the courtesy of acting in good faith - i think you need to have a think abotu your ethics as they relate to work
answered Feb 5 '14 at 16:29
Neuromancer
45938
answered Feb 5 '14 at 16:29
Neuromancer
45938
answered Feb 5 '14 at 16:29
Neuromancer
45938
answered Feb 5 '14 at 16:29
Neuromancer
45938
45938
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
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4
You could as well be staring at a long legal battle if you are not careful enough to change almost everything in such a way that, none of the original source code can be traced.. :)
– Roy M J
Feb 4 '14 at 5:10
1
@RoyMJ You don't have to tell me twice, seeing as how I'm really not that fond of our source as it stands..
– user14672
Feb 4 '14 at 5:13
3
Hey cost, and welcome to The Workplace! As explained in our help center, legal questions are explicitly off-topic here. If you want to do that, you would have to look at your employment contract, and consult a lawyer about how this works in your jurisdiction. We really aren't equipped to answer this as-is. If you want to focus on non-legal issues, that may be okay, such as, "How can I create a product that competes with my current job without burning bridges with my employer?" that may be an okay question. You can always edit your question if you agree. Thanks in advance!
– jmac
Feb 4 '14 at 5:19
3
You won't be able to keep your job for long if anyone ever finds out, even before you make any money from it.
– Xavier J
Feb 4 '14 at 6:19
1
Let's hope your manager don't see this question... Or that network admins are more your friends then his.
– Fabinout
Feb 4 '14 at 11:10