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How does a specialist change focus in their field, professionally?
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I'm using programming as an example since this is the situation I'm in:
Ok so I have a couple of years experience under my belt at this point working with C#/.Net and in that time have covered most of the .Net stack (Console Applications, Windows Services, Winforms, Webforms, WCF, WPF, MVC).
.Net is awesome, and I am at the point where I can apply for decent .Net jobs, and stand a good chance.
What if, for example, I decide that I want to work as a Ruby on Rails developer for a while? I have worked with ASP MVC so I have relevant experience, but obviously Ruby isn't C#.
Now for the question:
What are the consequences of
- boldly claiming, you'll pick up the required speicalizations because you're specialized in a related, similar field and are a fast learner
VS
taking a step back career wise and applying for junior/entry level positions when that new specialization is required?
Is it maybe a common enough practice in certain industries to hire people who haven't worked with a technology before but who have demonstrated an ability to learn fast in the past and giving them time to get up to speed?
career-development
edited Nov 28 '13 at 13:55
CMW
5,79912849
asked Nov 27 '13 at 19:46
JMK
728614
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
I'm using programming as an example since this is the situation I'm in:
Ok so I have a couple of years experience under my belt at this point working with C#/.Net and in that time have covered most of the .Net stack (Console Applications, Windows Services, Winforms, Webforms, WCF, WPF, MVC).
.Net is awesome, and I am at the point where I can apply for decent .Net jobs, and stand a good chance.
What if, for example, I decide that I want to work as a Ruby on Rails developer for a while? I have worked with ASP MVC so I have relevant experience, but obviously Ruby isn't C#.
Now for the question:
What are the consequences of
- boldly claiming, you'll pick up the required speicalizations because you're specialized in a related, similar field and are a fast learner
VS
taking a step back career wise and applying for junior/entry level positions when that new specialization is required?
Is it maybe a common enough practice in certain industries to hire people who haven't worked with a technology before but who have demonstrated an ability to learn fast in the past and giving them time to get up to speed?
career-development
edited Nov 28 '13 at 13:55
CMW
5,79912849
asked Nov 27 '13 at 19:46
JMK
728614
this might be better asked on programmers.stackexchange.com
– Preet Sangha
Nov 27 '13 at 19:57
I'm scared of those guys, they close everything but point taken! Thanks!
– JMK
Nov 27 '13 at 19:59
1
@PreetSangha I think you've got a wrong idea about Programmers
– gnat
Nov 27 '13 at 22:22
2
@PreetSangha P.SE is primarily about the design phase of a software project (rather than the implementation which tends to go on Stack Overflow). Career and skill development is specifically off topic on P.SE because to give a good answer it becomes very individualized. We enjoy such questions in the chat room, but as a question on the site, its not appropriate.
– user10042
Nov 28 '13 at 3:04
2
So I tried to edit the question in a way that makes it more applicable to a wider audience. @JMK please check if this is acceptable to you. I would very much love to keep this question open as it doesn't seem to belong to any other SE and it's a question that might be important to a lot of people.
– CMW
Nov 28 '13 at 9:13
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
I'm using programming as an example since this is the situation I'm in:
Ok so I have a couple of years experience under my belt at this point working with C#/.Net and in that time have covered most of the .Net stack (Console Applications, Windows Services, Winforms, Webforms, WCF, WPF, MVC).
.Net is awesome, and I am at the point where I can apply for decent .Net jobs, and stand a good chance.
What if, for example, I decide that I want to work as a Ruby on Rails developer for a while? I have worked with ASP MVC so I have relevant experience, but obviously Ruby isn't C#.
Now for the question:
What are the consequences of
- boldly claiming, you'll pick up the required speicalizations because you're specialized in a related, similar field and are a fast learner
VS
taking a step back career wise and applying for junior/entry level positions when that new specialization is required?
Is it maybe a common enough practice in certain industries to hire people who haven't worked with a technology before but who have demonstrated an ability to learn fast in the past and giving them time to get up to speed?
career-development
edited Nov 28 '13 at 13:55
CMW
5,79912849
asked Nov 27 '13 at 19:46
JMK
728614
I'm using programming as an example since this is the situation I'm in:
Ok so I have a couple of years experience under my belt at this point working with C#/.Net and in that time have covered most of the .Net stack (Console Applications, Windows Services, Winforms, Webforms, WCF, WPF, MVC).
.Net is awesome, and I am at the point where I can apply for decent .Net jobs, and stand a good chance.
What if, for example, I decide that I want to work as a Ruby on Rails developer for a while? I have worked with ASP MVC so I have relevant experience, but obviously Ruby isn't C#.
Now for the question:
What are the consequences of
- boldly claiming, you'll pick up the required speicalizations because you're specialized in a related, similar field and are a fast learner
VS
taking a step back career wise and applying for junior/entry level positions when that new specialization is required?
Is it maybe a common enough practice in certain industries to hire people who haven't worked with a technology before but who have demonstrated an ability to learn fast in the past and giving them time to get up to speed?
career-development
edited Nov 28 '13 at 13:55
CMW
5,79912849
asked Nov 27 '13 at 19:46
JMK
728614
edited Nov 28 '13 at 13:55
CMW
5,79912849
edited Nov 28 '13 at 13:55
CMW
5,79912849
edited Nov 28 '13 at 13:55
CMW
5,79912849
5,79912849
asked Nov 27 '13 at 19:46
JMK
728614
asked Nov 27 '13 at 19:46
JMK
728614
asked Nov 27 '13 at 19:46
JMK
728614
728614
this might be better asked on programmers.stackexchange.com
– Preet Sangha
Nov 27 '13 at 19:57
I'm scared of those guys, they close everything but point taken! Thanks!
– JMK
Nov 27 '13 at 19:59
1
@PreetSangha I think you've got a wrong idea about Programmers
– gnat
Nov 27 '13 at 22:22
2
@PreetSangha P.SE is primarily about the design phase of a software project (rather than the implementation which tends to go on Stack Overflow). Career and skill development is specifically off topic on P.SE because to give a good answer it becomes very individualized. We enjoy such questions in the chat room, but as a question on the site, its not appropriate.
– user10042
Nov 28 '13 at 3:04
2
So I tried to edit the question in a way that makes it more applicable to a wider audience. @JMK please check if this is acceptable to you. I would very much love to keep this question open as it doesn't seem to belong to any other SE and it's a question that might be important to a lot of people.
– CMW
Nov 28 '13 at 9:13
 |Â
show 3 more comments
this might be better asked on programmers.stackexchange.com
– Preet Sangha
Nov 27 '13 at 19:57
I'm scared of those guys, they close everything but point taken! Thanks!
– JMK
Nov 27 '13 at 19:59
1
@PreetSangha I think you've got a wrong idea about Programmers
– gnat
Nov 27 '13 at 22:22
2
@PreetSangha P.SE is primarily about the design phase of a software project (rather than the implementation which tends to go on Stack Overflow). Career and skill development is specifically off topic on P.SE because to give a good answer it becomes very individualized. We enjoy such questions in the chat room, but as a question on the site, its not appropriate.
– user10042
Nov 28 '13 at 3:04
2
So I tried to edit the question in a way that makes it more applicable to a wider audience. @JMK please check if this is acceptable to you. I would very much love to keep this question open as it doesn't seem to belong to any other SE and it's a question that might be important to a lot of people.
– CMW
Nov 28 '13 at 9:13
this might be better asked on programmers.stackexchange.com
– Preet Sangha
Nov 27 '13 at 19:57
this might be better asked on programmers.stackexchange.com
– Preet Sangha
Nov 27 '13 at 19:57
I'm scared of those guys, they close everything but point taken! Thanks!
– JMK
Nov 27 '13 at 19:59
I'm scared of those guys, they close everything but point taken! Thanks!
– JMK
Nov 27 '13 at 19:59
1
1
@PreetSangha I think you've got a wrong idea about Programmers
– gnat
Nov 27 '13 at 22:22
@PreetSangha I think you've got a wrong idea about Programmers
– gnat
Nov 27 '13 at 22:22
2
2
@PreetSangha P.SE is primarily about the design phase of a software project (rather than the implementation which tends to go on Stack Overflow). Career and skill development is specifically off topic on P.SE because to give a good answer it becomes very individualized. We enjoy such questions in the chat room, but as a question on the site, its not appropriate.
– user10042
Nov 28 '13 at 3:04
@PreetSangha P.SE is primarily about the design phase of a software project (rather than the implementation which tends to go on Stack Overflow). Career and skill development is specifically off topic on P.SE because to give a good answer it becomes very individualized. We enjoy such questions in the chat room, but as a question on the site, its not appropriate.
– user10042
Nov 28 '13 at 3:04
2
2
So I tried to edit the question in a way that makes it more applicable to a wider audience. @JMK please check if this is acceptable to you. I would very much love to keep this question open as it doesn't seem to belong to any other SE and it's a question that might be important to a lot of people.
– CMW
Nov 28 '13 at 9:13
So I tried to edit the question in a way that makes it more applicable to a wider audience. @JMK please check if this is acceptable to you. I would very much love to keep this question open as it doesn't seem to belong to any other SE and it's a question that might be important to a lot of people.
– CMW
Nov 28 '13 at 9:13
 |Â
show 3 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
12
down vote
accepted
How does a programmer change programming languages, professionally?
- Apply for a job where the skill that you want to learn is in the "nice to have" list and not the "must have 5-7 years experience".
In your free time (if you have any):
- Learn the skill on your own.
- Decide on a pet project that you can enjoy learning the skill with.
- Then, when you interview, you can explain that you do not yet have professional experience in that area, but you do have a demo of the work you've been doing with it.
answered Nov 27 '13 at 20:02
もã—もã—
539310
Great advice, thanks!
– JMK
Nov 27 '13 at 20:53
One comment: For your "Demo" work - try to re-solve an old business problem with the new technology (providing you aren't exposing any trade secrets in doing so). Playing with something at home vs. solving a business problem is very different. It shows you're serious about the technology, and not just dabbling.
– Wesley Long
Nov 28 '13 at 0:10
1
If you decide to use your free time to learn new programming languages, please see if you can do so by contributing to OSS projects.
– CMW
Nov 28 '13 at 9:20
@WesleyLong I think we mostly agree here. "Dabbling" and "playing around with" are counter to the advice being given. They are not examples of learning a new skill. Also, others may have better discipline during their off hours learning, but I find that I stay engaged and focused longer when working on my own projects. I have nothing against re-solving an old business problem if that holds your interest. But the goal is learning the new skill and you need to stay engaged to do so. Otherwise, you risk losing focus and only "dabbling" and "playing around with", which would be a failure.
– ã‚‚ã—もã—
Nov 29 '13 at 18:43
@もã—もã— - No one is saying that you aren't serious. However, there is a big difference in presentation. If you show someone a project where you can turn your water heater up or down based on time of day, that comes across as "dabbling." I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it comes across that way. If you show them, "We solved this workflow bottleneck this way," then you come across as serious. Presentation matters as much as substance in an interview.
– Wesley Long
Nov 29 '13 at 18:49
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
In such a circumstance I would look for someone 'migrating' from one to the other - it doesn't really matter which direction because you'll be expected to learn the one you don't understand. Often this occurs when one company acquires another and they have to reconcile two dissimilar environments. While this is a small subset of employers, there are people that are highly impressed with people willing to expand their range.
answered Nov 28 '13 at 9:37
Meredith Poor
8,8661730
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
12
down vote
accepted
How does a programmer change programming languages, professionally?
- Apply for a job where the skill that you want to learn is in the "nice to have" list and not the "must have 5-7 years experience".
In your free time (if you have any):
- Learn the skill on your own.
- Decide on a pet project that you can enjoy learning the skill with.
- Then, when you interview, you can explain that you do not yet have professional experience in that area, but you do have a demo of the work you've been doing with it.
answered Nov 27 '13 at 20:02
もã—もã—
539310
Great advice, thanks!
– JMK
Nov 27 '13 at 20:53
One comment: For your "Demo" work - try to re-solve an old business problem with the new technology (providing you aren't exposing any trade secrets in doing so). Playing with something at home vs. solving a business problem is very different. It shows you're serious about the technology, and not just dabbling.
– Wesley Long
Nov 28 '13 at 0:10
1
If you decide to use your free time to learn new programming languages, please see if you can do so by contributing to OSS projects.
– CMW
Nov 28 '13 at 9:20
@WesleyLong I think we mostly agree here. "Dabbling" and "playing around with" are counter to the advice being given. They are not examples of learning a new skill. Also, others may have better discipline during their off hours learning, but I find that I stay engaged and focused longer when working on my own projects. I have nothing against re-solving an old business problem if that holds your interest. But the goal is learning the new skill and you need to stay engaged to do so. Otherwise, you risk losing focus and only "dabbling" and "playing around with", which would be a failure.
– ã‚‚ã—もã—
Nov 29 '13 at 18:43
@もã—もã— - No one is saying that you aren't serious. However, there is a big difference in presentation. If you show someone a project where you can turn your water heater up or down based on time of day, that comes across as "dabbling." I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it comes across that way. If you show them, "We solved this workflow bottleneck this way," then you come across as serious. Presentation matters as much as substance in an interview.
– Wesley Long
Nov 29 '13 at 18:49
add a comment |Â
up vote
12
down vote
accepted
How does a programmer change programming languages, professionally?
- Apply for a job where the skill that you want to learn is in the "nice to have" list and not the "must have 5-7 years experience".
In your free time (if you have any):
- Learn the skill on your own.
- Decide on a pet project that you can enjoy learning the skill with.
- Then, when you interview, you can explain that you do not yet have professional experience in that area, but you do have a demo of the work you've been doing with it.
answered Nov 27 '13 at 20:02
もã—もã—
539310
Great advice, thanks!
– JMK
Nov 27 '13 at 20:53
One comment: For your "Demo" work - try to re-solve an old business problem with the new technology (providing you aren't exposing any trade secrets in doing so). Playing with something at home vs. solving a business problem is very different. It shows you're serious about the technology, and not just dabbling.
– Wesley Long
Nov 28 '13 at 0:10
1
If you decide to use your free time to learn new programming languages, please see if you can do so by contributing to OSS projects.
– CMW
Nov 28 '13 at 9:20
@WesleyLong I think we mostly agree here. "Dabbling" and "playing around with" are counter to the advice being given. They are not examples of learning a new skill. Also, others may have better discipline during their off hours learning, but I find that I stay engaged and focused longer when working on my own projects. I have nothing against re-solving an old business problem if that holds your interest. But the goal is learning the new skill and you need to stay engaged to do so. Otherwise, you risk losing focus and only "dabbling" and "playing around with", which would be a failure.
– ã‚‚ã—もã—
Nov 29 '13 at 18:43
@もã—もã— - No one is saying that you aren't serious. However, there is a big difference in presentation. If you show someone a project where you can turn your water heater up or down based on time of day, that comes across as "dabbling." I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it comes across that way. If you show them, "We solved this workflow bottleneck this way," then you come across as serious. Presentation matters as much as substance in an interview.
– Wesley Long
Nov 29 '13 at 18:49
add a comment |Â
up vote
12
down vote
accepted
up vote
12
down vote
accepted
How does a programmer change programming languages, professionally?
- Apply for a job where the skill that you want to learn is in the "nice to have" list and not the "must have 5-7 years experience".
In your free time (if you have any):
- Learn the skill on your own.
- Decide on a pet project that you can enjoy learning the skill with.
- Then, when you interview, you can explain that you do not yet have professional experience in that area, but you do have a demo of the work you've been doing with it.
answered Nov 27 '13 at 20:02
もã—もã—
539310
How does a programmer change programming languages, professionally?
- Apply for a job where the skill that you want to learn is in the "nice to have" list and not the "must have 5-7 years experience".
In your free time (if you have any):
- Learn the skill on your own.
- Decide on a pet project that you can enjoy learning the skill with.
- Then, when you interview, you can explain that you do not yet have professional experience in that area, but you do have a demo of the work you've been doing with it.
answered Nov 27 '13 at 20:02
もã—もã—
539310
answered Nov 27 '13 at 20:02
もã—もã—
539310
answered Nov 27 '13 at 20:02
もã—もã—
539310
answered Nov 27 '13 at 20:02
もã—もã—
539310
539310
Great advice, thanks!
– JMK
Nov 27 '13 at 20:53
One comment: For your "Demo" work - try to re-solve an old business problem with the new technology (providing you aren't exposing any trade secrets in doing so). Playing with something at home vs. solving a business problem is very different. It shows you're serious about the technology, and not just dabbling.
– Wesley Long
Nov 28 '13 at 0:10
1
If you decide to use your free time to learn new programming languages, please see if you can do so by contributing to OSS projects.
– CMW
Nov 28 '13 at 9:20
@WesleyLong I think we mostly agree here. "Dabbling" and "playing around with" are counter to the advice being given. They are not examples of learning a new skill. Also, others may have better discipline during their off hours learning, but I find that I stay engaged and focused longer when working on my own projects. I have nothing against re-solving an old business problem if that holds your interest. But the goal is learning the new skill and you need to stay engaged to do so. Otherwise, you risk losing focus and only "dabbling" and "playing around with", which would be a failure.
– ã‚‚ã—もã—
Nov 29 '13 at 18:43
@もã—もã— - No one is saying that you aren't serious. However, there is a big difference in presentation. If you show someone a project where you can turn your water heater up or down based on time of day, that comes across as "dabbling." I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it comes across that way. If you show them, "We solved this workflow bottleneck this way," then you come across as serious. Presentation matters as much as substance in an interview.
– Wesley Long
Nov 29 '13 at 18:49
add a comment |Â
Great advice, thanks!
– JMK
Nov 27 '13 at 20:53
One comment: For your "Demo" work - try to re-solve an old business problem with the new technology (providing you aren't exposing any trade secrets in doing so). Playing with something at home vs. solving a business problem is very different. It shows you're serious about the technology, and not just dabbling.
– Wesley Long
Nov 28 '13 at 0:10
1
If you decide to use your free time to learn new programming languages, please see if you can do so by contributing to OSS projects.
– CMW
Nov 28 '13 at 9:20
@WesleyLong I think we mostly agree here. "Dabbling" and "playing around with" are counter to the advice being given. They are not examples of learning a new skill. Also, others may have better discipline during their off hours learning, but I find that I stay engaged and focused longer when working on my own projects. I have nothing against re-solving an old business problem if that holds your interest. But the goal is learning the new skill and you need to stay engaged to do so. Otherwise, you risk losing focus and only "dabbling" and "playing around with", which would be a failure.
– ã‚‚ã—もã—
Nov 29 '13 at 18:43
@もã—もã— - No one is saying that you aren't serious. However, there is a big difference in presentation. If you show someone a project where you can turn your water heater up or down based on time of day, that comes across as "dabbling." I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it comes across that way. If you show them, "We solved this workflow bottleneck this way," then you come across as serious. Presentation matters as much as substance in an interview.
– Wesley Long
Nov 29 '13 at 18:49
Great advice, thanks!
– JMK
Nov 27 '13 at 20:53
Great advice, thanks!
– JMK
Nov 27 '13 at 20:53
One comment: For your "Demo" work - try to re-solve an old business problem with the new technology (providing you aren't exposing any trade secrets in doing so). Playing with something at home vs. solving a business problem is very different. It shows you're serious about the technology, and not just dabbling.
– Wesley Long
Nov 28 '13 at 0:10
One comment: For your "Demo" work - try to re-solve an old business problem with the new technology (providing you aren't exposing any trade secrets in doing so). Playing with something at home vs. solving a business problem is very different. It shows you're serious about the technology, and not just dabbling.
– Wesley Long
Nov 28 '13 at 0:10
1
1
If you decide to use your free time to learn new programming languages, please see if you can do so by contributing to OSS projects.
– CMW
Nov 28 '13 at 9:20
If you decide to use your free time to learn new programming languages, please see if you can do so by contributing to OSS projects.
– CMW
Nov 28 '13 at 9:20
@WesleyLong I think we mostly agree here. "Dabbling" and "playing around with" are counter to the advice being given. They are not examples of learning a new skill. Also, others may have better discipline during their off hours learning, but I find that I stay engaged and focused longer when working on my own projects. I have nothing against re-solving an old business problem if that holds your interest. But the goal is learning the new skill and you need to stay engaged to do so. Otherwise, you risk losing focus and only "dabbling" and "playing around with", which would be a failure.
– ã‚‚ã—もã—
Nov 29 '13 at 18:43
@WesleyLong I think we mostly agree here. "Dabbling" and "playing around with" are counter to the advice being given. They are not examples of learning a new skill. Also, others may have better discipline during their off hours learning, but I find that I stay engaged and focused longer when working on my own projects. I have nothing against re-solving an old business problem if that holds your interest. But the goal is learning the new skill and you need to stay engaged to do so. Otherwise, you risk losing focus and only "dabbling" and "playing around with", which would be a failure.
– ã‚‚ã—もã—
Nov 29 '13 at 18:43
@もã—もã— - No one is saying that you aren't serious. However, there is a big difference in presentation. If you show someone a project where you can turn your water heater up or down based on time of day, that comes across as "dabbling." I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it comes across that way. If you show them, "We solved this workflow bottleneck this way," then you come across as serious. Presentation matters as much as substance in an interview.
– Wesley Long
Nov 29 '13 at 18:49
@もã—もã— - No one is saying that you aren't serious. However, there is a big difference in presentation. If you show someone a project where you can turn your water heater up or down based on time of day, that comes across as "dabbling." I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it comes across that way. If you show them, "We solved this workflow bottleneck this way," then you come across as serious. Presentation matters as much as substance in an interview.
– Wesley Long
Nov 29 '13 at 18:49
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
In such a circumstance I would look for someone 'migrating' from one to the other - it doesn't really matter which direction because you'll be expected to learn the one you don't understand. Often this occurs when one company acquires another and they have to reconcile two dissimilar environments. While this is a small subset of employers, there are people that are highly impressed with people willing to expand their range.
answered Nov 28 '13 at 9:37
Meredith Poor
8,8661730
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
In such a circumstance I would look for someone 'migrating' from one to the other - it doesn't really matter which direction because you'll be expected to learn the one you don't understand. Often this occurs when one company acquires another and they have to reconcile two dissimilar environments. While this is a small subset of employers, there are people that are highly impressed with people willing to expand their range.
answered Nov 28 '13 at 9:37
Meredith Poor
8,8661730
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
In such a circumstance I would look for someone 'migrating' from one to the other - it doesn't really matter which direction because you'll be expected to learn the one you don't understand. Often this occurs when one company acquires another and they have to reconcile two dissimilar environments. While this is a small subset of employers, there are people that are highly impressed with people willing to expand their range.
answered Nov 28 '13 at 9:37
Meredith Poor
8,8661730
In such a circumstance I would look for someone 'migrating' from one to the other - it doesn't really matter which direction because you'll be expected to learn the one you don't understand. Often this occurs when one company acquires another and they have to reconcile two dissimilar environments. While this is a small subset of employers, there are people that are highly impressed with people willing to expand their range.
answered Nov 28 '13 at 9:37
Meredith Poor
8,8661730
answered Nov 28 '13 at 9:37
Meredith Poor
8,8661730
answered Nov 28 '13 at 9:37
Meredith Poor
8,8661730
answered Nov 28 '13 at 9:37
Meredith Poor
8,8661730
8,8661730
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
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this might be better asked on programmers.stackexchange.com
– Preet Sangha
Nov 27 '13 at 19:57
I'm scared of those guys, they close everything but point taken! Thanks!
– JMK
Nov 27 '13 at 19:59
1
@PreetSangha I think you've got a wrong idea about Programmers
– gnat
Nov 27 '13 at 22:22
2
@PreetSangha P.SE is primarily about the design phase of a software project (rather than the implementation which tends to go on Stack Overflow). Career and skill development is specifically off topic on P.SE because to give a good answer it becomes very individualized. We enjoy such questions in the chat room, but as a question on the site, its not appropriate.
– user10042
Nov 28 '13 at 3:04
2
So I tried to edit the question in a way that makes it more applicable to a wider audience. @JMK please check if this is acceptable to you. I would very much love to keep this question open as it doesn't seem to belong to any other SE and it's a question that might be important to a lot of people.
– CMW
Nov 28 '13 at 9:13