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Plural genitive in 1st and 2nd declension - how were mixed genders treated?
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Genitive plural personal nouns in 1st and 2nd declension: I am wondering how human possessors of mixed gender were treated in ancient Latin. For example, how would the following possessive be translated: 'This is the home of Mr and Mrs Catullus (i.e. of the Catulluses)? I suspect that the Romans would have used the masculine ending.
genetivus
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Genitive plural personal nouns in 1st and 2nd declension: I am wondering how human possessors of mixed gender were treated in ancient Latin. For example, how would the following possessive be translated: 'This is the home of Mr and Mrs Catullus (i.e. of the Catulluses)? I suspect that the Romans would have used the masculine ending.
genetivus
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K Wilson
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up vote
1
down vote
favorite
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
Genitive plural personal nouns in 1st and 2nd declension: I am wondering how human possessors of mixed gender were treated in ancient Latin. For example, how would the following possessive be translated: 'This is the home of Mr and Mrs Catullus (i.e. of the Catulluses)? I suspect that the Romans would have used the masculine ending.
genetivus
asked 5 hours ago
K Wilson
61
New contributor
K Wilson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Genitive plural personal nouns in 1st and 2nd declension: I am wondering how human possessors of mixed gender were treated in ancient Latin. For example, how would the following possessive be translated: 'This is the home of Mr and Mrs Catullus (i.e. of the Catulluses)? I suspect that the Romans would have used the masculine ending.
genetivus
genetivus
asked 5 hours ago
K Wilson
61
New contributor
K Wilson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 5 hours ago
K Wilson
61
New contributor
K Wilson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 5 hours ago
K Wilson
61
New contributor
K Wilson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 5 hours ago
K Wilson
61
asked 5 hours ago
K Wilson
61
61
New contributor
K Wilson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
K Wilson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
K Wilson is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
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2 Answers
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As a general rule, groups containing both men and women take the masculine in Latin. For example, a male friend is an amīcus (masculine), and a female friend is an amīca (feminine). But a group of friends of mixed genders will always be amīcī, masculine plural.
However, family names were a bit different in Roman times: they didn't quite have equivalents for "Mr" and "Mrs", and instead of saying "the Juliuses" (Juliī) they would generally use "the Julian clan" (gens Julia). If you wanted to be really pretentious, you'd use a Greek form: the Cornelius Scipio bloodline (as in Africanus) preferred to be called the Scīpiadae. And since clan was determined by birth rather than marriage, the wife of Cornelius wouldn't be in the gens Cornelia herself (unless she'd been born into it).
So in your particular case, if you're using ancient Roman names, it might be best to just use two separate genitives: ecce domus Corneliī Flaviaeque "behold, the house of Cornelius and Flavia".
answered 3 hours ago
Draconis
12.8k11651
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In such cases the masculine noun takes precedence (Pinkster 2015, Chapter 13: Agreement).
I found a good example in Pinkster 2015 (example (c) on p. 1285):
... propter summam et doctoris auctoritatem et urbis quorum alter te scientia augere potest altera exemplis (Cic. Off. 1.1.1)
doctoris - GEN.SG.M., urbis - GEN.SG.F., quorum - GEN.PL.M.
answered 2 hours ago
Alex B.
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
As a general rule, groups containing both men and women take the masculine in Latin. For example, a male friend is an amīcus (masculine), and a female friend is an amīca (feminine). But a group of friends of mixed genders will always be amīcī, masculine plural.
However, family names were a bit different in Roman times: they didn't quite have equivalents for "Mr" and "Mrs", and instead of saying "the Juliuses" (Juliī) they would generally use "the Julian clan" (gens Julia). If you wanted to be really pretentious, you'd use a Greek form: the Cornelius Scipio bloodline (as in Africanus) preferred to be called the Scīpiadae. And since clan was determined by birth rather than marriage, the wife of Cornelius wouldn't be in the gens Cornelia herself (unless she'd been born into it).
So in your particular case, if you're using ancient Roman names, it might be best to just use two separate genitives: ecce domus Corneliī Flaviaeque "behold, the house of Cornelius and Flavia".
answered 3 hours ago
Draconis
12.8k11651
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
As a general rule, groups containing both men and women take the masculine in Latin. For example, a male friend is an amīcus (masculine), and a female friend is an amīca (feminine). But a group of friends of mixed genders will always be amīcī, masculine plural.
However, family names were a bit different in Roman times: they didn't quite have equivalents for "Mr" and "Mrs", and instead of saying "the Juliuses" (Juliī) they would generally use "the Julian clan" (gens Julia). If you wanted to be really pretentious, you'd use a Greek form: the Cornelius Scipio bloodline (as in Africanus) preferred to be called the Scīpiadae. And since clan was determined by birth rather than marriage, the wife of Cornelius wouldn't be in the gens Cornelia herself (unless she'd been born into it).
So in your particular case, if you're using ancient Roman names, it might be best to just use two separate genitives: ecce domus Corneliī Flaviaeque "behold, the house of Cornelius and Flavia".
answered 3 hours ago
Draconis
12.8k11651
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
As a general rule, groups containing both men and women take the masculine in Latin. For example, a male friend is an amīcus (masculine), and a female friend is an amīca (feminine). But a group of friends of mixed genders will always be amīcī, masculine plural.
However, family names were a bit different in Roman times: they didn't quite have equivalents for "Mr" and "Mrs", and instead of saying "the Juliuses" (Juliī) they would generally use "the Julian clan" (gens Julia). If you wanted to be really pretentious, you'd use a Greek form: the Cornelius Scipio bloodline (as in Africanus) preferred to be called the Scīpiadae. And since clan was determined by birth rather than marriage, the wife of Cornelius wouldn't be in the gens Cornelia herself (unless she'd been born into it).
So in your particular case, if you're using ancient Roman names, it might be best to just use two separate genitives: ecce domus Corneliī Flaviaeque "behold, the house of Cornelius and Flavia".
answered 3 hours ago
Draconis
12.8k11651
As a general rule, groups containing both men and women take the masculine in Latin. For example, a male friend is an amīcus (masculine), and a female friend is an amīca (feminine). But a group of friends of mixed genders will always be amīcī, masculine plural.
However, family names were a bit different in Roman times: they didn't quite have equivalents for "Mr" and "Mrs", and instead of saying "the Juliuses" (Juliī) they would generally use "the Julian clan" (gens Julia). If you wanted to be really pretentious, you'd use a Greek form: the Cornelius Scipio bloodline (as in Africanus) preferred to be called the Scīpiadae. And since clan was determined by birth rather than marriage, the wife of Cornelius wouldn't be in the gens Cornelia herself (unless she'd been born into it).
So in your particular case, if you're using ancient Roman names, it might be best to just use two separate genitives: ecce domus Corneliī Flaviaeque "behold, the house of Cornelius and Flavia".
answered 3 hours ago
Draconis
12.8k11651
answered 3 hours ago
Draconis
12.8k11651
answered 3 hours ago
Draconis
12.8k11651
answered 3 hours ago
Draconis
12.8k11651
12.8k11651
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
In such cases the masculine noun takes precedence (Pinkster 2015, Chapter 13: Agreement).
I found a good example in Pinkster 2015 (example (c) on p. 1285):
... propter summam et doctoris auctoritatem et urbis quorum alter te scientia augere potest altera exemplis (Cic. Off. 1.1.1)
doctoris - GEN.SG.M., urbis - GEN.SG.F., quorum - GEN.PL.M.
answered 2 hours ago
Alex B.
7,34911327
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
In such cases the masculine noun takes precedence (Pinkster 2015, Chapter 13: Agreement).
I found a good example in Pinkster 2015 (example (c) on p. 1285):
... propter summam et doctoris auctoritatem et urbis quorum alter te scientia augere potest altera exemplis (Cic. Off. 1.1.1)
doctoris - GEN.SG.M., urbis - GEN.SG.F., quorum - GEN.PL.M.
answered 2 hours ago
Alex B.
7,34911327
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
In such cases the masculine noun takes precedence (Pinkster 2015, Chapter 13: Agreement).
I found a good example in Pinkster 2015 (example (c) on p. 1285):
... propter summam et doctoris auctoritatem et urbis quorum alter te scientia augere potest altera exemplis (Cic. Off. 1.1.1)
doctoris - GEN.SG.M., urbis - GEN.SG.F., quorum - GEN.PL.M.
answered 2 hours ago
Alex B.
7,34911327
In such cases the masculine noun takes precedence (Pinkster 2015, Chapter 13: Agreement).
I found a good example in Pinkster 2015 (example (c) on p. 1285):
... propter summam et doctoris auctoritatem et urbis quorum alter te scientia augere potest altera exemplis (Cic. Off. 1.1.1)
doctoris - GEN.SG.M., urbis - GEN.SG.F., quorum - GEN.PL.M.
answered 2 hours ago
Alex B.
7,34911327
answered 2 hours ago
Alex B.
7,34911327
answered 2 hours ago
Alex B.
7,34911327
answered 2 hours ago
Alex B.
7,34911327
7,34911327
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
K Wilson is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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