What is the Spanish Homophonic Group?

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From the math.stackexchange question: The homophonic group: a mathematical diversion:

By definition, English words have the same pronunciation if their phonetic spellings in the dictionary are the same. The homophonic group H is generated by the letters of the alphabet, subject to the following relations: English words with the same pronunciation represent equal elements of the group. Thus be=bee, and since H is a group, we can conclude that e=1 (why?). Try to determine the group H.

This is an exercise from Michael Artin's Algebra on, well, abstract algebra.

In this exercise for the English language, words are equal if they are homophones, kind of like a formalisation of the joke that sin(x)/n=6. So in English:

• bee=be → This implies e=1 by cancellation of b and e.




• buy=by → This implies u=1 by cancellation of b and y.




• rase=raze → This implies s=z by cancellation of r, a and e.




• canvass = canvas → This implies s=1 by cancellation of c,a,n,v,a and s. By canvass=canvas and rase=raze, we have s=z=1.

Eventually, all 26 English letters will equal 1. Apparently, this was done for French and Czech.

What then is the analagous group for Spanish? Equivalently, what Spanish letters won't equal 1?

ortografía pronunciación juego matemáticas alfabeto

share|improve this question

edited Aug 17 at 11:10

ukemi

6,48921548

asked Aug 16 at 14:02

BCLC

1298

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  I think i would upvote this if i could understand the question
  – Mike
  Aug 16 at 19:40
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @Mike The game is considering that each letter is a number, and words are "numbers put together in multiplication. So buy=by actually means "b·u·y=b·y, so u must equal 1.
  – FGSUZ
  Aug 16 at 20:07
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  so. "copa" = "paco" ?
  – Mike
  Aug 16 at 20:47
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @Mike assuming the group is commutative, yes.
  – ukemi
  Aug 16 at 21:58
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @BCLC nope, but in English neither do till and lilt, despite being equal elements of the group in English (since all letters are the identity). The set of homophone words is the equality relation we start with, but this implies equality between many more words which aren't homophones. E.g. e=1 → bat = bat•1 = bat•e = bate which is not pronounced the same as bat.
  – ukemi
  Aug 17 at 14:38
  
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 6 more comments

up vote
3
down vote

favorite

1

From the math.stackexchange question: The homophonic group: a mathematical diversion:

By definition, English words have the same pronunciation if their phonetic spellings in the dictionary are the same. The homophonic group H is generated by the letters of the alphabet, subject to the following relations: English words with the same pronunciation represent equal elements of the group. Thus be=bee, and since H is a group, we can conclude that e=1 (why?). Try to determine the group H.

This is an exercise from Michael Artin's Algebra on, well, abstract algebra.

In this exercise for the English language, words are equal if they are homophones, kind of like a formalisation of the joke that sin(x)/n=6. So in English:

• bee=be → This implies e=1 by cancellation of b and e.




• buy=by → This implies u=1 by cancellation of b and y.




• rase=raze → This implies s=z by cancellation of r, a and e.




• canvass = canvas → This implies s=1 by cancellation of c,a,n,v,a and s. By canvass=canvas and rase=raze, we have s=z=1.

Eventually, all 26 English letters will equal 1. Apparently, this was done for French and Czech.

What then is the analagous group for Spanish? Equivalently, what Spanish letters won't equal 1?

ortografía pronunciación juego matemáticas alfabeto

share|improve this question

edited Aug 17 at 11:10

ukemi

6,48921548

asked Aug 16 at 14:02

BCLC

1298

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  I think i would upvote this if i could understand the question
  – Mike
  Aug 16 at 19:40
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @Mike The game is considering that each letter is a number, and words are "numbers put together in multiplication. So buy=by actually means "b·u·y=b·y, so u must equal 1.
  – FGSUZ
  Aug 16 at 20:07
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  so. "copa" = "paco" ?
  – Mike
  Aug 16 at 20:47
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @Mike assuming the group is commutative, yes.
  – ukemi
  Aug 16 at 21:58
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @BCLC nope, but in English neither do till and lilt, despite being equal elements of the group in English (since all letters are the identity). The set of homophone words is the equality relation we start with, but this implies equality between many more words which aren't homophones. E.g. e=1 → bat = bat•1 = bat•e = bate which is not pronounced the same as bat.
  – ukemi
  Aug 17 at 14:38
  
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 6 more comments

up vote
3
down vote

favorite

1

up vote
3
down vote

favorite

1

1

From the math.stackexchange question: The homophonic group: a mathematical diversion:

By definition, English words have the same pronunciation if their phonetic spellings in the dictionary are the same. The homophonic group H is generated by the letters of the alphabet, subject to the following relations: English words with the same pronunciation represent equal elements of the group. Thus be=bee, and since H is a group, we can conclude that e=1 (why?). Try to determine the group H.

This is an exercise from Michael Artin's Algebra on, well, abstract algebra.

In this exercise for the English language, words are equal if they are homophones, kind of like a formalisation of the joke that sin(x)/n=6. So in English:

• bee=be → This implies e=1 by cancellation of b and e.




• buy=by → This implies u=1 by cancellation of b and y.




• rase=raze → This implies s=z by cancellation of r, a and e.




• canvass = canvas → This implies s=1 by cancellation of c,a,n,v,a and s. By canvass=canvas and rase=raze, we have s=z=1.

Eventually, all 26 English letters will equal 1. Apparently, this was done for French and Czech.

What then is the analagous group for Spanish? Equivalently, what Spanish letters won't equal 1?

ortografía pronunciación juego matemáticas alfabeto

share|improve this question

edited Aug 17 at 11:10

ukemi

6,48921548

asked Aug 16 at 14:02

BCLC

1298

From the math.stackexchange question: The homophonic group: a mathematical diversion:

By definition, English words have the same pronunciation if their phonetic spellings in the dictionary are the same. The homophonic group H is generated by the letters of the alphabet, subject to the following relations: English words with the same pronunciation represent equal elements of the group. Thus be=bee, and since H is a group, we can conclude that e=1 (why?). Try to determine the group H.

This is an exercise from Michael Artin's Algebra on, well, abstract algebra.

In this exercise for the English language, words are equal if they are homophones, kind of like a formalisation of the joke that sin(x)/n=6. So in English:

• bee=be → This implies e=1 by cancellation of b and e.




• buy=by → This implies u=1 by cancellation of b and y.




• rase=raze → This implies s=z by cancellation of r, a and e.




• canvass = canvas → This implies s=1 by cancellation of c,a,n,v,a and s. By canvass=canvas and rase=raze, we have s=z=1.

Eventually, all 26 English letters will equal 1. Apparently, this was done for French and Czech.

What then is the analagous group for Spanish? Equivalently, what Spanish letters won't equal 1?

ortografía pronunciación juego matemáticas alfabeto

share|improve this question

edited Aug 17 at 11:10

ukemi

6,48921548

asked Aug 16 at 14:02

BCLC

1298

share|improve this question

share|improve this question

edited Aug 17 at 11:10

ukemi

6,48921548

edited Aug 17 at 11:10

ukemi

6,48921548

edited Aug 17 at 11:10

ukemi

6,48921548

6,48921548

asked Aug 16 at 14:02

BCLC

1298

asked Aug 16 at 14:02

BCLC

1298

asked Aug 16 at 14:02

BCLC

1298

1298

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  I think i would upvote this if i could understand the question
  – Mike
  Aug 16 at 19:40
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @Mike The game is considering that each letter is a number, and words are "numbers put together in multiplication. So buy=by actually means "b·u·y=b·y, so u must equal 1.
  – FGSUZ
  Aug 16 at 20:07
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  so. "copa" = "paco" ?
  – Mike
  Aug 16 at 20:47
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @Mike assuming the group is commutative, yes.
  – ukemi
  Aug 16 at 21:58
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @BCLC nope, but in English neither do till and lilt, despite being equal elements of the group in English (since all letters are the identity). The set of homophone words is the equality relation we start with, but this implies equality between many more words which aren't homophones. E.g. e=1 → bat = bat•1 = bat•e = bate which is not pronounced the same as bat.
  – ukemi
  Aug 17 at 14:38
  
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 6 more comments

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  I think i would upvote this if i could understand the question
  – Mike
  Aug 16 at 19:40
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @Mike The game is considering that each letter is a number, and words are "numbers put together in multiplication. So buy=by actually means "b·u·y=b·y, so u must equal 1.
  – FGSUZ
  Aug 16 at 20:07
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  so. "copa" = "paco" ?
  – Mike
  Aug 16 at 20:47
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @Mike assuming the group is commutative, yes.
  – ukemi
  Aug 16 at 21:58
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @BCLC nope, but in English neither do till and lilt, despite being equal elements of the group in English (since all letters are the identity). The set of homophone words is the equality relation we start with, but this implies equality between many more words which aren't homophones. E.g. e=1 → bat = bat•1 = bat•e = bate which is not pronounced the same as bat.
  – ukemi
  Aug 17 at 14:38
  
  

  
  
  
  

1

1

I think i would upvote this if i could understand the question
– Mike
Aug 16 at 19:40

I think i would upvote this if i could understand the question
– Mike
Aug 16 at 19:40

2

2

@Mike The game is considering that each letter is a number, and words are "numbers put together in multiplication. So buy=by actually means "b·u·y=b·y, so u must equal 1.
– FGSUZ
Aug 16 at 20:07

@Mike The game is considering that each letter is a number, and words are "numbers put together in multiplication. So buy=by actually means "b·u·y=b·y, so u must equal 1.
– FGSUZ
Aug 16 at 20:07

1

1

so. "copa" = "paco" ?
– Mike
Aug 16 at 20:47

so. "copa" = "paco" ?
– Mike
Aug 16 at 20:47

2

2

@Mike assuming the group is commutative, yes.
– ukemi
Aug 16 at 21:58

@Mike assuming the group is commutative, yes.
– ukemi
Aug 16 at 21:58

1

1

@BCLC nope, but in English neither do till and lilt, despite being equal elements of the group in English (since all letters are the identity). The set of homophone words is the equality relation we start with, but this implies equality between many more words which aren't homophones. E.g. e=1 → bat = bat•1 = bat•e = bate which is not pronounced the same as bat.
– ukemi
Aug 17 at 14:38

@BCLC nope, but in English neither do till and lilt, despite being equal elements of the group in English (since all letters are the identity). The set of homophone words is the equality relation we start with, but this implies equality between many more words which aren't homophones. E.g. e=1 → bat = bat•1 = bat•e = bate which is not pronounced the same as bat.
– ukemi
Aug 17 at 14:38

 | 
show 6 more comments

2 Answers
2

active

oldest

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up vote
4
down vote



accepted

This question may have different answers depending on the dialect of Spanish you consider, and which words you include (loanwords etc), and what letters you consider distinct.

The Castilian Case

To start off, let's assume a Castilian accent with distinción, no yeísmo, no non-nativised loanwords (i.e. those that appear in italics in the DLE), and letters with diacritics are not distinct (i.e. á=a, ú=u=ü etc).

When it doesn't appear in the digraph ch, h is silent. Thus, for example:

0. Silent letters

1. ha = /a/ = a ⇒ h=1

Some letters are pronounced identically (in certain contexts), for example:

1. 
   

   Identical sounds

   
   
   
   1. bote = /ˈbote/ = vote ⇒ b=v
   
   
   2. agito = /aˈxito/ = ajito ⇒ g=j
   
   
   3. encima = /enˈθima/ = enzima ⇒ c=z
   
   
   4. cappa = kappa ⇒ c=k
   
   
   5. samurái = samuray ⇒ i=y
   
   


2. 
   

   Old orthographies

   
   
   
   1. quilo = kilo ⇒ qu=k
   
   
   2. México = Méjico ⇒ x=j
   
   
   3. huincha = wincha ⇒ hu=w ⇒ u=w (via 0.1)
   
   
   4. 
      wolframio = volframio ⇒ w=v
   
   
   5. 
      cuórum = quorum ⇒ c=q ^{(assuming inclusion of Italic Latin words)}
   
   


3. 
   

   Alophonic quirks

   
   
   
   1. 
      icnita = ignita ⇒ c=g ^{(/k/ voiced approximant [ɣ] before a voiced consonant)}
   
   
   2. yezgo = yedgo ⇒ z=d ^{(/θ/ voiced [ð] before a voiced consonant)}
   
   
   3. zafra = [ˈθavɾa] ~ [ˈθaβɾa] = zabra ⇒ f=b ^{(/f/ voiced [v] before a voiced consonant, [v] allophone of /b/) (e.g. afgano = [avˈgano])}
   
   
   4. excusa = escusa ⇒ x=s
   
   
   5. 
      envasar = embasar ⇒ nv=mb ⇒ n=m (via 1.1)
   
   


4. 
   

   Greek simplified consonant clusters

   
   
   
   1. 
      gneis = neis ⇒ gn=n ⇒ g=1
   
   
   2. 
      psicología = sicología ⇒ ps=s ⇒ p=1
   
   
   3. 
      cneoráceo = neoráceo ⇒ cn=n ⇒ c=1
   
   
   4. 
      mnemónica = nemónica ⇒ mn=n ⇒ m=1
   
   


5. 
   

   Other reduced consonant clusters

   
   
   
   1. 
      postmoderno = posmoderno ⇒ post=pos ⇒ t=1
   
   
   2. 
      substancia = sustancia ⇒ subs=sus ⇒ b=1
      
      
      • (1.1) ⇒ 1=v, (2.4) ⇒ 1=w, (2.3) ⇒ 1=u ⇒ qu=q, (2.1) ⇒ q=k
      
      
   
   
   3. 
      detall = detal ⇒ ll=l ⇒ l=1
      
      
      • l=1, (7.2) ⇒ i=1 ⇒ ni=n, (7.1) ⇒ n=ñ
      
      
   
   
   4. 
      mixtificar = mistificar ⇒ x=s
   
   
   5. desrabar = derrabar^{1 2 (p.50)} ⇒ sr=rr ⇒ s=r ^{Elision of 's' in consonant cluster 'sr' and fricative realisation of 'r' i.e. 'r' > 'rr' (fricative interpreted by native speakers as allophonic to trill, never to tap)}
   
   


6. 
   

   Hiatus > diphthong

   
   
   
   1. noroeste = norueste ⇒ o=u ^{(e.g. toalla > [ˈtwaja])}
   
   
   2. óleo = olio ⇒ i=e ^{(e.g. beatitud > [bʝatiˈtuð])}
   
   


7. 
   

   Palatals with alt. orthographies

   
   
   
   1. 
      pergeño = pergenio ⇒ ñ=ni ^{(/n/ palatal before /j/)}
   
   
   2. buganvilla = buganvilia ⇒ ll=li ⇒ l=i
   
   

Finally we deal with the element a here:

8. 
   Synalepha of compound words
   
   
   1. 
      contraalmirante = contralmirante ⇒ aa=a ⇒ a=1 ^{(see also bezaar > bezar etc)}
   
   

Thus, all letters a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,ñ,o,p,q,r,s,t,u,v,w,x,y,z are equivalent to the identity, and our group is the trivial group on one element.

---

Andalusia

Many of these relationships can be achieved without such obscure examples if we instead consider the dialects of Andalusia:

• 
  seseo
  
  
  • casa = caza ⇒ s=z
  
  


• 
  yeísmo
  
  
  • arrollo = arroyo ⇒ ll=y
  
  


• aspirated terminal "s" and where /x/ is realised as [h]
  
  
  • as = aj ⇒ s=j
  
  


• elision of d:
  
  
  • cnatador = cantaór ⇒ d=1
  
  


• pronunciation of etymologically Latin h:
  
  
  • ⇒ g=j=h
  
  


• elision of terminal r:
  
  
  • comer = [kome] = comed ⇒ r=d
  
  

Though we must omit rule 3.2 since in seseo the voiced realisation of /s/ is [z], not [ð].

---

Diacritics

If we cannot assume identity of diacritical letters, this can be easily achieved with:

• cual=cuál ⇒ a=á


• el=él ⇒ e=é


• si=sí ⇒ i=í


• como=cómo ⇒ o=ó


• tu=tú ⇒ u=ú

ü is slightly trickier, but achievable with some obscure words with alternate orthographies:

• 
  higuela = higüela ⇒ u=ü

---

Relevant links:

• ^{Exception to the Phonetic Rule}

Notes:

• ^{Can also get sh = ch via some nativised loanwords e.g marshalés}

share|improve this answer

edited Aug 17 at 15:31

answered Aug 16 at 18:15

ukemi

6,48921548

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  But are all these actually homophones? Aren't some indeed variations of pronunciations, and as such, all but homophones?
  – Rafael
  Aug 17 at 14:13
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

up vote
2
down vote

It may be easier to consider this in the reverse. Which letters could be 1?

Let's begin with the vowels:

A, E, O, and U can only be written as such, and are always pronounced (except for the u in the sequence [gq][ue][iy]). Removing any of them will change the pronunciation of the word. While I next to another vowel and Y are indeed generally equivalent, they are always pronounced, and again removing them will alter the pronunciation. In practice, it may be possible to consider words like cree to give E a score of 1, but in even minimally formal speech, each E is distinguished and thus cree is distinct from cre. So no vowels can have a score of 1.

For consonants, we'd need to find sequences with equivalent pronunciations. That would require a doubled letter or in someway finding letter sequences with equivalent pronunciations.

The only doubled consonants are cc, ll, nn, rr, each of which represent different sounds than an equivalently positioned c, l, n, r). Imported words like pizza may have special rules, but I'm not sure we can derive much from them, as there's no way to predict the rule that the reduced version would follow. Thus C/L/N/R cannot score a 1.

The only letter sequences with equivalent pronunciations in all dialects are B/V but since they are never found next to each other that doesn't change anything (and if they were, like with nn they'd be split between syllables), and N/M and X/J in certain positions. Dialectically, there are other possibilities (S/Z/C, LL/Y, D/Z, D/T, H/J, X/S, S/J) but they will all be beholden to the same issues and won't allow a score of 1.

H can be removed without varying the pronunciation in words in which it is not preceded by a C. Thus it can score a 1. Dialectically, an H and and a J could potentially have the same pronunciation, so in some areas, if I'm understanding the examples on the other page correctly, J could then equal 1 by extension of J=H, but if and only if those letters appear in separate distinct words. But that requires relying on a specific dialect, and isn't generalizable. But using that one and other dialects, we could maybe extend it to a few more letters, as sometimes S can sound like J, and thence to Z and C. But I think that'd be the extent of it.

All other consonants with will only appear once in words, with no phonetic substitution possible, and thus their removal necessitates scores distinct from 1.

share|improve this answer

edited Aug 16 at 14:41

answered Aug 16 at 14:32

guifa

23.8k13068

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  Just a note, the combination 'bv' does occasionally appear: obvención, obvencional, obviable, obviamente, obviar, obviedad, obvio, subvención, subvencionable, subvencionar, subvenio, subvenir, subversión, subversivo, subversor, subvertir
  – ukemi
  Aug 16 at 16:03
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @ukemi ah, yes, I didn't think of prefixation. Here the removal of one will modify the pronunciation but with even less of a distinction as cree -> cre, although technically both /b/ are pronounced (consider how tiny the difference between the sequences obio, obvio and obpio. There is a difference, but in rapid speech it may be imperceptible). In that case, we may consider B=V=1 and possibly even P=1, but I don't think further extension is possible.
  – guifa
  Aug 16 at 16:17
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  Guifa do you agree with ukemi?
  – BCLC
  Aug 17 at 11:09
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

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2 Answers
2

active

oldest

votes

2 Answers
2

active

oldest

votes

active

oldest

votes

active

oldest

votes

up vote
4
down vote



accepted

This question may have different answers depending on the dialect of Spanish you consider, and which words you include (loanwords etc), and what letters you consider distinct.

The Castilian Case

To start off, let's assume a Castilian accent with distinción, no yeísmo, no non-nativised loanwords (i.e. those that appear in italics in the DLE), and letters with diacritics are not distinct (i.e. á=a, ú=u=ü etc).

When it doesn't appear in the digraph ch, h is silent. Thus, for example:

0. Silent letters

1. ha = /a/ = a ⇒ h=1

Some letters are pronounced identically (in certain contexts), for example:

1. 
   

   Identical sounds

   
   
   
   1. bote = /ˈbote/ = vote ⇒ b=v
   
   
   2. agito = /aˈxito/ = ajito ⇒ g=j
   
   
   3. encima = /enˈθima/ = enzima ⇒ c=z
   
   
   4. cappa = kappa ⇒ c=k
   
   
   5. samurái = samuray ⇒ i=y
   
   


2. 
   

   Old orthographies

   
   
   
   1. quilo = kilo ⇒ qu=k
   
   
   2. México = Méjico ⇒ x=j
   
   
   3. huincha = wincha ⇒ hu=w ⇒ u=w (via 0.1)
   
   
   4. 
      wolframio = volframio ⇒ w=v
   
   
   5. 
      cuórum = quorum ⇒ c=q ^{(assuming inclusion of Italic Latin words)}
   
   


3. 
   

   Alophonic quirks

   
   
   
   1. 
      icnita = ignita ⇒ c=g ^{(/k/ voiced approximant [ɣ] before a voiced consonant)}
   
   
   2. yezgo = yedgo ⇒ z=d ^{(/θ/ voiced [ð] before a voiced consonant)}
   
   
   3. zafra = [ˈθavɾa] ~ [ˈθaβɾa] = zabra ⇒ f=b ^{(/f/ voiced [v] before a voiced consonant, [v] allophone of /b/) (e.g. afgano = [avˈgano])}
   
   
   4. excusa = escusa ⇒ x=s
   
   
   5. 
      envasar = embasar ⇒ nv=mb ⇒ n=m (via 1.1)
   
   


4. 
   

   Greek simplified consonant clusters

   
   
   
   1. 
      gneis = neis ⇒ gn=n ⇒ g=1
   
   
   2. 
      psicología = sicología ⇒ ps=s ⇒ p=1
   
   
   3. 
      cneoráceo = neoráceo ⇒ cn=n ⇒ c=1
   
   
   4. 
      mnemónica = nemónica ⇒ mn=n ⇒ m=1
   
   


5. 
   

   Other reduced consonant clusters

   
   
   
   1. 
      postmoderno = posmoderno ⇒ post=pos ⇒ t=1
   
   
   2. 
      substancia = sustancia ⇒ subs=sus ⇒ b=1
      
      
      • (1.1) ⇒ 1=v, (2.4) ⇒ 1=w, (2.3) ⇒ 1=u ⇒ qu=q, (2.1) ⇒ q=k
      
      
   
   
   3. 
      detall = detal ⇒ ll=l ⇒ l=1
      
      
      • l=1, (7.2) ⇒ i=1 ⇒ ni=n, (7.1) ⇒ n=ñ
      
      
   
   
   4. 
      mixtificar = mistificar ⇒ x=s
   
   
   5. desrabar = derrabar^{1 2 (p.50)} ⇒ sr=rr ⇒ s=r ^{Elision of 's' in consonant cluster 'sr' and fricative realisation of 'r' i.e. 'r' > 'rr' (fricative interpreted by native speakers as allophonic to trill, never to tap)}
   
   


6. 
   

   Hiatus > diphthong

   
   
   
   1. noroeste = norueste ⇒ o=u ^{(e.g. toalla > [ˈtwaja])}
   
   
   2. óleo = olio ⇒ i=e ^{(e.g. beatitud > [bʝatiˈtuð])}
   
   


7. 
   

   Palatals with alt. orthographies

   
   
   
   1. 
      pergeño = pergenio ⇒ ñ=ni ^{(/n/ palatal before /j/)}
   
   
   2. buganvilla = buganvilia ⇒ ll=li ⇒ l=i
   
   

Finally we deal with the element a here:

8. 
   Synalepha of compound words
   
   
   1. 
      contraalmirante = contralmirante ⇒ aa=a ⇒ a=1 ^{(see also bezaar > bezar etc)}
   
   

Thus, all letters a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,ñ,o,p,q,r,s,t,u,v,w,x,y,z are equivalent to the identity, and our group is the trivial group on one element.

---

Andalusia

Many of these relationships can be achieved without such obscure examples if we instead consider the dialects of Andalusia:

• 
  seseo
  
  
  • casa = caza ⇒ s=z
  
  


• 
  yeísmo
  
  
  • arrollo = arroyo ⇒ ll=y
  
  


• aspirated terminal "s" and where /x/ is realised as [h]
  
  
  • as = aj ⇒ s=j
  
  


• elision of d:
  
  
  • cnatador = cantaór ⇒ d=1
  
  


• pronunciation of etymologically Latin h:
  
  
  • ⇒ g=j=h
  
  


• elision of terminal r:
  
  
  • comer = [kome] = comed ⇒ r=d
  
  

Though we must omit rule 3.2 since in seseo the voiced realisation of /s/ is [z], not [ð].

---

Diacritics

If we cannot assume identity of diacritical letters, this can be easily achieved with:

• cual=cuál ⇒ a=á


• el=él ⇒ e=é


• si=sí ⇒ i=í


• como=cómo ⇒ o=ó


• tu=tú ⇒ u=ú

ü is slightly trickier, but achievable with some obscure words with alternate orthographies:

• 
  higuela = higüela ⇒ u=ü

---

Relevant links:

• ^{Exception to the Phonetic Rule}

Notes:

• ^{Can also get sh = ch via some nativised loanwords e.g marshalés}

share|improve this answer

edited Aug 17 at 15:31

answered Aug 16 at 18:15

ukemi

6,48921548

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  But are all these actually homophones? Aren't some indeed variations of pronunciations, and as such, all but homophones?
  – Rafael
  Aug 17 at 14:13
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

up vote
4
down vote



accepted

This question may have different answers depending on the dialect of Spanish you consider, and which words you include (loanwords etc), and what letters you consider distinct.

The Castilian Case

To start off, let's assume a Castilian accent with distinción, no yeísmo, no non-nativised loanwords (i.e. those that appear in italics in the DLE), and letters with diacritics are not distinct (i.e. á=a, ú=u=ü etc).

When it doesn't appear in the digraph ch, h is silent. Thus, for example:

0. Silent letters

1. ha = /a/ = a ⇒ h=1

Some letters are pronounced identically (in certain contexts), for example:

1. 
   

   Identical sounds

   
   
   
   1. bote = /ˈbote/ = vote ⇒ b=v
   
   
   2. agito = /aˈxito/ = ajito ⇒ g=j
   
   
   3. encima = /enˈθima/ = enzima ⇒ c=z
   
   
   4. cappa = kappa ⇒ c=k
   
   
   5. samurái = samuray ⇒ i=y
   
   


2. 
   

   Old orthographies

   
   
   
   1. quilo = kilo ⇒ qu=k
   
   
   2. México = Méjico ⇒ x=j
   
   
   3. huincha = wincha ⇒ hu=w ⇒ u=w (via 0.1)
   
   
   4. 
      wolframio = volframio ⇒ w=v
   
   
   5. 
      cuórum = quorum ⇒ c=q ^{(assuming inclusion of Italic Latin words)}
   
   


3. 
   

   Alophonic quirks

   
   
   
   1. 
      icnita = ignita ⇒ c=g ^{(/k/ voiced approximant [ɣ] before a voiced consonant)}
   
   
   2. yezgo = yedgo ⇒ z=d ^{(/θ/ voiced [ð] before a voiced consonant)}
   
   
   3. zafra = [ˈθavɾa] ~ [ˈθaβɾa] = zabra ⇒ f=b ^{(/f/ voiced [v] before a voiced consonant, [v] allophone of /b/) (e.g. afgano = [avˈgano])}
   
   
   4. excusa = escusa ⇒ x=s
   
   
   5. 
      envasar = embasar ⇒ nv=mb ⇒ n=m (via 1.1)
   
   


4. 
   

   Greek simplified consonant clusters

   
   
   
   1. 
      gneis = neis ⇒ gn=n ⇒ g=1
   
   
   2. 
      psicología = sicología ⇒ ps=s ⇒ p=1
   
   
   3. 
      cneoráceo = neoráceo ⇒ cn=n ⇒ c=1
   
   
   4. 
      mnemónica = nemónica ⇒ mn=n ⇒ m=1
   
   


5. 
   

   Other reduced consonant clusters

   
   
   
   1. 
      postmoderno = posmoderno ⇒ post=pos ⇒ t=1
   
   
   2. 
      substancia = sustancia ⇒ subs=sus ⇒ b=1
      
      
      • (1.1) ⇒ 1=v, (2.4) ⇒ 1=w, (2.3) ⇒ 1=u ⇒ qu=q, (2.1) ⇒ q=k
      
      
   
   
   3. 
      detall = detal ⇒ ll=l ⇒ l=1
      
      
      • l=1, (7.2) ⇒ i=1 ⇒ ni=n, (7.1) ⇒ n=ñ
      
      
   
   
   4. 
      mixtificar = mistificar ⇒ x=s
   
   
   5. desrabar = derrabar^{1 2 (p.50)} ⇒ sr=rr ⇒ s=r ^{Elision of 's' in consonant cluster 'sr' and fricative realisation of 'r' i.e. 'r' > 'rr' (fricative interpreted by native speakers as allophonic to trill, never to tap)}
   
   


6. 
   

   Hiatus > diphthong

   
   
   
   1. noroeste = norueste ⇒ o=u ^{(e.g. toalla > [ˈtwaja])}
   
   
   2. óleo = olio ⇒ i=e ^{(e.g. beatitud > [bʝatiˈtuð])}
   
   


7. 
   

   Palatals with alt. orthographies

   
   
   
   1. 
      pergeño = pergenio ⇒ ñ=ni ^{(/n/ palatal before /j/)}
   
   
   2. buganvilla = buganvilia ⇒ ll=li ⇒ l=i
   
   

Finally we deal with the element a here:

8. 
   Synalepha of compound words
   
   
   1. 
      contraalmirante = contralmirante ⇒ aa=a ⇒ a=1 ^{(see also bezaar > bezar etc)}
   
   

Thus, all letters a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,ñ,o,p,q,r,s,t,u,v,w,x,y,z are equivalent to the identity, and our group is the trivial group on one element.

---

Andalusia

Many of these relationships can be achieved without such obscure examples if we instead consider the dialects of Andalusia:

• 
  seseo
  
  
  • casa = caza ⇒ s=z
  
  


• 
  yeísmo
  
  
  • arrollo = arroyo ⇒ ll=y
  
  


• aspirated terminal "s" and where /x/ is realised as [h]
  
  
  • as = aj ⇒ s=j
  
  


• elision of d:
  
  
  • cnatador = cantaór ⇒ d=1
  
  


• pronunciation of etymologically Latin h:
  
  
  • ⇒ g=j=h
  
  


• elision of terminal r:
  
  
  • comer = [kome] = comed ⇒ r=d
  
  

Though we must omit rule 3.2 since in seseo the voiced realisation of /s/ is [z], not [ð].

---

Diacritics

If we cannot assume identity of diacritical letters, this can be easily achieved with:

• cual=cuál ⇒ a=á


• el=él ⇒ e=é


• si=sí ⇒ i=í


• como=cómo ⇒ o=ó


• tu=tú ⇒ u=ú

ü is slightly trickier, but achievable with some obscure words with alternate orthographies:

• 
  higuela = higüela ⇒ u=ü

---

Relevant links:

• ^{Exception to the Phonetic Rule}

Notes:

• ^{Can also get sh = ch via some nativised loanwords e.g marshalés}

share|improve this answer

edited Aug 17 at 15:31

answered Aug 16 at 18:15

ukemi

6,48921548

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  But are all these actually homophones? Aren't some indeed variations of pronunciations, and as such, all but homophones?
  – Rafael
  Aug 17 at 14:13
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

up vote
4
down vote



accepted

up vote
4
down vote



accepted

This question may have different answers depending on the dialect of Spanish you consider, and which words you include (loanwords etc), and what letters you consider distinct.

The Castilian Case

To start off, let's assume a Castilian accent with distinción, no yeísmo, no non-nativised loanwords (i.e. those that appear in italics in the DLE), and letters with diacritics are not distinct (i.e. á=a, ú=u=ü etc).

When it doesn't appear in the digraph ch, h is silent. Thus, for example:

0. Silent letters

1. ha = /a/ = a ⇒ h=1

Some letters are pronounced identically (in certain contexts), for example:

1. 
   

   Identical sounds

   
   
   
   1. bote = /ˈbote/ = vote ⇒ b=v
   
   
   2. agito = /aˈxito/ = ajito ⇒ g=j
   
   
   3. encima = /enˈθima/ = enzima ⇒ c=z
   
   
   4. cappa = kappa ⇒ c=k
   
   
   5. samurái = samuray ⇒ i=y
   
   


2. 
   

   Old orthographies

   
   
   
   1. quilo = kilo ⇒ qu=k
   
   
   2. México = Méjico ⇒ x=j
   
   
   3. huincha = wincha ⇒ hu=w ⇒ u=w (via 0.1)
   
   
   4. 
      wolframio = volframio ⇒ w=v
   
   
   5. 
      cuórum = quorum ⇒ c=q ^{(assuming inclusion of Italic Latin words)}
   
   


3. 
   

   Alophonic quirks

   
   
   
   1. 
      icnita = ignita ⇒ c=g ^{(/k/ voiced approximant [ɣ] before a voiced consonant)}
   
   
   2. yezgo = yedgo ⇒ z=d ^{(/θ/ voiced [ð] before a voiced consonant)}
   
   
   3. zafra = [ˈθavɾa] ~ [ˈθaβɾa] = zabra ⇒ f=b ^{(/f/ voiced [v] before a voiced consonant, [v] allophone of /b/) (e.g. afgano = [avˈgano])}
   
   
   4. excusa = escusa ⇒ x=s
   
   
   5. 
      envasar = embasar ⇒ nv=mb ⇒ n=m (via 1.1)
   
   


4. 
   

   Greek simplified consonant clusters

   
   
   
   1. 
      gneis = neis ⇒ gn=n ⇒ g=1
   
   
   2. 
      psicología = sicología ⇒ ps=s ⇒ p=1
   
   
   3. 
      cneoráceo = neoráceo ⇒ cn=n ⇒ c=1
   
   
   4. 
      mnemónica = nemónica ⇒ mn=n ⇒ m=1
   
   


5. 
   

   Other reduced consonant clusters

   
   
   
   1. 
      postmoderno = posmoderno ⇒ post=pos ⇒ t=1
   
   
   2. 
      substancia = sustancia ⇒ subs=sus ⇒ b=1
      
      
      • (1.1) ⇒ 1=v, (2.4) ⇒ 1=w, (2.3) ⇒ 1=u ⇒ qu=q, (2.1) ⇒ q=k
      
      
   
   
   3. 
      detall = detal ⇒ ll=l ⇒ l=1
      
      
      • l=1, (7.2) ⇒ i=1 ⇒ ni=n, (7.1) ⇒ n=ñ
      
      
   
   
   4. 
      mixtificar = mistificar ⇒ x=s
   
   
   5. desrabar = derrabar^{1 2 (p.50)} ⇒ sr=rr ⇒ s=r ^{Elision of 's' in consonant cluster 'sr' and fricative realisation of 'r' i.e. 'r' > 'rr' (fricative interpreted by native speakers as allophonic to trill, never to tap)}
   
   


6. 
   

   Hiatus > diphthong

   
   
   
   1. noroeste = norueste ⇒ o=u ^{(e.g. toalla > [ˈtwaja])}
   
   
   2. óleo = olio ⇒ i=e ^{(e.g. beatitud > [bʝatiˈtuð])}
   
   


7. 
   

   Palatals with alt. orthographies

   
   
   
   1. 
      pergeño = pergenio ⇒ ñ=ni ^{(/n/ palatal before /j/)}
   
   
   2. buganvilla = buganvilia ⇒ ll=li ⇒ l=i
   
   

Finally we deal with the element a here:

8. 
   Synalepha of compound words
   
   
   1. 
      contraalmirante = contralmirante ⇒ aa=a ⇒ a=1 ^{(see also bezaar > bezar etc)}
   
   

Thus, all letters a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,ñ,o,p,q,r,s,t,u,v,w,x,y,z are equivalent to the identity, and our group is the trivial group on one element.

---

Andalusia

Many of these relationships can be achieved without such obscure examples if we instead consider the dialects of Andalusia:

• 
  seseo
  
  
  • casa = caza ⇒ s=z
  
  


• 
  yeísmo
  
  
  • arrollo = arroyo ⇒ ll=y
  
  


• aspirated terminal "s" and where /x/ is realised as [h]
  
  
  • as = aj ⇒ s=j
  
  


• elision of d:
  
  
  • cnatador = cantaór ⇒ d=1
  
  


• pronunciation of etymologically Latin h:
  
  
  • ⇒ g=j=h
  
  


• elision of terminal r:
  
  
  • comer = [kome] = comed ⇒ r=d
  
  

Though we must omit rule 3.2 since in seseo the voiced realisation of /s/ is [z], not [ð].

---

Diacritics

If we cannot assume identity of diacritical letters, this can be easily achieved with:

• cual=cuál ⇒ a=á


• el=él ⇒ e=é


• si=sí ⇒ i=í


• como=cómo ⇒ o=ó


• tu=tú ⇒ u=ú

ü is slightly trickier, but achievable with some obscure words with alternate orthographies:

• 
  higuela = higüela ⇒ u=ü

---

Relevant links:

• ^{Exception to the Phonetic Rule}

Notes:

• ^{Can also get sh = ch via some nativised loanwords e.g marshalés}

share|improve this answer

edited Aug 17 at 15:31

answered Aug 16 at 18:15

ukemi

6,48921548

This question may have different answers depending on the dialect of Spanish you consider, and which words you include (loanwords etc), and what letters you consider distinct.

The Castilian Case

To start off, let's assume a Castilian accent with distinción, no yeísmo, no non-nativised loanwords (i.e. those that appear in italics in the DLE), and letters with diacritics are not distinct (i.e. á=a, ú=u=ü etc).

When it doesn't appear in the digraph ch, h is silent. Thus, for example:

0. Silent letters

1. ha = /a/ = a ⇒ h=1

Some letters are pronounced identically (in certain contexts), for example:

1. 
   

   Identical sounds

   
   
   
   1. bote = /ˈbote/ = vote ⇒ b=v
   
   
   2. agito = /aˈxito/ = ajito ⇒ g=j
   
   
   3. encima = /enˈθima/ = enzima ⇒ c=z
   
   
   4. cappa = kappa ⇒ c=k
   
   
   5. samurái = samuray ⇒ i=y
   
   


2. 
   

   Old orthographies

   
   
   
   1. quilo = kilo ⇒ qu=k
   
   
   2. México = Méjico ⇒ x=j
   
   
   3. huincha = wincha ⇒ hu=w ⇒ u=w (via 0.1)
   
   
   4. 
      wolframio = volframio ⇒ w=v
   
   
   5. 
      cuórum = quorum ⇒ c=q ^{(assuming inclusion of Italic Latin words)}
   
   


3. 
   

   Alophonic quirks

   
   
   
   1. 
      icnita = ignita ⇒ c=g ^{(/k/ voiced approximant [ɣ] before a voiced consonant)}
   
   
   2. yezgo = yedgo ⇒ z=d ^{(/θ/ voiced [ð] before a voiced consonant)}
   
   
   3. zafra = [ˈθavɾa] ~ [ˈθaβɾa] = zabra ⇒ f=b ^{(/f/ voiced [v] before a voiced consonant, [v] allophone of /b/) (e.g. afgano = [avˈgano])}
   
   
   4. excusa = escusa ⇒ x=s
   
   
   5. 
      envasar = embasar ⇒ nv=mb ⇒ n=m (via 1.1)
   
   


4. 
   

   Greek simplified consonant clusters

   
   
   
   1. 
      gneis = neis ⇒ gn=n ⇒ g=1
   
   
   2. 
      psicología = sicología ⇒ ps=s ⇒ p=1
   
   
   3. 
      cneoráceo = neoráceo ⇒ cn=n ⇒ c=1
   
   
   4. 
      mnemónica = nemónica ⇒ mn=n ⇒ m=1
   
   


5. 
   

   Other reduced consonant clusters

   
   
   
   1. 
      postmoderno = posmoderno ⇒ post=pos ⇒ t=1
   
   
   2. 
      substancia = sustancia ⇒ subs=sus ⇒ b=1
      
      
      • (1.1) ⇒ 1=v, (2.4) ⇒ 1=w, (2.3) ⇒ 1=u ⇒ qu=q, (2.1) ⇒ q=k
      
      
   
   
   3. 
      detall = detal ⇒ ll=l ⇒ l=1
      
      
      • l=1, (7.2) ⇒ i=1 ⇒ ni=n, (7.1) ⇒ n=ñ
      
      
   
   
   4. 
      mixtificar = mistificar ⇒ x=s
   
   
   5. desrabar = derrabar^{1 2 (p.50)} ⇒ sr=rr ⇒ s=r ^{Elision of 's' in consonant cluster 'sr' and fricative realisation of 'r' i.e. 'r' > 'rr' (fricative interpreted by native speakers as allophonic to trill, never to tap)}
   
   


6. 
   

   Hiatus > diphthong

   
   
   
   1. noroeste = norueste ⇒ o=u ^{(e.g. toalla > [ˈtwaja])}
   
   
   2. óleo = olio ⇒ i=e ^{(e.g. beatitud > [bʝatiˈtuð])}
   
   


7. 
   

   Palatals with alt. orthographies

   
   
   
   1. 
      pergeño = pergenio ⇒ ñ=ni ^{(/n/ palatal before /j/)}
   
   
   2. buganvilla = buganvilia ⇒ ll=li ⇒ l=i
   
   

Finally we deal with the element a here:

8. 
   Synalepha of compound words
   
   
   1. 
      contraalmirante = contralmirante ⇒ aa=a ⇒ a=1 ^{(see also bezaar > bezar etc)}
   
   

Thus, all letters a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,ñ,o,p,q,r,s,t,u,v,w,x,y,z are equivalent to the identity, and our group is the trivial group on one element.

---

Andalusia

Many of these relationships can be achieved without such obscure examples if we instead consider the dialects of Andalusia:

• 
  seseo
  
  
  • casa = caza ⇒ s=z
  
  


• 
  yeísmo
  
  
  • arrollo = arroyo ⇒ ll=y
  
  


• aspirated terminal "s" and where /x/ is realised as [h]
  
  
  • as = aj ⇒ s=j
  
  


• elision of d:
  
  
  • cnatador = cantaór ⇒ d=1
  
  


• pronunciation of etymologically Latin h:
  
  
  • ⇒ g=j=h
  
  


• elision of terminal r:
  
  
  • comer = [kome] = comed ⇒ r=d
  
  

Though we must omit rule 3.2 since in seseo the voiced realisation of /s/ is [z], not [ð].

---

Diacritics

If we cannot assume identity of diacritical letters, this can be easily achieved with:

• cual=cuál ⇒ a=á


• el=él ⇒ e=é


• si=sí ⇒ i=í


• como=cómo ⇒ o=ó


• tu=tú ⇒ u=ú

ü is slightly trickier, but achievable with some obscure words with alternate orthographies:

• 
  higuela = higüela ⇒ u=ü

---

Relevant links:

• ^{Exception to the Phonetic Rule}

Notes:

• ^{Can also get sh = ch via some nativised loanwords e.g marshalés}

share|improve this answer

edited Aug 17 at 15:31

answered Aug 16 at 18:15

ukemi

6,48921548

share|improve this answer

share|improve this answer

edited Aug 17 at 15:31

edited Aug 17 at 15:31

edited Aug 17 at 15:31

answered Aug 16 at 18:15

ukemi

6,48921548

answered Aug 16 at 18:15

ukemi

6,48921548

answered Aug 16 at 18:15

ukemi

6,48921548

6,48921548

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  But are all these actually homophones? Aren't some indeed variations of pronunciations, and as such, all but homophones?
  – Rafael
  Aug 17 at 14:13
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  But are all these actually homophones? Aren't some indeed variations of pronunciations, and as such, all but homophones?
  – Rafael
  Aug 17 at 14:13
  

  
  
  
  

1

1

But are all these actually homophones? Aren't some indeed variations of pronunciations, and as such, all but homophones?
– Rafael
Aug 17 at 14:13

But are all these actually homophones? Aren't some indeed variations of pronunciations, and as such, all but homophones?
– Rafael
Aug 17 at 14:13

add a comment | 

up vote
2
down vote

It may be easier to consider this in the reverse. Which letters could be 1?

Let's begin with the vowels:

A, E, O, and U can only be written as such, and are always pronounced (except for the u in the sequence [gq][ue][iy]). Removing any of them will change the pronunciation of the word. While I next to another vowel and Y are indeed generally equivalent, they are always pronounced, and again removing them will alter the pronunciation. In practice, it may be possible to consider words like cree to give E a score of 1, but in even minimally formal speech, each E is distinguished and thus cree is distinct from cre. So no vowels can have a score of 1.

For consonants, we'd need to find sequences with equivalent pronunciations. That would require a doubled letter or in someway finding letter sequences with equivalent pronunciations.

The only doubled consonants are cc, ll, nn, rr, each of which represent different sounds than an equivalently positioned c, l, n, r). Imported words like pizza may have special rules, but I'm not sure we can derive much from them, as there's no way to predict the rule that the reduced version would follow. Thus C/L/N/R cannot score a 1.

The only letter sequences with equivalent pronunciations in all dialects are B/V but since they are never found next to each other that doesn't change anything (and if they were, like with nn they'd be split between syllables), and N/M and X/J in certain positions. Dialectically, there are other possibilities (S/Z/C, LL/Y, D/Z, D/T, H/J, X/S, S/J) but they will all be beholden to the same issues and won't allow a score of 1.

H can be removed without varying the pronunciation in words in which it is not preceded by a C. Thus it can score a 1. Dialectically, an H and and a J could potentially have the same pronunciation, so in some areas, if I'm understanding the examples on the other page correctly, J could then equal 1 by extension of J=H, but if and only if those letters appear in separate distinct words. But that requires relying on a specific dialect, and isn't generalizable. But using that one and other dialects, we could maybe extend it to a few more letters, as sometimes S can sound like J, and thence to Z and C. But I think that'd be the extent of it.

All other consonants with will only appear once in words, with no phonetic substitution possible, and thus their removal necessitates scores distinct from 1.

share|improve this answer

edited Aug 16 at 14:41

answered Aug 16 at 14:32

guifa

23.8k13068

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  Just a note, the combination 'bv' does occasionally appear: obvención, obvencional, obviable, obviamente, obviar, obviedad, obvio, subvención, subvencionable, subvencionar, subvenio, subvenir, subversión, subversivo, subversor, subvertir
  – ukemi
  Aug 16 at 16:03
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @ukemi ah, yes, I didn't think of prefixation. Here the removal of one will modify the pronunciation but with even less of a distinction as cree -> cre, although technically both /b/ are pronounced (consider how tiny the difference between the sequences obio, obvio and obpio. There is a difference, but in rapid speech it may be imperceptible). In that case, we may consider B=V=1 and possibly even P=1, but I don't think further extension is possible.
  – guifa
  Aug 16 at 16:17
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  Guifa do you agree with ukemi?
  – BCLC
  Aug 17 at 11:09
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

up vote
2
down vote

It may be easier to consider this in the reverse. Which letters could be 1?

Let's begin with the vowels:

A, E, O, and U can only be written as such, and are always pronounced (except for the u in the sequence [gq][ue][iy]). Removing any of them will change the pronunciation of the word. While I next to another vowel and Y are indeed generally equivalent, they are always pronounced, and again removing them will alter the pronunciation. In practice, it may be possible to consider words like cree to give E a score of 1, but in even minimally formal speech, each E is distinguished and thus cree is distinct from cre. So no vowels can have a score of 1.

For consonants, we'd need to find sequences with equivalent pronunciations. That would require a doubled letter or in someway finding letter sequences with equivalent pronunciations.

The only doubled consonants are cc, ll, nn, rr, each of which represent different sounds than an equivalently positioned c, l, n, r). Imported words like pizza may have special rules, but I'm not sure we can derive much from them, as there's no way to predict the rule that the reduced version would follow. Thus C/L/N/R cannot score a 1.

The only letter sequences with equivalent pronunciations in all dialects are B/V but since they are never found next to each other that doesn't change anything (and if they were, like with nn they'd be split between syllables), and N/M and X/J in certain positions. Dialectically, there are other possibilities (S/Z/C, LL/Y, D/Z, D/T, H/J, X/S, S/J) but they will all be beholden to the same issues and won't allow a score of 1.

H can be removed without varying the pronunciation in words in which it is not preceded by a C. Thus it can score a 1. Dialectically, an H and and a J could potentially have the same pronunciation, so in some areas, if I'm understanding the examples on the other page correctly, J could then equal 1 by extension of J=H, but if and only if those letters appear in separate distinct words. But that requires relying on a specific dialect, and isn't generalizable. But using that one and other dialects, we could maybe extend it to a few more letters, as sometimes S can sound like J, and thence to Z and C. But I think that'd be the extent of it.

All other consonants with will only appear once in words, with no phonetic substitution possible, and thus their removal necessitates scores distinct from 1.

share|improve this answer

edited Aug 16 at 14:41

answered Aug 16 at 14:32

guifa

23.8k13068

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  Just a note, the combination 'bv' does occasionally appear: obvención, obvencional, obviable, obviamente, obviar, obviedad, obvio, subvención, subvencionable, subvencionar, subvenio, subvenir, subversión, subversivo, subversor, subvertir
  – ukemi
  Aug 16 at 16:03
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @ukemi ah, yes, I didn't think of prefixation. Here the removal of one will modify the pronunciation but with even less of a distinction as cree -> cre, although technically both /b/ are pronounced (consider how tiny the difference between the sequences obio, obvio and obpio. There is a difference, but in rapid speech it may be imperceptible). In that case, we may consider B=V=1 and possibly even P=1, but I don't think further extension is possible.
  – guifa
  Aug 16 at 16:17
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  Guifa do you agree with ukemi?
  – BCLC
  Aug 17 at 11:09
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

up vote
2
down vote

up vote
2
down vote

It may be easier to consider this in the reverse. Which letters could be 1?

Let's begin with the vowels:

A, E, O, and U can only be written as such, and are always pronounced (except for the u in the sequence [gq][ue][iy]). Removing any of them will change the pronunciation of the word. While I next to another vowel and Y are indeed generally equivalent, they are always pronounced, and again removing them will alter the pronunciation. In practice, it may be possible to consider words like cree to give E a score of 1, but in even minimally formal speech, each E is distinguished and thus cree is distinct from cre. So no vowels can have a score of 1.

For consonants, we'd need to find sequences with equivalent pronunciations. That would require a doubled letter or in someway finding letter sequences with equivalent pronunciations.

The only doubled consonants are cc, ll, nn, rr, each of which represent different sounds than an equivalently positioned c, l, n, r). Imported words like pizza may have special rules, but I'm not sure we can derive much from them, as there's no way to predict the rule that the reduced version would follow. Thus C/L/N/R cannot score a 1.

The only letter sequences with equivalent pronunciations in all dialects are B/V but since they are never found next to each other that doesn't change anything (and if they were, like with nn they'd be split between syllables), and N/M and X/J in certain positions. Dialectically, there are other possibilities (S/Z/C, LL/Y, D/Z, D/T, H/J, X/S, S/J) but they will all be beholden to the same issues and won't allow a score of 1.

H can be removed without varying the pronunciation in words in which it is not preceded by a C. Thus it can score a 1. Dialectically, an H and and a J could potentially have the same pronunciation, so in some areas, if I'm understanding the examples on the other page correctly, J could then equal 1 by extension of J=H, but if and only if those letters appear in separate distinct words. But that requires relying on a specific dialect, and isn't generalizable. But using that one and other dialects, we could maybe extend it to a few more letters, as sometimes S can sound like J, and thence to Z and C. But I think that'd be the extent of it.

All other consonants with will only appear once in words, with no phonetic substitution possible, and thus their removal necessitates scores distinct from 1.

share|improve this answer

edited Aug 16 at 14:41

answered Aug 16 at 14:32

guifa

23.8k13068

It may be easier to consider this in the reverse. Which letters could be 1?

Let's begin with the vowels:

A, E, O, and U can only be written as such, and are always pronounced (except for the u in the sequence [gq][ue][iy]). Removing any of them will change the pronunciation of the word. While I next to another vowel and Y are indeed generally equivalent, they are always pronounced, and again removing them will alter the pronunciation. In practice, it may be possible to consider words like cree to give E a score of 1, but in even minimally formal speech, each E is distinguished and thus cree is distinct from cre. So no vowels can have a score of 1.

For consonants, we'd need to find sequences with equivalent pronunciations. That would require a doubled letter or in someway finding letter sequences with equivalent pronunciations.

The only doubled consonants are cc, ll, nn, rr, each of which represent different sounds than an equivalently positioned c, l, n, r). Imported words like pizza may have special rules, but I'm not sure we can derive much from them, as there's no way to predict the rule that the reduced version would follow. Thus C/L/N/R cannot score a 1.

The only letter sequences with equivalent pronunciations in all dialects are B/V but since they are never found next to each other that doesn't change anything (and if they were, like with nn they'd be split between syllables), and N/M and X/J in certain positions. Dialectically, there are other possibilities (S/Z/C, LL/Y, D/Z, D/T, H/J, X/S, S/J) but they will all be beholden to the same issues and won't allow a score of 1.

H can be removed without varying the pronunciation in words in which it is not preceded by a C. Thus it can score a 1. Dialectically, an H and and a J could potentially have the same pronunciation, so in some areas, if I'm understanding the examples on the other page correctly, J could then equal 1 by extension of J=H, but if and only if those letters appear in separate distinct words. But that requires relying on a specific dialect, and isn't generalizable. But using that one and other dialects, we could maybe extend it to a few more letters, as sometimes S can sound like J, and thence to Z and C. But I think that'd be the extent of it.

All other consonants with will only appear once in words, with no phonetic substitution possible, and thus their removal necessitates scores distinct from 1.

share|improve this answer

edited Aug 16 at 14:41

answered Aug 16 at 14:32

guifa

23.8k13068

share|improve this answer

share|improve this answer

edited Aug 16 at 14:41

edited Aug 16 at 14:41

edited Aug 16 at 14:41

answered Aug 16 at 14:32

guifa

23.8k13068

answered Aug 16 at 14:32

guifa

23.8k13068

answered Aug 16 at 14:32

guifa

23.8k13068

23.8k13068

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  Just a note, the combination 'bv' does occasionally appear: obvención, obvencional, obviable, obviamente, obviar, obviedad, obvio, subvención, subvencionable, subvencionar, subvenio, subvenir, subversión, subversivo, subversor, subvertir
  – ukemi
  Aug 16 at 16:03
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @ukemi ah, yes, I didn't think of prefixation. Here the removal of one will modify the pronunciation but with even less of a distinction as cree -> cre, although technically both /b/ are pronounced (consider how tiny the difference between the sequences obio, obvio and obpio. There is a difference, but in rapid speech it may be imperceptible). In that case, we may consider B=V=1 and possibly even P=1, but I don't think further extension is possible.
  – guifa
  Aug 16 at 16:17
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  Guifa do you agree with ukemi?
  – BCLC
  Aug 17 at 11:09
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  Just a note, the combination 'bv' does occasionally appear: obvención, obvencional, obviable, obviamente, obviar, obviedad, obvio, subvención, subvencionable, subvencionar, subvenio, subvenir, subversión, subversivo, subversor, subvertir
  – ukemi
  Aug 16 at 16:03
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  @ukemi ah, yes, I didn't think of prefixation. Here the removal of one will modify the pronunciation but with even less of a distinction as cree -> cre, although technically both /b/ are pronounced (consider how tiny the difference between the sequences obio, obvio and obpio. There is a difference, but in rapid speech it may be imperceptible). In that case, we may consider B=V=1 and possibly even P=1, but I don't think further extension is possible.
  – guifa
  Aug 16 at 16:17
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  Guifa do you agree with ukemi?
  – BCLC
  Aug 17 at 11:09
  

  
  
  
  

Just a note, the combination 'bv' does occasionally appear: obvención, obvencional, obviable, obviamente, obviar, obviedad, obvio, subvención, subvencionable, subvencionar, subvenio, subvenir, subversión, subversivo, subversor, subvertir
– ukemi
Aug 16 at 16:03

Just a note, the combination 'bv' does occasionally appear: obvención, obvencional, obviable, obviamente, obviar, obviedad, obvio, subvención, subvencionable, subvencionar, subvenio, subvenir, subversión, subversivo, subversor, subvertir
– ukemi
Aug 16 at 16:03

@ukemi ah, yes, I didn't think of prefixation. Here the removal of one will modify the pronunciation but with even less of a distinction as cree -> cre, although technically both /b/ are pronounced (consider how tiny the difference between the sequences obio, obvio and obpio. There is a difference, but in rapid speech it may be imperceptible). In that case, we may consider B=V=1 and possibly even P=1, but I don't think further extension is possible.
– guifa
Aug 16 at 16:17

@ukemi ah, yes, I didn't think of prefixation. Here the removal of one will modify the pronunciation but with even less of a distinction as cree -> cre, although technically both /b/ are pronounced (consider how tiny the difference between the sequences obio, obvio and obpio. There is a difference, but in rapid speech it may be imperceptible). In that case, we may consider B=V=1 and possibly even P=1, but I don't think further extension is possible.
– guifa
Aug 16 at 16:17

Guifa do you agree with ukemi?
– BCLC
Aug 17 at 11:09

Guifa do you agree with ukemi?
– BCLC
Aug 17 at 11:09

add a comment | 

 

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