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Mors mea or mors meī?
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If I wanted to talk about "the death of Caesar", I wouldn't think twice about using the genitive (mors Caesaris). But if you asked me what sort of genitive this is—possessive, partitive, or objective—I wouldn't be able to tell you.
These distinctions seldom actually matter in practice, but there's one important case when they do: with personal pronouns. The possessive genitive uses the form meus/tuus -a -um, while all other genitives use the form meī/tuī.
In particular, would "my death" be mors mea, or mors meī? Equivalently, would "your death" be mors tua, or mors tuī?
This came up in the translation of a tattoo.
pronomina genetivus possessive-pronouns personal-pronouns
asked Aug 24 at 17:02
Draconis
12.1k11649
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up vote
6
down vote
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If I wanted to talk about "the death of Caesar", I wouldn't think twice about using the genitive (mors Caesaris). But if you asked me what sort of genitive this is—possessive, partitive, or objective—I wouldn't be able to tell you.
These distinctions seldom actually matter in practice, but there's one important case when they do: with personal pronouns. The possessive genitive uses the form meus/tuus -a -um, while all other genitives use the form meī/tuī.
In particular, would "my death" be mors mea, or mors meī? Equivalently, would "your death" be mors tua, or mors tuī?
This came up in the translation of a tattoo.
pronomina genetivus possessive-pronouns personal-pronouns
asked Aug 24 at 17:02
Draconis
12.1k11649
Here is a similar question: latin.stackexchange.com/questions/1306/…
– brianpck
Aug 24 at 20:43
@brianpck Yep, I actually linked that one in the question! That one's about when to use meī with a possessive/subjective, though, while this one's about whether a specific instance counts as possessive/subjective or not.
– Draconis
Aug 24 at 22:27
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
favorite
up vote
6
down vote
favorite
If I wanted to talk about "the death of Caesar", I wouldn't think twice about using the genitive (mors Caesaris). But if you asked me what sort of genitive this is—possessive, partitive, or objective—I wouldn't be able to tell you.
These distinctions seldom actually matter in practice, but there's one important case when they do: with personal pronouns. The possessive genitive uses the form meus/tuus -a -um, while all other genitives use the form meī/tuī.
In particular, would "my death" be mors mea, or mors meī? Equivalently, would "your death" be mors tua, or mors tuī?
This came up in the translation of a tattoo.
pronomina genetivus possessive-pronouns personal-pronouns
asked Aug 24 at 17:02
Draconis
12.1k11649
If I wanted to talk about "the death of Caesar", I wouldn't think twice about using the genitive (mors Caesaris). But if you asked me what sort of genitive this is—possessive, partitive, or objective—I wouldn't be able to tell you.
These distinctions seldom actually matter in practice, but there's one important case when they do: with personal pronouns. The possessive genitive uses the form meus/tuus -a -um, while all other genitives use the form meī/tuī.
In particular, would "my death" be mors mea, or mors meī? Equivalently, would "your death" be mors tua, or mors tuī?
This came up in the translation of a tattoo.
pronomina genetivus possessive-pronouns personal-pronouns
asked Aug 24 at 17:02
Draconis
12.1k11649
asked Aug 24 at 17:02
Draconis
12.1k11649
asked Aug 24 at 17:02
Draconis
12.1k11649
asked Aug 24 at 17:02
Draconis
12.1k11649
12.1k11649
Here is a similar question: latin.stackexchange.com/questions/1306/…
– brianpck
Aug 24 at 20:43
@brianpck Yep, I actually linked that one in the question! That one's about when to use meī with a possessive/subjective, though, while this one's about whether a specific instance counts as possessive/subjective or not.
– Draconis
Aug 24 at 22:27
add a comment |Â
Here is a similar question: latin.stackexchange.com/questions/1306/…
– brianpck
Aug 24 at 20:43
@brianpck Yep, I actually linked that one in the question! That one's about when to use meī with a possessive/subjective, though, while this one's about whether a specific instance counts as possessive/subjective or not.
– Draconis
Aug 24 at 22:27
Here is a similar question: latin.stackexchange.com/questions/1306/…
– brianpck
Aug 24 at 20:43
Here is a similar question: latin.stackexchange.com/questions/1306/…
– brianpck
Aug 24 at 20:43
@brianpck Yep, I actually linked that one in the question! That one's about when to use meī with a possessive/subjective, though, while this one's about whether a specific instance counts as possessive/subjective or not.
– Draconis
Aug 24 at 22:27
@brianpck Yep, I actually linked that one in the question! That one's about when to use meī with a possessive/subjective, though, while this one's about whether a specific instance counts as possessive/subjective or not.
– Draconis
Aug 24 at 22:27
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
8
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accepted
Another use of the genitive that you've left out is subjective genitive, which is what this is. These are discussed in, e.g., Gildersleeve and Lodge, Latin grammar §363. Allen and Greenough, New Latin grammar §243, Note 1 treats them, not unreasonably, as a species of possessive genitive (where what is 'owned' is an action or state of being).
Death implies the action of dying, and Caesar is the one who performs that action here; he's like the subject. For the personal pronouns (1st person, 2nd person, and 3rd person reflexive), subjective relations, like possessive relations, use the possessive adjectives. So 'my death' = mors mea.
answered Aug 24 at 17:18
cnread
8,0721923
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up vote
4
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An unlearned but hopefully useful answer. Searching a large corpus of texts gives:
mors mea: 2,612 hits
mors mei: 26 hits
mors tua: 4,821 hits
mors tui: 80 hits
mors sua: 969 hits
mors sui: 49 hits
As brianpck pointed out in the comments, the low number of hits for the mei and related cases does not necessarily mean that this is a valid case. As he points out, these two words could appear in a different grammatical sense, e.g. with mei being an adjective and not a pronoun, which is the sole interest of the question. I'm still of the opinion that the dramatic difference in occurrence is helpful as supportive evidence to cnread's answer (and not alone).
answered Aug 24 at 18:57
luchonacho
3,5143841
5
Unfortunately, this is problematic on two levels: (1) the search results aren't filtered to just Latin, (2) more to the point, I guarantee that 99% (if not 100%) of the mei/tui/sui results are possessive adjectives, not pronouns. For instance, the first Latin result for mors mei reads mors mei praesulis.
– brianpck
Aug 24 at 20:41
@brianpck (1) solved. I made the proportions even stronger though. Regarding (2), even if filtering for pronouns case only, would the huge differences in hits make the answer to reverse very unlikely?
– luchonacho
Aug 25 at 7:54
My point was actually that the huge difference should be even more huge (i.e. verging on 0 hits) for pronouns used in this way. In other words, mors mei means "the death of my...", not "the death of me."
– brianpck
Aug 25 at 17:15
1
Correct, but it's very easy to interpret this answer as giving evidence that "mors mei" is uncommon but admissible, when in fact it is never used for "my death."
– brianpck
Aug 26 at 17:15
1
@brianpck oh, I understand now. Yes, you are totally correct on that. I will update to point this out.
– luchonacho
Aug 26 at 17:24
 |Â
show 1 more comment
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
8
down vote
accepted
Another use of the genitive that you've left out is subjective genitive, which is what this is. These are discussed in, e.g., Gildersleeve and Lodge, Latin grammar §363. Allen and Greenough, New Latin grammar §243, Note 1 treats them, not unreasonably, as a species of possessive genitive (where what is 'owned' is an action or state of being).
Death implies the action of dying, and Caesar is the one who performs that action here; he's like the subject. For the personal pronouns (1st person, 2nd person, and 3rd person reflexive), subjective relations, like possessive relations, use the possessive adjectives. So 'my death' = mors mea.
answered Aug 24 at 17:18
cnread
8,0721923
add a comment |Â
up vote
8
down vote
accepted
Another use of the genitive that you've left out is subjective genitive, which is what this is. These are discussed in, e.g., Gildersleeve and Lodge, Latin grammar §363. Allen and Greenough, New Latin grammar §243, Note 1 treats them, not unreasonably, as a species of possessive genitive (where what is 'owned' is an action or state of being).
Death implies the action of dying, and Caesar is the one who performs that action here; he's like the subject. For the personal pronouns (1st person, 2nd person, and 3rd person reflexive), subjective relations, like possessive relations, use the possessive adjectives. So 'my death' = mors mea.
answered Aug 24 at 17:18
cnread
8,0721923
add a comment |Â
up vote
8
down vote
accepted
up vote
8
down vote
accepted
Another use of the genitive that you've left out is subjective genitive, which is what this is. These are discussed in, e.g., Gildersleeve and Lodge, Latin grammar §363. Allen and Greenough, New Latin grammar §243, Note 1 treats them, not unreasonably, as a species of possessive genitive (where what is 'owned' is an action or state of being).
Death implies the action of dying, and Caesar is the one who performs that action here; he's like the subject. For the personal pronouns (1st person, 2nd person, and 3rd person reflexive), subjective relations, like possessive relations, use the possessive adjectives. So 'my death' = mors mea.
answered Aug 24 at 17:18
cnread
8,0721923
Another use of the genitive that you've left out is subjective genitive, which is what this is. These are discussed in, e.g., Gildersleeve and Lodge, Latin grammar §363. Allen and Greenough, New Latin grammar §243, Note 1 treats them, not unreasonably, as a species of possessive genitive (where what is 'owned' is an action or state of being).
Death implies the action of dying, and Caesar is the one who performs that action here; he's like the subject. For the personal pronouns (1st person, 2nd person, and 3rd person reflexive), subjective relations, like possessive relations, use the possessive adjectives. So 'my death' = mors mea.
answered Aug 24 at 17:18
cnread
8,0721923
answered Aug 24 at 17:18
cnread
8,0721923
answered Aug 24 at 17:18
cnread
8,0721923
answered Aug 24 at 17:18
cnread
8,0721923
8,0721923
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
An unlearned but hopefully useful answer. Searching a large corpus of texts gives:
mors mea: 2,612 hits
mors mei: 26 hits
mors tua: 4,821 hits
mors tui: 80 hits
mors sua: 969 hits
mors sui: 49 hits
As brianpck pointed out in the comments, the low number of hits for the mei and related cases does not necessarily mean that this is a valid case. As he points out, these two words could appear in a different grammatical sense, e.g. with mei being an adjective and not a pronoun, which is the sole interest of the question. I'm still of the opinion that the dramatic difference in occurrence is helpful as supportive evidence to cnread's answer (and not alone).
answered Aug 24 at 18:57
luchonacho
3,5143841
5
Unfortunately, this is problematic on two levels: (1) the search results aren't filtered to just Latin, (2) more to the point, I guarantee that 99% (if not 100%) of the mei/tui/sui results are possessive adjectives, not pronouns. For instance, the first Latin result for mors mei reads mors mei praesulis.
– brianpck
Aug 24 at 20:41
@brianpck (1) solved. I made the proportions even stronger though. Regarding (2), even if filtering for pronouns case only, would the huge differences in hits make the answer to reverse very unlikely?
– luchonacho
Aug 25 at 7:54
My point was actually that the huge difference should be even more huge (i.e. verging on 0 hits) for pronouns used in this way. In other words, mors mei means "the death of my...", not "the death of me."
– brianpck
Aug 25 at 17:15
1
Correct, but it's very easy to interpret this answer as giving evidence that "mors mei" is uncommon but admissible, when in fact it is never used for "my death."
– brianpck
Aug 26 at 17:15
1
@brianpck oh, I understand now. Yes, you are totally correct on that. I will update to point this out.
– luchonacho
Aug 26 at 17:24
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
4
down vote
An unlearned but hopefully useful answer. Searching a large corpus of texts gives:
mors mea: 2,612 hits
mors mei: 26 hits
mors tua: 4,821 hits
mors tui: 80 hits
mors sua: 969 hits
mors sui: 49 hits
As brianpck pointed out in the comments, the low number of hits for the mei and related cases does not necessarily mean that this is a valid case. As he points out, these two words could appear in a different grammatical sense, e.g. with mei being an adjective and not a pronoun, which is the sole interest of the question. I'm still of the opinion that the dramatic difference in occurrence is helpful as supportive evidence to cnread's answer (and not alone).
answered Aug 24 at 18:57
luchonacho
3,5143841
5
Unfortunately, this is problematic on two levels: (1) the search results aren't filtered to just Latin, (2) more to the point, I guarantee that 99% (if not 100%) of the mei/tui/sui results are possessive adjectives, not pronouns. For instance, the first Latin result for mors mei reads mors mei praesulis.
– brianpck
Aug 24 at 20:41
@brianpck (1) solved. I made the proportions even stronger though. Regarding (2), even if filtering for pronouns case only, would the huge differences in hits make the answer to reverse very unlikely?
– luchonacho
Aug 25 at 7:54
My point was actually that the huge difference should be even more huge (i.e. verging on 0 hits) for pronouns used in this way. In other words, mors mei means "the death of my...", not "the death of me."
– brianpck
Aug 25 at 17:15
1
Correct, but it's very easy to interpret this answer as giving evidence that "mors mei" is uncommon but admissible, when in fact it is never used for "my death."
– brianpck
Aug 26 at 17:15
1
@brianpck oh, I understand now. Yes, you are totally correct on that. I will update to point this out.
– luchonacho
Aug 26 at 17:24
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
An unlearned but hopefully useful answer. Searching a large corpus of texts gives:
mors mea: 2,612 hits
mors mei: 26 hits
mors tua: 4,821 hits
mors tui: 80 hits
mors sua: 969 hits
mors sui: 49 hits
As brianpck pointed out in the comments, the low number of hits for the mei and related cases does not necessarily mean that this is a valid case. As he points out, these two words could appear in a different grammatical sense, e.g. with mei being an adjective and not a pronoun, which is the sole interest of the question. I'm still of the opinion that the dramatic difference in occurrence is helpful as supportive evidence to cnread's answer (and not alone).
answered Aug 24 at 18:57
luchonacho
3,5143841
An unlearned but hopefully useful answer. Searching a large corpus of texts gives:
mors mea: 2,612 hits
mors mei: 26 hits
mors tua: 4,821 hits
mors tui: 80 hits
mors sua: 969 hits
mors sui: 49 hits
As brianpck pointed out in the comments, the low number of hits for the mei and related cases does not necessarily mean that this is a valid case. As he points out, these two words could appear in a different grammatical sense, e.g. with mei being an adjective and not a pronoun, which is the sole interest of the question. I'm still of the opinion that the dramatic difference in occurrence is helpful as supportive evidence to cnread's answer (and not alone).
answered Aug 24 at 18:57
luchonacho
3,5143841
edited Aug 26 at 17:28
answered Aug 24 at 18:57
luchonacho
3,5143841
answered Aug 24 at 18:57
luchonacho
3,5143841
answered Aug 24 at 18:57
luchonacho
3,5143841
3,5143841
5
Unfortunately, this is problematic on two levels: (1) the search results aren't filtered to just Latin, (2) more to the point, I guarantee that 99% (if not 100%) of the mei/tui/sui results are possessive adjectives, not pronouns. For instance, the first Latin result for mors mei reads mors mei praesulis.
– brianpck
Aug 24 at 20:41
@brianpck (1) solved. I made the proportions even stronger though. Regarding (2), even if filtering for pronouns case only, would the huge differences in hits make the answer to reverse very unlikely?
– luchonacho
Aug 25 at 7:54
My point was actually that the huge difference should be even more huge (i.e. verging on 0 hits) for pronouns used in this way. In other words, mors mei means "the death of my...", not "the death of me."
– brianpck
Aug 25 at 17:15
1
Correct, but it's very easy to interpret this answer as giving evidence that "mors mei" is uncommon but admissible, when in fact it is never used for "my death."
– brianpck
Aug 26 at 17:15
1
@brianpck oh, I understand now. Yes, you are totally correct on that. I will update to point this out.
– luchonacho
Aug 26 at 17:24
 |Â
show 1 more comment
5
Unfortunately, this is problematic on two levels: (1) the search results aren't filtered to just Latin, (2) more to the point, I guarantee that 99% (if not 100%) of the mei/tui/sui results are possessive adjectives, not pronouns. For instance, the first Latin result for mors mei reads mors mei praesulis.
– brianpck
Aug 24 at 20:41
@brianpck (1) solved. I made the proportions even stronger though. Regarding (2), even if filtering for pronouns case only, would the huge differences in hits make the answer to reverse very unlikely?
– luchonacho
Aug 25 at 7:54
My point was actually that the huge difference should be even more huge (i.e. verging on 0 hits) for pronouns used in this way. In other words, mors mei means "the death of my...", not "the death of me."
– brianpck
Aug 25 at 17:15
1
Correct, but it's very easy to interpret this answer as giving evidence that "mors mei" is uncommon but admissible, when in fact it is never used for "my death."
– brianpck
Aug 26 at 17:15
1
@brianpck oh, I understand now. Yes, you are totally correct on that. I will update to point this out.
– luchonacho
Aug 26 at 17:24
5
5
Unfortunately, this is problematic on two levels: (1) the search results aren't filtered to just Latin, (2) more to the point, I guarantee that 99% (if not 100%) of the mei/tui/sui results are possessive adjectives, not pronouns. For instance, the first Latin result for mors mei reads mors mei praesulis.
– brianpck
Aug 24 at 20:41
Unfortunately, this is problematic on two levels: (1) the search results aren't filtered to just Latin, (2) more to the point, I guarantee that 99% (if not 100%) of the mei/tui/sui results are possessive adjectives, not pronouns. For instance, the first Latin result for mors mei reads mors mei praesulis.
– brianpck
Aug 24 at 20:41
@brianpck (1) solved. I made the proportions even stronger though. Regarding (2), even if filtering for pronouns case only, would the huge differences in hits make the answer to reverse very unlikely?
– luchonacho
Aug 25 at 7:54
@brianpck (1) solved. I made the proportions even stronger though. Regarding (2), even if filtering for pronouns case only, would the huge differences in hits make the answer to reverse very unlikely?
– luchonacho
Aug 25 at 7:54
My point was actually that the huge difference should be even more huge (i.e. verging on 0 hits) for pronouns used in this way. In other words, mors mei means "the death of my...", not "the death of me."
– brianpck
Aug 25 at 17:15
My point was actually that the huge difference should be even more huge (i.e. verging on 0 hits) for pronouns used in this way. In other words, mors mei means "the death of my...", not "the death of me."
– brianpck
Aug 25 at 17:15
1
1
Correct, but it's very easy to interpret this answer as giving evidence that "mors mei" is uncommon but admissible, when in fact it is never used for "my death."
– brianpck
Aug 26 at 17:15
Correct, but it's very easy to interpret this answer as giving evidence that "mors mei" is uncommon but admissible, when in fact it is never used for "my death."
– brianpck
Aug 26 at 17:15
1
1
@brianpck oh, I understand now. Yes, you are totally correct on that. I will update to point this out.
– luchonacho
Aug 26 at 17:24
@brianpck oh, I understand now. Yes, you are totally correct on that. I will update to point this out.
– luchonacho
Aug 26 at 17:24
 |Â
show 1 more comment
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Here is a similar question: latin.stackexchange.com/questions/1306/…
– brianpck
Aug 24 at 20:43
@brianpck Yep, I actually linked that one in the question! That one's about when to use meī with a possessive/subjective, though, while this one's about whether a specific instance counts as possessive/subjective or not.
– Draconis
Aug 24 at 22:27