How is somebody without work references supposed to get a job? [closed]

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I am a double major in finance and statistics from UT austin and nobody is even interested in interviewing me for an entry level position in accounting/analysis because I have no work references. My previous jobs have been temp contract jobs where I have been the top performer on my team (unrelated to my field). However my supervisors say for legal reasons they are not allowed to be a work reference. I have several other accomplishments and even picked up coding skills in java/c+/sql and nobody cares about that. Even for a $13/hr entry level position they only care about work references.







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closed as off-topic by Dukeling, gnat, GOATNine, AffableAmbler, The Wandering Dev Manager Aug 31 at 3:57


This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:


  • "Questions require a goal that we can address. Rather than explaining the difficulties of your situation, explain what you want to do to make it better. For more information, see this meta post." – Dukeling, gnat, GOATNine
If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.








  • 1




    For clarification, have you any explicit information indicating that the reason you're not being considered is a lack of references? Like comments from a person making the hiring decision? And are you currently in school or have you graduated?
    – Upper_Case
    Aug 30 at 17:22











  • I have graduated 2 years ago. Yes I have had people specifically tell me an interview would be a waste of time without work references.
    – Matthew Liu
    Aug 30 at 17:30






  • 1




    Possible duplicate of Is having no references necessarily a bad thing? or How do I get references when still in my first job? or What is the purpose of references? or Reference from previous Job or How to decline to provide references for a job offer? or Who is appropriate to use for a reference?
    – Dukeling
    Aug 30 at 17:46






  • 1




    So, you're still listing your experience, but all they will do when called is verify you worked there, and not give a statement that showcases your quality of work? Unfortunately, a lot of places only provide that, so that is not uncommon, for you and for others.
    – thursdaysgeek
    Aug 30 at 18:14






  • 1




    Possible duplicate of Is having no references necessarily a bad thing?
    – AffableAmbler
    Aug 31 at 3:36
















up vote
-1
down vote

favorite












I am a double major in finance and statistics from UT austin and nobody is even interested in interviewing me for an entry level position in accounting/analysis because I have no work references. My previous jobs have been temp contract jobs where I have been the top performer on my team (unrelated to my field). However my supervisors say for legal reasons they are not allowed to be a work reference. I have several other accomplishments and even picked up coding skills in java/c+/sql and nobody cares about that. Even for a $13/hr entry level position they only care about work references.







share|improve this question














closed as off-topic by Dukeling, gnat, GOATNine, AffableAmbler, The Wandering Dev Manager Aug 31 at 3:57


This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:


  • "Questions require a goal that we can address. Rather than explaining the difficulties of your situation, explain what you want to do to make it better. For more information, see this meta post." – Dukeling, gnat, GOATNine
If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.








  • 1




    For clarification, have you any explicit information indicating that the reason you're not being considered is a lack of references? Like comments from a person making the hiring decision? And are you currently in school or have you graduated?
    – Upper_Case
    Aug 30 at 17:22











  • I have graduated 2 years ago. Yes I have had people specifically tell me an interview would be a waste of time without work references.
    – Matthew Liu
    Aug 30 at 17:30






  • 1




    Possible duplicate of Is having no references necessarily a bad thing? or How do I get references when still in my first job? or What is the purpose of references? or Reference from previous Job or How to decline to provide references for a job offer? or Who is appropriate to use for a reference?
    – Dukeling
    Aug 30 at 17:46






  • 1




    So, you're still listing your experience, but all they will do when called is verify you worked there, and not give a statement that showcases your quality of work? Unfortunately, a lot of places only provide that, so that is not uncommon, for you and for others.
    – thursdaysgeek
    Aug 30 at 18:14






  • 1




    Possible duplicate of Is having no references necessarily a bad thing?
    – AffableAmbler
    Aug 31 at 3:36












up vote
-1
down vote

favorite









up vote
-1
down vote

favorite











I am a double major in finance and statistics from UT austin and nobody is even interested in interviewing me for an entry level position in accounting/analysis because I have no work references. My previous jobs have been temp contract jobs where I have been the top performer on my team (unrelated to my field). However my supervisors say for legal reasons they are not allowed to be a work reference. I have several other accomplishments and even picked up coding skills in java/c+/sql and nobody cares about that. Even for a $13/hr entry level position they only care about work references.







share|improve this question














I am a double major in finance and statistics from UT austin and nobody is even interested in interviewing me for an entry level position in accounting/analysis because I have no work references. My previous jobs have been temp contract jobs where I have been the top performer on my team (unrelated to my field). However my supervisors say for legal reasons they are not allowed to be a work reference. I have several other accomplishments and even picked up coding skills in java/c+/sql and nobody cares about that. Even for a $13/hr entry level position they only care about work references.









share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Aug 31 at 1:11









jlevis

1172




1172










asked Aug 30 at 17:18









Matthew Liu

7




7




closed as off-topic by Dukeling, gnat, GOATNine, AffableAmbler, The Wandering Dev Manager Aug 31 at 3:57


This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:


  • "Questions require a goal that we can address. Rather than explaining the difficulties of your situation, explain what you want to do to make it better. For more information, see this meta post." – Dukeling, gnat, GOATNine
If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.




closed as off-topic by Dukeling, gnat, GOATNine, AffableAmbler, The Wandering Dev Manager Aug 31 at 3:57


This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:


  • "Questions require a goal that we can address. Rather than explaining the difficulties of your situation, explain what you want to do to make it better. For more information, see this meta post." – Dukeling, gnat, GOATNine
If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.







  • 1




    For clarification, have you any explicit information indicating that the reason you're not being considered is a lack of references? Like comments from a person making the hiring decision? And are you currently in school or have you graduated?
    – Upper_Case
    Aug 30 at 17:22











  • I have graduated 2 years ago. Yes I have had people specifically tell me an interview would be a waste of time without work references.
    – Matthew Liu
    Aug 30 at 17:30






  • 1




    Possible duplicate of Is having no references necessarily a bad thing? or How do I get references when still in my first job? or What is the purpose of references? or Reference from previous Job or How to decline to provide references for a job offer? or Who is appropriate to use for a reference?
    – Dukeling
    Aug 30 at 17:46






  • 1




    So, you're still listing your experience, but all they will do when called is verify you worked there, and not give a statement that showcases your quality of work? Unfortunately, a lot of places only provide that, so that is not uncommon, for you and for others.
    – thursdaysgeek
    Aug 30 at 18:14






  • 1




    Possible duplicate of Is having no references necessarily a bad thing?
    – AffableAmbler
    Aug 31 at 3:36












  • 1




    For clarification, have you any explicit information indicating that the reason you're not being considered is a lack of references? Like comments from a person making the hiring decision? And are you currently in school or have you graduated?
    – Upper_Case
    Aug 30 at 17:22











  • I have graduated 2 years ago. Yes I have had people specifically tell me an interview would be a waste of time without work references.
    – Matthew Liu
    Aug 30 at 17:30






  • 1




    Possible duplicate of Is having no references necessarily a bad thing? or How do I get references when still in my first job? or What is the purpose of references? or Reference from previous Job or How to decline to provide references for a job offer? or Who is appropriate to use for a reference?
    – Dukeling
    Aug 30 at 17:46






  • 1




    So, you're still listing your experience, but all they will do when called is verify you worked there, and not give a statement that showcases your quality of work? Unfortunately, a lot of places only provide that, so that is not uncommon, for you and for others.
    – thursdaysgeek
    Aug 30 at 18:14






  • 1




    Possible duplicate of Is having no references necessarily a bad thing?
    – AffableAmbler
    Aug 31 at 3:36







1




1




For clarification, have you any explicit information indicating that the reason you're not being considered is a lack of references? Like comments from a person making the hiring decision? And are you currently in school or have you graduated?
– Upper_Case
Aug 30 at 17:22





For clarification, have you any explicit information indicating that the reason you're not being considered is a lack of references? Like comments from a person making the hiring decision? And are you currently in school or have you graduated?
– Upper_Case
Aug 30 at 17:22













I have graduated 2 years ago. Yes I have had people specifically tell me an interview would be a waste of time without work references.
– Matthew Liu
Aug 30 at 17:30




I have graduated 2 years ago. Yes I have had people specifically tell me an interview would be a waste of time without work references.
– Matthew Liu
Aug 30 at 17:30




1




1




Possible duplicate of Is having no references necessarily a bad thing? or How do I get references when still in my first job? or What is the purpose of references? or Reference from previous Job or How to decline to provide references for a job offer? or Who is appropriate to use for a reference?
– Dukeling
Aug 30 at 17:46




Possible duplicate of Is having no references necessarily a bad thing? or How do I get references when still in my first job? or What is the purpose of references? or Reference from previous Job or How to decline to provide references for a job offer? or Who is appropriate to use for a reference?
– Dukeling
Aug 30 at 17:46




1




1




So, you're still listing your experience, but all they will do when called is verify you worked there, and not give a statement that showcases your quality of work? Unfortunately, a lot of places only provide that, so that is not uncommon, for you and for others.
– thursdaysgeek
Aug 30 at 18:14




So, you're still listing your experience, but all they will do when called is verify you worked there, and not give a statement that showcases your quality of work? Unfortunately, a lot of places only provide that, so that is not uncommon, for you and for others.
– thursdaysgeek
Aug 30 at 18:14




1




1




Possible duplicate of Is having no references necessarily a bad thing?
– AffableAmbler
Aug 31 at 3:36




Possible duplicate of Is having no references necessarily a bad thing?
– AffableAmbler
Aug 31 at 3:36










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
6
down vote













Why can't you use previous professors as reference? When I got my first job, I used some professors that I had done work for along with other people that I done work for. I also recommend building up a portfolio of your skills. A good idea going forward is to volunteer your skills to a church or a not for profit organization. That way you can build up references.



It's unfortunate that schools/universities/colleges aren't teaching students how to get a job. I've known people just sit there, do their homework, attend classes, then graduate without a job. They continue to not have any jobs even after years. So your case is not uncommon. A good idea to become active in some way. Ask professors for side works, projects, or anything. Do minor jobs for someone who you can reference. Also intern work is a huge plus.






share|improve this answer




















  • Are you implying that I copied your post? I am basing my opinion when I was looking for a job before graduating. Luckily, I got a job about a week before graduation and I was very happy. One of the biggest reason for the job was thanks to these two professors I had done work for and I used them as a reference as well as points on my resume.
    – Dan
    Aug 30 at 17:54











  • FWIW, some of the best references I ever had when first staring out were professors and teachers whom I'd worked well with.
    – esqew
    Aug 30 at 18:07

















up vote
0
down vote













References are just a way of making sure that you can play nice with others in a work setting. Generally, references from work are preferred if not explicitly required, but you can also use your colleagues and if your work direct supervisor is unable to or unwilling. You could also use a former professor or classmate that you worked on a project with.



Not all jobs will require references though. If you keep applying to jobs, you're sure to find some.






share|improve this answer




















  • About half of my jobs have been contract positions, and when my supervisors are unable to give me references due to company policy I just ask the team lead or co-workers and that satisfies my requirement. As @jcmack mentioned, they just want to make sure you are a person who they want to work with.
    – Francine DeGrood Taylor
    Aug 30 at 19:09











  • I had a manager also refused to give me a reference because of company policy. I just asked the manager of another group I worked with for the reference and he was able to without issue.
    – jcmack
    Aug 30 at 21:41

















up vote
-1
down vote













So, the problem isn't really that you have no references, it's that 2 years out from graduation you have no work references.



Rightly or wrongly there will be an assumption that you have had trouble getting into being a worker in the business world.



I would look to finding someone (a relative or better a professor or family friend in a position in business) who can give you a personal reference. If asked I'd offer that (but be honest and explain why you have trouble and who the referee is). Make sure it is someone who can vouch for you working (your Mum won't cut it).



Failing that, get involved in volunteering, and see if you can get to where a supervisor could provide you with one, that'll take time, but if you have no other way it's better than nothing.



Also look at intern roles, although you'll have competition from fresh graduates and a similar problem (why are you looking 2 years down).






share|improve this answer



























    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    6
    down vote













    Why can't you use previous professors as reference? When I got my first job, I used some professors that I had done work for along with other people that I done work for. I also recommend building up a portfolio of your skills. A good idea going forward is to volunteer your skills to a church or a not for profit organization. That way you can build up references.



    It's unfortunate that schools/universities/colleges aren't teaching students how to get a job. I've known people just sit there, do their homework, attend classes, then graduate without a job. They continue to not have any jobs even after years. So your case is not uncommon. A good idea to become active in some way. Ask professors for side works, projects, or anything. Do minor jobs for someone who you can reference. Also intern work is a huge plus.






    share|improve this answer




















    • Are you implying that I copied your post? I am basing my opinion when I was looking for a job before graduating. Luckily, I got a job about a week before graduation and I was very happy. One of the biggest reason for the job was thanks to these two professors I had done work for and I used them as a reference as well as points on my resume.
      – Dan
      Aug 30 at 17:54











    • FWIW, some of the best references I ever had when first staring out were professors and teachers whom I'd worked well with.
      – esqew
      Aug 30 at 18:07














    up vote
    6
    down vote













    Why can't you use previous professors as reference? When I got my first job, I used some professors that I had done work for along with other people that I done work for. I also recommend building up a portfolio of your skills. A good idea going forward is to volunteer your skills to a church or a not for profit organization. That way you can build up references.



    It's unfortunate that schools/universities/colleges aren't teaching students how to get a job. I've known people just sit there, do their homework, attend classes, then graduate without a job. They continue to not have any jobs even after years. So your case is not uncommon. A good idea to become active in some way. Ask professors for side works, projects, or anything. Do minor jobs for someone who you can reference. Also intern work is a huge plus.






    share|improve this answer




















    • Are you implying that I copied your post? I am basing my opinion when I was looking for a job before graduating. Luckily, I got a job about a week before graduation and I was very happy. One of the biggest reason for the job was thanks to these two professors I had done work for and I used them as a reference as well as points on my resume.
      – Dan
      Aug 30 at 17:54











    • FWIW, some of the best references I ever had when first staring out were professors and teachers whom I'd worked well with.
      – esqew
      Aug 30 at 18:07












    up vote
    6
    down vote










    up vote
    6
    down vote









    Why can't you use previous professors as reference? When I got my first job, I used some professors that I had done work for along with other people that I done work for. I also recommend building up a portfolio of your skills. A good idea going forward is to volunteer your skills to a church or a not for profit organization. That way you can build up references.



    It's unfortunate that schools/universities/colleges aren't teaching students how to get a job. I've known people just sit there, do their homework, attend classes, then graduate without a job. They continue to not have any jobs even after years. So your case is not uncommon. A good idea to become active in some way. Ask professors for side works, projects, or anything. Do minor jobs for someone who you can reference. Also intern work is a huge plus.






    share|improve this answer












    Why can't you use previous professors as reference? When I got my first job, I used some professors that I had done work for along with other people that I done work for. I also recommend building up a portfolio of your skills. A good idea going forward is to volunteer your skills to a church or a not for profit organization. That way you can build up references.



    It's unfortunate that schools/universities/colleges aren't teaching students how to get a job. I've known people just sit there, do their homework, attend classes, then graduate without a job. They continue to not have any jobs even after years. So your case is not uncommon. A good idea to become active in some way. Ask professors for side works, projects, or anything. Do minor jobs for someone who you can reference. Also intern work is a huge plus.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered Aug 30 at 17:48









    Dan

    4,0161719




    4,0161719











    • Are you implying that I copied your post? I am basing my opinion when I was looking for a job before graduating. Luckily, I got a job about a week before graduation and I was very happy. One of the biggest reason for the job was thanks to these two professors I had done work for and I used them as a reference as well as points on my resume.
      – Dan
      Aug 30 at 17:54











    • FWIW, some of the best references I ever had when first staring out were professors and teachers whom I'd worked well with.
      – esqew
      Aug 30 at 18:07
















    • Are you implying that I copied your post? I am basing my opinion when I was looking for a job before graduating. Luckily, I got a job about a week before graduation and I was very happy. One of the biggest reason for the job was thanks to these two professors I had done work for and I used them as a reference as well as points on my resume.
      – Dan
      Aug 30 at 17:54











    • FWIW, some of the best references I ever had when first staring out were professors and teachers whom I'd worked well with.
      – esqew
      Aug 30 at 18:07















    Are you implying that I copied your post? I am basing my opinion when I was looking for a job before graduating. Luckily, I got a job about a week before graduation and I was very happy. One of the biggest reason for the job was thanks to these two professors I had done work for and I used them as a reference as well as points on my resume.
    – Dan
    Aug 30 at 17:54





    Are you implying that I copied your post? I am basing my opinion when I was looking for a job before graduating. Luckily, I got a job about a week before graduation and I was very happy. One of the biggest reason for the job was thanks to these two professors I had done work for and I used them as a reference as well as points on my resume.
    – Dan
    Aug 30 at 17:54













    FWIW, some of the best references I ever had when first staring out were professors and teachers whom I'd worked well with.
    – esqew
    Aug 30 at 18:07




    FWIW, some of the best references I ever had when first staring out were professors and teachers whom I'd worked well with.
    – esqew
    Aug 30 at 18:07












    up vote
    0
    down vote













    References are just a way of making sure that you can play nice with others in a work setting. Generally, references from work are preferred if not explicitly required, but you can also use your colleagues and if your work direct supervisor is unable to or unwilling. You could also use a former professor or classmate that you worked on a project with.



    Not all jobs will require references though. If you keep applying to jobs, you're sure to find some.






    share|improve this answer




















    • About half of my jobs have been contract positions, and when my supervisors are unable to give me references due to company policy I just ask the team lead or co-workers and that satisfies my requirement. As @jcmack mentioned, they just want to make sure you are a person who they want to work with.
      – Francine DeGrood Taylor
      Aug 30 at 19:09











    • I had a manager also refused to give me a reference because of company policy. I just asked the manager of another group I worked with for the reference and he was able to without issue.
      – jcmack
      Aug 30 at 21:41














    up vote
    0
    down vote













    References are just a way of making sure that you can play nice with others in a work setting. Generally, references from work are preferred if not explicitly required, but you can also use your colleagues and if your work direct supervisor is unable to or unwilling. You could also use a former professor or classmate that you worked on a project with.



    Not all jobs will require references though. If you keep applying to jobs, you're sure to find some.






    share|improve this answer




















    • About half of my jobs have been contract positions, and when my supervisors are unable to give me references due to company policy I just ask the team lead or co-workers and that satisfies my requirement. As @jcmack mentioned, they just want to make sure you are a person who they want to work with.
      – Francine DeGrood Taylor
      Aug 30 at 19:09











    • I had a manager also refused to give me a reference because of company policy. I just asked the manager of another group I worked with for the reference and he was able to without issue.
      – jcmack
      Aug 30 at 21:41












    up vote
    0
    down vote










    up vote
    0
    down vote









    References are just a way of making sure that you can play nice with others in a work setting. Generally, references from work are preferred if not explicitly required, but you can also use your colleagues and if your work direct supervisor is unable to or unwilling. You could also use a former professor or classmate that you worked on a project with.



    Not all jobs will require references though. If you keep applying to jobs, you're sure to find some.






    share|improve this answer












    References are just a way of making sure that you can play nice with others in a work setting. Generally, references from work are preferred if not explicitly required, but you can also use your colleagues and if your work direct supervisor is unable to or unwilling. You could also use a former professor or classmate that you worked on a project with.



    Not all jobs will require references though. If you keep applying to jobs, you're sure to find some.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered Aug 30 at 17:52









    jcmack

    4,7781830




    4,7781830











    • About half of my jobs have been contract positions, and when my supervisors are unable to give me references due to company policy I just ask the team lead or co-workers and that satisfies my requirement. As @jcmack mentioned, they just want to make sure you are a person who they want to work with.
      – Francine DeGrood Taylor
      Aug 30 at 19:09











    • I had a manager also refused to give me a reference because of company policy. I just asked the manager of another group I worked with for the reference and he was able to without issue.
      – jcmack
      Aug 30 at 21:41
















    • About half of my jobs have been contract positions, and when my supervisors are unable to give me references due to company policy I just ask the team lead or co-workers and that satisfies my requirement. As @jcmack mentioned, they just want to make sure you are a person who they want to work with.
      – Francine DeGrood Taylor
      Aug 30 at 19:09











    • I had a manager also refused to give me a reference because of company policy. I just asked the manager of another group I worked with for the reference and he was able to without issue.
      – jcmack
      Aug 30 at 21:41















    About half of my jobs have been contract positions, and when my supervisors are unable to give me references due to company policy I just ask the team lead or co-workers and that satisfies my requirement. As @jcmack mentioned, they just want to make sure you are a person who they want to work with.
    – Francine DeGrood Taylor
    Aug 30 at 19:09





    About half of my jobs have been contract positions, and when my supervisors are unable to give me references due to company policy I just ask the team lead or co-workers and that satisfies my requirement. As @jcmack mentioned, they just want to make sure you are a person who they want to work with.
    – Francine DeGrood Taylor
    Aug 30 at 19:09













    I had a manager also refused to give me a reference because of company policy. I just asked the manager of another group I worked with for the reference and he was able to without issue.
    – jcmack
    Aug 30 at 21:41




    I had a manager also refused to give me a reference because of company policy. I just asked the manager of another group I worked with for the reference and he was able to without issue.
    – jcmack
    Aug 30 at 21:41










    up vote
    -1
    down vote













    So, the problem isn't really that you have no references, it's that 2 years out from graduation you have no work references.



    Rightly or wrongly there will be an assumption that you have had trouble getting into being a worker in the business world.



    I would look to finding someone (a relative or better a professor or family friend in a position in business) who can give you a personal reference. If asked I'd offer that (but be honest and explain why you have trouble and who the referee is). Make sure it is someone who can vouch for you working (your Mum won't cut it).



    Failing that, get involved in volunteering, and see if you can get to where a supervisor could provide you with one, that'll take time, but if you have no other way it's better than nothing.



    Also look at intern roles, although you'll have competition from fresh graduates and a similar problem (why are you looking 2 years down).






    share|improve this answer
























      up vote
      -1
      down vote













      So, the problem isn't really that you have no references, it's that 2 years out from graduation you have no work references.



      Rightly or wrongly there will be an assumption that you have had trouble getting into being a worker in the business world.



      I would look to finding someone (a relative or better a professor or family friend in a position in business) who can give you a personal reference. If asked I'd offer that (but be honest and explain why you have trouble and who the referee is). Make sure it is someone who can vouch for you working (your Mum won't cut it).



      Failing that, get involved in volunteering, and see if you can get to where a supervisor could provide you with one, that'll take time, but if you have no other way it's better than nothing.



      Also look at intern roles, although you'll have competition from fresh graduates and a similar problem (why are you looking 2 years down).






      share|improve this answer






















        up vote
        -1
        down vote










        up vote
        -1
        down vote









        So, the problem isn't really that you have no references, it's that 2 years out from graduation you have no work references.



        Rightly or wrongly there will be an assumption that you have had trouble getting into being a worker in the business world.



        I would look to finding someone (a relative or better a professor or family friend in a position in business) who can give you a personal reference. If asked I'd offer that (but be honest and explain why you have trouble and who the referee is). Make sure it is someone who can vouch for you working (your Mum won't cut it).



        Failing that, get involved in volunteering, and see if you can get to where a supervisor could provide you with one, that'll take time, but if you have no other way it's better than nothing.



        Also look at intern roles, although you'll have competition from fresh graduates and a similar problem (why are you looking 2 years down).






        share|improve this answer












        So, the problem isn't really that you have no references, it's that 2 years out from graduation you have no work references.



        Rightly or wrongly there will be an assumption that you have had trouble getting into being a worker in the business world.



        I would look to finding someone (a relative or better a professor or family friend in a position in business) who can give you a personal reference. If asked I'd offer that (but be honest and explain why you have trouble and who the referee is). Make sure it is someone who can vouch for you working (your Mum won't cut it).



        Failing that, get involved in volunteering, and see if you can get to where a supervisor could provide you with one, that'll take time, but if you have no other way it's better than nothing.



        Also look at intern roles, although you'll have competition from fresh graduates and a similar problem (why are you looking 2 years down).







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        answered Aug 30 at 17:38









        The Wandering Dev Manager

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