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Is the summer before senior year too early to apply for jobs? [duplicate]
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This question already has an answer here:
When to start sending resumes for full time jobs before graduating?
2 answers
I'm currently at an internship and I'm starting to worry about jobs after graduation.
Is it too early for me to apply for full time positions?
Since I'm within easy traveling distances from many companies in the region, it's definitely much easier for me and for companies to do an in-person interview now, while I am still in the area.
interviewing job-search
edited Jun 4 '12 at 21:51
jcmeloni
21.6k87393
asked Jun 4 '12 at 18:25
mugetsu
384310
marked as duplicate by Dukeling, gnat, scaaahu, Snow♦, Draken Dec 11 '17 at 14:05
This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.
add a comment |Â
up vote
8
down vote
favorite
This question already has an answer here:
When to start sending resumes for full time jobs before graduating?
2 answers
I'm currently at an internship and I'm starting to worry about jobs after graduation.
Is it too early for me to apply for full time positions?
Since I'm within easy traveling distances from many companies in the region, it's definitely much easier for me and for companies to do an in-person interview now, while I am still in the area.
interviewing job-search
edited Jun 4 '12 at 21:51
jcmeloni
21.6k87393
asked Jun 4 '12 at 18:25
mugetsu
384310
marked as duplicate by Dukeling, gnat, scaaahu, Snow♦, Draken Dec 11 '17 at 14:05
This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.
No. It's never too early. Some firms try to poach each other's interns in the summer.
– MathAttack
Aug 9 '12 at 3:49
add a comment |Â
up vote
8
down vote
favorite
up vote
8
down vote
favorite
This question already has an answer here:
When to start sending resumes for full time jobs before graduating?
2 answers
I'm currently at an internship and I'm starting to worry about jobs after graduation.
Is it too early for me to apply for full time positions?
Since I'm within easy traveling distances from many companies in the region, it's definitely much easier for me and for companies to do an in-person interview now, while I am still in the area.
interviewing job-search
edited Jun 4 '12 at 21:51
jcmeloni
21.6k87393
asked Jun 4 '12 at 18:25
mugetsu
384310
This question already has an answer here:
When to start sending resumes for full time jobs before graduating?
2 answers
I'm currently at an internship and I'm starting to worry about jobs after graduation.
Is it too early for me to apply for full time positions?
Since I'm within easy traveling distances from many companies in the region, it's definitely much easier for me and for companies to do an in-person interview now, while I am still in the area.
This question already has an answer here:
When to start sending resumes for full time jobs before graduating?
2 answers
interviewing job-search
edited Jun 4 '12 at 21:51
jcmeloni
21.6k87393
asked Jun 4 '12 at 18:25
mugetsu
384310
edited Jun 4 '12 at 21:51
jcmeloni
21.6k87393
edited Jun 4 '12 at 21:51
jcmeloni
21.6k87393
edited Jun 4 '12 at 21:51
jcmeloni
21.6k87393
21.6k87393
asked Jun 4 '12 at 18:25
mugetsu
384310
asked Jun 4 '12 at 18:25
mugetsu
384310
asked Jun 4 '12 at 18:25
mugetsu
384310
384310
marked as duplicate by Dukeling, gnat, scaaahu, Snow♦, Draken Dec 11 '17 at 14:05
This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.
marked as duplicate by Dukeling, gnat, scaaahu, Snow♦, Draken Dec 11 '17 at 14:05
This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.
No. It's never too early. Some firms try to poach each other's interns in the summer.
– MathAttack
Aug 9 '12 at 3:49
add a comment |Â
No. It's never too early. Some firms try to poach each other's interns in the summer.
– MathAttack
Aug 9 '12 at 3:49
No. It's never too early. Some firms try to poach each other's interns in the summer.
– MathAttack
Aug 9 '12 at 3:49
No. It's never too early. Some firms try to poach each other's interns in the summer.
– MathAttack
Aug 9 '12 at 3:49
add a comment |Â
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
accepted
Rather than applying for full-time positions, what I would do instead is start making networking contacts. Go to user groups meeting and other tech meetings that are local to you and start meeting people. If you have time outside of your internship, help the group put on an event. People who help with the nitty gritty of helping with the an event like a Code Camp or a SQL Saturday will make contacts in many of the best companies. You can even continue to help with some tasks during the school year, just not the on_site ones. You might even come up with a cool presentation topic that you actually get to present.
answered Jun 4 '12 at 19:46
HLGEM
133k25227489
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
If you are applying to jobs to start a year from now, that's way too early. It will be very difficult to find a position like that (where you can start a year later). It is more reasonable to find a position in your last semester as a Senior.
Things you can do in the meantime:
- Network with people (as HLGEM mentioned). Attend the Fall job fair(s) at your college and take the business cards of people from target companies. The same companies might have a position open in your last semester, so you can contact them directly.
- Work on meaty school projects and document "What was most challenging, what you learned", etc.
- Create an online portfolio of school and personal projects.
- If you're in CS, put your source code on something like github
Even if you don't do any of the above, good internship experience can give you a leg up over new grads with no experience whatsoever.
answered Jun 5 '12 at 1:33
Atif
3,53431619
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
If your school has some, talk to the guidance counselors. They should have a lot of experience with helping graduating students figure this out. Right now might be too early, but early fall will probably be the right time. Sometimes your internship will also turn into a job offer by the end of summer, which, if you like the place, might save you the hassle entirely. On the other hand, it doesn't hurt to look around more too.
Just some anecdotal experiences I had:
- In my junior year, I started looking for internships in February/March, thinking that 3-4 months was appropriate. I was wrong. All of the large companies in the area that I would have loved to get in with (Microsoft, Google) were already mostly filled up and were only taking the best of the best at that point; I'd like to think I wasn't too shabby a candidate, but I didn't even get an interview. Now, that was for internships, so it's a little different than a full time job.
- In my senior year, my department had its big career fair in early October if I remember correctly (it's been a few years). Interviews happened sometime in November or December with the large companies (again, Microsoft, Google, Amazon) and some of the smaller ones as well (since they were competing for talent with the big boys), and job offers were wrapping up by New Years. I had to get an extension on one offer because the other company I was interviewing with hadn't finished the interview process by mid December. On the one hand, it was a drawn out process, but on the other, it was over before I originally expected it to even start.
Being somewhat aware of the hiring process from the inside now, I would say that there's certainly more flexibility if you're looking for a full time job. Any reasonable company will judge you based on skills, not on the date you applied.
answered Jun 6 '12 at 3:33
Jimmy
1672
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
My answer is based on my knowledge of the french hiring market, mainly in engineering, computer engineering/science.
1 year, and specifically 1 year before you end your senior year, is too early. For various reasons: most companies don't plan their recruitment so early, also, since you cannot give any idea of your technical level/grades for the final year you won't be able to give tangible facts to the targeted companies, etc.
However, it is not too early to start looking for an internship (basically, big companies are hiring a similar number of interns each year, regardless of the market needs) and to start building a professional network. Work on your resume, start a blog, polish your best computer engineering projects and transform them into open source software, go to (professional) conferences and event, ask for mentoring to professionals you know. If you do that, finding a job quickly will be easier.
answered Aug 10 '12 at 15:44
Sylvain Peyronnet
870612
add a comment |Â
up vote
-2
down vote
No you need to lay the ground work now especialy if you want to take part in the graduate Milk Round for the big multinationals.
You need to work out who you want to target and those companys that you dont want to work for.
answered Aug 8 '12 at 15:17
Neuro
467512
-1 realy you think you going to get on one of the elite Grad recruitment programs Mars for example by leaving it to the last ninute.
– Neuro
Aug 9 '12 at 11:57
add a comment |Â
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
accepted
Rather than applying for full-time positions, what I would do instead is start making networking contacts. Go to user groups meeting and other tech meetings that are local to you and start meeting people. If you have time outside of your internship, help the group put on an event. People who help with the nitty gritty of helping with the an event like a Code Camp or a SQL Saturday will make contacts in many of the best companies. You can even continue to help with some tasks during the school year, just not the on_site ones. You might even come up with a cool presentation topic that you actually get to present.
answered Jun 4 '12 at 19:46
HLGEM
133k25227489
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
accepted
Rather than applying for full-time positions, what I would do instead is start making networking contacts. Go to user groups meeting and other tech meetings that are local to you and start meeting people. If you have time outside of your internship, help the group put on an event. People who help with the nitty gritty of helping with the an event like a Code Camp or a SQL Saturday will make contacts in many of the best companies. You can even continue to help with some tasks during the school year, just not the on_site ones. You might even come up with a cool presentation topic that you actually get to present.
answered Jun 4 '12 at 19:46
HLGEM
133k25227489
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
accepted
up vote
4
down vote
accepted
Rather than applying for full-time positions, what I would do instead is start making networking contacts. Go to user groups meeting and other tech meetings that are local to you and start meeting people. If you have time outside of your internship, help the group put on an event. People who help with the nitty gritty of helping with the an event like a Code Camp or a SQL Saturday will make contacts in many of the best companies. You can even continue to help with some tasks during the school year, just not the on_site ones. You might even come up with a cool presentation topic that you actually get to present.
answered Jun 4 '12 at 19:46
HLGEM
133k25227489
Rather than applying for full-time positions, what I would do instead is start making networking contacts. Go to user groups meeting and other tech meetings that are local to you and start meeting people. If you have time outside of your internship, help the group put on an event. People who help with the nitty gritty of helping with the an event like a Code Camp or a SQL Saturday will make contacts in many of the best companies. You can even continue to help with some tasks during the school year, just not the on_site ones. You might even come up with a cool presentation topic that you actually get to present.
answered Jun 4 '12 at 19:46
HLGEM
133k25227489
edited Aug 7 '12 at 20:34
answered Jun 4 '12 at 19:46
HLGEM
133k25227489
answered Jun 4 '12 at 19:46
HLGEM
133k25227489
answered Jun 4 '12 at 19:46
HLGEM
133k25227489
133k25227489
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
If you are applying to jobs to start a year from now, that's way too early. It will be very difficult to find a position like that (where you can start a year later). It is more reasonable to find a position in your last semester as a Senior.
Things you can do in the meantime:
- Network with people (as HLGEM mentioned). Attend the Fall job fair(s) at your college and take the business cards of people from target companies. The same companies might have a position open in your last semester, so you can contact them directly.
- Work on meaty school projects and document "What was most challenging, what you learned", etc.
- Create an online portfolio of school and personal projects.
- If you're in CS, put your source code on something like github
Even if you don't do any of the above, good internship experience can give you a leg up over new grads with no experience whatsoever.
answered Jun 5 '12 at 1:33
Atif
3,53431619
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
If you are applying to jobs to start a year from now, that's way too early. It will be very difficult to find a position like that (where you can start a year later). It is more reasonable to find a position in your last semester as a Senior.
Things you can do in the meantime:
- Network with people (as HLGEM mentioned). Attend the Fall job fair(s) at your college and take the business cards of people from target companies. The same companies might have a position open in your last semester, so you can contact them directly.
- Work on meaty school projects and document "What was most challenging, what you learned", etc.
- Create an online portfolio of school and personal projects.
- If you're in CS, put your source code on something like github
Even if you don't do any of the above, good internship experience can give you a leg up over new grads with no experience whatsoever.
answered Jun 5 '12 at 1:33
Atif
3,53431619
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
If you are applying to jobs to start a year from now, that's way too early. It will be very difficult to find a position like that (where you can start a year later). It is more reasonable to find a position in your last semester as a Senior.
Things you can do in the meantime:
- Network with people (as HLGEM mentioned). Attend the Fall job fair(s) at your college and take the business cards of people from target companies. The same companies might have a position open in your last semester, so you can contact them directly.
- Work on meaty school projects and document "What was most challenging, what you learned", etc.
- Create an online portfolio of school and personal projects.
- If you're in CS, put your source code on something like github
Even if you don't do any of the above, good internship experience can give you a leg up over new grads with no experience whatsoever.
answered Jun 5 '12 at 1:33
Atif
3,53431619
If you are applying to jobs to start a year from now, that's way too early. It will be very difficult to find a position like that (where you can start a year later). It is more reasonable to find a position in your last semester as a Senior.
Things you can do in the meantime:
- Network with people (as HLGEM mentioned). Attend the Fall job fair(s) at your college and take the business cards of people from target companies. The same companies might have a position open in your last semester, so you can contact them directly.
- Work on meaty school projects and document "What was most challenging, what you learned", etc.
- Create an online portfolio of school and personal projects.
- If you're in CS, put your source code on something like github
Even if you don't do any of the above, good internship experience can give you a leg up over new grads with no experience whatsoever.
answered Jun 5 '12 at 1:33
Atif
3,53431619
answered Jun 5 '12 at 1:33
Atif
3,53431619
answered Jun 5 '12 at 1:33
Atif
3,53431619
answered Jun 5 '12 at 1:33
Atif
3,53431619
3,53431619
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
If your school has some, talk to the guidance counselors. They should have a lot of experience with helping graduating students figure this out. Right now might be too early, but early fall will probably be the right time. Sometimes your internship will also turn into a job offer by the end of summer, which, if you like the place, might save you the hassle entirely. On the other hand, it doesn't hurt to look around more too.
Just some anecdotal experiences I had:
- In my junior year, I started looking for internships in February/March, thinking that 3-4 months was appropriate. I was wrong. All of the large companies in the area that I would have loved to get in with (Microsoft, Google) were already mostly filled up and were only taking the best of the best at that point; I'd like to think I wasn't too shabby a candidate, but I didn't even get an interview. Now, that was for internships, so it's a little different than a full time job.
- In my senior year, my department had its big career fair in early October if I remember correctly (it's been a few years). Interviews happened sometime in November or December with the large companies (again, Microsoft, Google, Amazon) and some of the smaller ones as well (since they were competing for talent with the big boys), and job offers were wrapping up by New Years. I had to get an extension on one offer because the other company I was interviewing with hadn't finished the interview process by mid December. On the one hand, it was a drawn out process, but on the other, it was over before I originally expected it to even start.
Being somewhat aware of the hiring process from the inside now, I would say that there's certainly more flexibility if you're looking for a full time job. Any reasonable company will judge you based on skills, not on the date you applied.
answered Jun 6 '12 at 3:33
Jimmy
1672
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
If your school has some, talk to the guidance counselors. They should have a lot of experience with helping graduating students figure this out. Right now might be too early, but early fall will probably be the right time. Sometimes your internship will also turn into a job offer by the end of summer, which, if you like the place, might save you the hassle entirely. On the other hand, it doesn't hurt to look around more too.
Just some anecdotal experiences I had:
- In my junior year, I started looking for internships in February/March, thinking that 3-4 months was appropriate. I was wrong. All of the large companies in the area that I would have loved to get in with (Microsoft, Google) were already mostly filled up and were only taking the best of the best at that point; I'd like to think I wasn't too shabby a candidate, but I didn't even get an interview. Now, that was for internships, so it's a little different than a full time job.
- In my senior year, my department had its big career fair in early October if I remember correctly (it's been a few years). Interviews happened sometime in November or December with the large companies (again, Microsoft, Google, Amazon) and some of the smaller ones as well (since they were competing for talent with the big boys), and job offers were wrapping up by New Years. I had to get an extension on one offer because the other company I was interviewing with hadn't finished the interview process by mid December. On the one hand, it was a drawn out process, but on the other, it was over before I originally expected it to even start.
Being somewhat aware of the hiring process from the inside now, I would say that there's certainly more flexibility if you're looking for a full time job. Any reasonable company will judge you based on skills, not on the date you applied.
answered Jun 6 '12 at 3:33
Jimmy
1672
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
If your school has some, talk to the guidance counselors. They should have a lot of experience with helping graduating students figure this out. Right now might be too early, but early fall will probably be the right time. Sometimes your internship will also turn into a job offer by the end of summer, which, if you like the place, might save you the hassle entirely. On the other hand, it doesn't hurt to look around more too.
Just some anecdotal experiences I had:
- In my junior year, I started looking for internships in February/March, thinking that 3-4 months was appropriate. I was wrong. All of the large companies in the area that I would have loved to get in with (Microsoft, Google) were already mostly filled up and were only taking the best of the best at that point; I'd like to think I wasn't too shabby a candidate, but I didn't even get an interview. Now, that was for internships, so it's a little different than a full time job.
- In my senior year, my department had its big career fair in early October if I remember correctly (it's been a few years). Interviews happened sometime in November or December with the large companies (again, Microsoft, Google, Amazon) and some of the smaller ones as well (since they were competing for talent with the big boys), and job offers were wrapping up by New Years. I had to get an extension on one offer because the other company I was interviewing with hadn't finished the interview process by mid December. On the one hand, it was a drawn out process, but on the other, it was over before I originally expected it to even start.
Being somewhat aware of the hiring process from the inside now, I would say that there's certainly more flexibility if you're looking for a full time job. Any reasonable company will judge you based on skills, not on the date you applied.
answered Jun 6 '12 at 3:33
Jimmy
1672
If your school has some, talk to the guidance counselors. They should have a lot of experience with helping graduating students figure this out. Right now might be too early, but early fall will probably be the right time. Sometimes your internship will also turn into a job offer by the end of summer, which, if you like the place, might save you the hassle entirely. On the other hand, it doesn't hurt to look around more too.
Just some anecdotal experiences I had:
- In my junior year, I started looking for internships in February/March, thinking that 3-4 months was appropriate. I was wrong. All of the large companies in the area that I would have loved to get in with (Microsoft, Google) were already mostly filled up and were only taking the best of the best at that point; I'd like to think I wasn't too shabby a candidate, but I didn't even get an interview. Now, that was for internships, so it's a little different than a full time job.
- In my senior year, my department had its big career fair in early October if I remember correctly (it's been a few years). Interviews happened sometime in November or December with the large companies (again, Microsoft, Google, Amazon) and some of the smaller ones as well (since they were competing for talent with the big boys), and job offers were wrapping up by New Years. I had to get an extension on one offer because the other company I was interviewing with hadn't finished the interview process by mid December. On the one hand, it was a drawn out process, but on the other, it was over before I originally expected it to even start.
Being somewhat aware of the hiring process from the inside now, I would say that there's certainly more flexibility if you're looking for a full time job. Any reasonable company will judge you based on skills, not on the date you applied.
answered Jun 6 '12 at 3:33
Jimmy
1672
answered Jun 6 '12 at 3:33
Jimmy
1672
answered Jun 6 '12 at 3:33
Jimmy
1672
answered Jun 6 '12 at 3:33
Jimmy
1672
1672
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
My answer is based on my knowledge of the french hiring market, mainly in engineering, computer engineering/science.
1 year, and specifically 1 year before you end your senior year, is too early. For various reasons: most companies don't plan their recruitment so early, also, since you cannot give any idea of your technical level/grades for the final year you won't be able to give tangible facts to the targeted companies, etc.
However, it is not too early to start looking for an internship (basically, big companies are hiring a similar number of interns each year, regardless of the market needs) and to start building a professional network. Work on your resume, start a blog, polish your best computer engineering projects and transform them into open source software, go to (professional) conferences and event, ask for mentoring to professionals you know. If you do that, finding a job quickly will be easier.
answered Aug 10 '12 at 15:44
Sylvain Peyronnet
870612
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
My answer is based on my knowledge of the french hiring market, mainly in engineering, computer engineering/science.
1 year, and specifically 1 year before you end your senior year, is too early. For various reasons: most companies don't plan their recruitment so early, also, since you cannot give any idea of your technical level/grades for the final year you won't be able to give tangible facts to the targeted companies, etc.
However, it is not too early to start looking for an internship (basically, big companies are hiring a similar number of interns each year, regardless of the market needs) and to start building a professional network. Work on your resume, start a blog, polish your best computer engineering projects and transform them into open source software, go to (professional) conferences and event, ask for mentoring to professionals you know. If you do that, finding a job quickly will be easier.
answered Aug 10 '12 at 15:44
Sylvain Peyronnet
870612
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
My answer is based on my knowledge of the french hiring market, mainly in engineering, computer engineering/science.
1 year, and specifically 1 year before you end your senior year, is too early. For various reasons: most companies don't plan their recruitment so early, also, since you cannot give any idea of your technical level/grades for the final year you won't be able to give tangible facts to the targeted companies, etc.
However, it is not too early to start looking for an internship (basically, big companies are hiring a similar number of interns each year, regardless of the market needs) and to start building a professional network. Work on your resume, start a blog, polish your best computer engineering projects and transform them into open source software, go to (professional) conferences and event, ask for mentoring to professionals you know. If you do that, finding a job quickly will be easier.
answered Aug 10 '12 at 15:44
Sylvain Peyronnet
870612
My answer is based on my knowledge of the french hiring market, mainly in engineering, computer engineering/science.
1 year, and specifically 1 year before you end your senior year, is too early. For various reasons: most companies don't plan their recruitment so early, also, since you cannot give any idea of your technical level/grades for the final year you won't be able to give tangible facts to the targeted companies, etc.
However, it is not too early to start looking for an internship (basically, big companies are hiring a similar number of interns each year, regardless of the market needs) and to start building a professional network. Work on your resume, start a blog, polish your best computer engineering projects and transform them into open source software, go to (professional) conferences and event, ask for mentoring to professionals you know. If you do that, finding a job quickly will be easier.
answered Aug 10 '12 at 15:44
Sylvain Peyronnet
870612
answered Aug 10 '12 at 15:44
Sylvain Peyronnet
870612
answered Aug 10 '12 at 15:44
Sylvain Peyronnet
870612
answered Aug 10 '12 at 15:44
Sylvain Peyronnet
870612
870612
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
-2
down vote
No you need to lay the ground work now especialy if you want to take part in the graduate Milk Round for the big multinationals.
You need to work out who you want to target and those companys that you dont want to work for.
answered Aug 8 '12 at 15:17
Neuro
467512
-1 realy you think you going to get on one of the elite Grad recruitment programs Mars for example by leaving it to the last ninute.
– Neuro
Aug 9 '12 at 11:57
add a comment |Â
up vote
-2
down vote
No you need to lay the ground work now especialy if you want to take part in the graduate Milk Round for the big multinationals.
You need to work out who you want to target and those companys that you dont want to work for.
answered Aug 8 '12 at 15:17
Neuro
467512
-1 realy you think you going to get on one of the elite Grad recruitment programs Mars for example by leaving it to the last ninute.
– Neuro
Aug 9 '12 at 11:57
add a comment |Â
up vote
-2
down vote
up vote
-2
down vote
No you need to lay the ground work now especialy if you want to take part in the graduate Milk Round for the big multinationals.
You need to work out who you want to target and those companys that you dont want to work for.
answered Aug 8 '12 at 15:17
Neuro
467512
No you need to lay the ground work now especialy if you want to take part in the graduate Milk Round for the big multinationals.
You need to work out who you want to target and those companys that you dont want to work for.
answered Aug 8 '12 at 15:17
Neuro
467512
answered Aug 8 '12 at 15:17
Neuro
467512
answered Aug 8 '12 at 15:17
Neuro
467512
answered Aug 8 '12 at 15:17
Neuro
467512
467512
-1 realy you think you going to get on one of the elite Grad recruitment programs Mars for example by leaving it to the last ninute.
– Neuro
Aug 9 '12 at 11:57
add a comment |Â
-1 realy you think you going to get on one of the elite Grad recruitment programs Mars for example by leaving it to the last ninute.
– Neuro
Aug 9 '12 at 11:57
-1 realy you think you going to get on one of the elite Grad recruitment programs Mars for example by leaving it to the last ninute.
– Neuro
Aug 9 '12 at 11:57
-1 realy you think you going to get on one of the elite Grad recruitment programs Mars for example by leaving it to the last ninute.
– Neuro
Aug 9 '12 at 11:57
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No. It's never too early. Some firms try to poach each other's interns in the summer.
– MathAttack
Aug 9 '12 at 3:49