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Why can I not get ahold of HR to followup on an internship application status? [closed]
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I have tried on multiple occasions to call the Human Resources department regarding my internship applications, only to be continuously (total of three phone calls over two days) turned down at the first person I speak to (receptionist, never get through to HR). I only seem to have some success when I have names and I don't mention it's about an internship.
- The entire HR department happens to be at a meeting.
- The is nobody available right now, call back in 30 minutes.
- They have already gone home for the day (at 15:45).
(Repeatedly and in that sequence)
Is there some 'thing' here I am missing? I'm being lead around in circles as opposed to getting a 'no, we don't do phone calls unless scheduled'. Most internship materials suggest you follow up after two weeks to show your interest, but I can't get past the reception - why might this be the case? I know no one can know specifically, but it seems strange to me.
Today I managed to talk sufficiently long to the receptionist that I should call at 08:00 in the morning. As much as I know that NASA called astronaut candidates with random questions at 04:00 to see if they were 'helpful' as opposed to 'annoyed and grumpy', is what I am seeing some test in persistence and interest towards the employer, or do they just not take these cold calls throughout the day to be able to work?
Field: Engineering, Europe.
internship human-resources europe
asked Sep 30 '15 at 13:41
Antonio
3591312
closed as off-topic by Lilienthal♦, gnat, scaaahu, IDrinkandIKnowThings, mcknz Oct 6 '15 at 22:43
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "Real questions have answers. Rather than explaining why your situation is terrible, or why your boss/coworker makes you unhappy, explain what you want to do to make it better. For more information, click here." – Lilienthal, gnat, scaaahu, IDrinkandIKnowThings, mcknz
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up vote
17
down vote
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I have tried on multiple occasions to call the Human Resources department regarding my internship applications, only to be continuously (total of three phone calls over two days) turned down at the first person I speak to (receptionist, never get through to HR). I only seem to have some success when I have names and I don't mention it's about an internship.
- The entire HR department happens to be at a meeting.
- The is nobody available right now, call back in 30 minutes.
- They have already gone home for the day (at 15:45).
(Repeatedly and in that sequence)
Is there some 'thing' here I am missing? I'm being lead around in circles as opposed to getting a 'no, we don't do phone calls unless scheduled'. Most internship materials suggest you follow up after two weeks to show your interest, but I can't get past the reception - why might this be the case? I know no one can know specifically, but it seems strange to me.
Today I managed to talk sufficiently long to the receptionist that I should call at 08:00 in the morning. As much as I know that NASA called astronaut candidates with random questions at 04:00 to see if they were 'helpful' as opposed to 'annoyed and grumpy', is what I am seeing some test in persistence and interest towards the employer, or do they just not take these cold calls throughout the day to be able to work?
Field: Engineering, Europe.
internship human-resources europe
asked Sep 30 '15 at 13:41
Antonio
3591312
closed as off-topic by Lilienthal♦, gnat, scaaahu, IDrinkandIKnowThings, mcknz Oct 6 '15 at 22:43
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "Real questions have answers. Rather than explaining why your situation is terrible, or why your boss/coworker makes you unhappy, explain what you want to do to make it better. For more information, click here." – Lilienthal, gnat, scaaahu, IDrinkandIKnowThings, mcknz
6
Have you tried emailing the person in charge of the internship recruitment? How long has it been since you applied?
– Brandin
Sep 30 '15 at 13:46
@Brandin generally only mentions a general email with no names available. Waited ~2 weeks.
– Antonio
Sep 30 '15 at 13:48
11
On a scale of 1-10 in importance to HR, hiring interns is a 1-3. They do much more than hire and, even in hiring, permanent employees are far more important to them. 2 weeks is nothing to wait for an internship decision. I assure you that if they are interested, they will contact you. Move on and keep applying rather than spin your wheels making annoying phone calls.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 13:56
5
"I have tried on multiple occasions to call the Human Resources department regarding my internship applications," There's your problem Aside from the fact that you don't ever call for stuff like this any more, you can get away with contacting HR to request an update once between interviews/decisions and then only after a considerable amount of time has passed since the last contact with the company (weeks, not days, let alone hours).
– Lilienthal♦
Sep 30 '15 at 14:34
Hi Mike, I made an edit to this to make it more generic and more easily answerable in a general sense. It was picking up some close votes and hopefully this makes it more on topic here. No one can know in your specific case why (except their HR) but there are definitely some good and more common reasons for this.
– Elysian Fields♦
Sep 30 '15 at 16:43
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
17
down vote
favorite
up vote
17
down vote
favorite
I have tried on multiple occasions to call the Human Resources department regarding my internship applications, only to be continuously (total of three phone calls over two days) turned down at the first person I speak to (receptionist, never get through to HR). I only seem to have some success when I have names and I don't mention it's about an internship.
- The entire HR department happens to be at a meeting.
- The is nobody available right now, call back in 30 minutes.
- They have already gone home for the day (at 15:45).
(Repeatedly and in that sequence)
Is there some 'thing' here I am missing? I'm being lead around in circles as opposed to getting a 'no, we don't do phone calls unless scheduled'. Most internship materials suggest you follow up after two weeks to show your interest, but I can't get past the reception - why might this be the case? I know no one can know specifically, but it seems strange to me.
Today I managed to talk sufficiently long to the receptionist that I should call at 08:00 in the morning. As much as I know that NASA called astronaut candidates with random questions at 04:00 to see if they were 'helpful' as opposed to 'annoyed and grumpy', is what I am seeing some test in persistence and interest towards the employer, or do they just not take these cold calls throughout the day to be able to work?
Field: Engineering, Europe.
internship human-resources europe
asked Sep 30 '15 at 13:41
Antonio
3591312
I have tried on multiple occasions to call the Human Resources department regarding my internship applications, only to be continuously (total of three phone calls over two days) turned down at the first person I speak to (receptionist, never get through to HR). I only seem to have some success when I have names and I don't mention it's about an internship.
- The entire HR department happens to be at a meeting.
- The is nobody available right now, call back in 30 minutes.
- They have already gone home for the day (at 15:45).
(Repeatedly and in that sequence)
Is there some 'thing' here I am missing? I'm being lead around in circles as opposed to getting a 'no, we don't do phone calls unless scheduled'. Most internship materials suggest you follow up after two weeks to show your interest, but I can't get past the reception - why might this be the case? I know no one can know specifically, but it seems strange to me.
Today I managed to talk sufficiently long to the receptionist that I should call at 08:00 in the morning. As much as I know that NASA called astronaut candidates with random questions at 04:00 to see if they were 'helpful' as opposed to 'annoyed and grumpy', is what I am seeing some test in persistence and interest towards the employer, or do they just not take these cold calls throughout the day to be able to work?
Field: Engineering, Europe.
internship human-resources europe
asked Sep 30 '15 at 13:41
Antonio
3591312
edited Sep 30 '15 at 17:43
asked Sep 30 '15 at 13:41
Antonio
3591312
asked Sep 30 '15 at 13:41
Antonio
3591312
asked Sep 30 '15 at 13:41
Antonio
3591312
3591312
closed as off-topic by Lilienthal♦, gnat, scaaahu, IDrinkandIKnowThings, mcknz Oct 6 '15 at 22:43
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "Real questions have answers. Rather than explaining why your situation is terrible, or why your boss/coworker makes you unhappy, explain what you want to do to make it better. For more information, click here." – Lilienthal, gnat, scaaahu, IDrinkandIKnowThings, mcknz
closed as off-topic by Lilienthal♦, gnat, scaaahu, IDrinkandIKnowThings, mcknz Oct 6 '15 at 22:43
This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:
- "Real questions have answers. Rather than explaining why your situation is terrible, or why your boss/coworker makes you unhappy, explain what you want to do to make it better. For more information, click here." – Lilienthal, gnat, scaaahu, IDrinkandIKnowThings, mcknz
6
Have you tried emailing the person in charge of the internship recruitment? How long has it been since you applied?
– Brandin
Sep 30 '15 at 13:46
@Brandin generally only mentions a general email with no names available. Waited ~2 weeks.
– Antonio
Sep 30 '15 at 13:48
11
On a scale of 1-10 in importance to HR, hiring interns is a 1-3. They do much more than hire and, even in hiring, permanent employees are far more important to them. 2 weeks is nothing to wait for an internship decision. I assure you that if they are interested, they will contact you. Move on and keep applying rather than spin your wheels making annoying phone calls.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 13:56
5
"I have tried on multiple occasions to call the Human Resources department regarding my internship applications," There's your problem Aside from the fact that you don't ever call for stuff like this any more, you can get away with contacting HR to request an update once between interviews/decisions and then only after a considerable amount of time has passed since the last contact with the company (weeks, not days, let alone hours).
– Lilienthal♦
Sep 30 '15 at 14:34
Hi Mike, I made an edit to this to make it more generic and more easily answerable in a general sense. It was picking up some close votes and hopefully this makes it more on topic here. No one can know in your specific case why (except their HR) but there are definitely some good and more common reasons for this.
– Elysian Fields♦
Sep 30 '15 at 16:43
 |Â
show 1 more comment
6
Have you tried emailing the person in charge of the internship recruitment? How long has it been since you applied?
– Brandin
Sep 30 '15 at 13:46
@Brandin generally only mentions a general email with no names available. Waited ~2 weeks.
– Antonio
Sep 30 '15 at 13:48
11
On a scale of 1-10 in importance to HR, hiring interns is a 1-3. They do much more than hire and, even in hiring, permanent employees are far more important to them. 2 weeks is nothing to wait for an internship decision. I assure you that if they are interested, they will contact you. Move on and keep applying rather than spin your wheels making annoying phone calls.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 13:56
5
"I have tried on multiple occasions to call the Human Resources department regarding my internship applications," There's your problem Aside from the fact that you don't ever call for stuff like this any more, you can get away with contacting HR to request an update once between interviews/decisions and then only after a considerable amount of time has passed since the last contact with the company (weeks, not days, let alone hours).
– Lilienthal♦
Sep 30 '15 at 14:34
Hi Mike, I made an edit to this to make it more generic and more easily answerable in a general sense. It was picking up some close votes and hopefully this makes it more on topic here. No one can know in your specific case why (except their HR) but there are definitely some good and more common reasons for this.
– Elysian Fields♦
Sep 30 '15 at 16:43
6
6
Have you tried emailing the person in charge of the internship recruitment? How long has it been since you applied?
– Brandin
Sep 30 '15 at 13:46
Have you tried emailing the person in charge of the internship recruitment? How long has it been since you applied?
– Brandin
Sep 30 '15 at 13:46
@Brandin generally only mentions a general email with no names available. Waited ~2 weeks.
– Antonio
Sep 30 '15 at 13:48
@Brandin generally only mentions a general email with no names available. Waited ~2 weeks.
– Antonio
Sep 30 '15 at 13:48
11
11
On a scale of 1-10 in importance to HR, hiring interns is a 1-3. They do much more than hire and, even in hiring, permanent employees are far more important to them. 2 weeks is nothing to wait for an internship decision. I assure you that if they are interested, they will contact you. Move on and keep applying rather than spin your wheels making annoying phone calls.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 13:56
On a scale of 1-10 in importance to HR, hiring interns is a 1-3. They do much more than hire and, even in hiring, permanent employees are far more important to them. 2 weeks is nothing to wait for an internship decision. I assure you that if they are interested, they will contact you. Move on and keep applying rather than spin your wheels making annoying phone calls.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 13:56
5
5
"I have tried on multiple occasions to call the Human Resources department regarding my internship applications," There's your problem Aside from the fact that you don't ever call for stuff like this any more, you can get away with contacting HR to request an update once between interviews/decisions and then only after a considerable amount of time has passed since the last contact with the company (weeks, not days, let alone hours).
– Lilienthal♦
Sep 30 '15 at 14:34
"I have tried on multiple occasions to call the Human Resources department regarding my internship applications," There's your problem Aside from the fact that you don't ever call for stuff like this any more, you can get away with contacting HR to request an update once between interviews/decisions and then only after a considerable amount of time has passed since the last contact with the company (weeks, not days, let alone hours).
– Lilienthal♦
Sep 30 '15 at 14:34
Hi Mike, I made an edit to this to make it more generic and more easily answerable in a general sense. It was picking up some close votes and hopefully this makes it more on topic here. No one can know in your specific case why (except their HR) but there are definitely some good and more common reasons for this.
– Elysian Fields♦
Sep 30 '15 at 16:43
Hi Mike, I made an edit to this to make it more generic and more easily answerable in a general sense. It was picking up some close votes and hopefully this makes it more on topic here. No one can know in your specific case why (except their HR) but there are definitely some good and more common reasons for this.
– Elysian Fields♦
Sep 30 '15 at 16:43
 |Â
show 1 more comment
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
up vote
45
down vote
accepted
No there's not a plot. Cold calling is bound to be annoying to them and not likely to receive results.
Reasons it's not likely to receive results is:
It's annoying. HR has a defined application process and you are trying to bypass it. At best you get a "we'll get back to you when we process your application" and at worst you annoy people. You've already tried "multiple times" - this is going to annoy anyone who receives your calls!
Internships are not that important. Everyone has a lot more important things to do almost assuredly. Super important to you, not at all important to them.
HR lives in meetings. When I have viewed HR calendars at my work, they are filled with meetings. It's not surprising to me they would be in meetings
Bypassing a process normally doesn't work. Unless you know someone who can move the process along internally, all you do is annoy people. Your application probably included how they would get back to you as an auto-reply email (or something similar).
They probably have dozens of applications. The more desirable the company the more people who likely applied.
They may want to interview other candidates first, but not reject you immediately. If they have lots of good candidates they may not want to immediately reject someone. If their top candidates don't succeed in the interview and/or accept offers, they may want to follow up with someone.
Also, the reality is, many times when you don't get a job you don't get any notification at all.
Annoying HR almost assuredly won't change a rejection. But it might annoy someone enough to drop your chances if you were in the process.
Also some anecdotal stories - I've not heard back regarding internships for months before getting a "hey are you still available?" call a week before I started a different internship.
In some cases I've received auto-generated rejection emails years later for jobs I didn't remember applying to!
answered Sep 30 '15 at 14:02
Elysian Fields♦
96.8k46292449
8
@MikeFoxtrot keep in mind there is a big difference between a single followup and "multiple occasions" and "continuously turned down." There is also a difference between interview followup and application followup. In one case, you know the company wanted to consider you - in the other, you have no idea (companies won't interview 100 people for a single position normally but may get that many applicants, etc).
– Elysian Fields♦
Sep 30 '15 at 14:12
7
We had over 900 applications for one job opening we had (and that was after HR got done filtering out the totally unqualified). So of course we did not take the time to talk to every one and I am sure HR did not either.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 14:23
13
@HLGEM I see absolutely no reason why I company can not sent ~890 reject emails or letters. It is common courtesy to do so and I find it highly unprofessional if companies don't do it. This just sucks for the applicant, who never knows that he or she got rejected and also increases workload for HR, as at least some people will call or email to get a follow up. It doesn't make any sense to not notify people. Of course, it should be an highly-individual 30 minute phone talk for everyone...
– dirkk
Sep 30 '15 at 17:13
6
I'm not sure the "multiple times" point is that relevant here. It doesn't sound like any of those attempts actually managed to connect with somebody in HR. If OP had received an answer of "we're sorry but we can't discuss that at this time", then it would certainly be poor etiquette to keep calling. If every call results in "no one from HR is available" then it would make sense to call back at another time and try again.
– Chris Hayes
Sep 30 '15 at 17:21
5
@Dirrk, I live in the real world where virtually no company sends out these letters and no one with experience expects them. It is just the way the world works. No sense whining about it. When you are in charge of the world, you can change that.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 19:59
 |Â
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up vote
33
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These people are what is known as gatekeepers. It's very easy to tell them not to forward calls from people we don't want to talk to.
Right now, your internship is probably the number one thing on your mind and it is about 1000th on an HR departments. There's no shortage of candidates. They don't make the company any money. And you're not around long enough to cause any major harm if you're a bad hire.
You're going to be on the other end some day. I hope you have the time to take calls from job/internship candidates, but don't count on it.
If they didn't do a bad job, they wouldn't need to answer calls.
– Davor
Oct 1 '15 at 11:39
@davor, they are not necessaarily doing a bad job, they don't have to work on your schedule and take your application as the most important thing in the world. They do have other much more important task to do most of the time.
– HLGEM
Oct 1 '15 at 13:57
@HLGEM not sending rejection emails is a bad job. It's worse than that actually, it's quite rude and disrespectful.
– Davor
Oct 1 '15 at 15:58
@Davor, In over 30 years in the world world I have exactly once gotten a letter saying I was not selected for a job I applied for (and that was one I interviewed for). It is not a common practice. It is not rude; it is the norm.
– HLGEM
Oct 1 '15 at 18:21
@HLGEM - I've only ever applied to like 3 jobs where I was rejected, and I've always received a rejection email, including from MS for an internship. And it doesn't matter if it's the norm or common practice, it's still rude. You're setting up a false dilemma.
– Davor
Oct 2 '15 at 10:54
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Because they don't want you to contact them
The answer to the literal question of "Why can I not get ahold of HR to followup on an internship application status?" is that they have explicitly taken steps to prevent you from getting ahold of them to followup on an internship application status. You're likely getting such responses from receptionists because they're doing their job in protecting other employees from undesired contact attempts - you may think of them as a 'meatspace spam filter'.
Companies who have a small number of applicants may choose to treat each application individually.
Companies who have a large amount of applicants may (and often do) choose to implement a process that minimizes time spent on each individual application. For example, for a vacancy with 100 or 300 applicants (common in some industries), you would generally want to spend any meaningful time on only a limited amount of them - you'd have a first stage screening process that would leave you with a manageable amount of candidates (10-20) and take something like a minute per application. 5 minutes per application times 100-300 applications would mean 8-24 working hours for just an initial screening - so that's generally not aceptable.
Throwing out good candidates for random reasons at this stage is okay (because there are more than 10-20 good candidates, and even a perfect screening process will have to eliminate many good candidates w/o consideration); wasting time on individual phone followup is not resonable - they will spend time on the candidates they selected, the rest will get an automated response if the system allows to do that in an efficient way (i.e., no personalized responses or explanations).
This applies for advertised vacancies - cold calling / cold mailing for internship opportunities may often deliberately mean no response at all, ever, and an automatic forward to the trash bin. They're likely not interested in applications, and even less interested in spending time to discuss them.
answered Oct 1 '15 at 11:01
Peteris
617814
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
45
down vote
accepted
No there's not a plot. Cold calling is bound to be annoying to them and not likely to receive results.
Reasons it's not likely to receive results is:
It's annoying. HR has a defined application process and you are trying to bypass it. At best you get a "we'll get back to you when we process your application" and at worst you annoy people. You've already tried "multiple times" - this is going to annoy anyone who receives your calls!
Internships are not that important. Everyone has a lot more important things to do almost assuredly. Super important to you, not at all important to them.
HR lives in meetings. When I have viewed HR calendars at my work, they are filled with meetings. It's not surprising to me they would be in meetings
Bypassing a process normally doesn't work. Unless you know someone who can move the process along internally, all you do is annoy people. Your application probably included how they would get back to you as an auto-reply email (or something similar).
They probably have dozens of applications. The more desirable the company the more people who likely applied.
They may want to interview other candidates first, but not reject you immediately. If they have lots of good candidates they may not want to immediately reject someone. If their top candidates don't succeed in the interview and/or accept offers, they may want to follow up with someone.
Also, the reality is, many times when you don't get a job you don't get any notification at all.
Annoying HR almost assuredly won't change a rejection. But it might annoy someone enough to drop your chances if you were in the process.
Also some anecdotal stories - I've not heard back regarding internships for months before getting a "hey are you still available?" call a week before I started a different internship.
In some cases I've received auto-generated rejection emails years later for jobs I didn't remember applying to!
answered Sep 30 '15 at 14:02
Elysian Fields♦
96.8k46292449
8
@MikeFoxtrot keep in mind there is a big difference between a single followup and "multiple occasions" and "continuously turned down." There is also a difference between interview followup and application followup. In one case, you know the company wanted to consider you - in the other, you have no idea (companies won't interview 100 people for a single position normally but may get that many applicants, etc).
– Elysian Fields♦
Sep 30 '15 at 14:12
7
We had over 900 applications for one job opening we had (and that was after HR got done filtering out the totally unqualified). So of course we did not take the time to talk to every one and I am sure HR did not either.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 14:23
13
@HLGEM I see absolutely no reason why I company can not sent ~890 reject emails or letters. It is common courtesy to do so and I find it highly unprofessional if companies don't do it. This just sucks for the applicant, who never knows that he or she got rejected and also increases workload for HR, as at least some people will call or email to get a follow up. It doesn't make any sense to not notify people. Of course, it should be an highly-individual 30 minute phone talk for everyone...
– dirkk
Sep 30 '15 at 17:13
6
I'm not sure the "multiple times" point is that relevant here. It doesn't sound like any of those attempts actually managed to connect with somebody in HR. If OP had received an answer of "we're sorry but we can't discuss that at this time", then it would certainly be poor etiquette to keep calling. If every call results in "no one from HR is available" then it would make sense to call back at another time and try again.
– Chris Hayes
Sep 30 '15 at 17:21
5
@Dirrk, I live in the real world where virtually no company sends out these letters and no one with experience expects them. It is just the way the world works. No sense whining about it. When you are in charge of the world, you can change that.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 19:59
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
45
down vote
accepted
No there's not a plot. Cold calling is bound to be annoying to them and not likely to receive results.
Reasons it's not likely to receive results is:
It's annoying. HR has a defined application process and you are trying to bypass it. At best you get a "we'll get back to you when we process your application" and at worst you annoy people. You've already tried "multiple times" - this is going to annoy anyone who receives your calls!
Internships are not that important. Everyone has a lot more important things to do almost assuredly. Super important to you, not at all important to them.
HR lives in meetings. When I have viewed HR calendars at my work, they are filled with meetings. It's not surprising to me they would be in meetings
Bypassing a process normally doesn't work. Unless you know someone who can move the process along internally, all you do is annoy people. Your application probably included how they would get back to you as an auto-reply email (or something similar).
They probably have dozens of applications. The more desirable the company the more people who likely applied.
They may want to interview other candidates first, but not reject you immediately. If they have lots of good candidates they may not want to immediately reject someone. If their top candidates don't succeed in the interview and/or accept offers, they may want to follow up with someone.
Also, the reality is, many times when you don't get a job you don't get any notification at all.
Annoying HR almost assuredly won't change a rejection. But it might annoy someone enough to drop your chances if you were in the process.
Also some anecdotal stories - I've not heard back regarding internships for months before getting a "hey are you still available?" call a week before I started a different internship.
In some cases I've received auto-generated rejection emails years later for jobs I didn't remember applying to!
answered Sep 30 '15 at 14:02
Elysian Fields♦
96.8k46292449
8
@MikeFoxtrot keep in mind there is a big difference between a single followup and "multiple occasions" and "continuously turned down." There is also a difference between interview followup and application followup. In one case, you know the company wanted to consider you - in the other, you have no idea (companies won't interview 100 people for a single position normally but may get that many applicants, etc).
– Elysian Fields♦
Sep 30 '15 at 14:12
7
We had over 900 applications for one job opening we had (and that was after HR got done filtering out the totally unqualified). So of course we did not take the time to talk to every one and I am sure HR did not either.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 14:23
13
@HLGEM I see absolutely no reason why I company can not sent ~890 reject emails or letters. It is common courtesy to do so and I find it highly unprofessional if companies don't do it. This just sucks for the applicant, who never knows that he or she got rejected and also increases workload for HR, as at least some people will call or email to get a follow up. It doesn't make any sense to not notify people. Of course, it should be an highly-individual 30 minute phone talk for everyone...
– dirkk
Sep 30 '15 at 17:13
6
I'm not sure the "multiple times" point is that relevant here. It doesn't sound like any of those attempts actually managed to connect with somebody in HR. If OP had received an answer of "we're sorry but we can't discuss that at this time", then it would certainly be poor etiquette to keep calling. If every call results in "no one from HR is available" then it would make sense to call back at another time and try again.
– Chris Hayes
Sep 30 '15 at 17:21
5
@Dirrk, I live in the real world where virtually no company sends out these letters and no one with experience expects them. It is just the way the world works. No sense whining about it. When you are in charge of the world, you can change that.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 19:59
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
45
down vote
accepted
up vote
45
down vote
accepted
No there's not a plot. Cold calling is bound to be annoying to them and not likely to receive results.
Reasons it's not likely to receive results is:
It's annoying. HR has a defined application process and you are trying to bypass it. At best you get a "we'll get back to you when we process your application" and at worst you annoy people. You've already tried "multiple times" - this is going to annoy anyone who receives your calls!
Internships are not that important. Everyone has a lot more important things to do almost assuredly. Super important to you, not at all important to them.
HR lives in meetings. When I have viewed HR calendars at my work, they are filled with meetings. It's not surprising to me they would be in meetings
Bypassing a process normally doesn't work. Unless you know someone who can move the process along internally, all you do is annoy people. Your application probably included how they would get back to you as an auto-reply email (or something similar).
They probably have dozens of applications. The more desirable the company the more people who likely applied.
They may want to interview other candidates first, but not reject you immediately. If they have lots of good candidates they may not want to immediately reject someone. If their top candidates don't succeed in the interview and/or accept offers, they may want to follow up with someone.
Also, the reality is, many times when you don't get a job you don't get any notification at all.
Annoying HR almost assuredly won't change a rejection. But it might annoy someone enough to drop your chances if you were in the process.
Also some anecdotal stories - I've not heard back regarding internships for months before getting a "hey are you still available?" call a week before I started a different internship.
In some cases I've received auto-generated rejection emails years later for jobs I didn't remember applying to!
answered Sep 30 '15 at 14:02
Elysian Fields♦
96.8k46292449
No there's not a plot. Cold calling is bound to be annoying to them and not likely to receive results.
Reasons it's not likely to receive results is:
It's annoying. HR has a defined application process and you are trying to bypass it. At best you get a "we'll get back to you when we process your application" and at worst you annoy people. You've already tried "multiple times" - this is going to annoy anyone who receives your calls!
Internships are not that important. Everyone has a lot more important things to do almost assuredly. Super important to you, not at all important to them.
HR lives in meetings. When I have viewed HR calendars at my work, they are filled with meetings. It's not surprising to me they would be in meetings
Bypassing a process normally doesn't work. Unless you know someone who can move the process along internally, all you do is annoy people. Your application probably included how they would get back to you as an auto-reply email (or something similar).
They probably have dozens of applications. The more desirable the company the more people who likely applied.
They may want to interview other candidates first, but not reject you immediately. If they have lots of good candidates they may not want to immediately reject someone. If their top candidates don't succeed in the interview and/or accept offers, they may want to follow up with someone.
Also, the reality is, many times when you don't get a job you don't get any notification at all.
Annoying HR almost assuredly won't change a rejection. But it might annoy someone enough to drop your chances if you were in the process.
Also some anecdotal stories - I've not heard back regarding internships for months before getting a "hey are you still available?" call a week before I started a different internship.
In some cases I've received auto-generated rejection emails years later for jobs I didn't remember applying to!
answered Sep 30 '15 at 14:02
Elysian Fields♦
96.8k46292449
edited Sep 30 '15 at 14:29
answered Sep 30 '15 at 14:02
Elysian Fields♦
96.8k46292449
answered Sep 30 '15 at 14:02
Elysian Fields♦
96.8k46292449
answered Sep 30 '15 at 14:02
Elysian Fields♦
96.8k46292449
96.8k46292449
8
@MikeFoxtrot keep in mind there is a big difference between a single followup and "multiple occasions" and "continuously turned down." There is also a difference between interview followup and application followup. In one case, you know the company wanted to consider you - in the other, you have no idea (companies won't interview 100 people for a single position normally but may get that many applicants, etc).
– Elysian Fields♦
Sep 30 '15 at 14:12
7
We had over 900 applications for one job opening we had (and that was after HR got done filtering out the totally unqualified). So of course we did not take the time to talk to every one and I am sure HR did not either.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 14:23
13
@HLGEM I see absolutely no reason why I company can not sent ~890 reject emails or letters. It is common courtesy to do so and I find it highly unprofessional if companies don't do it. This just sucks for the applicant, who never knows that he or she got rejected and also increases workload for HR, as at least some people will call or email to get a follow up. It doesn't make any sense to not notify people. Of course, it should be an highly-individual 30 minute phone talk for everyone...
– dirkk
Sep 30 '15 at 17:13
6
I'm not sure the "multiple times" point is that relevant here. It doesn't sound like any of those attempts actually managed to connect with somebody in HR. If OP had received an answer of "we're sorry but we can't discuss that at this time", then it would certainly be poor etiquette to keep calling. If every call results in "no one from HR is available" then it would make sense to call back at another time and try again.
– Chris Hayes
Sep 30 '15 at 17:21
5
@Dirrk, I live in the real world where virtually no company sends out these letters and no one with experience expects them. It is just the way the world works. No sense whining about it. When you are in charge of the world, you can change that.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 19:59
 |Â
show 9 more comments
8
@MikeFoxtrot keep in mind there is a big difference between a single followup and "multiple occasions" and "continuously turned down." There is also a difference between interview followup and application followup. In one case, you know the company wanted to consider you - in the other, you have no idea (companies won't interview 100 people for a single position normally but may get that many applicants, etc).
– Elysian Fields♦
Sep 30 '15 at 14:12
7
We had over 900 applications for one job opening we had (and that was after HR got done filtering out the totally unqualified). So of course we did not take the time to talk to every one and I am sure HR did not either.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 14:23
13
@HLGEM I see absolutely no reason why I company can not sent ~890 reject emails or letters. It is common courtesy to do so and I find it highly unprofessional if companies don't do it. This just sucks for the applicant, who never knows that he or she got rejected and also increases workload for HR, as at least some people will call or email to get a follow up. It doesn't make any sense to not notify people. Of course, it should be an highly-individual 30 minute phone talk for everyone...
– dirkk
Sep 30 '15 at 17:13
6
I'm not sure the "multiple times" point is that relevant here. It doesn't sound like any of those attempts actually managed to connect with somebody in HR. If OP had received an answer of "we're sorry but we can't discuss that at this time", then it would certainly be poor etiquette to keep calling. If every call results in "no one from HR is available" then it would make sense to call back at another time and try again.
– Chris Hayes
Sep 30 '15 at 17:21
5
@Dirrk, I live in the real world where virtually no company sends out these letters and no one with experience expects them. It is just the way the world works. No sense whining about it. When you are in charge of the world, you can change that.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 19:59
8
8
@MikeFoxtrot keep in mind there is a big difference between a single followup and "multiple occasions" and "continuously turned down." There is also a difference between interview followup and application followup. In one case, you know the company wanted to consider you - in the other, you have no idea (companies won't interview 100 people for a single position normally but may get that many applicants, etc).
– Elysian Fields♦
Sep 30 '15 at 14:12
@MikeFoxtrot keep in mind there is a big difference between a single followup and "multiple occasions" and "continuously turned down." There is also a difference between interview followup and application followup. In one case, you know the company wanted to consider you - in the other, you have no idea (companies won't interview 100 people for a single position normally but may get that many applicants, etc).
– Elysian Fields♦
Sep 30 '15 at 14:12
7
7
We had over 900 applications for one job opening we had (and that was after HR got done filtering out the totally unqualified). So of course we did not take the time to talk to every one and I am sure HR did not either.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 14:23
We had over 900 applications for one job opening we had (and that was after HR got done filtering out the totally unqualified). So of course we did not take the time to talk to every one and I am sure HR did not either.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 14:23
13
13
@HLGEM I see absolutely no reason why I company can not sent ~890 reject emails or letters. It is common courtesy to do so and I find it highly unprofessional if companies don't do it. This just sucks for the applicant, who never knows that he or she got rejected and also increases workload for HR, as at least some people will call or email to get a follow up. It doesn't make any sense to not notify people. Of course, it should be an highly-individual 30 minute phone talk for everyone...
– dirkk
Sep 30 '15 at 17:13
@HLGEM I see absolutely no reason why I company can not sent ~890 reject emails or letters. It is common courtesy to do so and I find it highly unprofessional if companies don't do it. This just sucks for the applicant, who never knows that he or she got rejected and also increases workload for HR, as at least some people will call or email to get a follow up. It doesn't make any sense to not notify people. Of course, it should be an highly-individual 30 minute phone talk for everyone...
– dirkk
Sep 30 '15 at 17:13
6
6
I'm not sure the "multiple times" point is that relevant here. It doesn't sound like any of those attempts actually managed to connect with somebody in HR. If OP had received an answer of "we're sorry but we can't discuss that at this time", then it would certainly be poor etiquette to keep calling. If every call results in "no one from HR is available" then it would make sense to call back at another time and try again.
– Chris Hayes
Sep 30 '15 at 17:21
I'm not sure the "multiple times" point is that relevant here. It doesn't sound like any of those attempts actually managed to connect with somebody in HR. If OP had received an answer of "we're sorry but we can't discuss that at this time", then it would certainly be poor etiquette to keep calling. If every call results in "no one from HR is available" then it would make sense to call back at another time and try again.
– Chris Hayes
Sep 30 '15 at 17:21
5
5
@Dirrk, I live in the real world where virtually no company sends out these letters and no one with experience expects them. It is just the way the world works. No sense whining about it. When you are in charge of the world, you can change that.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 19:59
@Dirrk, I live in the real world where virtually no company sends out these letters and no one with experience expects them. It is just the way the world works. No sense whining about it. When you are in charge of the world, you can change that.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 19:59
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
33
down vote
These people are what is known as gatekeepers. It's very easy to tell them not to forward calls from people we don't want to talk to.
Right now, your internship is probably the number one thing on your mind and it is about 1000th on an HR departments. There's no shortage of candidates. They don't make the company any money. And you're not around long enough to cause any major harm if you're a bad hire.
You're going to be on the other end some day. I hope you have the time to take calls from job/internship candidates, but don't count on it.
If they didn't do a bad job, they wouldn't need to answer calls.
– Davor
Oct 1 '15 at 11:39
@davor, they are not necessaarily doing a bad job, they don't have to work on your schedule and take your application as the most important thing in the world. They do have other much more important task to do most of the time.
– HLGEM
Oct 1 '15 at 13:57
@HLGEM not sending rejection emails is a bad job. It's worse than that actually, it's quite rude and disrespectful.
– Davor
Oct 1 '15 at 15:58
@Davor, In over 30 years in the world world I have exactly once gotten a letter saying I was not selected for a job I applied for (and that was one I interviewed for). It is not a common practice. It is not rude; it is the norm.
– HLGEM
Oct 1 '15 at 18:21
@HLGEM - I've only ever applied to like 3 jobs where I was rejected, and I've always received a rejection email, including from MS for an internship. And it doesn't matter if it's the norm or common practice, it's still rude. You're setting up a false dilemma.
– Davor
Oct 2 '15 at 10:54
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
33
down vote
These people are what is known as gatekeepers. It's very easy to tell them not to forward calls from people we don't want to talk to.
Right now, your internship is probably the number one thing on your mind and it is about 1000th on an HR departments. There's no shortage of candidates. They don't make the company any money. And you're not around long enough to cause any major harm if you're a bad hire.
You're going to be on the other end some day. I hope you have the time to take calls from job/internship candidates, but don't count on it.
If they didn't do a bad job, they wouldn't need to answer calls.
– Davor
Oct 1 '15 at 11:39
@davor, they are not necessaarily doing a bad job, they don't have to work on your schedule and take your application as the most important thing in the world. They do have other much more important task to do most of the time.
– HLGEM
Oct 1 '15 at 13:57
@HLGEM not sending rejection emails is a bad job. It's worse than that actually, it's quite rude and disrespectful.
– Davor
Oct 1 '15 at 15:58
@Davor, In over 30 years in the world world I have exactly once gotten a letter saying I was not selected for a job I applied for (and that was one I interviewed for). It is not a common practice. It is not rude; it is the norm.
– HLGEM
Oct 1 '15 at 18:21
@HLGEM - I've only ever applied to like 3 jobs where I was rejected, and I've always received a rejection email, including from MS for an internship. And it doesn't matter if it's the norm or common practice, it's still rude. You're setting up a false dilemma.
– Davor
Oct 2 '15 at 10:54
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
33
down vote
up vote
33
down vote
These people are what is known as gatekeepers. It's very easy to tell them not to forward calls from people we don't want to talk to.
Right now, your internship is probably the number one thing on your mind and it is about 1000th on an HR departments. There's no shortage of candidates. They don't make the company any money. And you're not around long enough to cause any major harm if you're a bad hire.
You're going to be on the other end some day. I hope you have the time to take calls from job/internship candidates, but don't count on it.
These people are what is known as gatekeepers. It's very easy to tell them not to forward calls from people we don't want to talk to.
Right now, your internship is probably the number one thing on your mind and it is about 1000th on an HR departments. There's no shortage of candidates. They don't make the company any money. And you're not around long enough to cause any major harm if you're a bad hire.
You're going to be on the other end some day. I hope you have the time to take calls from job/internship candidates, but don't count on it.
answered Sep 30 '15 at 13:45
user8365
If they didn't do a bad job, they wouldn't need to answer calls.
– Davor
Oct 1 '15 at 11:39
@davor, they are not necessaarily doing a bad job, they don't have to work on your schedule and take your application as the most important thing in the world. They do have other much more important task to do most of the time.
– HLGEM
Oct 1 '15 at 13:57
@HLGEM not sending rejection emails is a bad job. It's worse than that actually, it's quite rude and disrespectful.
– Davor
Oct 1 '15 at 15:58
@Davor, In over 30 years in the world world I have exactly once gotten a letter saying I was not selected for a job I applied for (and that was one I interviewed for). It is not a common practice. It is not rude; it is the norm.
– HLGEM
Oct 1 '15 at 18:21
@HLGEM - I've only ever applied to like 3 jobs where I was rejected, and I've always received a rejection email, including from MS for an internship. And it doesn't matter if it's the norm or common practice, it's still rude. You're setting up a false dilemma.
– Davor
Oct 2 '15 at 10:54
suggest improvements |Â
If they didn't do a bad job, they wouldn't need to answer calls.
– Davor
Oct 1 '15 at 11:39
@davor, they are not necessaarily doing a bad job, they don't have to work on your schedule and take your application as the most important thing in the world. They do have other much more important task to do most of the time.
– HLGEM
Oct 1 '15 at 13:57
@HLGEM not sending rejection emails is a bad job. It's worse than that actually, it's quite rude and disrespectful.
– Davor
Oct 1 '15 at 15:58
@Davor, In over 30 years in the world world I have exactly once gotten a letter saying I was not selected for a job I applied for (and that was one I interviewed for). It is not a common practice. It is not rude; it is the norm.
– HLGEM
Oct 1 '15 at 18:21
@HLGEM - I've only ever applied to like 3 jobs where I was rejected, and I've always received a rejection email, including from MS for an internship. And it doesn't matter if it's the norm or common practice, it's still rude. You're setting up a false dilemma.
– Davor
Oct 2 '15 at 10:54
If they didn't do a bad job, they wouldn't need to answer calls.
– Davor
Oct 1 '15 at 11:39
If they didn't do a bad job, they wouldn't need to answer calls.
– Davor
Oct 1 '15 at 11:39
@davor, they are not necessaarily doing a bad job, they don't have to work on your schedule and take your application as the most important thing in the world. They do have other much more important task to do most of the time.
– HLGEM
Oct 1 '15 at 13:57
@davor, they are not necessaarily doing a bad job, they don't have to work on your schedule and take your application as the most important thing in the world. They do have other much more important task to do most of the time.
– HLGEM
Oct 1 '15 at 13:57
@HLGEM not sending rejection emails is a bad job. It's worse than that actually, it's quite rude and disrespectful.
– Davor
Oct 1 '15 at 15:58
@HLGEM not sending rejection emails is a bad job. It's worse than that actually, it's quite rude and disrespectful.
– Davor
Oct 1 '15 at 15:58
@Davor, In over 30 years in the world world I have exactly once gotten a letter saying I was not selected for a job I applied for (and that was one I interviewed for). It is not a common practice. It is not rude; it is the norm.
– HLGEM
Oct 1 '15 at 18:21
@Davor, In over 30 years in the world world I have exactly once gotten a letter saying I was not selected for a job I applied for (and that was one I interviewed for). It is not a common practice. It is not rude; it is the norm.
– HLGEM
Oct 1 '15 at 18:21
@HLGEM - I've only ever applied to like 3 jobs where I was rejected, and I've always received a rejection email, including from MS for an internship. And it doesn't matter if it's the norm or common practice, it's still rude. You're setting up a false dilemma.
– Davor
Oct 2 '15 at 10:54
@HLGEM - I've only ever applied to like 3 jobs where I was rejected, and I've always received a rejection email, including from MS for an internship. And it doesn't matter if it's the norm or common practice, it's still rude. You're setting up a false dilemma.
– Davor
Oct 2 '15 at 10:54
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Because they don't want you to contact them
The answer to the literal question of "Why can I not get ahold of HR to followup on an internship application status?" is that they have explicitly taken steps to prevent you from getting ahold of them to followup on an internship application status. You're likely getting such responses from receptionists because they're doing their job in protecting other employees from undesired contact attempts - you may think of them as a 'meatspace spam filter'.
Companies who have a small number of applicants may choose to treat each application individually.
Companies who have a large amount of applicants may (and often do) choose to implement a process that minimizes time spent on each individual application. For example, for a vacancy with 100 or 300 applicants (common in some industries), you would generally want to spend any meaningful time on only a limited amount of them - you'd have a first stage screening process that would leave you with a manageable amount of candidates (10-20) and take something like a minute per application. 5 minutes per application times 100-300 applications would mean 8-24 working hours for just an initial screening - so that's generally not aceptable.
Throwing out good candidates for random reasons at this stage is okay (because there are more than 10-20 good candidates, and even a perfect screening process will have to eliminate many good candidates w/o consideration); wasting time on individual phone followup is not resonable - they will spend time on the candidates they selected, the rest will get an automated response if the system allows to do that in an efficient way (i.e., no personalized responses or explanations).
This applies for advertised vacancies - cold calling / cold mailing for internship opportunities may often deliberately mean no response at all, ever, and an automatic forward to the trash bin. They're likely not interested in applications, and even less interested in spending time to discuss them.
answered Oct 1 '15 at 11:01
Peteris
617814
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Because they don't want you to contact them
The answer to the literal question of "Why can I not get ahold of HR to followup on an internship application status?" is that they have explicitly taken steps to prevent you from getting ahold of them to followup on an internship application status. You're likely getting such responses from receptionists because they're doing their job in protecting other employees from undesired contact attempts - you may think of them as a 'meatspace spam filter'.
Companies who have a small number of applicants may choose to treat each application individually.
Companies who have a large amount of applicants may (and often do) choose to implement a process that minimizes time spent on each individual application. For example, for a vacancy with 100 or 300 applicants (common in some industries), you would generally want to spend any meaningful time on only a limited amount of them - you'd have a first stage screening process that would leave you with a manageable amount of candidates (10-20) and take something like a minute per application. 5 minutes per application times 100-300 applications would mean 8-24 working hours for just an initial screening - so that's generally not aceptable.
Throwing out good candidates for random reasons at this stage is okay (because there are more than 10-20 good candidates, and even a perfect screening process will have to eliminate many good candidates w/o consideration); wasting time on individual phone followup is not resonable - they will spend time on the candidates they selected, the rest will get an automated response if the system allows to do that in an efficient way (i.e., no personalized responses or explanations).
This applies for advertised vacancies - cold calling / cold mailing for internship opportunities may often deliberately mean no response at all, ever, and an automatic forward to the trash bin. They're likely not interested in applications, and even less interested in spending time to discuss them.
answered Oct 1 '15 at 11:01
Peteris
617814
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Because they don't want you to contact them
The answer to the literal question of "Why can I not get ahold of HR to followup on an internship application status?" is that they have explicitly taken steps to prevent you from getting ahold of them to followup on an internship application status. You're likely getting such responses from receptionists because they're doing their job in protecting other employees from undesired contact attempts - you may think of them as a 'meatspace spam filter'.
Companies who have a small number of applicants may choose to treat each application individually.
Companies who have a large amount of applicants may (and often do) choose to implement a process that minimizes time spent on each individual application. For example, for a vacancy with 100 or 300 applicants (common in some industries), you would generally want to spend any meaningful time on only a limited amount of them - you'd have a first stage screening process that would leave you with a manageable amount of candidates (10-20) and take something like a minute per application. 5 minutes per application times 100-300 applications would mean 8-24 working hours for just an initial screening - so that's generally not aceptable.
Throwing out good candidates for random reasons at this stage is okay (because there are more than 10-20 good candidates, and even a perfect screening process will have to eliminate many good candidates w/o consideration); wasting time on individual phone followup is not resonable - they will spend time on the candidates they selected, the rest will get an automated response if the system allows to do that in an efficient way (i.e., no personalized responses or explanations).
This applies for advertised vacancies - cold calling / cold mailing for internship opportunities may often deliberately mean no response at all, ever, and an automatic forward to the trash bin. They're likely not interested in applications, and even less interested in spending time to discuss them.
answered Oct 1 '15 at 11:01
Peteris
617814
Because they don't want you to contact them
The answer to the literal question of "Why can I not get ahold of HR to followup on an internship application status?" is that they have explicitly taken steps to prevent you from getting ahold of them to followup on an internship application status. You're likely getting such responses from receptionists because they're doing their job in protecting other employees from undesired contact attempts - you may think of them as a 'meatspace spam filter'.
Companies who have a small number of applicants may choose to treat each application individually.
Companies who have a large amount of applicants may (and often do) choose to implement a process that minimizes time spent on each individual application. For example, for a vacancy with 100 or 300 applicants (common in some industries), you would generally want to spend any meaningful time on only a limited amount of them - you'd have a first stage screening process that would leave you with a manageable amount of candidates (10-20) and take something like a minute per application. 5 minutes per application times 100-300 applications would mean 8-24 working hours for just an initial screening - so that's generally not aceptable.
Throwing out good candidates for random reasons at this stage is okay (because there are more than 10-20 good candidates, and even a perfect screening process will have to eliminate many good candidates w/o consideration); wasting time on individual phone followup is not resonable - they will spend time on the candidates they selected, the rest will get an automated response if the system allows to do that in an efficient way (i.e., no personalized responses or explanations).
This applies for advertised vacancies - cold calling / cold mailing for internship opportunities may often deliberately mean no response at all, ever, and an automatic forward to the trash bin. They're likely not interested in applications, and even less interested in spending time to discuss them.
answered Oct 1 '15 at 11:01
Peteris
617814
answered Oct 1 '15 at 11:01
Peteris
617814
answered Oct 1 '15 at 11:01
Peteris
617814
answered Oct 1 '15 at 11:01
Peteris
617814
617814
suggest improvements |Â
suggest improvements |Â
6
Have you tried emailing the person in charge of the internship recruitment? How long has it been since you applied?
– Brandin
Sep 30 '15 at 13:46
@Brandin generally only mentions a general email with no names available. Waited ~2 weeks.
– Antonio
Sep 30 '15 at 13:48
11
On a scale of 1-10 in importance to HR, hiring interns is a 1-3. They do much more than hire and, even in hiring, permanent employees are far more important to them. 2 weeks is nothing to wait for an internship decision. I assure you that if they are interested, they will contact you. Move on and keep applying rather than spin your wheels making annoying phone calls.
– HLGEM
Sep 30 '15 at 13:56
5
"I have tried on multiple occasions to call the Human Resources department regarding my internship applications," There's your problem Aside from the fact that you don't ever call for stuff like this any more, you can get away with contacting HR to request an update once between interviews/decisions and then only after a considerable amount of time has passed since the last contact with the company (weeks, not days, let alone hours).
– Lilienthal♦
Sep 30 '15 at 14:34
Hi Mike, I made an edit to this to make it more generic and more easily answerable in a general sense. It was picking up some close votes and hopefully this makes it more on topic here. No one can know in your specific case why (except their HR) but there are definitely some good and more common reasons for this.
– Elysian Fields♦
Sep 30 '15 at 16:43