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How to counter limited managers whose style is based on making experts talk?
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In my company there is a small group of junior managers with almost zero technical background. Most have a PhD, but they mainly repeat quotes from LinkedIn and from their mentors.
This is especially annoying when discussing projects, because they want to lead the projects while having almost no idea about what is required.
The conversation is systematically like:
manager: "this is a very important project, we need to process Big Data and I want you to lead the project and collect all required resources"
expert: "I see, but what are we trying to do?"
manager: "you are the expert, why don't you tell me?"
And at this point there are two options:
don't tell the ******, and this is more or less insubordination plus refusing to help with an important project;
take responsibility and explain the project back to the "project lead", listing all questions and resources of the case.
Of course, the differently skilled manager then moves on as the lead of this project, getting praised for his ability to lead highly qualified experts to deliver successful projects. At the end of the year the expert gets enough bonus to go out for a nice dinner, while the manager changes car.
My question is: how do you counter the "[you are expert] you tell me?"
communication manager conversation
edited Oct 7 '15 at 23:01
Elysian Fields♦
96.8k46292449
asked Oct 7 '15 at 17:49
Monoandale
2,72041846
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
-2
down vote
favorite
In my company there is a small group of junior managers with almost zero technical background. Most have a PhD, but they mainly repeat quotes from LinkedIn and from their mentors.
This is especially annoying when discussing projects, because they want to lead the projects while having almost no idea about what is required.
The conversation is systematically like:
manager: "this is a very important project, we need to process Big Data and I want you to lead the project and collect all required resources"
expert: "I see, but what are we trying to do?"
manager: "you are the expert, why don't you tell me?"
And at this point there are two options:
don't tell the ******, and this is more or less insubordination plus refusing to help with an important project;
take responsibility and explain the project back to the "project lead", listing all questions and resources of the case.
Of course, the differently skilled manager then moves on as the lead of this project, getting praised for his ability to lead highly qualified experts to deliver successful projects. At the end of the year the expert gets enough bonus to go out for a nice dinner, while the manager changes car.
My question is: how do you counter the "[you are expert] you tell me?"
communication manager conversation
edited Oct 7 '15 at 23:01
Elysian Fields♦
96.8k46292449
asked Oct 7 '15 at 17:49
Monoandale
2,72041846
6
I think you may be exaggerating a bit. Really all you get is "process Big Data" with no definition of what the process is supposed to deliver?
– paparazzo
Oct 7 '15 at 18:14
8
If you take choice number 1 often, you will find eventually yourself out of work. It is your job as the technical expert to provide technical advice. Not the mangers job.
– HLGEM
Oct 7 '15 at 18:40
2
I second @HLGEM's comment. If the reward structure is unbalanced, become a manager. If figuring out all the technical aspects seems unfair, become a manager. Although I suspect you might not have the full picture of the stress, sucking up (with one's own and subordinates' job security in mind), and sh*t-shielding that competent management entails... The grass does often seem greener somewhere, until we go over to somewhere and find out it was only an optical illusion caused by skewed perspective ;)
– A.S
Oct 7 '15 at 19:25
3
Is your manager really not saying what the objective is? Or is he just not telling you how he wants you to do it?
– DJClayworth
Oct 7 '15 at 19:45
2
This question is bogus. There's no way the manager is telling the expert to do a project without a stated objective. After all, how can the manager get praised for achieving an unstated objective?
– Chan-Ho Suh
Oct 8 '15 at 0:25
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
-2
down vote
favorite
up vote
-2
down vote
favorite
In my company there is a small group of junior managers with almost zero technical background. Most have a PhD, but they mainly repeat quotes from LinkedIn and from their mentors.
This is especially annoying when discussing projects, because they want to lead the projects while having almost no idea about what is required.
The conversation is systematically like:
manager: "this is a very important project, we need to process Big Data and I want you to lead the project and collect all required resources"
expert: "I see, but what are we trying to do?"
manager: "you are the expert, why don't you tell me?"
And at this point there are two options:
don't tell the ******, and this is more or less insubordination plus refusing to help with an important project;
take responsibility and explain the project back to the "project lead", listing all questions and resources of the case.
Of course, the differently skilled manager then moves on as the lead of this project, getting praised for his ability to lead highly qualified experts to deliver successful projects. At the end of the year the expert gets enough bonus to go out for a nice dinner, while the manager changes car.
My question is: how do you counter the "[you are expert] you tell me?"
communication manager conversation
edited Oct 7 '15 at 23:01
Elysian Fields♦
96.8k46292449
asked Oct 7 '15 at 17:49
Monoandale
2,72041846
In my company there is a small group of junior managers with almost zero technical background. Most have a PhD, but they mainly repeat quotes from LinkedIn and from their mentors.
This is especially annoying when discussing projects, because they want to lead the projects while having almost no idea about what is required.
The conversation is systematically like:
manager: "this is a very important project, we need to process Big Data and I want you to lead the project and collect all required resources"
expert: "I see, but what are we trying to do?"
manager: "you are the expert, why don't you tell me?"
And at this point there are two options:
don't tell the ******, and this is more or less insubordination plus refusing to help with an important project;
take responsibility and explain the project back to the "project lead", listing all questions and resources of the case.
Of course, the differently skilled manager then moves on as the lead of this project, getting praised for his ability to lead highly qualified experts to deliver successful projects. At the end of the year the expert gets enough bonus to go out for a nice dinner, while the manager changes car.
My question is: how do you counter the "[you are expert] you tell me?"
communication manager conversation
edited Oct 7 '15 at 23:01
Elysian Fields♦
96.8k46292449
asked Oct 7 '15 at 17:49
Monoandale
2,72041846
edited Oct 7 '15 at 23:01
Elysian Fields♦
96.8k46292449
edited Oct 7 '15 at 23:01
Elysian Fields♦
96.8k46292449
edited Oct 7 '15 at 23:01
Elysian Fields♦
96.8k46292449
96.8k46292449
asked Oct 7 '15 at 17:49
Monoandale
2,72041846
asked Oct 7 '15 at 17:49
Monoandale
2,72041846
asked Oct 7 '15 at 17:49
Monoandale
2,72041846
2,72041846
6
I think you may be exaggerating a bit. Really all you get is "process Big Data" with no definition of what the process is supposed to deliver?
– paparazzo
Oct 7 '15 at 18:14
8
If you take choice number 1 often, you will find eventually yourself out of work. It is your job as the technical expert to provide technical advice. Not the mangers job.
– HLGEM
Oct 7 '15 at 18:40
2
I second @HLGEM's comment. If the reward structure is unbalanced, become a manager. If figuring out all the technical aspects seems unfair, become a manager. Although I suspect you might not have the full picture of the stress, sucking up (with one's own and subordinates' job security in mind), and sh*t-shielding that competent management entails... The grass does often seem greener somewhere, until we go over to somewhere and find out it was only an optical illusion caused by skewed perspective ;)
– A.S
Oct 7 '15 at 19:25
3
Is your manager really not saying what the objective is? Or is he just not telling you how he wants you to do it?
– DJClayworth
Oct 7 '15 at 19:45
2
This question is bogus. There's no way the manager is telling the expert to do a project without a stated objective. After all, how can the manager get praised for achieving an unstated objective?
– Chan-Ho Suh
Oct 8 '15 at 0:25
 |Â
show 1 more comment
6
I think you may be exaggerating a bit. Really all you get is "process Big Data" with no definition of what the process is supposed to deliver?
– paparazzo
Oct 7 '15 at 18:14
8
If you take choice number 1 often, you will find eventually yourself out of work. It is your job as the technical expert to provide technical advice. Not the mangers job.
– HLGEM
Oct 7 '15 at 18:40
2
I second @HLGEM's comment. If the reward structure is unbalanced, become a manager. If figuring out all the technical aspects seems unfair, become a manager. Although I suspect you might not have the full picture of the stress, sucking up (with one's own and subordinates' job security in mind), and sh*t-shielding that competent management entails... The grass does often seem greener somewhere, until we go over to somewhere and find out it was only an optical illusion caused by skewed perspective ;)
– A.S
Oct 7 '15 at 19:25
3
Is your manager really not saying what the objective is? Or is he just not telling you how he wants you to do it?
– DJClayworth
Oct 7 '15 at 19:45
2
This question is bogus. There's no way the manager is telling the expert to do a project without a stated objective. After all, how can the manager get praised for achieving an unstated objective?
– Chan-Ho Suh
Oct 8 '15 at 0:25
6
6
I think you may be exaggerating a bit. Really all you get is "process Big Data" with no definition of what the process is supposed to deliver?
– paparazzo
Oct 7 '15 at 18:14
I think you may be exaggerating a bit. Really all you get is "process Big Data" with no definition of what the process is supposed to deliver?
– paparazzo
Oct 7 '15 at 18:14
8
8
If you take choice number 1 often, you will find eventually yourself out of work. It is your job as the technical expert to provide technical advice. Not the mangers job.
– HLGEM
Oct 7 '15 at 18:40
If you take choice number 1 often, you will find eventually yourself out of work. It is your job as the technical expert to provide technical advice. Not the mangers job.
– HLGEM
Oct 7 '15 at 18:40
2
2
I second @HLGEM's comment. If the reward structure is unbalanced, become a manager. If figuring out all the technical aspects seems unfair, become a manager. Although I suspect you might not have the full picture of the stress, sucking up (with one's own and subordinates' job security in mind), and sh*t-shielding that competent management entails... The grass does often seem greener somewhere, until we go over to somewhere and find out it was only an optical illusion caused by skewed perspective ;)
– A.S
Oct 7 '15 at 19:25
I second @HLGEM's comment. If the reward structure is unbalanced, become a manager. If figuring out all the technical aspects seems unfair, become a manager. Although I suspect you might not have the full picture of the stress, sucking up (with one's own and subordinates' job security in mind), and sh*t-shielding that competent management entails... The grass does often seem greener somewhere, until we go over to somewhere and find out it was only an optical illusion caused by skewed perspective ;)
– A.S
Oct 7 '15 at 19:25
3
3
Is your manager really not saying what the objective is? Or is he just not telling you how he wants you to do it?
– DJClayworth
Oct 7 '15 at 19:45
Is your manager really not saying what the objective is? Or is he just not telling you how he wants you to do it?
– DJClayworth
Oct 7 '15 at 19:45
2
2
This question is bogus. There's no way the manager is telling the expert to do a project without a stated objective. After all, how can the manager get praised for achieving an unstated objective?
– Chan-Ho Suh
Oct 8 '15 at 0:25
This question is bogus. There's no way the manager is telling the expert to do a project without a stated objective. After all, how can the manager get praised for achieving an unstated objective?
– Chan-Ho Suh
Oct 8 '15 at 0:25
 |Â
show 1 more comment
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
up vote
13
down vote
accepted
Let's separate out two possibilities.
Case 1: your manager is saying things like: "We need a database which tracks all customer interactions, so that we can find out which customers are consuming support resources and compare them against the revenue generated", but isn't giving you any guidance on what kind of database you need, what language to code it in, things like that. This sounds like what is happening, based on his comments like "you are the expert, tell me".
If that is the case, then this is a sign that your manager trusts you and believes you have the expertise to make those decisions for yourself. Congratulations - you have a good manager who will let you do things the way you think is best. Lots of managers work like this, especially if they have no technical background. After all, why would they be better at choosing what kind of database to use than someone who has the right technical background.
Case 2: Your manager really isn't telling you what the objective of the project is. This would be very weird. Ask him to clarify, and give you more description of what he wants the system to do (as opposed to how he wants it done).
One problem that can arise is that, if you are used to being told how to do things instead of what to do, is that you may never have had to decide how to do things for yourself. If that's the case, say so to your boss. Ask for extra training if you need it, or ask to spend some time researching any decisions you have to make.
Another problem is that the statement of the objective may be too vague for you to start work. This is both likely and normal. You need to make the requirements more explicit. You can do so by writing down all the things you need to know in order to start work, and getting the manager or someone else to answer the questions. This is called "Requirements gathering". Your manager will probably help you, but he needs to know your questions, otherwise he will be giving you useless information.
answered Oct 7 '15 at 19:52
DJClayworth
40.8k886146
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
15
down vote
I generally push back in writing with the questions for what I need them to get for me for the requirements if they fail to provide adequate requirements. However, project mangers are often not technical and they do not need to be (although it certainly helps a little). Project management is skill in itself and they may be contributing far more to the project than you realize (unless you like dealing with budget, resource and political issues). It is a compliment that they trust your professional judgement on technical details. Plenty of people are upset that the managers pay too little attention to their professional opinion.
It appears that what you are really upset about is the reward structure in your company. I hate to tell this but but that structure is common just about everywhere. Managers get larger bonuses in most companies. Higher managers get higher bonuses. If you are unhappy with that, then you need to become a manager. Since higher managers are the people who authorize the budget for bonuses, why should this be a surprise?
answered Oct 7 '15 at 18:38
HLGEM
133k25226489
1
Some high tech companies have overlapping pay systems in which there is a non-management promotion track with manger-like salaries and stock options etc.. That worked well for me, because I did not want to become a manager.
– Patricia Shanahan
Oct 7 '15 at 22:50
1
A few do yes (emphasis on the word few), however that is clearly not the case at the OPs workplace.
– HLGEM
Oct 8 '15 at 14:20
2
In effect, there are two fixes - become a manager or move to a company that rewards the type of work the OP does.
– Patricia Shanahan
Oct 8 '15 at 14:24
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
8
down vote
A really simple approach could be:
I'm the expert on how to do this, you are the expert on what we are trying to achieve. I can't do the how unless I know the what!
It reinforces that yes, you are the expert in doing the work but you still need guidance from those who have the information on the goals and rationale for the project to be ensure you build a solution that will actually solve the original problem.
answered Oct 7 '15 at 21:08
Jane S♦
40.8k17125159
2
I like this answer, defines roles, which always makes things more productive
– Kilisi
Oct 7 '15 at 21:34
3
I was on a Systems Engineering course last month and that reminds me of a great way of putting it : Manager ensures we build the right thing; expert ensures we built the thing right.
– Puzzled
Oct 8 '15 at 6:57
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
6
down vote
My question is: how do you counter the "[you are expert] you tell me?"
"Counter" is the wrong word here. You aren't opponents or in combat. The only way to deal with what you call "limited managers" is education.
If your boss can't or won't handle it, then you (or someone) need to educate all your stakeholders as to what can be done, what can't be done, and the roles of each stakeholder on the project. You (or someone) needs to help project managers understand how to use your services in getting their projects done. As a Director of Quality Assurance, I learned over the years that we sometimes needed to educate Product Manager, Project Managers, Developers and others as to what we do, what we need from others, and how they can help everyone succeed in their projects.
Clearly you need input from project managers and others to do your job. They need to know that this is necessary to succeed, and they need to be put into a position to provide that input. Training and education can get them there.
Consider setting up a series of training sessions and inviting the relevant stakeholders. Some companies have training as a standard part of their culture. If not, you have the opportunity to get this started.
Soliciting the help of others in the stakeholder group to get the training going can make them feel part of the improvement process. Often, this makes for a more enthusiastic set of sessions.
Of course, the differently skilled manager then moves on as the lead
of this project, getting praised for his ability to lead highly
qualified experts to deliver successful projects. At the end of the
year the expert gets enough bonus to go out for a nice dinner, while
the manager changes car.
Not really relevant for the question. You would do best to leave this sort of jealousy out of your conversations and trainings at work - they can only hinder your progress.
answered Oct 7 '15 at 22:41
Joe Strazzere
223k104653921
suggest improvements |Â
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4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
13
down vote
accepted
Let's separate out two possibilities.
Case 1: your manager is saying things like: "We need a database which tracks all customer interactions, so that we can find out which customers are consuming support resources and compare them against the revenue generated", but isn't giving you any guidance on what kind of database you need, what language to code it in, things like that. This sounds like what is happening, based on his comments like "you are the expert, tell me".
If that is the case, then this is a sign that your manager trusts you and believes you have the expertise to make those decisions for yourself. Congratulations - you have a good manager who will let you do things the way you think is best. Lots of managers work like this, especially if they have no technical background. After all, why would they be better at choosing what kind of database to use than someone who has the right technical background.
Case 2: Your manager really isn't telling you what the objective of the project is. This would be very weird. Ask him to clarify, and give you more description of what he wants the system to do (as opposed to how he wants it done).
One problem that can arise is that, if you are used to being told how to do things instead of what to do, is that you may never have had to decide how to do things for yourself. If that's the case, say so to your boss. Ask for extra training if you need it, or ask to spend some time researching any decisions you have to make.
Another problem is that the statement of the objective may be too vague for you to start work. This is both likely and normal. You need to make the requirements more explicit. You can do so by writing down all the things you need to know in order to start work, and getting the manager or someone else to answer the questions. This is called "Requirements gathering". Your manager will probably help you, but he needs to know your questions, otherwise he will be giving you useless information.
answered Oct 7 '15 at 19:52
DJClayworth
40.8k886146
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
13
down vote
accepted
Let's separate out two possibilities.
Case 1: your manager is saying things like: "We need a database which tracks all customer interactions, so that we can find out which customers are consuming support resources and compare them against the revenue generated", but isn't giving you any guidance on what kind of database you need, what language to code it in, things like that. This sounds like what is happening, based on his comments like "you are the expert, tell me".
If that is the case, then this is a sign that your manager trusts you and believes you have the expertise to make those decisions for yourself. Congratulations - you have a good manager who will let you do things the way you think is best. Lots of managers work like this, especially if they have no technical background. After all, why would they be better at choosing what kind of database to use than someone who has the right technical background.
Case 2: Your manager really isn't telling you what the objective of the project is. This would be very weird. Ask him to clarify, and give you more description of what he wants the system to do (as opposed to how he wants it done).
One problem that can arise is that, if you are used to being told how to do things instead of what to do, is that you may never have had to decide how to do things for yourself. If that's the case, say so to your boss. Ask for extra training if you need it, or ask to spend some time researching any decisions you have to make.
Another problem is that the statement of the objective may be too vague for you to start work. This is both likely and normal. You need to make the requirements more explicit. You can do so by writing down all the things you need to know in order to start work, and getting the manager or someone else to answer the questions. This is called "Requirements gathering". Your manager will probably help you, but he needs to know your questions, otherwise he will be giving you useless information.
answered Oct 7 '15 at 19:52
DJClayworth
40.8k886146
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
13
down vote
accepted
up vote
13
down vote
accepted
Let's separate out two possibilities.
Case 1: your manager is saying things like: "We need a database which tracks all customer interactions, so that we can find out which customers are consuming support resources and compare them against the revenue generated", but isn't giving you any guidance on what kind of database you need, what language to code it in, things like that. This sounds like what is happening, based on his comments like "you are the expert, tell me".
If that is the case, then this is a sign that your manager trusts you and believes you have the expertise to make those decisions for yourself. Congratulations - you have a good manager who will let you do things the way you think is best. Lots of managers work like this, especially if they have no technical background. After all, why would they be better at choosing what kind of database to use than someone who has the right technical background.
Case 2: Your manager really isn't telling you what the objective of the project is. This would be very weird. Ask him to clarify, and give you more description of what he wants the system to do (as opposed to how he wants it done).
One problem that can arise is that, if you are used to being told how to do things instead of what to do, is that you may never have had to decide how to do things for yourself. If that's the case, say so to your boss. Ask for extra training if you need it, or ask to spend some time researching any decisions you have to make.
Another problem is that the statement of the objective may be too vague for you to start work. This is both likely and normal. You need to make the requirements more explicit. You can do so by writing down all the things you need to know in order to start work, and getting the manager or someone else to answer the questions. This is called "Requirements gathering". Your manager will probably help you, but he needs to know your questions, otherwise he will be giving you useless information.
answered Oct 7 '15 at 19:52
DJClayworth
40.8k886146
Let's separate out two possibilities.
Case 1: your manager is saying things like: "We need a database which tracks all customer interactions, so that we can find out which customers are consuming support resources and compare them against the revenue generated", but isn't giving you any guidance on what kind of database you need, what language to code it in, things like that. This sounds like what is happening, based on his comments like "you are the expert, tell me".
If that is the case, then this is a sign that your manager trusts you and believes you have the expertise to make those decisions for yourself. Congratulations - you have a good manager who will let you do things the way you think is best. Lots of managers work like this, especially if they have no technical background. After all, why would they be better at choosing what kind of database to use than someone who has the right technical background.
Case 2: Your manager really isn't telling you what the objective of the project is. This would be very weird. Ask him to clarify, and give you more description of what he wants the system to do (as opposed to how he wants it done).
One problem that can arise is that, if you are used to being told how to do things instead of what to do, is that you may never have had to decide how to do things for yourself. If that's the case, say so to your boss. Ask for extra training if you need it, or ask to spend some time researching any decisions you have to make.
Another problem is that the statement of the objective may be too vague for you to start work. This is both likely and normal. You need to make the requirements more explicit. You can do so by writing down all the things you need to know in order to start work, and getting the manager or someone else to answer the questions. This is called "Requirements gathering". Your manager will probably help you, but he needs to know your questions, otherwise he will be giving you useless information.
answered Oct 7 '15 at 19:52
DJClayworth
40.8k886146
edited Oct 7 '15 at 20:56
answered Oct 7 '15 at 19:52
DJClayworth
40.8k886146
answered Oct 7 '15 at 19:52
DJClayworth
40.8k886146
answered Oct 7 '15 at 19:52
DJClayworth
40.8k886146
40.8k886146
suggest improvements |Â
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
15
down vote
I generally push back in writing with the questions for what I need them to get for me for the requirements if they fail to provide adequate requirements. However, project mangers are often not technical and they do not need to be (although it certainly helps a little). Project management is skill in itself and they may be contributing far more to the project than you realize (unless you like dealing with budget, resource and political issues). It is a compliment that they trust your professional judgement on technical details. Plenty of people are upset that the managers pay too little attention to their professional opinion.
It appears that what you are really upset about is the reward structure in your company. I hate to tell this but but that structure is common just about everywhere. Managers get larger bonuses in most companies. Higher managers get higher bonuses. If you are unhappy with that, then you need to become a manager. Since higher managers are the people who authorize the budget for bonuses, why should this be a surprise?
answered Oct 7 '15 at 18:38
HLGEM
133k25226489
1
Some high tech companies have overlapping pay systems in which there is a non-management promotion track with manger-like salaries and stock options etc.. That worked well for me, because I did not want to become a manager.
– Patricia Shanahan
Oct 7 '15 at 22:50
1
A few do yes (emphasis on the word few), however that is clearly not the case at the OPs workplace.
– HLGEM
Oct 8 '15 at 14:20
2
In effect, there are two fixes - become a manager or move to a company that rewards the type of work the OP does.
– Patricia Shanahan
Oct 8 '15 at 14:24
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
15
down vote
I generally push back in writing with the questions for what I need them to get for me for the requirements if they fail to provide adequate requirements. However, project mangers are often not technical and they do not need to be (although it certainly helps a little). Project management is skill in itself and they may be contributing far more to the project than you realize (unless you like dealing with budget, resource and political issues). It is a compliment that they trust your professional judgement on technical details. Plenty of people are upset that the managers pay too little attention to their professional opinion.
It appears that what you are really upset about is the reward structure in your company. I hate to tell this but but that structure is common just about everywhere. Managers get larger bonuses in most companies. Higher managers get higher bonuses. If you are unhappy with that, then you need to become a manager. Since higher managers are the people who authorize the budget for bonuses, why should this be a surprise?
answered Oct 7 '15 at 18:38
HLGEM
133k25226489
1
Some high tech companies have overlapping pay systems in which there is a non-management promotion track with manger-like salaries and stock options etc.. That worked well for me, because I did not want to become a manager.
– Patricia Shanahan
Oct 7 '15 at 22:50
1
A few do yes (emphasis on the word few), however that is clearly not the case at the OPs workplace.
– HLGEM
Oct 8 '15 at 14:20
2
In effect, there are two fixes - become a manager or move to a company that rewards the type of work the OP does.
– Patricia Shanahan
Oct 8 '15 at 14:24
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
15
down vote
up vote
15
down vote
I generally push back in writing with the questions for what I need them to get for me for the requirements if they fail to provide adequate requirements. However, project mangers are often not technical and they do not need to be (although it certainly helps a little). Project management is skill in itself and they may be contributing far more to the project than you realize (unless you like dealing with budget, resource and political issues). It is a compliment that they trust your professional judgement on technical details. Plenty of people are upset that the managers pay too little attention to their professional opinion.
It appears that what you are really upset about is the reward structure in your company. I hate to tell this but but that structure is common just about everywhere. Managers get larger bonuses in most companies. Higher managers get higher bonuses. If you are unhappy with that, then you need to become a manager. Since higher managers are the people who authorize the budget for bonuses, why should this be a surprise?
answered Oct 7 '15 at 18:38
HLGEM
133k25226489
I generally push back in writing with the questions for what I need them to get for me for the requirements if they fail to provide adequate requirements. However, project mangers are often not technical and they do not need to be (although it certainly helps a little). Project management is skill in itself and they may be contributing far more to the project than you realize (unless you like dealing with budget, resource and political issues). It is a compliment that they trust your professional judgement on technical details. Plenty of people are upset that the managers pay too little attention to their professional opinion.
It appears that what you are really upset about is the reward structure in your company. I hate to tell this but but that structure is common just about everywhere. Managers get larger bonuses in most companies. Higher managers get higher bonuses. If you are unhappy with that, then you need to become a manager. Since higher managers are the people who authorize the budget for bonuses, why should this be a surprise?
answered Oct 7 '15 at 18:38
HLGEM
133k25226489
edited May 15 '17 at 13:46
answered Oct 7 '15 at 18:38
HLGEM
133k25226489
answered Oct 7 '15 at 18:38
HLGEM
133k25226489
answered Oct 7 '15 at 18:38
HLGEM
133k25226489
133k25226489
1
Some high tech companies have overlapping pay systems in which there is a non-management promotion track with manger-like salaries and stock options etc.. That worked well for me, because I did not want to become a manager.
– Patricia Shanahan
Oct 7 '15 at 22:50
1
A few do yes (emphasis on the word few), however that is clearly not the case at the OPs workplace.
– HLGEM
Oct 8 '15 at 14:20
2
In effect, there are two fixes - become a manager or move to a company that rewards the type of work the OP does.
– Patricia Shanahan
Oct 8 '15 at 14:24
suggest improvements |Â
1
Some high tech companies have overlapping pay systems in which there is a non-management promotion track with manger-like salaries and stock options etc.. That worked well for me, because I did not want to become a manager.
– Patricia Shanahan
Oct 7 '15 at 22:50
1
A few do yes (emphasis on the word few), however that is clearly not the case at the OPs workplace.
– HLGEM
Oct 8 '15 at 14:20
2
In effect, there are two fixes - become a manager or move to a company that rewards the type of work the OP does.
– Patricia Shanahan
Oct 8 '15 at 14:24
1
1
Some high tech companies have overlapping pay systems in which there is a non-management promotion track with manger-like salaries and stock options etc.. That worked well for me, because I did not want to become a manager.
– Patricia Shanahan
Oct 7 '15 at 22:50
Some high tech companies have overlapping pay systems in which there is a non-management promotion track with manger-like salaries and stock options etc.. That worked well for me, because I did not want to become a manager.
– Patricia Shanahan
Oct 7 '15 at 22:50
1
1
A few do yes (emphasis on the word few), however that is clearly not the case at the OPs workplace.
– HLGEM
Oct 8 '15 at 14:20
A few do yes (emphasis on the word few), however that is clearly not the case at the OPs workplace.
– HLGEM
Oct 8 '15 at 14:20
2
2
In effect, there are two fixes - become a manager or move to a company that rewards the type of work the OP does.
– Patricia Shanahan
Oct 8 '15 at 14:24
In effect, there are two fixes - become a manager or move to a company that rewards the type of work the OP does.
– Patricia Shanahan
Oct 8 '15 at 14:24
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
8
down vote
A really simple approach could be:
I'm the expert on how to do this, you are the expert on what we are trying to achieve. I can't do the how unless I know the what!
It reinforces that yes, you are the expert in doing the work but you still need guidance from those who have the information on the goals and rationale for the project to be ensure you build a solution that will actually solve the original problem.
answered Oct 7 '15 at 21:08
Jane S♦
40.8k17125159
2
I like this answer, defines roles, which always makes things more productive
– Kilisi
Oct 7 '15 at 21:34
3
I was on a Systems Engineering course last month and that reminds me of a great way of putting it : Manager ensures we build the right thing; expert ensures we built the thing right.
– Puzzled
Oct 8 '15 at 6:57
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
8
down vote
A really simple approach could be:
I'm the expert on how to do this, you are the expert on what we are trying to achieve. I can't do the how unless I know the what!
It reinforces that yes, you are the expert in doing the work but you still need guidance from those who have the information on the goals and rationale for the project to be ensure you build a solution that will actually solve the original problem.
answered Oct 7 '15 at 21:08
Jane S♦
40.8k17125159
2
I like this answer, defines roles, which always makes things more productive
– Kilisi
Oct 7 '15 at 21:34
3
I was on a Systems Engineering course last month and that reminds me of a great way of putting it : Manager ensures we build the right thing; expert ensures we built the thing right.
– Puzzled
Oct 8 '15 at 6:57
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
8
down vote
up vote
8
down vote
A really simple approach could be:
I'm the expert on how to do this, you are the expert on what we are trying to achieve. I can't do the how unless I know the what!
It reinforces that yes, you are the expert in doing the work but you still need guidance from those who have the information on the goals and rationale for the project to be ensure you build a solution that will actually solve the original problem.
answered Oct 7 '15 at 21:08
Jane S♦
40.8k17125159
A really simple approach could be:
I'm the expert on how to do this, you are the expert on what we are trying to achieve. I can't do the how unless I know the what!
It reinforces that yes, you are the expert in doing the work but you still need guidance from those who have the information on the goals and rationale for the project to be ensure you build a solution that will actually solve the original problem.
answered Oct 7 '15 at 21:08
Jane S♦
40.8k17125159
answered Oct 7 '15 at 21:08
Jane S♦
40.8k17125159
answered Oct 7 '15 at 21:08
Jane S♦
40.8k17125159
answered Oct 7 '15 at 21:08
Jane S♦
40.8k17125159
40.8k17125159
2
I like this answer, defines roles, which always makes things more productive
– Kilisi
Oct 7 '15 at 21:34
3
I was on a Systems Engineering course last month and that reminds me of a great way of putting it : Manager ensures we build the right thing; expert ensures we built the thing right.
– Puzzled
Oct 8 '15 at 6:57
suggest improvements |Â
2
I like this answer, defines roles, which always makes things more productive
– Kilisi
Oct 7 '15 at 21:34
3
I was on a Systems Engineering course last month and that reminds me of a great way of putting it : Manager ensures we build the right thing; expert ensures we built the thing right.
– Puzzled
Oct 8 '15 at 6:57
2
2
I like this answer, defines roles, which always makes things more productive
– Kilisi
Oct 7 '15 at 21:34
I like this answer, defines roles, which always makes things more productive
– Kilisi
Oct 7 '15 at 21:34
3
3
I was on a Systems Engineering course last month and that reminds me of a great way of putting it : Manager ensures we build the right thing; expert ensures we built the thing right.
– Puzzled
Oct 8 '15 at 6:57
I was on a Systems Engineering course last month and that reminds me of a great way of putting it : Manager ensures we build the right thing; expert ensures we built the thing right.
– Puzzled
Oct 8 '15 at 6:57
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
6
down vote
My question is: how do you counter the "[you are expert] you tell me?"
"Counter" is the wrong word here. You aren't opponents or in combat. The only way to deal with what you call "limited managers" is education.
If your boss can't or won't handle it, then you (or someone) need to educate all your stakeholders as to what can be done, what can't be done, and the roles of each stakeholder on the project. You (or someone) needs to help project managers understand how to use your services in getting their projects done. As a Director of Quality Assurance, I learned over the years that we sometimes needed to educate Product Manager, Project Managers, Developers and others as to what we do, what we need from others, and how they can help everyone succeed in their projects.
Clearly you need input from project managers and others to do your job. They need to know that this is necessary to succeed, and they need to be put into a position to provide that input. Training and education can get them there.
Consider setting up a series of training sessions and inviting the relevant stakeholders. Some companies have training as a standard part of their culture. If not, you have the opportunity to get this started.
Soliciting the help of others in the stakeholder group to get the training going can make them feel part of the improvement process. Often, this makes for a more enthusiastic set of sessions.
Of course, the differently skilled manager then moves on as the lead
of this project, getting praised for his ability to lead highly
qualified experts to deliver successful projects. At the end of the
year the expert gets enough bonus to go out for a nice dinner, while
the manager changes car.
Not really relevant for the question. You would do best to leave this sort of jealousy out of your conversations and trainings at work - they can only hinder your progress.
answered Oct 7 '15 at 22:41
Joe Strazzere
223k104653921
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
6
down vote
My question is: how do you counter the "[you are expert] you tell me?"
"Counter" is the wrong word here. You aren't opponents or in combat. The only way to deal with what you call "limited managers" is education.
If your boss can't or won't handle it, then you (or someone) need to educate all your stakeholders as to what can be done, what can't be done, and the roles of each stakeholder on the project. You (or someone) needs to help project managers understand how to use your services in getting their projects done. As a Director of Quality Assurance, I learned over the years that we sometimes needed to educate Product Manager, Project Managers, Developers and others as to what we do, what we need from others, and how they can help everyone succeed in their projects.
Clearly you need input from project managers and others to do your job. They need to know that this is necessary to succeed, and they need to be put into a position to provide that input. Training and education can get them there.
Consider setting up a series of training sessions and inviting the relevant stakeholders. Some companies have training as a standard part of their culture. If not, you have the opportunity to get this started.
Soliciting the help of others in the stakeholder group to get the training going can make them feel part of the improvement process. Often, this makes for a more enthusiastic set of sessions.
Of course, the differently skilled manager then moves on as the lead
of this project, getting praised for his ability to lead highly
qualified experts to deliver successful projects. At the end of the
year the expert gets enough bonus to go out for a nice dinner, while
the manager changes car.
Not really relevant for the question. You would do best to leave this sort of jealousy out of your conversations and trainings at work - they can only hinder your progress.
answered Oct 7 '15 at 22:41
Joe Strazzere
223k104653921
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
6
down vote
up vote
6
down vote
My question is: how do you counter the "[you are expert] you tell me?"
"Counter" is the wrong word here. You aren't opponents or in combat. The only way to deal with what you call "limited managers" is education.
If your boss can't or won't handle it, then you (or someone) need to educate all your stakeholders as to what can be done, what can't be done, and the roles of each stakeholder on the project. You (or someone) needs to help project managers understand how to use your services in getting their projects done. As a Director of Quality Assurance, I learned over the years that we sometimes needed to educate Product Manager, Project Managers, Developers and others as to what we do, what we need from others, and how they can help everyone succeed in their projects.
Clearly you need input from project managers and others to do your job. They need to know that this is necessary to succeed, and they need to be put into a position to provide that input. Training and education can get them there.
Consider setting up a series of training sessions and inviting the relevant stakeholders. Some companies have training as a standard part of their culture. If not, you have the opportunity to get this started.
Soliciting the help of others in the stakeholder group to get the training going can make them feel part of the improvement process. Often, this makes for a more enthusiastic set of sessions.
Of course, the differently skilled manager then moves on as the lead
of this project, getting praised for his ability to lead highly
qualified experts to deliver successful projects. At the end of the
year the expert gets enough bonus to go out for a nice dinner, while
the manager changes car.
Not really relevant for the question. You would do best to leave this sort of jealousy out of your conversations and trainings at work - they can only hinder your progress.
answered Oct 7 '15 at 22:41
Joe Strazzere
223k104653921
My question is: how do you counter the "[you are expert] you tell me?"
"Counter" is the wrong word here. You aren't opponents or in combat. The only way to deal with what you call "limited managers" is education.
If your boss can't or won't handle it, then you (or someone) need to educate all your stakeholders as to what can be done, what can't be done, and the roles of each stakeholder on the project. You (or someone) needs to help project managers understand how to use your services in getting their projects done. As a Director of Quality Assurance, I learned over the years that we sometimes needed to educate Product Manager, Project Managers, Developers and others as to what we do, what we need from others, and how they can help everyone succeed in their projects.
Clearly you need input from project managers and others to do your job. They need to know that this is necessary to succeed, and they need to be put into a position to provide that input. Training and education can get them there.
Consider setting up a series of training sessions and inviting the relevant stakeholders. Some companies have training as a standard part of their culture. If not, you have the opportunity to get this started.
Soliciting the help of others in the stakeholder group to get the training going can make them feel part of the improvement process. Often, this makes for a more enthusiastic set of sessions.
Of course, the differently skilled manager then moves on as the lead
of this project, getting praised for his ability to lead highly
qualified experts to deliver successful projects. At the end of the
year the expert gets enough bonus to go out for a nice dinner, while
the manager changes car.
Not really relevant for the question. You would do best to leave this sort of jealousy out of your conversations and trainings at work - they can only hinder your progress.
answered Oct 7 '15 at 22:41
Joe Strazzere
223k104653921
edited Oct 7 '15 at 23:47
answered Oct 7 '15 at 22:41
Joe Strazzere
223k104653921
answered Oct 7 '15 at 22:41
Joe Strazzere
223k104653921
answered Oct 7 '15 at 22:41
Joe Strazzere
223k104653921
223k104653921
suggest improvements |Â
suggest improvements |Â
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6
I think you may be exaggerating a bit. Really all you get is "process Big Data" with no definition of what the process is supposed to deliver?
– paparazzo
Oct 7 '15 at 18:14
8
If you take choice number 1 often, you will find eventually yourself out of work. It is your job as the technical expert to provide technical advice. Not the mangers job.
– HLGEM
Oct 7 '15 at 18:40
2
I second @HLGEM's comment. If the reward structure is unbalanced, become a manager. If figuring out all the technical aspects seems unfair, become a manager. Although I suspect you might not have the full picture of the stress, sucking up (with one's own and subordinates' job security in mind), and sh*t-shielding that competent management entails... The grass does often seem greener somewhere, until we go over to somewhere and find out it was only an optical illusion caused by skewed perspective ;)
– A.S
Oct 7 '15 at 19:25
3
Is your manager really not saying what the objective is? Or is he just not telling you how he wants you to do it?
– DJClayworth
Oct 7 '15 at 19:45
2
This question is bogus. There's no way the manager is telling the expert to do a project without a stated objective. After all, how can the manager get praised for achieving an unstated objective?
– Chan-Ho Suh
Oct 8 '15 at 0:25