Can PWM affect a brushless DC fan given sufficient time?

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tl;dr - Is driving brushless DC fans using PWM unhealthy for the fan compared to variable but steady DC voltage? If yes, why and how?



The super simple input [PWM] -> MOSFET driver [PWM] -> DC Fan to adjust the speed of DC fans is well known. The DC fan receives a PWM of the same frequency as the input, with sufficient juice from the MOSFET at higher voltage. Ignoring everything else, assume the fan gets a high-current PWM signal swinging between 0-12V at some duty cycle to vary the fan speed, and that the 0-12V levels are clean (no spikes etc).



Say I have a 0.5A, 12V brushless DC fans. These are not PWM fans (i.e. they only have 2 wires). I now drive them using the above PWM circuit to vary their speed. Assume the PWM frequency is around 25 kHz, and that the MOSFET can easily switch at that frequency.



I've read some saying that adjusting the speed of DC fans using a variable DC level voltage is "more healthy" for the fan than using PWM like above.



For the experts out there:



Are there dangers of driving DC fans like the above using PWM (pulsed) instead of steady voltage levels? If yes, what are they, exactly, how they manifest? How important is the PWM frequency (for the fan, assume the MOSFET easily switches at the PWM frequency)?



p.s. I can build a PWM-to-DC circuit (e.g. source follower, etc) but here I'm really only interested to understand the dangers of driving DC fans with PWM.



p.p.s. I have personal experience that suggests PWM may affect them, but here I'm asking a general question. Particular to my case: I've heard clicks coming from all my DC fans when driving them using a PWM signals, particularly at low-duty cycle. Moreover, after a little less than 1 year under continuous operation at various duty cycles (50% being the most prevalent), some of the fans no longer respond to low duty-cycle PWM. Specifically, they still spin at 100% speed when the duty-cycle is 100% (practically 12V steady) but any lower duty cycle results in the fan spinning at a very slow speed, regardless of the actual duty cycle valule -- as if the fan had 2 speeds only (full speed and very low speed). All these fans responded well to PWM before. They still spin freely when pushed by hand (no extra resistance compared to the other fans).










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  • My question was not about debugging my problem, but about whether or not PWM driving is bad for DC fans (I was afraid someone would pick on the former, so I'll remove that piece of text).
    – Normadize
    4 hours ago










  • The coils of the fan are inductors. What do inductors do to pulsing current? They make smooth(er) current. So, at most you will cause a little extra heating in the coils.
    – JRE
    4 hours ago














up vote
1
down vote

favorite












tl;dr - Is driving brushless DC fans using PWM unhealthy for the fan compared to variable but steady DC voltage? If yes, why and how?



The super simple input [PWM] -> MOSFET driver [PWM] -> DC Fan to adjust the speed of DC fans is well known. The DC fan receives a PWM of the same frequency as the input, with sufficient juice from the MOSFET at higher voltage. Ignoring everything else, assume the fan gets a high-current PWM signal swinging between 0-12V at some duty cycle to vary the fan speed, and that the 0-12V levels are clean (no spikes etc).



Say I have a 0.5A, 12V brushless DC fans. These are not PWM fans (i.e. they only have 2 wires). I now drive them using the above PWM circuit to vary their speed. Assume the PWM frequency is around 25 kHz, and that the MOSFET can easily switch at that frequency.



I've read some saying that adjusting the speed of DC fans using a variable DC level voltage is "more healthy" for the fan than using PWM like above.



For the experts out there:



Are there dangers of driving DC fans like the above using PWM (pulsed) instead of steady voltage levels? If yes, what are they, exactly, how they manifest? How important is the PWM frequency (for the fan, assume the MOSFET easily switches at the PWM frequency)?



p.s. I can build a PWM-to-DC circuit (e.g. source follower, etc) but here I'm really only interested to understand the dangers of driving DC fans with PWM.



p.p.s. I have personal experience that suggests PWM may affect them, but here I'm asking a general question. Particular to my case: I've heard clicks coming from all my DC fans when driving them using a PWM signals, particularly at low-duty cycle. Moreover, after a little less than 1 year under continuous operation at various duty cycles (50% being the most prevalent), some of the fans no longer respond to low duty-cycle PWM. Specifically, they still spin at 100% speed when the duty-cycle is 100% (practically 12V steady) but any lower duty cycle results in the fan spinning at a very slow speed, regardless of the actual duty cycle valule -- as if the fan had 2 speeds only (full speed and very low speed). All these fans responded well to PWM before. They still spin freely when pushed by hand (no extra resistance compared to the other fans).










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  • My question was not about debugging my problem, but about whether or not PWM driving is bad for DC fans (I was afraid someone would pick on the former, so I'll remove that piece of text).
    – Normadize
    4 hours ago










  • The coils of the fan are inductors. What do inductors do to pulsing current? They make smooth(er) current. So, at most you will cause a little extra heating in the coils.
    – JRE
    4 hours ago












up vote
1
down vote

favorite









up vote
1
down vote

favorite











tl;dr - Is driving brushless DC fans using PWM unhealthy for the fan compared to variable but steady DC voltage? If yes, why and how?



The super simple input [PWM] -> MOSFET driver [PWM] -> DC Fan to adjust the speed of DC fans is well known. The DC fan receives a PWM of the same frequency as the input, with sufficient juice from the MOSFET at higher voltage. Ignoring everything else, assume the fan gets a high-current PWM signal swinging between 0-12V at some duty cycle to vary the fan speed, and that the 0-12V levels are clean (no spikes etc).



Say I have a 0.5A, 12V brushless DC fans. These are not PWM fans (i.e. they only have 2 wires). I now drive them using the above PWM circuit to vary their speed. Assume the PWM frequency is around 25 kHz, and that the MOSFET can easily switch at that frequency.



I've read some saying that adjusting the speed of DC fans using a variable DC level voltage is "more healthy" for the fan than using PWM like above.



For the experts out there:



Are there dangers of driving DC fans like the above using PWM (pulsed) instead of steady voltage levels? If yes, what are they, exactly, how they manifest? How important is the PWM frequency (for the fan, assume the MOSFET easily switches at the PWM frequency)?



p.s. I can build a PWM-to-DC circuit (e.g. source follower, etc) but here I'm really only interested to understand the dangers of driving DC fans with PWM.



p.p.s. I have personal experience that suggests PWM may affect them, but here I'm asking a general question. Particular to my case: I've heard clicks coming from all my DC fans when driving them using a PWM signals, particularly at low-duty cycle. Moreover, after a little less than 1 year under continuous operation at various duty cycles (50% being the most prevalent), some of the fans no longer respond to low duty-cycle PWM. Specifically, they still spin at 100% speed when the duty-cycle is 100% (practically 12V steady) but any lower duty cycle results in the fan spinning at a very slow speed, regardless of the actual duty cycle valule -- as if the fan had 2 speeds only (full speed and very low speed). All these fans responded well to PWM before. They still spin freely when pushed by hand (no extra resistance compared to the other fans).










share|improve this question









New contributor




Normadize is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











tl;dr - Is driving brushless DC fans using PWM unhealthy for the fan compared to variable but steady DC voltage? If yes, why and how?



The super simple input [PWM] -> MOSFET driver [PWM] -> DC Fan to adjust the speed of DC fans is well known. The DC fan receives a PWM of the same frequency as the input, with sufficient juice from the MOSFET at higher voltage. Ignoring everything else, assume the fan gets a high-current PWM signal swinging between 0-12V at some duty cycle to vary the fan speed, and that the 0-12V levels are clean (no spikes etc).



Say I have a 0.5A, 12V brushless DC fans. These are not PWM fans (i.e. they only have 2 wires). I now drive them using the above PWM circuit to vary their speed. Assume the PWM frequency is around 25 kHz, and that the MOSFET can easily switch at that frequency.



I've read some saying that adjusting the speed of DC fans using a variable DC level voltage is "more healthy" for the fan than using PWM like above.



For the experts out there:



Are there dangers of driving DC fans like the above using PWM (pulsed) instead of steady voltage levels? If yes, what are they, exactly, how they manifest? How important is the PWM frequency (for the fan, assume the MOSFET easily switches at the PWM frequency)?



p.s. I can build a PWM-to-DC circuit (e.g. source follower, etc) but here I'm really only interested to understand the dangers of driving DC fans with PWM.



p.p.s. I have personal experience that suggests PWM may affect them, but here I'm asking a general question. Particular to my case: I've heard clicks coming from all my DC fans when driving them using a PWM signals, particularly at low-duty cycle. Moreover, after a little less than 1 year under continuous operation at various duty cycles (50% being the most prevalent), some of the fans no longer respond to low duty-cycle PWM. Specifically, they still spin at 100% speed when the duty-cycle is 100% (practically 12V steady) but any lower duty cycle results in the fan spinning at a very slow speed, regardless of the actual duty cycle valule -- as if the fan had 2 speeds only (full speed and very low speed). All these fans responded well to PWM before. They still spin freely when pushed by hand (no extra resistance compared to the other fans).







pwm mosfet-driver fan






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edited 1 hour ago





















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asked 4 hours ago









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  • My question was not about debugging my problem, but about whether or not PWM driving is bad for DC fans (I was afraid someone would pick on the former, so I'll remove that piece of text).
    – Normadize
    4 hours ago










  • The coils of the fan are inductors. What do inductors do to pulsing current? They make smooth(er) current. So, at most you will cause a little extra heating in the coils.
    – JRE
    4 hours ago
















  • My question was not about debugging my problem, but about whether or not PWM driving is bad for DC fans (I was afraid someone would pick on the former, so I'll remove that piece of text).
    – Normadize
    4 hours ago










  • The coils of the fan are inductors. What do inductors do to pulsing current? They make smooth(er) current. So, at most you will cause a little extra heating in the coils.
    – JRE
    4 hours ago















My question was not about debugging my problem, but about whether or not PWM driving is bad for DC fans (I was afraid someone would pick on the former, so I'll remove that piece of text).
– Normadize
4 hours ago




My question was not about debugging my problem, but about whether or not PWM driving is bad for DC fans (I was afraid someone would pick on the former, so I'll remove that piece of text).
– Normadize
4 hours ago












The coils of the fan are inductors. What do inductors do to pulsing current? They make smooth(er) current. So, at most you will cause a little extra heating in the coils.
– JRE
4 hours ago




The coils of the fan are inductors. What do inductors do to pulsing current? They make smooth(er) current. So, at most you will cause a little extra heating in the coils.
– JRE
4 hours ago










2 Answers
2






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2
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DC computer type fans ARE NOT DC motor driven fans, they are BLDC motors, and universally contain either an MCU or logic controller to start and run the fan. Running these fans on a PWM supply is not recommended, and it might well damage some controllers over time.
This question covered the types of controller and may help your understanding.



The click you occasionally hear from your fan is in all probability the controller trying to do the start logic (in other words it thought the power had been cycled). These fans are two phase and the controller has to ensure they will start in only one direction so have stall/kickoff logic.



Depending on how advanced the controller is, it's quite possible you could damage one of the capacitors in the circuit supply over time and this might be what you are seeing occur.



Most motherboards (and I understand you might not be using the fans in a computer) that PWM the fans (typically 3 wire) are semi intelligent too, they start by applying 12V and then back off to a lower voltage. This was common on older Server computers, but fan failure was quite common.



Since the cost differential is low, it is worth going to 4 wire fans where the PWM signal is actually going to an MCU, and it is responsible for controlling the fan speed. The controllers for 4 wire fans are very commonly available.



If you MUST control the DC voltage, then I'd suggest you do not use PWM, and be aware that the range of control is non-linear, and restricted. Most fans show DC control limited to about 5V DC on a 12V fan. You might also read this question which covered PWM of a fan for non-computer use.






share|improve this answer






















  • Many thanks, this explained more than I could figure out or find online myself. In conclusion, if I don't know exactly which kind of controller the fans have and don't want to take risks then I'm better off trying to give them clean DC. I'm aware it'll be nonlinear and also capped lower than 12V depending on the circuit I implement - currently designed a mosfet source follower driven by a bjt and now looking for a mosfet choice with low Vth.
    – Normadize
    3 hours ago


















up vote
1
down vote













All DC motors are actually AC motors with some sort of commutation from DC with some DC coil resistance, DCR.



The BLDC draws excitation current from the coil resistance. (I=V+/DCR) As average voltage increases and it overcomes stiction, it starts spinning and the commutated coil impedance now is added to the DCR.



HOWEVER, an internal filter cap is needed by the fan to reduce incoming and outgoing voltage ripple, caused by current commutation in the poles.



  • If you pulse that Cap, with a non-PWM controlled fan you may be pulsing that cap with more ripple current than the fan and it may fail prematurely according to Irms and its rating, or cause weird aliasing noises.

  • Nevertheless, you are imposing a new spectrum of current interference to the commutation for the motor and thermal feedback to regulate fans may have audible aliasing winding noise, from these ideal quiet fans.

Conclusion: Use the right fan or design a DC-DC regulator to control it, that guarantees no stalling from low start voltage by setting thresholds for voltage and temperature control range.



Anecdotal Experience from early 80's to now



  • fans generate acoustic eddy currents from the blade turbulence near a fixed grill. The solution to this, is make the fan inline to a plenum. the design trick is to make this as short as possible to remove all the heat outside and not add much noise.


  • for SMPS forced air cooling, it is this same eddy current turbulent velocity that reduces the thermal resistance of air cooling ferrite transformers and power transistors.



    • So maximize air velocity over the hot spots, with a plenum or folded cover rather than simple panel-mounted fan that pushes or pulls a certain volume of air.

    • The secret is that the air just blows over the top of the hot spots thus ineffective or weak thermal coupling, instead of turbulent air over the part at 1 to 3m/s. In my case design it reduced full load hotspots in a restricted space from 70'C to 10'C temp rise. I verified my design with cigarette smoke, thermocouples and mylar folded plenums. ( this also helped me survive UL's safety "coke-spill and sledge-hammer tests" to my 19" 1U rack design. )

    • The motor senses rotation position by a precision Hall Effect pole sensors which commutates the FET bridge.

    • All electrolytic components ( batteries included ) have a capacitance that degrades due to a chemical reaction accelerated by current and heat that affects the ageing rate.

    • This is defined by Arrhenius Law, which is approx. -50% MTBF for every 10'C rise above ambient.


  • The coil impedance rises above stall speed so the current now increases much slower due to wind loading.


  • The stall speed might be around 25% starting and 15% stopping so that if stalled with no cooling the coil heats up the magnet and that could degrade the magnet over time if above its rating.

  • Back in the 80's Toshiba, Fujitsu using some higher power muffin fans would have a thermister with self heating by applied power and self-cooling by the fan's air velocity to detect a fan fail and create a halt alert.


  • The fan not only cools the host but the internal parts as well, except when it is stalled. For small fans well designed, no problem but if the coils heat up the rare earth magnets unusual failures can occur. ( dead-spots in starting fan etc) This usually only happens on 1 of 4 resting positions.


  • For this reason for the last 35 yrs, any high volume production of systems I have been involved with, an automated start-stop incoming test was performed test for this fault. The design/process is a critical tradeoff between efficiency near magnetic neutral and offset so the circuit knows which direction to start commutating. This slim margin exists in every PM BLDC motor. Where the fan is not dead, it's just dithering back and forth, or motionless until you nudge it.

    • Even the famous Nidec Japanese brand fans occasionally had 1% of 100 fans with dead spots, so corrective feedback to OEM eliminated their problem by forcing them to fix it.


  • I also gave our distributor my design for a simple test jig design that did this, Start <=0.1s stop <1s repeat for 100 cycles, 100 fans in parallel.

    • Then we had perfect yields - no failures, 3 shipments in a row, so then I halted those incoming tests. Problem solved.


  • often these problems occur when the factory moves or some other minor process change.

p.p.s. reply



You probably blew the internal electrolytic cap from external PWM resulting in an abrupt change in source impedance with PWM now going open/close in parallel with fan's load including a Cap with ESR, to give low source impedance to the bridge. I suspected the cap ESR should be worn out with much higher ESR and lower C, so the fan has a load high regulation error due to a much higher source impedance. This explains your dramatic losses below 100% PWM from full speed to slow speed. The Cap ESR must be << 10% of the coil DCR for good voltage control RPM regulation or better , so use the proper fan or a linear design. A cheap fix may be to add a series R to transfer Cap losses to series or RL to improve max speed with low Q for a field fix. Or do get it right the 1st time and listen to the wisdom of experience.






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  • Fantastic answer. Loved the backstory too. My fans are by Sunon with their MagLev technology - inexpensive for the quality, but I need to vary their speed. I'll cease driving them with PWM. I'm testing two designs. A source follower driver (advantage=full duty-cycle range is usable, disadvantage=I'm losing Vth so max speed is lower) or an NMOS low-side or PMOS high-side driver (advantage=full fan speed as Vds drop is minimal, disadvantage=very limited range of usable duty-cycle as the MOSFETS I found with low Rds(on) and low Vgs have narrow linear region). I'm not an expert, sadly.
    – Normadize
    1 hour ago











  • With a low side NPN or high side PNP rated for 1/2 fan power at 6V with max 30’C rise <10’C/W max and high hFE >>200 and low Rce = Vce(sat)/0.5A << 1 Ohm , then with 5% to 10% Ic or 25 to 50mA you can drive with a comparator or some ( and suitable filter) or Op Amp.
    – Tony EE rocketscientist
    42 mins ago











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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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active

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active

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active

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up vote
2
down vote













DC computer type fans ARE NOT DC motor driven fans, they are BLDC motors, and universally contain either an MCU or logic controller to start and run the fan. Running these fans on a PWM supply is not recommended, and it might well damage some controllers over time.
This question covered the types of controller and may help your understanding.



The click you occasionally hear from your fan is in all probability the controller trying to do the start logic (in other words it thought the power had been cycled). These fans are two phase and the controller has to ensure they will start in only one direction so have stall/kickoff logic.



Depending on how advanced the controller is, it's quite possible you could damage one of the capacitors in the circuit supply over time and this might be what you are seeing occur.



Most motherboards (and I understand you might not be using the fans in a computer) that PWM the fans (typically 3 wire) are semi intelligent too, they start by applying 12V and then back off to a lower voltage. This was common on older Server computers, but fan failure was quite common.



Since the cost differential is low, it is worth going to 4 wire fans where the PWM signal is actually going to an MCU, and it is responsible for controlling the fan speed. The controllers for 4 wire fans are very commonly available.



If you MUST control the DC voltage, then I'd suggest you do not use PWM, and be aware that the range of control is non-linear, and restricted. Most fans show DC control limited to about 5V DC on a 12V fan. You might also read this question which covered PWM of a fan for non-computer use.






share|improve this answer






















  • Many thanks, this explained more than I could figure out or find online myself. In conclusion, if I don't know exactly which kind of controller the fans have and don't want to take risks then I'm better off trying to give them clean DC. I'm aware it'll be nonlinear and also capped lower than 12V depending on the circuit I implement - currently designed a mosfet source follower driven by a bjt and now looking for a mosfet choice with low Vth.
    – Normadize
    3 hours ago















up vote
2
down vote













DC computer type fans ARE NOT DC motor driven fans, they are BLDC motors, and universally contain either an MCU or logic controller to start and run the fan. Running these fans on a PWM supply is not recommended, and it might well damage some controllers over time.
This question covered the types of controller and may help your understanding.



The click you occasionally hear from your fan is in all probability the controller trying to do the start logic (in other words it thought the power had been cycled). These fans are two phase and the controller has to ensure they will start in only one direction so have stall/kickoff logic.



Depending on how advanced the controller is, it's quite possible you could damage one of the capacitors in the circuit supply over time and this might be what you are seeing occur.



Most motherboards (and I understand you might not be using the fans in a computer) that PWM the fans (typically 3 wire) are semi intelligent too, they start by applying 12V and then back off to a lower voltage. This was common on older Server computers, but fan failure was quite common.



Since the cost differential is low, it is worth going to 4 wire fans where the PWM signal is actually going to an MCU, and it is responsible for controlling the fan speed. The controllers for 4 wire fans are very commonly available.



If you MUST control the DC voltage, then I'd suggest you do not use PWM, and be aware that the range of control is non-linear, and restricted. Most fans show DC control limited to about 5V DC on a 12V fan. You might also read this question which covered PWM of a fan for non-computer use.






share|improve this answer






















  • Many thanks, this explained more than I could figure out or find online myself. In conclusion, if I don't know exactly which kind of controller the fans have and don't want to take risks then I'm better off trying to give them clean DC. I'm aware it'll be nonlinear and also capped lower than 12V depending on the circuit I implement - currently designed a mosfet source follower driven by a bjt and now looking for a mosfet choice with low Vth.
    – Normadize
    3 hours ago













up vote
2
down vote










up vote
2
down vote









DC computer type fans ARE NOT DC motor driven fans, they are BLDC motors, and universally contain either an MCU or logic controller to start and run the fan. Running these fans on a PWM supply is not recommended, and it might well damage some controllers over time.
This question covered the types of controller and may help your understanding.



The click you occasionally hear from your fan is in all probability the controller trying to do the start logic (in other words it thought the power had been cycled). These fans are two phase and the controller has to ensure they will start in only one direction so have stall/kickoff logic.



Depending on how advanced the controller is, it's quite possible you could damage one of the capacitors in the circuit supply over time and this might be what you are seeing occur.



Most motherboards (and I understand you might not be using the fans in a computer) that PWM the fans (typically 3 wire) are semi intelligent too, they start by applying 12V and then back off to a lower voltage. This was common on older Server computers, but fan failure was quite common.



Since the cost differential is low, it is worth going to 4 wire fans where the PWM signal is actually going to an MCU, and it is responsible for controlling the fan speed. The controllers for 4 wire fans are very commonly available.



If you MUST control the DC voltage, then I'd suggest you do not use PWM, and be aware that the range of control is non-linear, and restricted. Most fans show DC control limited to about 5V DC on a 12V fan. You might also read this question which covered PWM of a fan for non-computer use.






share|improve this answer














DC computer type fans ARE NOT DC motor driven fans, they are BLDC motors, and universally contain either an MCU or logic controller to start and run the fan. Running these fans on a PWM supply is not recommended, and it might well damage some controllers over time.
This question covered the types of controller and may help your understanding.



The click you occasionally hear from your fan is in all probability the controller trying to do the start logic (in other words it thought the power had been cycled). These fans are two phase and the controller has to ensure they will start in only one direction so have stall/kickoff logic.



Depending on how advanced the controller is, it's quite possible you could damage one of the capacitors in the circuit supply over time and this might be what you are seeing occur.



Most motherboards (and I understand you might not be using the fans in a computer) that PWM the fans (typically 3 wire) are semi intelligent too, they start by applying 12V and then back off to a lower voltage. This was common on older Server computers, but fan failure was quite common.



Since the cost differential is low, it is worth going to 4 wire fans where the PWM signal is actually going to an MCU, and it is responsible for controlling the fan speed. The controllers for 4 wire fans are very commonly available.



If you MUST control the DC voltage, then I'd suggest you do not use PWM, and be aware that the range of control is non-linear, and restricted. Most fans show DC control limited to about 5V DC on a 12V fan. You might also read this question which covered PWM of a fan for non-computer use.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 3 hours ago

























answered 4 hours ago









Jack Creasey

12.3k2622




12.3k2622











  • Many thanks, this explained more than I could figure out or find online myself. In conclusion, if I don't know exactly which kind of controller the fans have and don't want to take risks then I'm better off trying to give them clean DC. I'm aware it'll be nonlinear and also capped lower than 12V depending on the circuit I implement - currently designed a mosfet source follower driven by a bjt and now looking for a mosfet choice with low Vth.
    – Normadize
    3 hours ago

















  • Many thanks, this explained more than I could figure out or find online myself. In conclusion, if I don't know exactly which kind of controller the fans have and don't want to take risks then I'm better off trying to give them clean DC. I'm aware it'll be nonlinear and also capped lower than 12V depending on the circuit I implement - currently designed a mosfet source follower driven by a bjt and now looking for a mosfet choice with low Vth.
    – Normadize
    3 hours ago
















Many thanks, this explained more than I could figure out or find online myself. In conclusion, if I don't know exactly which kind of controller the fans have and don't want to take risks then I'm better off trying to give them clean DC. I'm aware it'll be nonlinear and also capped lower than 12V depending on the circuit I implement - currently designed a mosfet source follower driven by a bjt and now looking for a mosfet choice with low Vth.
– Normadize
3 hours ago





Many thanks, this explained more than I could figure out or find online myself. In conclusion, if I don't know exactly which kind of controller the fans have and don't want to take risks then I'm better off trying to give them clean DC. I'm aware it'll be nonlinear and also capped lower than 12V depending on the circuit I implement - currently designed a mosfet source follower driven by a bjt and now looking for a mosfet choice with low Vth.
– Normadize
3 hours ago













up vote
1
down vote













All DC motors are actually AC motors with some sort of commutation from DC with some DC coil resistance, DCR.



The BLDC draws excitation current from the coil resistance. (I=V+/DCR) As average voltage increases and it overcomes stiction, it starts spinning and the commutated coil impedance now is added to the DCR.



HOWEVER, an internal filter cap is needed by the fan to reduce incoming and outgoing voltage ripple, caused by current commutation in the poles.



  • If you pulse that Cap, with a non-PWM controlled fan you may be pulsing that cap with more ripple current than the fan and it may fail prematurely according to Irms and its rating, or cause weird aliasing noises.

  • Nevertheless, you are imposing a new spectrum of current interference to the commutation for the motor and thermal feedback to regulate fans may have audible aliasing winding noise, from these ideal quiet fans.

Conclusion: Use the right fan or design a DC-DC regulator to control it, that guarantees no stalling from low start voltage by setting thresholds for voltage and temperature control range.



Anecdotal Experience from early 80's to now



  • fans generate acoustic eddy currents from the blade turbulence near a fixed grill. The solution to this, is make the fan inline to a plenum. the design trick is to make this as short as possible to remove all the heat outside and not add much noise.


  • for SMPS forced air cooling, it is this same eddy current turbulent velocity that reduces the thermal resistance of air cooling ferrite transformers and power transistors.



    • So maximize air velocity over the hot spots, with a plenum or folded cover rather than simple panel-mounted fan that pushes or pulls a certain volume of air.

    • The secret is that the air just blows over the top of the hot spots thus ineffective or weak thermal coupling, instead of turbulent air over the part at 1 to 3m/s. In my case design it reduced full load hotspots in a restricted space from 70'C to 10'C temp rise. I verified my design with cigarette smoke, thermocouples and mylar folded plenums. ( this also helped me survive UL's safety "coke-spill and sledge-hammer tests" to my 19" 1U rack design. )

    • The motor senses rotation position by a precision Hall Effect pole sensors which commutates the FET bridge.

    • All electrolytic components ( batteries included ) have a capacitance that degrades due to a chemical reaction accelerated by current and heat that affects the ageing rate.

    • This is defined by Arrhenius Law, which is approx. -50% MTBF for every 10'C rise above ambient.


  • The coil impedance rises above stall speed so the current now increases much slower due to wind loading.


  • The stall speed might be around 25% starting and 15% stopping so that if stalled with no cooling the coil heats up the magnet and that could degrade the magnet over time if above its rating.

  • Back in the 80's Toshiba, Fujitsu using some higher power muffin fans would have a thermister with self heating by applied power and self-cooling by the fan's air velocity to detect a fan fail and create a halt alert.


  • The fan not only cools the host but the internal parts as well, except when it is stalled. For small fans well designed, no problem but if the coils heat up the rare earth magnets unusual failures can occur. ( dead-spots in starting fan etc) This usually only happens on 1 of 4 resting positions.


  • For this reason for the last 35 yrs, any high volume production of systems I have been involved with, an automated start-stop incoming test was performed test for this fault. The design/process is a critical tradeoff between efficiency near magnetic neutral and offset so the circuit knows which direction to start commutating. This slim margin exists in every PM BLDC motor. Where the fan is not dead, it's just dithering back and forth, or motionless until you nudge it.

    • Even the famous Nidec Japanese brand fans occasionally had 1% of 100 fans with dead spots, so corrective feedback to OEM eliminated their problem by forcing them to fix it.


  • I also gave our distributor my design for a simple test jig design that did this, Start <=0.1s stop <1s repeat for 100 cycles, 100 fans in parallel.

    • Then we had perfect yields - no failures, 3 shipments in a row, so then I halted those incoming tests. Problem solved.


  • often these problems occur when the factory moves or some other minor process change.

p.p.s. reply



You probably blew the internal electrolytic cap from external PWM resulting in an abrupt change in source impedance with PWM now going open/close in parallel with fan's load including a Cap with ESR, to give low source impedance to the bridge. I suspected the cap ESR should be worn out with much higher ESR and lower C, so the fan has a load high regulation error due to a much higher source impedance. This explains your dramatic losses below 100% PWM from full speed to slow speed. The Cap ESR must be << 10% of the coil DCR for good voltage control RPM regulation or better , so use the proper fan or a linear design. A cheap fix may be to add a series R to transfer Cap losses to series or RL to improve max speed with low Q for a field fix. Or do get it right the 1st time and listen to the wisdom of experience.






share|improve this answer






















  • Fantastic answer. Loved the backstory too. My fans are by Sunon with their MagLev technology - inexpensive for the quality, but I need to vary their speed. I'll cease driving them with PWM. I'm testing two designs. A source follower driver (advantage=full duty-cycle range is usable, disadvantage=I'm losing Vth so max speed is lower) or an NMOS low-side or PMOS high-side driver (advantage=full fan speed as Vds drop is minimal, disadvantage=very limited range of usable duty-cycle as the MOSFETS I found with low Rds(on) and low Vgs have narrow linear region). I'm not an expert, sadly.
    – Normadize
    1 hour ago











  • With a low side NPN or high side PNP rated for 1/2 fan power at 6V with max 30’C rise <10’C/W max and high hFE >>200 and low Rce = Vce(sat)/0.5A << 1 Ohm , then with 5% to 10% Ic or 25 to 50mA you can drive with a comparator or some ( and suitable filter) or Op Amp.
    – Tony EE rocketscientist
    42 mins ago















up vote
1
down vote













All DC motors are actually AC motors with some sort of commutation from DC with some DC coil resistance, DCR.



The BLDC draws excitation current from the coil resistance. (I=V+/DCR) As average voltage increases and it overcomes stiction, it starts spinning and the commutated coil impedance now is added to the DCR.



HOWEVER, an internal filter cap is needed by the fan to reduce incoming and outgoing voltage ripple, caused by current commutation in the poles.



  • If you pulse that Cap, with a non-PWM controlled fan you may be pulsing that cap with more ripple current than the fan and it may fail prematurely according to Irms and its rating, or cause weird aliasing noises.

  • Nevertheless, you are imposing a new spectrum of current interference to the commutation for the motor and thermal feedback to regulate fans may have audible aliasing winding noise, from these ideal quiet fans.

Conclusion: Use the right fan or design a DC-DC regulator to control it, that guarantees no stalling from low start voltage by setting thresholds for voltage and temperature control range.



Anecdotal Experience from early 80's to now



  • fans generate acoustic eddy currents from the blade turbulence near a fixed grill. The solution to this, is make the fan inline to a plenum. the design trick is to make this as short as possible to remove all the heat outside and not add much noise.


  • for SMPS forced air cooling, it is this same eddy current turbulent velocity that reduces the thermal resistance of air cooling ferrite transformers and power transistors.



    • So maximize air velocity over the hot spots, with a plenum or folded cover rather than simple panel-mounted fan that pushes or pulls a certain volume of air.

    • The secret is that the air just blows over the top of the hot spots thus ineffective or weak thermal coupling, instead of turbulent air over the part at 1 to 3m/s. In my case design it reduced full load hotspots in a restricted space from 70'C to 10'C temp rise. I verified my design with cigarette smoke, thermocouples and mylar folded plenums. ( this also helped me survive UL's safety "coke-spill and sledge-hammer tests" to my 19" 1U rack design. )

    • The motor senses rotation position by a precision Hall Effect pole sensors which commutates the FET bridge.

    • All electrolytic components ( batteries included ) have a capacitance that degrades due to a chemical reaction accelerated by current and heat that affects the ageing rate.

    • This is defined by Arrhenius Law, which is approx. -50% MTBF for every 10'C rise above ambient.


  • The coil impedance rises above stall speed so the current now increases much slower due to wind loading.


  • The stall speed might be around 25% starting and 15% stopping so that if stalled with no cooling the coil heats up the magnet and that could degrade the magnet over time if above its rating.

  • Back in the 80's Toshiba, Fujitsu using some higher power muffin fans would have a thermister with self heating by applied power and self-cooling by the fan's air velocity to detect a fan fail and create a halt alert.


  • The fan not only cools the host but the internal parts as well, except when it is stalled. For small fans well designed, no problem but if the coils heat up the rare earth magnets unusual failures can occur. ( dead-spots in starting fan etc) This usually only happens on 1 of 4 resting positions.


  • For this reason for the last 35 yrs, any high volume production of systems I have been involved with, an automated start-stop incoming test was performed test for this fault. The design/process is a critical tradeoff between efficiency near magnetic neutral and offset so the circuit knows which direction to start commutating. This slim margin exists in every PM BLDC motor. Where the fan is not dead, it's just dithering back and forth, or motionless until you nudge it.

    • Even the famous Nidec Japanese brand fans occasionally had 1% of 100 fans with dead spots, so corrective feedback to OEM eliminated their problem by forcing them to fix it.


  • I also gave our distributor my design for a simple test jig design that did this, Start <=0.1s stop <1s repeat for 100 cycles, 100 fans in parallel.

    • Then we had perfect yields - no failures, 3 shipments in a row, so then I halted those incoming tests. Problem solved.


  • often these problems occur when the factory moves or some other minor process change.

p.p.s. reply



You probably blew the internal electrolytic cap from external PWM resulting in an abrupt change in source impedance with PWM now going open/close in parallel with fan's load including a Cap with ESR, to give low source impedance to the bridge. I suspected the cap ESR should be worn out with much higher ESR and lower C, so the fan has a load high regulation error due to a much higher source impedance. This explains your dramatic losses below 100% PWM from full speed to slow speed. The Cap ESR must be << 10% of the coil DCR for good voltage control RPM regulation or better , so use the proper fan or a linear design. A cheap fix may be to add a series R to transfer Cap losses to series or RL to improve max speed with low Q for a field fix. Or do get it right the 1st time and listen to the wisdom of experience.






share|improve this answer






















  • Fantastic answer. Loved the backstory too. My fans are by Sunon with their MagLev technology - inexpensive for the quality, but I need to vary their speed. I'll cease driving them with PWM. I'm testing two designs. A source follower driver (advantage=full duty-cycle range is usable, disadvantage=I'm losing Vth so max speed is lower) or an NMOS low-side or PMOS high-side driver (advantage=full fan speed as Vds drop is minimal, disadvantage=very limited range of usable duty-cycle as the MOSFETS I found with low Rds(on) and low Vgs have narrow linear region). I'm not an expert, sadly.
    – Normadize
    1 hour ago











  • With a low side NPN or high side PNP rated for 1/2 fan power at 6V with max 30’C rise <10’C/W max and high hFE >>200 and low Rce = Vce(sat)/0.5A << 1 Ohm , then with 5% to 10% Ic or 25 to 50mA you can drive with a comparator or some ( and suitable filter) or Op Amp.
    – Tony EE rocketscientist
    42 mins ago













up vote
1
down vote










up vote
1
down vote









All DC motors are actually AC motors with some sort of commutation from DC with some DC coil resistance, DCR.



The BLDC draws excitation current from the coil resistance. (I=V+/DCR) As average voltage increases and it overcomes stiction, it starts spinning and the commutated coil impedance now is added to the DCR.



HOWEVER, an internal filter cap is needed by the fan to reduce incoming and outgoing voltage ripple, caused by current commutation in the poles.



  • If you pulse that Cap, with a non-PWM controlled fan you may be pulsing that cap with more ripple current than the fan and it may fail prematurely according to Irms and its rating, or cause weird aliasing noises.

  • Nevertheless, you are imposing a new spectrum of current interference to the commutation for the motor and thermal feedback to regulate fans may have audible aliasing winding noise, from these ideal quiet fans.

Conclusion: Use the right fan or design a DC-DC regulator to control it, that guarantees no stalling from low start voltage by setting thresholds for voltage and temperature control range.



Anecdotal Experience from early 80's to now



  • fans generate acoustic eddy currents from the blade turbulence near a fixed grill. The solution to this, is make the fan inline to a plenum. the design trick is to make this as short as possible to remove all the heat outside and not add much noise.


  • for SMPS forced air cooling, it is this same eddy current turbulent velocity that reduces the thermal resistance of air cooling ferrite transformers and power transistors.



    • So maximize air velocity over the hot spots, with a plenum or folded cover rather than simple panel-mounted fan that pushes or pulls a certain volume of air.

    • The secret is that the air just blows over the top of the hot spots thus ineffective or weak thermal coupling, instead of turbulent air over the part at 1 to 3m/s. In my case design it reduced full load hotspots in a restricted space from 70'C to 10'C temp rise. I verified my design with cigarette smoke, thermocouples and mylar folded plenums. ( this also helped me survive UL's safety "coke-spill and sledge-hammer tests" to my 19" 1U rack design. )

    • The motor senses rotation position by a precision Hall Effect pole sensors which commutates the FET bridge.

    • All electrolytic components ( batteries included ) have a capacitance that degrades due to a chemical reaction accelerated by current and heat that affects the ageing rate.

    • This is defined by Arrhenius Law, which is approx. -50% MTBF for every 10'C rise above ambient.


  • The coil impedance rises above stall speed so the current now increases much slower due to wind loading.


  • The stall speed might be around 25% starting and 15% stopping so that if stalled with no cooling the coil heats up the magnet and that could degrade the magnet over time if above its rating.

  • Back in the 80's Toshiba, Fujitsu using some higher power muffin fans would have a thermister with self heating by applied power and self-cooling by the fan's air velocity to detect a fan fail and create a halt alert.


  • The fan not only cools the host but the internal parts as well, except when it is stalled. For small fans well designed, no problem but if the coils heat up the rare earth magnets unusual failures can occur. ( dead-spots in starting fan etc) This usually only happens on 1 of 4 resting positions.


  • For this reason for the last 35 yrs, any high volume production of systems I have been involved with, an automated start-stop incoming test was performed test for this fault. The design/process is a critical tradeoff between efficiency near magnetic neutral and offset so the circuit knows which direction to start commutating. This slim margin exists in every PM BLDC motor. Where the fan is not dead, it's just dithering back and forth, or motionless until you nudge it.

    • Even the famous Nidec Japanese brand fans occasionally had 1% of 100 fans with dead spots, so corrective feedback to OEM eliminated their problem by forcing them to fix it.


  • I also gave our distributor my design for a simple test jig design that did this, Start <=0.1s stop <1s repeat for 100 cycles, 100 fans in parallel.

    • Then we had perfect yields - no failures, 3 shipments in a row, so then I halted those incoming tests. Problem solved.


  • often these problems occur when the factory moves or some other minor process change.

p.p.s. reply



You probably blew the internal electrolytic cap from external PWM resulting in an abrupt change in source impedance with PWM now going open/close in parallel with fan's load including a Cap with ESR, to give low source impedance to the bridge. I suspected the cap ESR should be worn out with much higher ESR and lower C, so the fan has a load high regulation error due to a much higher source impedance. This explains your dramatic losses below 100% PWM from full speed to slow speed. The Cap ESR must be << 10% of the coil DCR for good voltage control RPM regulation or better , so use the proper fan or a linear design. A cheap fix may be to add a series R to transfer Cap losses to series or RL to improve max speed with low Q for a field fix. Or do get it right the 1st time and listen to the wisdom of experience.






share|improve this answer














All DC motors are actually AC motors with some sort of commutation from DC with some DC coil resistance, DCR.



The BLDC draws excitation current from the coil resistance. (I=V+/DCR) As average voltage increases and it overcomes stiction, it starts spinning and the commutated coil impedance now is added to the DCR.



HOWEVER, an internal filter cap is needed by the fan to reduce incoming and outgoing voltage ripple, caused by current commutation in the poles.



  • If you pulse that Cap, with a non-PWM controlled fan you may be pulsing that cap with more ripple current than the fan and it may fail prematurely according to Irms and its rating, or cause weird aliasing noises.

  • Nevertheless, you are imposing a new spectrum of current interference to the commutation for the motor and thermal feedback to regulate fans may have audible aliasing winding noise, from these ideal quiet fans.

Conclusion: Use the right fan or design a DC-DC regulator to control it, that guarantees no stalling from low start voltage by setting thresholds for voltage and temperature control range.



Anecdotal Experience from early 80's to now



  • fans generate acoustic eddy currents from the blade turbulence near a fixed grill. The solution to this, is make the fan inline to a plenum. the design trick is to make this as short as possible to remove all the heat outside and not add much noise.


  • for SMPS forced air cooling, it is this same eddy current turbulent velocity that reduces the thermal resistance of air cooling ferrite transformers and power transistors.



    • So maximize air velocity over the hot spots, with a plenum or folded cover rather than simple panel-mounted fan that pushes or pulls a certain volume of air.

    • The secret is that the air just blows over the top of the hot spots thus ineffective or weak thermal coupling, instead of turbulent air over the part at 1 to 3m/s. In my case design it reduced full load hotspots in a restricted space from 70'C to 10'C temp rise. I verified my design with cigarette smoke, thermocouples and mylar folded plenums. ( this also helped me survive UL's safety "coke-spill and sledge-hammer tests" to my 19" 1U rack design. )

    • The motor senses rotation position by a precision Hall Effect pole sensors which commutates the FET bridge.

    • All electrolytic components ( batteries included ) have a capacitance that degrades due to a chemical reaction accelerated by current and heat that affects the ageing rate.

    • This is defined by Arrhenius Law, which is approx. -50% MTBF for every 10'C rise above ambient.


  • The coil impedance rises above stall speed so the current now increases much slower due to wind loading.


  • The stall speed might be around 25% starting and 15% stopping so that if stalled with no cooling the coil heats up the magnet and that could degrade the magnet over time if above its rating.

  • Back in the 80's Toshiba, Fujitsu using some higher power muffin fans would have a thermister with self heating by applied power and self-cooling by the fan's air velocity to detect a fan fail and create a halt alert.


  • The fan not only cools the host but the internal parts as well, except when it is stalled. For small fans well designed, no problem but if the coils heat up the rare earth magnets unusual failures can occur. ( dead-spots in starting fan etc) This usually only happens on 1 of 4 resting positions.


  • For this reason for the last 35 yrs, any high volume production of systems I have been involved with, an automated start-stop incoming test was performed test for this fault. The design/process is a critical tradeoff between efficiency near magnetic neutral and offset so the circuit knows which direction to start commutating. This slim margin exists in every PM BLDC motor. Where the fan is not dead, it's just dithering back and forth, or motionless until you nudge it.

    • Even the famous Nidec Japanese brand fans occasionally had 1% of 100 fans with dead spots, so corrective feedback to OEM eliminated their problem by forcing them to fix it.


  • I also gave our distributor my design for a simple test jig design that did this, Start <=0.1s stop <1s repeat for 100 cycles, 100 fans in parallel.

    • Then we had perfect yields - no failures, 3 shipments in a row, so then I halted those incoming tests. Problem solved.


  • often these problems occur when the factory moves or some other minor process change.

p.p.s. reply



You probably blew the internal electrolytic cap from external PWM resulting in an abrupt change in source impedance with PWM now going open/close in parallel with fan's load including a Cap with ESR, to give low source impedance to the bridge. I suspected the cap ESR should be worn out with much higher ESR and lower C, so the fan has a load high regulation error due to a much higher source impedance. This explains your dramatic losses below 100% PWM from full speed to slow speed. The Cap ESR must be << 10% of the coil DCR for good voltage control RPM regulation or better , so use the proper fan or a linear design. A cheap fix may be to add a series R to transfer Cap losses to series or RL to improve max speed with low Q for a field fix. Or do get it right the 1st time and listen to the wisdom of experience.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 12 mins ago

























answered 1 hour ago









Tony EE rocketscientist

59.4k22089




59.4k22089











  • Fantastic answer. Loved the backstory too. My fans are by Sunon with their MagLev technology - inexpensive for the quality, but I need to vary their speed. I'll cease driving them with PWM. I'm testing two designs. A source follower driver (advantage=full duty-cycle range is usable, disadvantage=I'm losing Vth so max speed is lower) or an NMOS low-side or PMOS high-side driver (advantage=full fan speed as Vds drop is minimal, disadvantage=very limited range of usable duty-cycle as the MOSFETS I found with low Rds(on) and low Vgs have narrow linear region). I'm not an expert, sadly.
    – Normadize
    1 hour ago











  • With a low side NPN or high side PNP rated for 1/2 fan power at 6V with max 30’C rise <10’C/W max and high hFE >>200 and low Rce = Vce(sat)/0.5A << 1 Ohm , then with 5% to 10% Ic or 25 to 50mA you can drive with a comparator or some ( and suitable filter) or Op Amp.
    – Tony EE rocketscientist
    42 mins ago

















  • Fantastic answer. Loved the backstory too. My fans are by Sunon with their MagLev technology - inexpensive for the quality, but I need to vary their speed. I'll cease driving them with PWM. I'm testing two designs. A source follower driver (advantage=full duty-cycle range is usable, disadvantage=I'm losing Vth so max speed is lower) or an NMOS low-side or PMOS high-side driver (advantage=full fan speed as Vds drop is minimal, disadvantage=very limited range of usable duty-cycle as the MOSFETS I found with low Rds(on) and low Vgs have narrow linear region). I'm not an expert, sadly.
    – Normadize
    1 hour ago











  • With a low side NPN or high side PNP rated for 1/2 fan power at 6V with max 30’C rise <10’C/W max and high hFE >>200 and low Rce = Vce(sat)/0.5A << 1 Ohm , then with 5% to 10% Ic or 25 to 50mA you can drive with a comparator or some ( and suitable filter) or Op Amp.
    – Tony EE rocketscientist
    42 mins ago
















Fantastic answer. Loved the backstory too. My fans are by Sunon with their MagLev technology - inexpensive for the quality, but I need to vary their speed. I'll cease driving them with PWM. I'm testing two designs. A source follower driver (advantage=full duty-cycle range is usable, disadvantage=I'm losing Vth so max speed is lower) or an NMOS low-side or PMOS high-side driver (advantage=full fan speed as Vds drop is minimal, disadvantage=very limited range of usable duty-cycle as the MOSFETS I found with low Rds(on) and low Vgs have narrow linear region). I'm not an expert, sadly.
– Normadize
1 hour ago





Fantastic answer. Loved the backstory too. My fans are by Sunon with their MagLev technology - inexpensive for the quality, but I need to vary their speed. I'll cease driving them with PWM. I'm testing two designs. A source follower driver (advantage=full duty-cycle range is usable, disadvantage=I'm losing Vth so max speed is lower) or an NMOS low-side or PMOS high-side driver (advantage=full fan speed as Vds drop is minimal, disadvantage=very limited range of usable duty-cycle as the MOSFETS I found with low Rds(on) and low Vgs have narrow linear region). I'm not an expert, sadly.
– Normadize
1 hour ago













With a low side NPN or high side PNP rated for 1/2 fan power at 6V with max 30’C rise <10’C/W max and high hFE >>200 and low Rce = Vce(sat)/0.5A << 1 Ohm , then with 5% to 10% Ic or 25 to 50mA you can drive with a comparator or some ( and suitable filter) or Op Amp.
– Tony EE rocketscientist
42 mins ago





With a low side NPN or high side PNP rated for 1/2 fan power at 6V with max 30’C rise <10’C/W max and high hFE >>200 and low Rce = Vce(sat)/0.5A << 1 Ohm , then with 5% to 10% Ic or 25 to 50mA you can drive with a comparator or some ( and suitable filter) or Op Amp.
– Tony EE rocketscientist
42 mins ago











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