Why do these chords from the plastic bag scene in American Beauty work?

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I'm trying to figure out the theory behind these three chords and why they work together. At first I thought it was a C major scale since it tends to want to go there. But there's flats in there so maybe it's in F since there's a Bb, but then where does the Eb come from?



  1. C - G

  2. Eb - Bb

  3. F - A - C

I think this could also be written like:



  1. C5 chord

  2. Eb5 chord

  3. F chord

progression here in Synthesia.












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    up vote
    9
    down vote

    favorite
    2












    I'm trying to figure out the theory behind these three chords and why they work together. At first I thought it was a C major scale since it tends to want to go there. But there's flats in there so maybe it's in F since there's a Bb, but then where does the Eb come from?



    1. C - G

    2. Eb - Bb

    3. F - A - C

    I think this could also be written like:



    1. C5 chord

    2. Eb5 chord

    3. F chord

    progression here in Synthesia.












    share|improve this question
























      up vote
      9
      down vote

      favorite
      2









      up vote
      9
      down vote

      favorite
      2






      2





      I'm trying to figure out the theory behind these three chords and why they work together. At first I thought it was a C major scale since it tends to want to go there. But there's flats in there so maybe it's in F since there's a Bb, but then where does the Eb come from?



      1. C - G

      2. Eb - Bb

      3. F - A - C

      I think this could also be written like:



      1. C5 chord

      2. Eb5 chord

      3. F chord

      progression here in Synthesia.












      share|improve this question














      I'm trying to figure out the theory behind these three chords and why they work together. At first I thought it was a C major scale since it tends to want to go there. But there's flats in there so maybe it's in F since there's a Bb, but then where does the Eb come from?



      1. C - G

      2. Eb - Bb

      3. F - A - C

      I think this could also be written like:



      1. C5 chord

      2. Eb5 chord

      3. F chord

      progression here in Synthesia.






















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited Aug 28 at 11:27

























      asked Aug 27 at 12:26









      foreyez

      3,49122057




      3,49122057




















          5 Answers
          5






          active

          oldest

          votes

















          up vote
          17
          down vote



          accepted










          In addition to Tim's great answer, we can also conceptualize this as being in C Dorian.



          The Dorian mode is a major scale with a lowered third and seventh. C Dorian would thus have E♭ and B♭.



          I think this is especially important to point out because of the A♮ (not A♭!) shown in your link. Another way to conceptualize Dorian is as natural minor with a raised sixth, which would be this A♮.



          Dorian is very common in popular music. The I–III–IV of this excerpt is a very common feature of Dorian, as is the emphasized whole step between scale-degrees 6 and 5 (A and G).






          share|improve this answer


















          • 2




            @EzLo For metrical reasons, I hear C as tonic instead of F. To me, the C chords are treated as points of rest, whereas the F chords sound to me like they're waiting to resolve back to C.
            – Richard
            Aug 28 at 10:06










          • I'd just like to add here that American Beauty is a great film, and part of its greatness is an especially sensitive and original soundtrack. Just sayin'.
            – Scott Wallace
            Aug 28 at 10:28

















          up vote
          8
          down vote













          They just do! But for some theory behind, it's entirely possible to mix in a parallel key. So here, the Eb/Bb (certainly not D#/A#!!) is from C minor. And yes, it could be written as C5 Eb5 F5. There are those amongst us who would argue they're not 'chords', but that's for another post...



          It could equally be in F, as those three chords also feature in that key.



          That sequence was used a fair bit in the '60s - Knock on Wood comes straight to mind.I - bIII - IV. Or, thinking in F, I - bVII, You Really Got Me. (Although that's nearly in key G!!). Or On Broadway.






          share|improve this answer






















          • The F chord at the end has an A in the top, so it's a full on F major chord.
            – trlkly
            Aug 27 at 20:42

















          up vote
          3
          down vote













          I think this could be in the key of C or F, both major or minor, depending on the melody and the rest of the chords, I could think in examples for all cases if needed. In the major case, Eb would be borrowed from the parallel minor key.



          As already said, all notes fit in both C and F minor pentatonics, and power chords over pentatonic scales are an old trick I guess, can't go wrong.






          share|improve this answer



























            up vote
            1
            down vote













            To my ear, it actually just sound like it's in B-flat major, but completely avoids playing the tonic chord, aka B-flat major. Since it avoids the tonic, it creates this feeling of always floating, never being anchored, like the bag in the scene.



            If this is correct, then the chords would be analyzed as ii IV V, repeating.



            You can try this out for yourself: end the progression with a B-flat major chord, with the top note also being a B-flat. To me, it sounds like I finally found rest.






            share|improve this answer
















            • 3




              I don't think so since it wants to go back to C5.
              – foreyez
              Aug 28 at 12:18







            • 1




              It sounds in C to me too. Part of the reason is all the pedal tones on C. No hint of Bb to my ears.
              – Scott Wallace
              Aug 28 at 13:52

















            up vote
            0
            down vote













            To me it doesn't sound like functional harmony, it sounds like pentatonic music with a weak key center in C. If it was functional harmony in the major-minor system, then we would expect at some point to get a V-i, and the V chord would have a B natural in it. That never happens. Since our ears are attuned to functional harmony, the lack of functional harmony makes it sound enigmatic. That works because the point of the scene is to get across something mysterious and ineffable.






            share|improve this answer




















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              5 Answers
              5






              active

              oldest

              votes








              5 Answers
              5






              active

              oldest

              votes









              active

              oldest

              votes






              active

              oldest

              votes








              up vote
              17
              down vote



              accepted










              In addition to Tim's great answer, we can also conceptualize this as being in C Dorian.



              The Dorian mode is a major scale with a lowered third and seventh. C Dorian would thus have E♭ and B♭.



              I think this is especially important to point out because of the A♮ (not A♭!) shown in your link. Another way to conceptualize Dorian is as natural minor with a raised sixth, which would be this A♮.



              Dorian is very common in popular music. The I–III–IV of this excerpt is a very common feature of Dorian, as is the emphasized whole step between scale-degrees 6 and 5 (A and G).






              share|improve this answer


















              • 2




                @EzLo For metrical reasons, I hear C as tonic instead of F. To me, the C chords are treated as points of rest, whereas the F chords sound to me like they're waiting to resolve back to C.
                – Richard
                Aug 28 at 10:06










              • I'd just like to add here that American Beauty is a great film, and part of its greatness is an especially sensitive and original soundtrack. Just sayin'.
                – Scott Wallace
                Aug 28 at 10:28














              up vote
              17
              down vote



              accepted










              In addition to Tim's great answer, we can also conceptualize this as being in C Dorian.



              The Dorian mode is a major scale with a lowered third and seventh. C Dorian would thus have E♭ and B♭.



              I think this is especially important to point out because of the A♮ (not A♭!) shown in your link. Another way to conceptualize Dorian is as natural minor with a raised sixth, which would be this A♮.



              Dorian is very common in popular music. The I–III–IV of this excerpt is a very common feature of Dorian, as is the emphasized whole step between scale-degrees 6 and 5 (A and G).






              share|improve this answer


















              • 2




                @EzLo For metrical reasons, I hear C as tonic instead of F. To me, the C chords are treated as points of rest, whereas the F chords sound to me like they're waiting to resolve back to C.
                – Richard
                Aug 28 at 10:06










              • I'd just like to add here that American Beauty is a great film, and part of its greatness is an especially sensitive and original soundtrack. Just sayin'.
                – Scott Wallace
                Aug 28 at 10:28












              up vote
              17
              down vote



              accepted







              up vote
              17
              down vote



              accepted






              In addition to Tim's great answer, we can also conceptualize this as being in C Dorian.



              The Dorian mode is a major scale with a lowered third and seventh. C Dorian would thus have E♭ and B♭.



              I think this is especially important to point out because of the A♮ (not A♭!) shown in your link. Another way to conceptualize Dorian is as natural minor with a raised sixth, which would be this A♮.



              Dorian is very common in popular music. The I–III–IV of this excerpt is a very common feature of Dorian, as is the emphasized whole step between scale-degrees 6 and 5 (A and G).






              share|improve this answer














              In addition to Tim's great answer, we can also conceptualize this as being in C Dorian.



              The Dorian mode is a major scale with a lowered third and seventh. C Dorian would thus have E♭ and B♭.



              I think this is especially important to point out because of the A♮ (not A♭!) shown in your link. Another way to conceptualize Dorian is as natural minor with a raised sixth, which would be this A♮.



              Dorian is very common in popular music. The I–III–IV of this excerpt is a very common feature of Dorian, as is the emphasized whole step between scale-degrees 6 and 5 (A and G).







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited Aug 27 at 18:12

























              answered Aug 27 at 18:06









              Richard

              30.7k666131




              30.7k666131







              • 2




                @EzLo For metrical reasons, I hear C as tonic instead of F. To me, the C chords are treated as points of rest, whereas the F chords sound to me like they're waiting to resolve back to C.
                – Richard
                Aug 28 at 10:06










              • I'd just like to add here that American Beauty is a great film, and part of its greatness is an especially sensitive and original soundtrack. Just sayin'.
                – Scott Wallace
                Aug 28 at 10:28












              • 2




                @EzLo For metrical reasons, I hear C as tonic instead of F. To me, the C chords are treated as points of rest, whereas the F chords sound to me like they're waiting to resolve back to C.
                – Richard
                Aug 28 at 10:06










              • I'd just like to add here that American Beauty is a great film, and part of its greatness is an especially sensitive and original soundtrack. Just sayin'.
                – Scott Wallace
                Aug 28 at 10:28







              2




              2




              @EzLo For metrical reasons, I hear C as tonic instead of F. To me, the C chords are treated as points of rest, whereas the F chords sound to me like they're waiting to resolve back to C.
              – Richard
              Aug 28 at 10:06




              @EzLo For metrical reasons, I hear C as tonic instead of F. To me, the C chords are treated as points of rest, whereas the F chords sound to me like they're waiting to resolve back to C.
              – Richard
              Aug 28 at 10:06












              I'd just like to add here that American Beauty is a great film, and part of its greatness is an especially sensitive and original soundtrack. Just sayin'.
              – Scott Wallace
              Aug 28 at 10:28




              I'd just like to add here that American Beauty is a great film, and part of its greatness is an especially sensitive and original soundtrack. Just sayin'.
              – Scott Wallace
              Aug 28 at 10:28










              up vote
              8
              down vote













              They just do! But for some theory behind, it's entirely possible to mix in a parallel key. So here, the Eb/Bb (certainly not D#/A#!!) is from C minor. And yes, it could be written as C5 Eb5 F5. There are those amongst us who would argue they're not 'chords', but that's for another post...



              It could equally be in F, as those three chords also feature in that key.



              That sequence was used a fair bit in the '60s - Knock on Wood comes straight to mind.I - bIII - IV. Or, thinking in F, I - bVII, You Really Got Me. (Although that's nearly in key G!!). Or On Broadway.






              share|improve this answer






















              • The F chord at the end has an A in the top, so it's a full on F major chord.
                – trlkly
                Aug 27 at 20:42














              up vote
              8
              down vote













              They just do! But for some theory behind, it's entirely possible to mix in a parallel key. So here, the Eb/Bb (certainly not D#/A#!!) is from C minor. And yes, it could be written as C5 Eb5 F5. There are those amongst us who would argue they're not 'chords', but that's for another post...



              It could equally be in F, as those three chords also feature in that key.



              That sequence was used a fair bit in the '60s - Knock on Wood comes straight to mind.I - bIII - IV. Or, thinking in F, I - bVII, You Really Got Me. (Although that's nearly in key G!!). Or On Broadway.






              share|improve this answer






















              • The F chord at the end has an A in the top, so it's a full on F major chord.
                – trlkly
                Aug 27 at 20:42












              up vote
              8
              down vote










              up vote
              8
              down vote









              They just do! But for some theory behind, it's entirely possible to mix in a parallel key. So here, the Eb/Bb (certainly not D#/A#!!) is from C minor. And yes, it could be written as C5 Eb5 F5. There are those amongst us who would argue they're not 'chords', but that's for another post...



              It could equally be in F, as those three chords also feature in that key.



              That sequence was used a fair bit in the '60s - Knock on Wood comes straight to mind.I - bIII - IV. Or, thinking in F, I - bVII, You Really Got Me. (Although that's nearly in key G!!). Or On Broadway.






              share|improve this answer














              They just do! But for some theory behind, it's entirely possible to mix in a parallel key. So here, the Eb/Bb (certainly not D#/A#!!) is from C minor. And yes, it could be written as C5 Eb5 F5. There are those amongst us who would argue they're not 'chords', but that's for another post...



              It could equally be in F, as those three chords also feature in that key.



              That sequence was used a fair bit in the '60s - Knock on Wood comes straight to mind.I - bIII - IV. Or, thinking in F, I - bVII, You Really Got Me. (Although that's nearly in key G!!). Or On Broadway.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited Aug 27 at 17:58

























              answered Aug 27 at 12:36









              Tim

              88.4k1090225




              88.4k1090225











              • The F chord at the end has an A in the top, so it's a full on F major chord.
                – trlkly
                Aug 27 at 20:42
















              • The F chord at the end has an A in the top, so it's a full on F major chord.
                – trlkly
                Aug 27 at 20:42















              The F chord at the end has an A in the top, so it's a full on F major chord.
              – trlkly
              Aug 27 at 20:42




              The F chord at the end has an A in the top, so it's a full on F major chord.
              – trlkly
              Aug 27 at 20:42










              up vote
              3
              down vote













              I think this could be in the key of C or F, both major or minor, depending on the melody and the rest of the chords, I could think in examples for all cases if needed. In the major case, Eb would be borrowed from the parallel minor key.



              As already said, all notes fit in both C and F minor pentatonics, and power chords over pentatonic scales are an old trick I guess, can't go wrong.






              share|improve this answer
























                up vote
                3
                down vote













                I think this could be in the key of C or F, both major or minor, depending on the melody and the rest of the chords, I could think in examples for all cases if needed. In the major case, Eb would be borrowed from the parallel minor key.



                As already said, all notes fit in both C and F minor pentatonics, and power chords over pentatonic scales are an old trick I guess, can't go wrong.






                share|improve this answer






















                  up vote
                  3
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  3
                  down vote









                  I think this could be in the key of C or F, both major or minor, depending on the melody and the rest of the chords, I could think in examples for all cases if needed. In the major case, Eb would be borrowed from the parallel minor key.



                  As already said, all notes fit in both C and F minor pentatonics, and power chords over pentatonic scales are an old trick I guess, can't go wrong.






                  share|improve this answer












                  I think this could be in the key of C or F, both major or minor, depending on the melody and the rest of the chords, I could think in examples for all cases if needed. In the major case, Eb would be borrowed from the parallel minor key.



                  As already said, all notes fit in both C and F minor pentatonics, and power chords over pentatonic scales are an old trick I guess, can't go wrong.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered Aug 27 at 16:42









                  coconochao

                  81413




                  81413




















                      up vote
                      1
                      down vote













                      To my ear, it actually just sound like it's in B-flat major, but completely avoids playing the tonic chord, aka B-flat major. Since it avoids the tonic, it creates this feeling of always floating, never being anchored, like the bag in the scene.



                      If this is correct, then the chords would be analyzed as ii IV V, repeating.



                      You can try this out for yourself: end the progression with a B-flat major chord, with the top note also being a B-flat. To me, it sounds like I finally found rest.






                      share|improve this answer
















                      • 3




                        I don't think so since it wants to go back to C5.
                        – foreyez
                        Aug 28 at 12:18







                      • 1




                        It sounds in C to me too. Part of the reason is all the pedal tones on C. No hint of Bb to my ears.
                        – Scott Wallace
                        Aug 28 at 13:52














                      up vote
                      1
                      down vote













                      To my ear, it actually just sound like it's in B-flat major, but completely avoids playing the tonic chord, aka B-flat major. Since it avoids the tonic, it creates this feeling of always floating, never being anchored, like the bag in the scene.



                      If this is correct, then the chords would be analyzed as ii IV V, repeating.



                      You can try this out for yourself: end the progression with a B-flat major chord, with the top note also being a B-flat. To me, it sounds like I finally found rest.






                      share|improve this answer
















                      • 3




                        I don't think so since it wants to go back to C5.
                        – foreyez
                        Aug 28 at 12:18







                      • 1




                        It sounds in C to me too. Part of the reason is all the pedal tones on C. No hint of Bb to my ears.
                        – Scott Wallace
                        Aug 28 at 13:52












                      up vote
                      1
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      1
                      down vote









                      To my ear, it actually just sound like it's in B-flat major, but completely avoids playing the tonic chord, aka B-flat major. Since it avoids the tonic, it creates this feeling of always floating, never being anchored, like the bag in the scene.



                      If this is correct, then the chords would be analyzed as ii IV V, repeating.



                      You can try this out for yourself: end the progression with a B-flat major chord, with the top note also being a B-flat. To me, it sounds like I finally found rest.






                      share|improve this answer












                      To my ear, it actually just sound like it's in B-flat major, but completely avoids playing the tonic chord, aka B-flat major. Since it avoids the tonic, it creates this feeling of always floating, never being anchored, like the bag in the scene.



                      If this is correct, then the chords would be analyzed as ii IV V, repeating.



                      You can try this out for yourself: end the progression with a B-flat major chord, with the top note also being a B-flat. To me, it sounds like I finally found rest.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered Aug 27 at 20:46









                      trlkly

                      31717




                      31717







                      • 3




                        I don't think so since it wants to go back to C5.
                        – foreyez
                        Aug 28 at 12:18







                      • 1




                        It sounds in C to me too. Part of the reason is all the pedal tones on C. No hint of Bb to my ears.
                        – Scott Wallace
                        Aug 28 at 13:52












                      • 3




                        I don't think so since it wants to go back to C5.
                        – foreyez
                        Aug 28 at 12:18







                      • 1




                        It sounds in C to me too. Part of the reason is all the pedal tones on C. No hint of Bb to my ears.
                        – Scott Wallace
                        Aug 28 at 13:52







                      3




                      3




                      I don't think so since it wants to go back to C5.
                      – foreyez
                      Aug 28 at 12:18





                      I don't think so since it wants to go back to C5.
                      – foreyez
                      Aug 28 at 12:18





                      1




                      1




                      It sounds in C to me too. Part of the reason is all the pedal tones on C. No hint of Bb to my ears.
                      – Scott Wallace
                      Aug 28 at 13:52




                      It sounds in C to me too. Part of the reason is all the pedal tones on C. No hint of Bb to my ears.
                      – Scott Wallace
                      Aug 28 at 13:52










                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote













                      To me it doesn't sound like functional harmony, it sounds like pentatonic music with a weak key center in C. If it was functional harmony in the major-minor system, then we would expect at some point to get a V-i, and the V chord would have a B natural in it. That never happens. Since our ears are attuned to functional harmony, the lack of functional harmony makes it sound enigmatic. That works because the point of the scene is to get across something mysterious and ineffable.






                      share|improve this answer
























                        up vote
                        0
                        down vote













                        To me it doesn't sound like functional harmony, it sounds like pentatonic music with a weak key center in C. If it was functional harmony in the major-minor system, then we would expect at some point to get a V-i, and the V chord would have a B natural in it. That never happens. Since our ears are attuned to functional harmony, the lack of functional harmony makes it sound enigmatic. That works because the point of the scene is to get across something mysterious and ineffable.






                        share|improve this answer






















                          up vote
                          0
                          down vote










                          up vote
                          0
                          down vote









                          To me it doesn't sound like functional harmony, it sounds like pentatonic music with a weak key center in C. If it was functional harmony in the major-minor system, then we would expect at some point to get a V-i, and the V chord would have a B natural in it. That never happens. Since our ears are attuned to functional harmony, the lack of functional harmony makes it sound enigmatic. That works because the point of the scene is to get across something mysterious and ineffable.






                          share|improve this answer












                          To me it doesn't sound like functional harmony, it sounds like pentatonic music with a weak key center in C. If it was functional harmony in the major-minor system, then we would expect at some point to get a V-i, and the V chord would have a B natural in it. That never happens. Since our ears are attuned to functional harmony, the lack of functional harmony makes it sound enigmatic. That works because the point of the scene is to get across something mysterious and ineffable.







                          share|improve this answer












                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer










                          answered Aug 27 at 21:24









                          Ben Crowell

                          28017




                          28017



























                               

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